Infiniti G35 vs. Acura TL

pat

Uh, we don't need to get into criticizing a sedan because there has been a recall on certain minivans and SUVs of the same make. If the sedan engines have the same issues, there wouldn't be any reason for the recall to leave them out.

Obviously that recall is not on topic here - let's leave conversation about it to the affected vehicles' discussions.

jpiatchek

Interesting article comparing automatics of the TL, Cad CTS, and G35 sport sedan. Would have been more accurate if they compared a G35 sedan without the sport suspension(suspension and high performance tires). The Tl was at an obvious disadvantage not having the sport suspension package. A better comparison might have been the 6speed with bigger sway bars, bigger brakes and performance summer tires or the A-spec package. The G35 would have still won in the handling department, but the Tl would have most likely finished second(beat by a Caddy-BLAH!) Sad that Acura has not seen fit to equip the automatics with a reasonably priced factory suspension package like for the 6speed. Tests do show considerable improvement in the handling with the 6speed. If they are wanting the play in that market, then there is no reason to not be able to get the upgrade. Do automatic owners want the upgrade option? Check out e-bay. about 25 sets of TL wheels and Turanza tires have been sold by TL owners upgrading to bigger tires and wheels, not to mention what the dealers are doing. I would hope the change is to enhance hadndling and not to just look "cool" I think hundreds of owners have upgraded from their horrible factory Turanza's.I think by the time the year is over, Acura will realize there are lot more people wanting more than styling , nice interior and reasonable handling in the TL and will hopefully make optional suspension modifactions as an option. Eventually they will have to go to RWD.

pg48477

There is a big difference between TL and G35, I don't think any of the TL fans said otherwise. The thing is the difference is in quality of the materials used ( TL way better than G35 in this department), Tl also a FWD and G35 is RWD so two can't be the same. The point is , while one have to drive both vehicle differently due to FWD vs RWD, one can still achieve the same lab times in ether one. I dont' think it means that G35 and TL are the same, you just get the same result (speed and lab times).
Now, if you like driving RWD vehicles it's your choice and it might make you car better for you, but not others.

rich48

I think the verdict is in. Check the sales figures on Autosite for March. The TL is out selling the G35 by a huge margin, almost double. I guess FWD doesn't bother alot of people.

jpiatchek

Comeon RIch. That dog don't hunt. I heard it on every car makes' board. Sales volume doesn't equate to anything. If that were the case, we would all be crazy for not buying a Taurus, Honda, or Camry. I got a TL, too, but give that worn out logic a rest, cause it just doesn't fly! It's not a FWD or RWD thing.

jpiatchek

Yes the quality of material is better in the TL than the G35. Would disagree the The TL would pull the same lap times as the G35, particularly in the automatics. Also, the TL would be much more ticklish to drive at the limit and the driver would work much harder to do it. Tests would seem to bear this out. Still, the TL may be the better all around buy for most drivers, though.

lmacmil

If you throw in coupes, the G35 sales are about the same as the TL. I don't think that's unreasonable because there are a lot of people for whom either (coupe or sedan) would be acceptable. I agree with jpiatchek (finally!) that you can't infer anything about FWD vs RWD preferences from the sales figures.

jpiatchek

Hot dog! Maybe there's hope for us yet! LOL

pg48477

Sales figures will not tell which is better FWD or RWD, it's personal choice and I bet 50% of buyers(both vehicles) either don't know or dont care about this topic. With that said, G35 and TL considered by mojority, including all major Magazines, to be in the same class, and so if TL sells twice as much vehicles it should be a better overall car. Same stands for Camry and Ford Explorer, these two vehicles also best sellers and so should be better overall in their respective categories.

Even if you include coupe, TL still outsells G35 by a big margin.

jpiatchek

Give it up. It ain't so. It's an overused argument and doesn't take into account marketing, dealer network, advertising, snob appeal, styling, incentives, residual ect, ect, ect ,ect. If Nike sells more shoes than Addidas, does that make a better shoe, or does everyone just want to "be like Mike"? And Ford Explorer being better because it sells more? Taurus outsold Honda & Camry for awhile; but a better car? Gimme a break! I've owned 14 Harley Davidson's and they outsell everyone. Doesn't necessarily make it a better bike. I love em but most competitors build beter engineered and faster bikes for less money. Ferrari sells less vehicles than Porsches. Guess that makes Ferrari an inferior vehicle because they sell fewer. I could go on for about another 4 hours, but it's getting late.-----BTW, I guess sales numbers seems to disagree with most every major car mag making the G35 their #1 pick. Hey, I own a TL and love it, but your logic about sales numbers just doesn't fly as to which is best.

jrock65

While I do think sales numbers can be an important indicator, I don't agree that higher sales numbers in the same class necessarily mean that it's a better overall car.

Does this mean that a Camry is better than an Accord just b/c it sells better? I wouldn't say so.

First, there are those factors that jpiatchek mentioned.

Second, never underestimate brand loyalty. A lot of people step up to the TL from an Accord or other Honda/Acura product. And we all know how successful the Accord has been.

I can think of more factors that are swishing around in my head, but I'm too sleepy to put them into words...

danny1878

The question is what makes them sell fewer?
1. You can get G35 cheaper than TL.
2. Infiniti as a company is bigger than Honda(in Japan 2nd after Toyota), so marketing network/advertising is not a big problem for them.
3. incentives/low rate financing doesnt apply in getting the TL.

IMO the majority of people think a car as a total package. Good handling alone doesnt really matter much in real 'normal' world/people if not combined with good exterior/styling, good acceleration, features/technology, comfort, good interior, MPG, resale value, reliability, prestige, crash safety rating.

Both cars are just fine, but more people like 'A' car better than 'I' car bcuz..(fill in the blank)

mariner7

Infiniti is not a company, Nissan is. Their respective sizes in Japan have nothing to do with TL/G35 sales. What matters is the number of Acura/Infiniti dealers, which someone said Acura outnumbers Infiniti by almost 3:1.

G has been out for 3 years, its sales increasing every single year. Let's see TL, which in its first year outsells G sedan/coupe a little bit, do that for 3 years. Let's not forget this is the 3rd gen TL, so it has more brand identity than G.

Anyway I think 3 is G's principal competition. To me, long term it's more important to outsell 3 than TL.

lmacmil

First the 3 month 2004 sales figures from Autosite: TL 18,620, G35 sedan 11,068, G35 coupe 7,019 so G35 total is only about 500 fewer than TL. BMW 3 series combined is 19,000 (15 sedan, 4 coupe) so not that far ahead.

Why one vs the other? I think jpiatchek hit the nail on the head in an earlier post: quality of interior (which is where the driver spends all most of his time) and overall build quality. While the latter could be debated, every knock I've seen on the G35 has been about interior materials quality. Driving differences aside (and "most" of us agree that for "most" drivers, those differences are not noticeable "most" of the time<g>), it wouldn't be too hard to argue that the TL offers better value than the G35.

We really need all the actual G35 and TL owners (not the wannabes like me) to weigh in here: what made you pick one over the other?

jjabbytaylor

I bought a TL because I never felt comfortable in the G35's interior. I also thought the TL's interior was more aesthetically pleasing. It was an added bonus that equipped with the options I wanted, the TL ended up being a little cheaper.

The TL was almost exactly what I wanted; the only thing I would have changed is I would have loved to have had the option for AWD.

I didn't test drive the G35, so I can't compare the two in that respect. However, the TL felt confident enough on the road for my purposes, so I wasn't too worried about it being FWD.

As far as torque steer goes, I have the automatic (my wife refuses to learn how to drive a manual) and I don't find it particularly bothersome.

Jeff

jkg

I purchased the 2004 TL due to the combination of 270 hp, 6 speed manual, Brembo brakes, DVD Audio, current build quality, outstanding service, reputation for minimal maintenance, and the interior having everything located in places that I felt comfortable with, unlike the G-35, which I test drove twice. I test drove 4 TLs before buying from Appletree Acura of Asheville/Fletcher, NC, which I highly recommend due to their professional manner and courtesy.
  I enjoy front-wheel drive, which has definite benefits in heavy rain and snow. I will suggest to Acura National that a 4 wheel drive option on the TL will probably sell well. The 2005 RL will have 4 wheel drive, from the preliminary literature. Will also have about 4 additional inches of truck space or interior passenger space, for those needing more room, but at about $40,000.
  Yes, the front wheel drive can get scary when approaching curves at high speeds, therefore the driver needs to be careful and slow down at times. If you are buying a TL or a G-35 to drive conservative, then possibly another car would better serve you. Either car is outstanding. The TL offers more and for a better price when all added options (for the G-35) are compared.

kahunah

Read My Acura TL 6MT Test Drive, message #237.

Read My G35 6MT Test Drive, message #219.

kahunah

"Yes, the front wheel drive can get scary when approaching curves at high speeds, therefore the driver needs to be careful and slow down at times."

That's common sense advice for any type of car, not just FWD.

billyperks

That's common sense advice for any type of car, not just FWD.

You are absoulutely correct.

If any of these so call RWD experts have been to any Formula One Racing, they know pretty much that the experts take it easy on the corners.
I don't see them throwing their rear axel around corners at 145 mph.

mariner7

And Mike Schumacher drives a FWD F1 car!

TL outsells G35 by 3% YTD. Someone said Acura dealers outnumber Infiniti dealers by 3:1. Let's be conservative and say the ratio is only 2:1. That means an average Infiniti dealer sells about twice as many G as Acura dealer sells TL.

No wonder Infiniti dealers are as hot as any!

chrisboth

"If any of these so call RWD experts have been to any Formula One Racing, they know pretty much that the experts take it easy on the corners.
I don't see them throwing their rear axel around corners at 145 mph. "

This clearly illustrates the gross misunderastanding of how RWD cars are driven by most pro Front drivers. Tendancy to oversteer does not mean the axles are thrown out....If you dont get it fine, but you clearly have little grasp of the driving dynamic RWD offers. Trying to justify that RWD is not really that great in light of the new TL is ludicrious and actually funny.

jrock65

It's a common theme. TL owners tend to minimize FWD while making a huge deal about the G35's interior. G35 owners minimize the G's interior while making a big deal about the TL's lack of RWD.

danny1878

Everybody knows Infiniti is part of Nissan just like Acura part of Honda.

Mariner7, If they are really hot, then they will sell as many as others. Even the old version of TL sold better than G35. So what is it that so hot about? No AC? :-)

I have been searching for that data (how many Infinity dealership vs acura dealership) but found nothing. Someone said they have more Infinity dealers in their area. (hear-say)

Anyway Infinity need some time to catch up with Acura(just hope that Acura will stay put). If TL comes with SH-AWD, it will be more interesting. :-)

mariner7

It'd help if you learn to spell Infiniti.

There's absolutely no doubt there are many more Acura dealers than Infiniti. 2:1, or more, wouldn't surprise me a bit!

And here's why Infiniti dealers are hot. Let's say each G35 and TL make the same profits. And since a dealer sells twice the number of G35 as TL, it'd make twice the profits. And BTW, profit margin for Nissan is higher than Honda, I don't have breakdown by Infiniti/Acura.

kdshapiro

Let's see, about 4,000 3-series convertibles were not accounted for. That brings the total 3-series to 23,000.

danny1878

They sell cheap quality interior, of course they make more profit than any other company. Wouldnt surprise me a bit!

It will take an infinity to make infiniti the infinite one. Why dont they use a different name! lol :-)

Sales figures dont matter but now dealerships matter!

kahunah

"Sources tell the spies that the killer AWD system coming on the 2005 Acura RL (SH-AWD) will be an option on future TL's and TSX's." -- Autospies.com

danny1878

Finally the super handling(SH-AWD) - TL. I love Honda's technology and its innovations.

kdshapiro

It is innovative. To bad they took so long after Infiniti and BMW developed their variable power AWD systems that do the same thing.

chrisboth

Honda innovating AWD - thats a laff. They are the last ones in the game and I cant imagine it gets better than the Porsche and Nissan system of up to 100% RWD. Thats the only AWD system that really makes any sense in a perf car.

AS far as sales supporting the claim that the car is better...ummm NOT. and thank god there are TL's all over and G's are still rare around here.

Success for a platfrom is how to put this into context. Unless you know the variables behind fixed and variable manufacturing costs - you have no idea how sucessful the platform is. Infiniti is selling more than they planned to manufactur so far and with little incentives. I bet they are more successful than they thought they would be. Lets not forget that 1 platform for several models reduces fixed costs and INCREASES profit. The FM platform is singlehandedly bringing Infiniti and Nissan back to the top in sales growth and profit margins and growth...some failure compared to the TL eh?

Some of the arguments here is clearly deranged self justification for buying a TL that is less exclusive and less balanced than the king of the entry sedans - The G.

billyperks

"AS far as sales supporting the claim that the car is better...ummm NOT. and thank god there are TL's all over and G's are still rare around here."

Do you think manufacturers and dealers are in the business to see less of their products on the street? That tells me how much you know about business.

For a car thats been around for three years(the G) and a car thats only been out for several )the TL)months- don't you think we should be seeing more of the product that as been around for the longer period- unless we the people think it's not that good of a product.

That tells me how much the G is really selling.

For a so call "King" I dont think the locals are showing you much respect-I get the feeling that Treason is dominating your Kingdom.

kahunah

Not any more!

You guys have completely misunderstood Acura's new SH-AWD system. When road traction is compromised not only does this system vary the power to the wheels appropriately, as with Infiniti, Audi, BMW, etc. -- it does something that no other drive system in the world does. It also varies power to the wheels based on applied G-forces the car endures, say in a corner turn for example. So, even on clean, dry pavement the system works to maximize performance and handling. In other words...the perfect drive system!

Sorry guys but with this new system, the TL is destined to become THE KING of entry-level sports sedans!!

danny1878

If G is the king why it keeps gunning at BMW? King-kong? :-)

A world&#146;s first, the SH-AWD system combines front-rear torque distribution control with independently regulated torque distribution to the left and right rear wheels to freely distribute the optimum amount of torque to all four wheels in accordance with driving conditions

A World's first = NEW, not just a common AWD, its a killer AWD system. Is it really a laff?

Exclusivity for $30-40k, thats a laff(many people can afford it). Unless the car lacks of something like PT Cruiser, Aztec, reliability, interior quality, performance, luxury etc. If you cant make people buy the product, why bother making it.

BMW 3's are all over and they are the benchmark that Acura and Infiniti are gunning at. The problems is they all wanna be all over, but can they sell more? Whose failure? :-)

Toyota, Honda, Nissan, etc they all say that they sell more than they planned. Can they lie to 'sales figures'? Now sales figure matters?

The next discussion would be about who need super handling.

jrock65

kahunah,

Come on! No one's even driven the SH-AWD RL (except Honda engineers). It might look good on paper, and it may turn out to be as good in the real world, but no one's even tried it yet!

So, no one's driven an SH-AWD car yet, and Honda hasn't even announced when the SH-AWD will be available on the TL, yet it's going to be the King?

Same thing with the active rear suspension of the M. It remains to be seen how that translates in the real world.

Supposedly, the '05 G35 will have an upgraded interior. Something tells me that TL owners will still harp on the car's interior, and G35 owners will still harp on the TL's SH-AWD (whenever that comes out) for being FWD biased. Old habits die hard.

kahunah

We shall see my friend...we shall see...;-)

cheerioboy26

Acura = 260+
Infiniti = 162

http://www.hondanews.com/CatID3002?mid=2003090449776&mime=asc

http://www.infiniti.com/content/0,,cid-34153_sctid-52138,00.html

cheerioboy26

double post when I tried to edit.

jrock65

"We shall see my friend...we shall see...;-)"

Agree with that, we really gotta wait and see.

Personally, I hope that this SH-AWD is as good as its hype. It'll force other companies to innovate as well as keep prices in line.

kdshapiro

"Sorry guys but with this new system, the TL is destined to become THE KING of entry-level sports sedans!!"

Love the hyperbole. The SH-AWD is copying xdrive+DSC. They are using the word force instead of slippage to designate the interference from the electronics.

In another couple of years a Hyundai will have a self-adjusting, torque sensing, completely variable center diff locking AWD system. Unfortunately that's the way of the world.

kahunah

"They are using the word force instead of slippage to designate the interference from the electronics"

I'd better give you some homework for the weekend, so you can better understand this ground-breaking technology.

http://world.honda.com/news/2004/4040401.html

jpiatchek

Wow! Did I get you guys going or what? This is beginning to get fun! Keep your cards and letters and comments coming.

jpiatchek

Well thought out post, I agree 100%. Why do so many TL and G35 owners have to justify that they purchased the best possible vehicle and that it does everything the best and there are no faults.They are both great cars. As a TL owner I get tired of the TL owners particularly that use every type of insane logic to justify that this car is God's gift to the automotive world. It's kind of the old "my Daddy can beat up your Daddy" debate. Anyway, a most enjoyable post.

jpiatchek

Two of your points need further research:---1. G35 is cheaper--Not so, most mags acknowledge that equipped the same way the G35 is several hundred dollars more expensive. 2.---Infiniti is bigger that Honda so Marketing/advertising is not a problem for them.----Danny-you need to check that one out. Infiniti had been acknowledged as almost a joke in the marketing and advertising department--check out the Edmunds Infiniti site. They have flat-out sucked over the years. The Infiniti line came out at the same time as Lexus and Infiniti didn't have a clue on marketing/advertising and Lexus smoked them in sales(and still do) even though the Q45 was thought be many to be a superior automobile. Infiniti has fumbled and bumbled and not known what they've wanted to be from day one. They are still not much better. Again, do your research and you will find that this is correct.---BTW, if Acura has 2 or 3 as many dealers as Infiniti, but only outsells them by a little, wouldn't that make the G35 twice as good---in your form of logic?

engineerboss

It looks like a great concept in theory, however, the unit is very compact with many moving parts and electromagnets that induce heat, that will increase with aggressive driving and frequent turning. All this makes me skeptical of the reliability of the unit. I don't think I'll be running to buy one right away. Let's wait and see. I remember the great GM flop of the 4-6-8 engine concept used in the Cady.

jpiatchek

Good well thought out post. I agree.

pg48477

If sales does not matter why are you trying to justify poor sales number of G35, by throwing in number of dealerships? You can not include G35 coupe, and so TL outsells G35 2:1. If you include G coupe why not include TSX and RSX?

Shapiro, SH-AWD is nothing like X drive. Nobody even drove it yet and but you already know everything. Nice Huyndai example, have not seen that from you for a while:)

kdshapiro

Okay, this is ot to the thread, but this is a quote about xdrive from the website. No matter what words are used in the press releases of the respective companies, the net result is the same.

"xDrive adds revolutionary intelligence to the BMW performance arsenal. Under the most challenging condition, xDrive delivers variable power to individual wheels, providing tenacious grip and optimum traction. In all conditions, xDrive enhances driving dynamics to extract maximum exhilaration from tight curves and winding roads. The result is remarkably agile handling on any road, in any weather"

It can't deliver variable power unless there is some mechanism to sense the load.Call it what you want, but is still appears Honda is fashionably late to the party. I can attest to the fact that it works as advertised as I've flogged an X3 on a snow/ice packed empty parking lot.

The Atessa system in the G35 works slightly differently I believe. But maybe Chrisboth can post more info.

pg48477

Xdrive is virtually the same as any AWD system, it gives more torque to the wheel with more traction, similar to the system subaru using for many years. G35 does work differently buy just adjusting power from front to rear. AH-AWD is totally different system, using clutches to transfer power to one side of the vehicle, depending on the g force. I don't want to argue with you, just go to hondanews.com.

jpiatchek

Who says G35 sales are poor? No one is trying to justify anything but you. Are you saying that having at least twice as many dealerships should not make a difference? If you don't have a dealer nearby it's not going to make any difference at all?------ Your logic is something. The TL,TSX & RSX are different vehicles. THe G35 is the G35 is the G35 whether it be 2 door or 4 door. Gimme a break.

kdshapiro

"I don't want to argue with you, just go to hondanews.com."

This isn't the place anyway. There is a RWD/AWD/FWD forum for that.