The Future of Hybrid Technology

stevedebi

Too bad they don't post separate stats for California, cause it ain't happening here... Except maybe in San Francisco? Too much hollywood $$ down here.

Ironically enough, for the rich, the more gas costs, the more prestige there is in having a really large vehicle. It sets them apart from the "common man", who can't afford the gas.

yerth10

I guess hollywood stars are driving a lot of Prius.

Soon they will be driving RX400h. They can show both their Green-back ($) and Green-color.

yerth10

It sets them apart from the "common man", who can't afford the gas.

Thats true. That is why the common man should soon jump into Plugin as the electricity (being generic) will alway be cheaper.

yerth10

So the week ends with Oil & Gasoline prices setting records with a bleak future posted for the Auto industry.

One way to increase mpg & sales is to sell hybrid vehicles (mild, partial, full), other way may be to reduce the weight, size & cost.

Also the CUV's, Hatchbacks, Wagons should be shown by their true size of cargo & class.
Its weird to say Scion-xA as a sub-compact vehicle when its cargo capacity equals that of a mid-size sedan. Similarly Malibu-Maxx wagon has same size as full size sedan.

The sizes like Full, Family, Mid, Compact, Sub-Compact is confused by different automakers using different standards. Probably there should be a new size classification for all vehicles. Based on passenger volume & cargo volume, sizes should be given on 1-10 scale with 10 (highest) and 1 (lowest).

If something is not done, all automakers may land in trouble.

railroadjames

Everyone around this forum seems to talk about SUV's as if they've been a mainstay of transportation for ever. Well think again. They have evolved from Trucks & Station Wagons and incorperating 4WD. Yes they were and are useful by design BUT... So comes the hybrids with several improvments and great MPG's. Times change and so do gas prices. This (to me) makes for the "new evolvment" that comes with hybrids. We all know that the world's consumption of oil is getting shakey. We always wait till the last minute b/4 we react to the critical situation. DEMAND GREATER THAN SUPPLY.
I've heard many naysayers put down the hybrids and I find it amusing that a car that gets so much recognition and praise can catch so much heat. The Prius is styish, smart, and highly economical. It is backed by one of the best warrantees in the business. My dealer has been exemplary in service and customer satisfaction.
Last point... Cars are so much of the American Institution that we forget that they are still "just transportation" of course we can't have it generic. It has to say more than that. Or Does It?
Culliganman(Green Is Smart)

yerth10

Every time I change my TV to some Cooking channel, I see something about the low-carb. Since lot of Americans have become obese, they are eating low-carb & low-cholestrol food to reduce their weight.

The same should be done to American vehicles which has gained some much iron in it. This will also reduce the nations Oil Bill. Automakers need not design a new vehicle for this. Already there are lots of compact functional vehicles being sold in Europe/Asia. All they have to do is to take that design and manufacture here.

gagrice

One way to increase mpg & sales is to sell hybrid vehicles (mild, partial, full), other way may be to reduce the weight, size & cost.

I'm all for increasing mileage. So far they have not been successful in building a car that gets better mileage without negating that mileage with a much more expensive car. Where is the economy there? Only one hybrid is really very popular the Prius. I think it has reached it's peak of popularity, with cars sitting on dealer's lots for days with no action.

With the gas price spike still far below the late 1970s it is not a big deal to most drivers. It would be a good time to buy a Suburban with big rebates. You can get a full blown Suburban for $15k less than the new RX400h. You will have a much more useful vehicle. Rides better, hauls more inside and towing, carries more people, no off-road issues. That $15k in savings would pay the Suburban gas bill for me the next 12 years. Without all the unknown repair costs that the hybrid owners are facing.

rfruth

We need to think (as opposed to drill) our way out of this one, GM makes some good vehicles the Maxx and Vibe come to mind and some need a `burb (I don't expect to see a Vibe with ladders and paint supplies strapped to it) but a Suburban is truly a SUV (silly urban vehicle) so the future of hybrids is bright.

gagrice

a Suburban is truly a SUV (silly urban vehicle) so the future of hybrids is bright.

I find the Suburban extremely useful. I put 3400 miles on it last year. So I polluted about the same as someone driving a Prius 10k miles. I could not haul many trees or pull my 5x8 utility trailer over the 2.5 miles of bad road to the landfill with any of the hybrids except the new GM hybrid trucks. I don't see much advantage to them mileage wise. Hybrids have a long way to go before they are worthwhile for mainstream drivers.

larsb

quote gagrice-"Hybrids have a long way to go before they are worthwhile for mainstream drivers."-end quote

What is a "mainstream driver" and what can a hybrid not do for that driver? You mean a commuter (Insight/HCH/Prius)? Or someone who needs 7 seats (Highlander coming very soon)? Or a contractor who needs to carry power around with him (Chevy Silverado Hybrid)? Or a family of five who needs a family car (Prius/HAH/Escape)? How about a family of five who wants a FAST family car (HAH)? How about a family who needs a luxury Crossover (rx400h)? How about a person who wants a rear drive luxury sedan (Lexus gs450h, introduced next week)?

You see, there is ALMOST a hybrid for every use ALREADY, and think about the 5-10 more coming out in the next 3 years (Mercury Mariner, Nissan Altima, et al.)

In less than five years there will be a Hybrid available for darn near every use on the road for ANY "mainstream driver." Except maybe the largest beast SUVs....

nvbanker

"Hmmm, it is already over $2.50 here in California (has been at a lot of stations for several weeks). No sign of the rich folk getting rid of their monster SUVs... "

That might be because on an inflation adjusted basis, gas would have to be $4.00 a gallon today, to cost as much as it did in 1980. So, it's still pretty affordable really, and we're not squeaking - we're driving according to our means, a Focus if we can afford $20 a tankful, an Expedition if we can afford $50.

gagrice

Soon they will be driving RX400h. They can show both their Green-back ($) and Green-color.

I doubt it. The RX400h looks like all the other Japanese wannabe SUV/CUVs. The Prius stands out in the crowd. It says look at me. The RX is very common looking, as Faberge eggs go.

gagrice

we're driving according to our means, a Focus if we can afford $20 a tankful, an Expedition if we can afford $50

That is exactly right. No one in his right mind would give up a 35 mpg Focus to gain 15 mpg with a $30k Prius. Remember the average Prius driver makes over $100k per year. He could care less about the cost of gas. He is in it for the Green Glory and being different. If they sell a bunch of Pri'i what will happen is all the movie star wannabes will dump them and find something that gets them noticed, like a Hummer2. DeCaprio doesn't care how much gas costs. And if his Prius craps out on the LA freeway He calls his Limo driver to pick him up.

rfruth

Hey gagrice hauling a trailer over 2.5 miles of bad road is a good example of putting a Suburban thru its paces but why buy new when a 2 or 3 year old cream puff can be had for a song ? Bet the 400h will be snapped up though part cause its the latest-n-greatest has the hybrid badge and all that.

gagrice

Bet the 400h will be snapped up though part cause its the latest-n-greatest has the hybrid badge and all that.

Not a doubt in my mind. Lexus owners are so loyal that Lexus could put a toilet on wheels and sell them. Or in this case a Faberge egg.

PS
My Suburban is a pleasure to own and drive. I could get by with a smaller vehicle. Have not found one I like. None of the hybrids are up to what I use a vehicle for.

railroadjames

Visit any junk yard and see what you find...Focuses are there in numbers. As for 1st & 2nd gen. Priuses...don't hold your breath. A rare find. There just is not the quality in the camparison.
As to your constant referring to the average income....thats just hot air. I make less than 53K and my Prius cost less than 21K.(a far cry from the 30K you keep referring to). As to "green glory"...another empty line of nonsense. We really DO like getting 50+ mpg's. The Car sells itself. Fact is many of the hybrids are moving up the attention factor in the public's eye. Change is happening and all the naysayers are running on empty with gas going up & up. We all know what it costs to fill up your gas hog and I know I've yet to crack $19.00 bucks.
Culliganman(like a volcano..gas has erupted)$2.29

gagrice

there will be a Hybrid available for darn near every use on the road for ANY "mainstream driver."

You left out the 2.5 million drivers that bought full size PU trucks last year. GM is limiting their hybrid production to a couple thousand per year. None of the hybrid vehicles on the horizon satisfy that need. How about a midsize PU truck, no one has one of those slated for the next year or so. That is close to another million vehicles. The truth is none of the PU manufacturers want to cut into the fat profits they make on PU trucks. Toyota is building another PU factory with no mention of a hybrid PU. The truth is they are not even on the average person's mind. How often do hybrid subjects make the most active list here on Edmund's. I don't believe we were on there since they blocked the hybrid vs diesel thread. No one cares about hybrids and new technology except a couple dozen of us diehard car junkies.

PS
Resale of hybrids is no longer an unknown. A dealer in your area is selling a bunch of them at below wholesale trade-in prices. He has 14 HCH 2004 models with low mileage for less than dealer blue book trade-in.

http://www.evrental.com/ResaleVehicles/

jprice

I could not haul many trees or pull my 5x8 utility trailer over the 2.5 miles of bad road to the landfill with any of the hybrids except the new GM hybrid trucks. ... Hybrids have a long way to go before they are worthwhile for mainstream drivers.


How many mainstream drivers haul trees? In fact, how many mainstream drivers drivers need 4W drive capability at all? (Sure, there are those that do; but there are a lot of SUV's that get most of their use by wives picking up groceries or school kids.) For the majority of working people, (certainly in the city), commuting in a hybrid makes lots more sense than driving a barge.

jprice SoCal '05 Silver, #1, 3000 miles, [non-permissible content removed]. mileage 46.5MPG

kernick

you: How many mainstream drivers haul trees?

me: well out of the few people here, there's 2 confirmed, as I do. I haven't had to buy 1,000 gal of oil / year for the last few years because of it. So my Silverado provides more renewable energy than it burns in gas in a year.

you: In fact, how many mainstream drivers drivers need 4W drive capability at all?

me: well here in N.E. we've had several storms this winter over a foot of snow, and it is very useful. Most families either have a PU, SUV, or Subaru Outback. There are a lot of people who need to get to work no matter what the weather is like. More traction is better than less.

you: For the majority of working people, (certainly in the city), commuting in a hybrid makes lots more sense than driving a barge.

me: Agree. But if you live in the city there is public transportation. Where I live and many other Americans there is no public transportation.

you: jprice SoCal '05 Silver, #1, 3000 miles, [non-permissible content removed]. mileage 46.5MPG

me: and the new Chinese mtorists thank you for saving fuel for them to burn.

misterme

Someone said pickup truck?

Toyota has recently displayed a new FTX full-size hybird V8 pickup truck, hopefully be released soon.

Haul trees or other large cargo?
The need is far and inbetween for us but that's what the Grand Caravan is for. FE is up 7MPG on it as well.
We'll be selling it in a couple of years and might replace it with Prius.
For the few times we need to move cargo I'll just rent. Renting can be very cheap. Home Depo will rent you a short flatbed truck for $15/hr.

gagrice

In fact, how many mainstream drivers need 4W drive capability at all?

It is not only 4WD capability, it is the use of a PU truck. There are no hybrid PU trucks available to the 3.5 million drivers that bought PU trucks in 2004. None are slated for the near future. I think you will see an influx of economical diesel PU trucks long before any hybrids are made available.

PS
I agree that commuting in a hybrid makes sense. There are many great deals on the premier commuting vehicle the Honda Insight. Unless you haul 3 people to work daily.

jprice

Kernick:
you: In fact, how many mainstream drivers need 4W drive capability at all?

me: well here in N.E. we've had several storms this winter over a foot of snow, and it is very useful. Most families either have a PU, SUV, or Subaru Outback. There are a lot of people who need to get to work no matter what the weather is like. More traction is better than less.
... But if you live in the city there is public transportation.

I had forgotten the utility of 4WD in snow conditions. Can't argue with that. I was partially blinded in my response by my location in Southern California, where snow is scarce on the flatland (though I used to drive to Mammoth Mountain frequently in the winter to ski.)

But on the other hand, public transportation is nearly useless in L.A. Not at all like N.Y. or S.F.

Gagrice:

In fact, how many mainstream drivers need 4W drive capability at all?

It is not only 4WD capability, it is the use of a PU truck.

Also a valid point. In fact, my other car is a 1989 Toyota PU (which is very rarely used since I got the Prius. It only gets about 20 MPG.) - it is very useful if one of the kids needs help with small moving jobs, and in a pinch, I can loan them wheels while their car's in the shop. The car that the Prius replaced was a '90 Corolla GTS; it had been my wife's car, and used to get 32 MPG. With 140K on it, it was down to only 28 MPG and upkeep was getting expensive. Since she passed away over 5 years ago, I had been driving it, but finally jumped for a Prius. The GTS was donated to the Boy Scouts, and I don't miss it.

Still, I maintain that most of the SUV's seen in the city (4WD or not), are not commonly used near their design capabilities, and are simply transportation overkill.

I apologize if I offended the people who have a legitimate use for such heavy duty vehicles. That was not my intent.

kernick

you: But on the other hand, public transportation is nearly useless in L.A. Not at all like N.Y. or S.F.

me: I don't know much about L.A. or how it differs from S.F. having only spent a few days in each. But I would think there's a much better vehicle for a city than a Prius or HCH. A Segway. http://www.segway.com/segway/

Since I hear there is so much congestion on your roads, I'd guess that a Segway could go just as fast , or faster, than a car. It does much better on mileage (energy per mile travelled) than a hybrid car. And since they are so small, there would be no congestion. You could take the existing lanes and double or triple them. Make it so you use bus, subway, train, Segway, bicycle or walk in the cities. Have bikes and Segways that you can rent by the hour or day. The only regular vehicles you'd have are delivery trucks, and set the speed limit to 25mph, with a $2500 fine or so for breaking it so they wouldn't speed.

Buying Segways would help the U.S. economy rather than shipping money overseas. If you want to see gas and all energy prices go higher keep buying foreign goods, and watch the dollar devalue some more. The 50% devaluation of the last years has contributed about 50% to the oil price increase we're seeing. Oil hasn't increased much in Europe or many parts of Asia because their currency is strong.

nvbanker

"Visit any junk yard and see what you find...Focuses are there in numbers. As for 1st & 2nd gen. Priuses...don't hold your breath. A rare find."

You don't think that may have anything to do with the hundreds of thousands of Foci that have been produced vs. the hundreds of Priui that have been produced so far, do you?

railroadjames

Yes, I get your point, but my point shouild be well taken that Toyota Prius cars have shown to be long lasting and durable. Two cars that I've noticed showing a lack of quality and durability are the "Neon" & "Focus". I'd like nothing better than to praise and buy an American car that could stand the comparitive tests of my Prius. Don't hold your breath.
If I didn't go with the Prius I would have probably bought a Nissan Altima.(a real head turner)
Culliganman(Prius IS the answer to the "all around car")

yerth10

The economic experts / analysts keep saying that Oil should sell at $ 80/barrel to equal the early 1980's price if we take inflation into account.

But in early 1980's, there were no SUV's (except few million Jeeps & Landrovers).
So at $ 80/barrel, should we get rid of SUV's or what do they mean.

BTW, the big sale of P/U is at the expense of SUV's. The days ahead will show.

yerth10

We can buy a Suburban for $ 15K less, but at $2.1/gallon, we have to pay around $31K for gas and who is going to foot the bill.

For RX400h, it may cost $11,500 (premium gas at $2.3/gallon). Straight away we can save
31,500 - 11,500 = 20,000 with RX400h.

America is not a nation of carpenters/gardeners. Only a few need to carry the ladder/tree around.

Or the sub owner should drive only 3400 miles/year. Then sub will be meaninful.

Automakers give warranty only on their vehicle, not for the gas prices. May be if they are asked to pay, then they will sell hybrid vehicles.

kernick

First you can compare a Suburban to an RX400h, but if you wanted to compare similarly sized vehicles, you would choose a Trailblazer for the comparision to the Lexus. You might as well compare a HCH to a Toyota Avalon.

Second mpg - a 4wd Suburban gets 14/18 so on average 16mpg. $31,500/$2.10 x16 = 240,000 miles the Suburban would travel. You're saying the Lexus RX400 could do the same for $11,500? Let's see - premium at $2.30/gal.

$11,500/$2.30 = 5000 gal. 240,000miles / 5000 gal = 48 mpg. Is that what you think the Lexus RX400 is going to be EPA rated at?

Looks like straight away, you need to check your assumptions.

And I think people use SUV's and PU's a lot more than they use all that engine capability of cars that can go over 100mph. Are we a nation of racers?

yerth10

Ok, at 16 MPG for Sub
150,000 miles / 16 * $2.1 = $ 19,687

at 30 MPG for RX400h
150,000 miles / 30 * $2.3 = $ 11,500

So 19,687 - 11,500 = $ 8,187 fuel savings with RX400h.

First of all, I really doubt whether Sub will give 16 MPG, according to edmunds data, Trailblazer (4594 lbs & v6 engine) gives 15 / 20 MPG
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2005/chevrolet/trailblazer/100396672/specs.html?tid=edmunds.n.r- esearchlanding.leftsidenav..8.Chevrolet**

How come a Sub (7200 lbs & v8 engine) gives 14 / 18 MPG. Something seriously wrong.
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2005/chevrolet/suburban/100392977/specs.html?tid=edmunds.n.rese- archlanding.leftsidenav..8.Chevrolet**

Anyway, so is the Sub always going to cost only 35K (with huge discounts). GM will suffer even bigger losses.

Also, it was some other person who compared RX400h to Sub.

BTW, Sub also needs bigger garage which will add the cost.

gagrice

at 30 MPG for RX400h
150,000 miles / 30 * $2.3 = $ 11,500

I think that is very optimistic conjecture. I would say the average person would be lucky to get 24 mpg with the RX400h. The much lighter lower powered Escape HSD with a 4 cylinder is only getting 27 mpg. Premium in my area is at least 30 cents per gallon more than regular. Which brings your gas cost to $15,000 which is only about a $5k savings over the much more capable Suburban. After 30 years when you have recouped your difference in cost you still have a Lexus wannabe SUV that is not all that useful as anything more than a car. You would be better off getting a hybrid car that gets good mileage.

yerth10

If RX400h gives 24 in real world, then Sub will give only 10.
After all my Olds Sedan (V6) gives only 16 in combined city/hwy.

At 10 MPG, it will cost 31,500 for Sub and for
RX400h 150000/24*2.3 = 14,375
which is still a difference of $17,125.

We have to take EPA mileage for both or Real World mileage.

yerth10

http://www.autoshowny.com/vehicle/gallery.shtml?altfuel-2004

Saturn Hybrid is shown in NY Auto Show. May be GM is planning to bring it earlier. Now GM is expanding its CUV lineup. Finally they are getting the message about high gas prices.

gagrice

We have to take EPA mileage for both or Real World mileage.

That is the fallacy with the EPA ratings. They are not close for many hybrids. I find them right on for my Suburban of 7 years and 48k miles. I get 14 around town and 17-18 on trips. It is not likely the RX400h will get close to combined 30 mpg plus having to use Premium gas is a real pain. You are trying to make the mileage what you want, to justify the car. If you like it buy it. Just don't complain when it is not close to what you expected mileage wise.

larsb

But the known faults of the EPA testing should not be blamed on the Hybrids, nor should it lessen their appeal !!

The advantage of the hybrids is that ANYONE CAN with proper driving techniques EXCEED EPA estimates, by a LOT in some cases. Non-hybrid cars which do not have the proper instrumentation have a much harder time beating EPA estimates.

I posted an article from a few months ago from some agency which tested many many cars, and the hybrids were NOT the cars who were farthest from EPA estimates.

I'll see if I can find that article again....found it. Quoting from the AAA article:

"These driving tests found dozens of examples where vehicle miles per gallon of 2003 and 2004 model years were overestimated because of outdated 30-year-old EPA tests. The current EPA tests were established in the late 1970s and do not take into account higher speed limits on many interstates and increased congestion nationwide. The tests are even conducted with the air conditioner off. "

http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20050- - 303005230&newsLang=en

Notice that the only listed Hybrid, the Insight, made 89% of EPA, better than MANY non-hybrid gasoline cars and trucks.

gagrice

But the known faults of the EPA testing should not be blamed on the Hybrids, nor should it lessen their appeal !!

That is their appeal good mileage. If you buy a car for that reason alone and it is way off, you are rightly upset. Blame it on the EPA or whoever, it is a fact that the hybrids are not in general living up to the EPA ratings. The same would go if I bought a vehicle to go 0-60 in 6 seconds and it took 10 seconds I would feel cheated. We should get what is advertised that we will get from our purchases. I realize that they put disclaimers, that does not make it right. Only two of the 5 hybrids are even close to EPA ratings. Truth in advertising is all I want. It is not the case with the cars and especially hybrids. The higher gas prices get the more critical people will get about misleading information on the cars they buy. That is the main reason I have not sold my Suburban and bought a smaller PU they just don't deliver the mileage I want. No reason to spend the money.

renco

Saw this the other day, is this true?

"You could do more for the environment if you were to purchase $3,000 worth of trees and have them planted in the rain forest."

http://www.autoweb.com/content/shared/articles/templates/index.cfm/article_id_int/366

kernick

you: The current EPA tests were established in the late 1970s and do not take into account higher speed limits on many interstates and increased congestion nationwide.

me: I agree that congestion is terrible for mpg. But don't necessarily think that all vehicles do poorly at highway speeds. Our X-Cab Silverado gets close to 20mpg at 70mph, I had a '98 V-6 5-speed Camaro that got 35 mpg highway, and my '01 V-8 AT Firebird gets 28mpg highway. Gobbling up miles at 70-75mph while turning 2,000 rpm or so wil give you very good mpg. These numbers are better than EPA.

I had a thought today, about how I mentioned hybrids are such a small effect because of the 230M existing vehicles, and how long it would take to replace them at current hybrid production rates. I wonder how feasible it is to convert existing cars to a hybrid system. I wouldn't mind a 50hp motor at each of the front wheels on my Firebird. :-)

nvbanker

"Yes, I get your point, but my point shouild be well taken that Toyota Prius cars have shown to be long lasting and durable."

I'm not sure you do get my point. The Prius hasn't been around more than about a year, so we don't know if it will last with that hybrid drive or not. Toyotas are well known for their durability, no question, but the hybrid drive may be as durable as an Oldsmobile Diesel for all we know at this point. We just don't know yet. That's my point. If anybody can make it right, it would be Toyota or Ford. I wouldn't trust anybody else to do it. And I disagree with your assessment on the Focus - it is a very durable little car.

PF_Flyer

Even though it's the Mazda chat, all topics are welcome for discussion at the chats since we're not as strictly topic oriented as we are here in the forums. So stop by and we can discuss hybrids as well!

PF Flyer
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tempusvn

"Prius hasn't been around more than about a year, so we don't know if it will last with that hybrid drive or not."

Actually, the Prius has been around since 1997 and has proven to be remarkably reliable. Much better than average.

larsb

Toyota's new "Harrier Hybrid" (lexus rx400h)- not much info but the paint job looks AWESOME !!!

http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0503/22/autos-125088.htm

yerth10

http://www.greencarcongress.com

Toyota launched the hybrid versions of its Kluger and Harrier SUVs today in Japan.

So 180,000 Prius + 62,000 SUVs will give a total of 242,000 Hybrid Vehicles.
Looks like they are getting enough battery supplies now and also demand is going
up along with rising gas prices.

The article also says
all-new high-speed electric motor that operates at twice the speed and delivers more than twice the power as the motor used in the four-cylinder Prius.

So they have improved the motor to extract more juice.

yerth10

In post #873, you are saying
average person would be lucky to get 24 mpg with the RX400h.

But in post #876, you are saying
I get 14 around town and 17-18 on trips.

Why is it that you are taking average for RX400h and yourself for Sub.
If you are an expert driver who can get 14 in Sub, probably you will be getting
34 in RX400h
64 in Prius
94 in Insight.
I keep repeating that only at 150,000 miles, you get the ROI. For a person who drives less, definitely the Hybrid is not a good car unless he/she is environment / tech conscious.

larsb

These reasons are why hybrids are having a hard time.....the "general public" is just SO MISINFORMED !!!!!!!!! GGGRRR !!!!!!!!!!

Here are some quotes from the story link below.

Here is a guy who thinks hybrids cost twice as much as comparable cars:

"We drove the Toyota and Honda models. We couldn't quite justify paying twice the purchase price for the sake of an extra 20 miles per gallon. That's the other item at the top of the list-purchase price."

Here's another who must not have understood that the story was talking about $3.75 gas:

"I can't afford to buy a new vehicle, and hybrids are still too new and too costly to compensate for the minimal savings on fuel," wrote ... of Janesville."

At $3.75 a gallon, his hybrid would likely pay for the cost difference in less than four years !!

Here's another who is balking at SAVING $700 a year in fuel costs:

""If gasoline reached $4 a gallon, and I had a vehicle that made 40 miles per gallon, I might save $700 a year. But even then, how long would it take to pay for the vehicle?" wrote ... of Janesville."

Here's another who obviously does not know that new 2005 Honda Civic hybrids can be purchased for about $18,500:

"They simply charge too much for them," wrote Garrick Kautz of Janesville. "The savings in gas would not compare to the cost of the vehicle. Just like solar panels and wind generators-great idea, but manufacturers are charging too much for the technology."

With attitudes and misconceptions like this, hybrids (and hybrid advocates like me) have a long way to go to get the correct info out to people !!! GGGGRRRRRRRRR!!!!

http://www.gazetteextra.com/gasprices032105.asp

gagrice

Why is it that you are taking average for RX400h and yourself for Sub.

The average for the RX400h is not established. The average for the Suburban is established. I work with two guys that have or had Suburbans. They got the same mileage I do. One sold his and bought an Envoy because his wife wanted something smaller to drive in Long Beach. The Envoy gets about 1 MPG less in town and 3 MPG less on the highway with that new 6 cylinder engine. So your argument will not be valid until the RX400h has proven it can get the EPA or better with the average driver. You also ignore the most obvious aspect of the comparison. Capabilities, the Suburban can do most everything better, except maneuvering in a crowded parking lot. All that for $15k to $20k less. I compare the RX driver to the guy that wears a ten gallon hat and cowboy boots in NYC. A wealthy, fat cat, wannabe SUVer. If you are truly interested in saving the planet buy the Prius or Insight, it makes a lot more sense, than a car that looks like an SUV, and is Not one.

gagrice

hybrids (and hybrid advocates like me) have a long way to go to get the correct info out to people !!!

You are so right. Go to the home page of Edmund's Forum. Look at the top ten threads every day. Over the last year you can count on your one hand the times that a hybrid subject was in the top ten. Car buyers as a whole are NOT interested in new technologies as much as the few of us that hang around this hybrid forum. I keep hoping the automakers come out with a vehicle I can justify buying. Right today the only thing close are the VW TDI Wagons. And my wife says we don't need any new vehicles. We were at her uptown broker's office the other day and a new Prius was parked next to us. I told her what it was and she had one word to describe it "UglY".

I appreciate that you are a one man band for the hybrid technology. I also try to read the flood of information you dig up. I don't think the American public is looking or interested.

larsb

quote gagrice-"Car buyers as a whole are NOT interested in new technologies as much as the few of us that hang around this hybrid forum."-end quote

Attention Non-Hybrid Owners:

Gas prices in Phoenix have gone up 16.5 cents in the last 30 days. I'm getting 52.9 MPG on my current tank.

They *SOON WILL BE* once they see their fuel bills going through the roof !! Go OPEC !!!

quote gagrice-"I appreciate that you are a one man band for the hybrid technology."-end quote

Well, I'm not exactly a one man band, but I do try hard. And I "get" the issue, and that is this: that cars cost enough with the purchase price, so anything you can do to reduce your ongoing maintenance and fuel costs in the short and long run is good for your family and your future and good for America (less dependence on foreign oil and domestic drilling).

(I know, converting a diesel to biodiesel or veggie oil is even BETTER for America, but if you think it's hard convincing people to buy hybrids, and it IS, try and convert people into backyard scientists or McDonalds oil beggars !!!)

yerth10

Look at the top ten threads every day.
There are only 7 models of hybrids compared to 100+ of gasoline models, hence lesser talk.
Still every auto website has atleast 1 article on it.

she had one word to describe it "UglY"
Already Prius has won some design awards and so the haters need not certify its looks.
Also 150,000 + units of this model were sold. Thats enough to show its acceptance.

According to EIA, gas prices have hit $2.1 / gallon and no end in sight.

Look at this article
http://www.cars.com/go/news/Story.jsp;jsessionid=VPNQDMIKUVSKDLAZGKLE2UY?section=news&subj- ect=recent&story=032105storybCT&referer=&aff=national

Subject is "GM Halts Rear-Wheel-Drive Project"
People want only Motor Drive (Hybrid) and not Front / Rear Wheel Drive. Massaging the ICE into Front or Rear does not make sense when gas prices are high.

First they stopped Quadra-Steer, now RW Drive.
Time to get into Hybrids.

yerth10

Initially Toyota said that they will sell
20,000 RX400h &
30,000 Hybrid Highlanders.
That a total of 50,000.
Now they are planning to sell 62,000.
Where did that extra 12,000 come from. Has the order list for both grown up or they are expecting better demand because of rising gas prices.

Also they are opening a plant for Prius in China.

yerth10

Today there are about 800 million vehicles in the World. Let us assume that 7 years ago, probably there could have been 700 million with the # rising by 17 million units every year coming to 802 million by 2004. Some of the hybrid sales figures are approximate. Please correct it if you have the right figure.

Let us estimate the hybrid %age among the vehicle population.



(1) Year
(2) Units (Hybrid)
(3) Cumulative Units (Hybrid)
(4) All Vehicles
(5) %age (3 / 4 * 100)



1998
17,000
17,000
700,000,000
0.002429 %



1999
15,000
32,000
717,000,000
0.004463 %



2000
24,000
56,000
734,000,000
0.007629 %



2001
44,000
100,000
751,000,000
0.013316 %



2002
60,000
160,000
768,000,000
0.020833 %



2003
80,000
240,000
785,000,000
0.030573 %



2004
150,000
390,000
802,000,000
0.048628 %




So Hybrids still constitute only 0.048628 % of the Worldwide vehicle usage. But they have come a considerable way from 0.002429 % in 1998.