The Future of Hybrid Technology

nolanola Member Posts: 1
edited March 2014 in Toyota
While the idea to save fuel & the environment is noble, the current approach methods are too complicated, expensive, impractical... I'm of the "KISS" philosophy myself & the current efforts in this regard don't make it... It would seem the only viable alternative at the moment is hydogen power, but we still have to find a way to make this gas cheap to produce... Given the way things are developing in the Middle East, it would seem prudent to find a way to do this soon...
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Comments

  • daysailerdaysailer Member Posts: 720
    but that is by no means certain and it is not likely to be soon. Hydrogen requires more energy to produce from non combustible sources than is released in hydrogen combustion therefore it is less an alternative to petroleum than an alternative way to use it, unless, of course, we intend to resume deployment of nuclear power plants.

    Decades ago many thought that we would "find a way" to economically increase battery energy density to a point that electric vehicles would become a replacement for petroleum powered vehicles. In 1972, the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers (IEEE) published an article predicting a breakthrough in battery technology by 1980; that EVs would be commonplace by 1985 and that perhaps ALL vehicles would be electric by 2000. Of course that was a "pipe dream" and battery improvements in those 32 years have been incremental, not revolutionary. The pursuit of the EV can now be viewed as the alchemy of the 20th century.

    Will the "hydrogen economy" fare better? perhaps, or perhaps not. In any case we should not count on it without a plan for achievement. Wishing for a miracle is not a good project plan.
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    Full hybrid like HSD Prius are not complicated mechanically. HSD took out alternator, starter, transmission, clutch, torque converter, radiator, and more... If you look at Prius owner's maintenance guide, you will only find oil change, coolant change, and tire rotation until somewhere like 120,000 miles. Then you replace a spark plug. HSD really simplify traditional automobile to Keep It Simple, Stupid. =D

    Dennis
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "The pursuit of the EV can now be viewed as the alchemy of the 20th century"

    EV could soon be a reality with current battery technology. The breakthrough has to come from electric motor. The breakthrough that I am talking about is the Minato Over Unity motor. You can read and view videos about Minato motor here. http://www.japan.com/technology/index.php

    Dennis
  • daysailerdaysailer Member Posts: 720
    and no advancement in motor technology will make a substantial difference in EV success since electric drives are and have long been better than 90% efficient. The most exotic (and costly) batteries have energy and power densities that are orders of magnitude less than gasoline. Differences in conversion and drive efficiencies cannot overcome that.
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    Well, how about an electric motor that uses almost no electricity. Minato also demonstrated to have output greater than input; thus over unity. Minato taps into the power of magnetism. If a magnet is going to loose magnetism over 1,000 years, why not put a good use of it. Let's say, even if Minato's magnet looses it's magnetism faster, say within 100 years or even 10 years, this is still applicable. This can be thought of as a breakthrough in battery since the power is stored as magnetism rather than chemically.

    More info at: http://www.japaninc.net/article.php?articleID=1302&page=1

    Dennis
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "prepetual motion"

    That's what I said, when I heard about it the first time. =D Read the article and watch those videos and come back and give me a response. BTW, he has two US patents. 5594289 and 4751486.

    "I'm sure this will be as impressive as your illumination of how horsepower is not power."

    When did I say horsepower is not power? Stop putting words into my mouth. You are the one who said, a transmission does not multiply horsepower, it only change torque. LOL

    Dennis
  • daysailerdaysailer Member Posts: 720
    a potentially serious discussion that degenerates to one not worthy of response in less than 10 posts. Is that a record?
  • dhanleydhanley Member Posts: 1,531
    Since investors are salivating, i strongly suggest you invest in the system as well.

    "You are the one who said, a transmission does not multiply horsepower, it only change torque. LOL"

    You mean, i reiterated that energy cannot be created or destroyed? I can't imagine why i would say that.

    dave
  • stevedebistevedebi LAMember Posts: 4,098
    They claim to be able to generate more electricity than is used to run the generator; fine. What I want to see is for them to connect the output of the generator to it's input and let it run without any electrical input coming in. It should produce a surplus. Connect it up and run it for a week and I will believe it - if it is done under scientific conditions.

    That a motor might be more efficient is OK; to claim it generates more energy than it uses is indeed "perpetual motion".
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "That a motor might be more efficient is OK; to claim it generates more energy than it uses is indeed "perpetual motion".

    I can't wait to get my hands on on of Minato's fans. Overunity theory and proofs are there. http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/5307/Principles.htm
    Minato motor will be the first mass produced overunity motor, I believe. Another question is, if Minato achieve output greater than input, how long will the magnets last?

    Also, that 7 watts car AC with generator built-in is amazing. If you see the video, I think they are reading volt and amp in reverse order. I hope this one does not turn out like other hoaxes. Since [email protected] magazine covered the story in the front page, I doubt that it is a hoax.

    Dennis
  • stevedebistevedebi LAMember Posts: 4,098
    If this principle worked, every power utility in the world would be using it. Heck, every house would have one and there would be no need for power utilities - every house could produce it's own energy.

    Not to mention electric automobiles...

    Sorry, something doesn't seem right here. The motor may be more efficient, but not to the point where it generates more output than input.
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    Even if it works, how long will the magnets last their magnetism? It takes energy to make magnets so, it is not free energy unless we use magnets dug up from earth. The way I see is as an electric motor with built-in power in a compact unit. The energy storage is within the motor! You'll only need a small battery to jump start the overunity motor.

    Dennis
  • daysailerdaysailer Member Posts: 720
    that P.T. Barnum once made a comment that is appropos to this discussion.
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    Yes, magnets the perpetual motion source of the naive!

    Yes perpetual motion. Like the guy who had a Prius and said it never used the battery becuase it was always charging from MG1.
    However, he forgot that the ICE was actually supplying the power and substaining energy conversion losses.

    Or one other guy, the Atkinsin - Otto ICE guy, who thought that a bigger battery in the Prius would make the MG2 faster and more powerful. Yes perpetual motion at its best.

    You just got to admire the right-side brain people that try to think like and engineer.

    How about a geothermal motor
    or a JetStream pressure density motor or a solar motor that would run during the night.

    Besides friction, energy conversion losses and entrophy there is a "free lunch"

    Wait a minute CD (Coefficient of drag) is the main factor that causes friction and mileage loss, some CDs are as low as .24 to .26 . What if you could get CD to 0.00 or even a negative number. How about a quatum space shift to a parallel universe/ Wait maybe that was a Star Trek episode.

    Magnetic Motors with no friction or conversion loss, Perpetual motion motors.

    Remember ( if you are old enough)the perpetual motion signs in stores use to display advertising in the late 50s and early 60s. They had a permanent magnet and it wnet through a solenod. The cruent would swith on the solenoid just as the permanemt magnet reach the lip of the solenoid, the kinectic energy was enough to pass through the solinoid where it was repelled., then would switch -off and such the magenet back. The display would go fo weks on a single AA battery. Except for friction and energy conversion losses it was a perpetual motion, er I mean a permanent magnet motor machine.

    Perpetual motion, just enough energy to overcome friciton and energy conversion losses.

    YMMV ( Your Magnets May Vary)

    MidCow

    P.s- I s it true that the Hybrids are cuasing the EPA to revise their EPA mileage test?

    P.S.S. If the Prius is rated at 60/51 and the RX400h is rated at 31/36 which is telling the truth and which is lying ,both use HSD.

    P,S,S. - Since the HSD system can only go forward; reverse is electric only. How will towing work on a HSD hybrid when you have to back up nd the hybrid battery is low ??
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "Like the guy who had a Prius and said it never used the battery becuase it was always charging from MG1."

    John's point was that battery got rarely used. He did not say "never". If that is true, why would you need the battery?

    It seems that your favorite way of bashing people is to label them as perpetual motion. All of us are aware of perpetual motion machine and can recognize as well as you are. You seem to think you are better at it than others. By labeling a new technology as perpetual motion, you are ignoring possibility of learning how it actually works. This spells ignorant. The only way to learn new things is to, well, learn new things. Ignoring or dismissing will not do.

    Yes, there are losses in conversion. If there are more to gain than from little loss from conversion, there is overall gain. A simple example is in the transmission. Which would you accelerate from a stop, 1st or 5th gear? Converting torque to RPM increases power delivery depending on the situation. If you label this as a perpetual motion, you are just an ignorant.

    "If the Prius is rated at 60/51 and the RX400h is rated at 31/36 which is telling the truth and which is lying ,both use HSD."

    You are terribly confused. RX400h is estimated at 36/31, city/highway. And it is not EPA numbers as the final production model isn't even out yet.

    "Since the HSD system can only go forward; reverse is electric only. How will towing work on a HSD hybrid when you have to back up nd the hybrid battery is low ??"

    Simply start the engine. ICE starts spinning MG1 and directly power the 50KW MG2.

    Dennis
  • stevedebistevedebi LAMember Posts: 4,098
    I read the sites carefully, and I repeat my statement. Show me the scientific study under controlled conditions that demonstrates more output energy than was input.

    Your example is invalid - the automatic or manual transmission is not producing more energy than is being input. It is changing the gear ratios. The articles listed in the URLs were not scientific and made claims that need to be proven. Perhaps it is just the journalist, but that is not what the article implied.
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "Show me the scientific study under controlled conditions that demonstrates more output energy than was input."

    I am with you as I am dying to find more testing on one of 40,000 Minato fans that will be selling in Japan in a few months. They are suppose to use only 20% of electricity compare to the current Mitsubshi model. Since electric motors are already 90+% efficient already, this will only mean Minato fans are over unity. One thing I want to know is how long those magnets in his fan will last since, most of the work are done by those magents.

    "Your example is invalid "

    That example was given in response to HSD converting electricity to deliver more thrust to the wheel.

    "The articles listed in the URLs were not scientific and made claims that need to be proven."

    Did you see the videos? You'll need to create a free account but it is so worth it. Also don't miss "how it works" column. http://www.japaninc.net/article.php?articleID=1303

    image.

    Dennis
  • stevedebistevedebi LAMember Posts: 4,098
    >>That example was given in response to HSD converting electricity to deliver more thrust to the wheel.<<

    Are you claiming that the HSD is producing more energy than it uses?

    Look, I would have to see a controlled scientific study to consider it. Just because it moves a fan blade more efficiently doesn't mean it puts out more energy than it uses.

    Thanks for the link, however I'd already seen it. I understand the concept, but would need severe proofs before accepting something that perports to be capable of generating more energy than it uses.

    I'm perfectly willing to accept that it is more efficient than a standard motor.
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "Are you claiming that the HSD is producing more energy than it uses?"

    No, no. Don't even go there. :-P I was responding to Midnightcowboy's energy loss MG1 generating electricity. If you would go back and read the whole paragraph, that might clarify up some more.

    "Just because it moves a fan blade more efficiently doesn't mean it puts out more energy than it uses."

    Well, say, Mitsubishi fan uses 25KW with 90% efficiency. 100% efficient fan would only need 22.5KW to do the same job. Minato is claiming that his fan will only need 20% or just 5KW of the electricity to accomplish the same output. This means, there are more output than input. I'll take this news just as a possible breakthrough until further studies are done.

    Dennis
  • stevedebistevedebi LAMember Posts: 4,098
    "Well, say, Mitsubishi fan uses 25KW with 90% efficiency. 100% efficient fan would only need 22.5KW to do the same job. Minato is claiming that his fan will only need 20% or just 5KW of the electricity to accomplish the same output. This means, there are more output than input. I'll take this news just as a possible breakthrough until further studies are done."

    No, this means the fan will use less energy and produce more revolutions. That is not the same as producing more output than was put in; it means it is more efficient than a conventional fan.
  • mistermemisterme Member Posts: 407
    I think hybrid cars are doomed now that they make motors that can power themselves.
    This reminds me of the 1960's Vapor carburator claims that make a 1971 Fleetwood get better than 100MPG going about 65MPG.

    All the production notes, studdies, equipment and prototype were suddenly stolen, and the inventor's body was found next to the black helecopters at Hanger 42 in the deserts of Nevada :-)
    Steve
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    The magnets in the motor might loose magnetism very quickly. It takes electricity to produce magnets. In the end, magnet in the motor becomes the battery that stores electricity as magnetism instead of chemically. All this talk is only valid if Minato's invention works. I don't think @Japan magazine would fall for perpetual motion as it is equivalent to Popular Science magazine over here.

    Dennis
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "That is not the same as producing more output than was put in; it means it is more efficient than a conventional fan."

    Why not? If a 5kw Minato motor is producing the same work as 100% efficient traditional 22.5kw motor, that means Minato motor is 450% efficient. That means overunity.

    Dennis
  • daysailerdaysailer Member Posts: 720
    tha someone has a very active imagination.
  • stevedebistevedebi LAMember Posts: 4,098
    It means the motor is 450% more efficient; it still doesn't mean it puts out more than the energy it receives in.
  • rfruthrfruth Member Posts: 630
    Not exactly the future of hybrids or is it ? - snip - Theory of evolution: hybrid car BY ASHLEY FANTZ To many, it seems an exercise in the obvious: compared with an SUV, a gas-electric hybrid car means less pain at the pumps.
    http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/8814411.htm?1c
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    If 22.5 kw motor is 100% efficient and if there is 100% efficient generator, in theory, you can get back 22.5kw that you put into the motor.

    If a motor is 450% efficient, with 100% efficient generator, the output is 4.5 times the input. It sounds crazy but we will see in a few months when Minato fans are available in Japan.

    Dennis
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    This is right from Honda, EPA & CARB. If you are interested in pollution control and freeing us from the bonds of foriegn oil. Natural gas cars are the future. That includes fuel cells that use natural gas as well to produce energy.
    The Civic GX is also the cleanest internal combustion vehicle ever tested by the federal government as the first and only vehicle certified to the newest Federal Tier II, Bin 2 emission level. Also certified as a Super Ultra Low Emission Vehicle (SULEV) by the California Air Resources Board (CARB), the Civic GX surpasses these two parallel standards and is the only sedan operating at these near-zero levels, available outside of California.

    The 2003 Civic GX was designed to comply with AT PZEV, (Advanced Technology, Partial Zero Emission Vehicle) criterion established by CARB allowing the Civic GX credits toward the California Zero Emission Vehicle mandate. It is recognized as a PZEV by meeting SULEV standards and maintaining its emissions durability for at least 150,000 miles or 15 Years.
  • well_informedwell_informed Member Posts: 34
    #31 of 31 The History of Hybrids by gagrice Jun 19, 2004 (2:50 am)
    This is right from Honda, EPA & CARB. If you are interested in pollution control and freeing us from the bonds of foriegn oil. Natural gas cars are the future.

    Honda is wrong.

    We do not have big nat gas reserves in the States, even Canada and Mexico are not enough to supply us with our current, modest gas needs, much less with the much larger amounts we'l;l need if we have many cng vehicles on the road.

    CNG is NOT for private compact cars, just because you lose half your trunk to the fuel tank. It has Miserable driving range, so forget long trips, and there are not many CNG pumps along our highways.

    CNG cars and trucks DO have many applications, BUT NOT as Private Family cars.

    You can use them in all kinds of City Fleets, taxis, (but remmeber the trunk loss again), Buses, Fedex ups and mail vehicles, Police cars, ambulances, maintenance fleets of utilities,

    that alone is 100,000 's of cars.

    And while we do not have enough nat gas reserves in N America,

    we have HUGE reserves of heavy oil BOTH in Canada (oil sands are currently being intensively developed; Canada has 200 billion barrel reserves if you include the oil sands, onl;y 5 or so if you do not!) and Venezuela (orimulsion). When Oil becomes scarce and expencive, we will develop much more of those. We already are.

    While with Natural gas, you need to import it by ship in expensive LNG form, with even more expensive and unpopular terminals that are sitting ducks for terrorists.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    I will agree that CNG has some problems to overcome. Gas reserves is not one of them. Alaska Arctic has 25 Trillion cubic feet of known reserves. BP has blocked development of the gas because they use it to force the oil out of the ground. They were also a small player in the gas business until recently. The government state & Federal have balked at going across Canada to the midwest for political and supposed security reasons. Our friends in Qatar are sitting on the world's largest known reserve of gas 500+ trillion cubic feet. It is a little more expensive to liquefy and ship than to send through a pipe. We are importing oil that is not as environmentally friendly. I am not sure of the hazards of shipping LNG. I would assume it would dissipate into the air rather than destroy ocean habitat. If it works for buses it will work for cars. If I take a trip that is more than the 200 mile range of the Civic CNG I will drive my Suburban or Lexus anyway. I don't like little cars for long driving trips. Hybrids are an easy fix but a very poor long term solution to the energy and environmental problems. The big hybrids that are due out shortly are not going to be accepted because they are not going to give the mileage gains that people expect. Little tiny hybrids like the Prius and Civic HCH will have an audience for now.
    We were invited to the "Wild Animal Park" for a special promotion last night. It took 1.5 hours to go 20 miles. If the four of us had been in a small car like the Prius, hidden in that sea of SUV's, it would have been unbearable. From where I sit the $2.29 a gallon gas has not even affected the driving public. I would say 75% of the cars out there had one person in them.
  • SylviaSylvia Member Posts: 1,636
    starting a new discussion - please continue the NG posts there.
  • well_informedwell_informed Member Posts: 34
    ""I will agree that CNG has some problems to overcome. Gas reserves is not one of them. Alaska Arctic has 25 Trillion cubic feet of known reserves. ""

    That is a drop in the bucket, compared to russia's 1,600 Trillion, Iran's 975 trillion and Qatar's 925 trilion (these are by far the threre biggest NG proven reserve holders as of 2003, but in the future I expect many new reserves to be found in the Middle East)

    I'd prefer to NOT use our Oil and gas reserves when we can freely buy them in the world markets, but leave them for emergencies like Embargoes (see 1974 oil crisis).

    "" BP has blocked development of the gas because they use it to force the oil out of the ground. ""

    many do. NG is also used to help produce oil from oil sands, and Canada needs to do that, so our considerable nat gas imports from Canada will drop in the future.

    ""Our friends in Qatar are sitting on the world's largest known reserve of gas 500+ trillion cubic feet.""

    They got 925 trillion of proven reserves. But they have scarecly begun producing it. They will expand considerably int he future.

     ""I am not sure of the hazards of shipping LNG. I would assume it would dissipate into the air rather than destroy ocean habitat.""

    I'm not worried about that. People in large cities with ports do not want LNG terminals near them, for fear of explosion due to either accident or Terrorist Attack on the LNG vessel.

    That is why LNG Terminals are heavily guarded in the US

    > If it works for buses it will work for cars. If I take a trip that is more than the 200 mile range of the Civic CNG I will drive my Suburban or Lexus anyway.

    The aptly named Civic is primarily a City car, although it has grown bigger with every new generation every 4 years. The Suburban is an uncomfortable, truck-based SUV. LArge cars with long wheelbases are the best to use for Long distance travel. Such as the 5,000 LB Mercedes S class 92-99, with its 123 in wheelbase.

    Most people cannot have 5 different cars, one for commuting, one for long trips, etc.

    I am perfectly happy with my old Honda Accord Coupe 5-speed both for brisk driving in town and for many long trips on the highway, with its 107 in wheelbase and 17 gallon tank and 550 mile range. I actually wish it had a longer range, sort of like the 800 mile the MB Diesel E class had.

    I only wish I had a sixth gear for the highway at speeds over 70 mpg, when i go over 3,000 RPM with 5th gear.

    Hybrids never caught on in Europe, despite $5.60 (UK) and $5.30 a gallon (Germany) gas prices there. THe solution is Modern Diesels with extra-clean Diesel fuel, but we will get that fuel only in 2006.

    "" From where I sit the $2.29 a gallon gas has not even affected the driving public. I would say 75% of the cars out there had one person in them.""

    I agree, and it is clear, since in 1981 it took $3.00 gas (in 2004 $!) to make people swith to small fuel efficient cars. THis time gas barely topped $2, and it is dropping fast. It is now only $1.80 average in OH, VA and many other states.
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    100% is an asymptotic limit and even that cannot be achieved because of energy conversion losses.

    450% is impossible. Relook at the actual numbers. The output can never exceed the input. Look at basic physical and scientific properties.

    The magentic motor might be more efficinet and closer to 100% efficiency but it still cannot achieve 100%. Anyting greater than 100% effciency is perpetual motion, which even you agree is not possible.

    YMMV,

    MidCow
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "450% is impossible. Relook at the actual numbers. The output can never exceed the input. Look at basic physical and scientific properties."

    First, let me acknowledge the misuse of the word "efficiency". A better term would be Coefficient of Performance(COP). The output can be greater than input. Heat pumps has done exactly that. Some info:

    "Coefficient of Performance or COP is the most common measurement used to rate heat pumps efficiency. COP is the ratio of the heat pump's BTU heat output to the BTU electrical input. Conventional electric resistance heaters have a COP of 1.0 Meaning it takes one watt of electricity to deliver the heat equivalent of one watt. Air-source heat pumps generally have COPs of 2 to 4; they deliver two to four times more energy than they consume. Water and ground source heat pumps normally have COPs of 3 to 5."

    For more info: http://tva.apogee.net/res/rehcop.asp

    "The magnetic motor might be more efficinet and closer to 100% efficiency but it still cannot achieve 100%"

    In a closed system, it is very true. But in an open system, other factors will also determine the output result as shown in the heat pump example. We know that electrons can jump to different orbits but we don't know what force(s) keep them there. In terms of magnetism, once a matter is magnetized, we don't know what force(s) keep it magnetized. If the extra energy is coming into an open system electric motor, it must be from that force(s).

    I know it has turned into wishful theoretical thinking but I just need to open up a possibility of being achievable to refute "impossible" state of mind. It should not be taken as absolute fact until further proof surface and Minato fan actually come out in Japan.

    Dennis
  • djasonwdjasonw Member Posts: 624
    From what I've been reading, there is a great demand for the '04 Prius in Europe. That demand, in conjunction with the demand in the states means the Prius (along with other hybrids) will continue to enjoy worldwide acceptance and recongnition. I look forward to the next generation Prius that will probably see exponential gains as the '04 did over the classic. This is only the beginning folks, hybrids are here to stay. Get used to it.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    If they live up to the long term promises, you are probably right.
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    I want a manual shift?
    I want good performance?
    I want good miles per gallon.
    I want good reliability.
    I want good braking and pretty good handling?

    I want to spend in the range $15,000 to $35,000

    Should I get a hybrid? What should I get?

    I am soo confused?

    YMMV,

    MidCow
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "I want a manual shift? "

    Can you be more clear why you want a manual shift? Is it for the control? Efficiency? Do you drift?

    Dennis
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    85% of my cars in the last 35 years have been manual. Of the 3 cars i have now two are manual shift. The autos are my wifes and the time we got a Toronado when front wheel drive was only on a few cars.

    I like the control ; step on the gas and you know it isn't going to downshift.

    At first 4-speeds were faster than 2 and 3 speed autos. The 5-speeds came along and now 6-speed manuals.

    On smaller engines or VTEC engines , better perfromace.

    If the gearing is correct you get much better highway mileage.

    Okay now CVT, 5-speed, 6-speed and 7-speed automatics. The autos have the same performance now and the same miles per gallon.

    On major service my IS300 5-speed I saved on not changing the auto transmisison fluid.

    And some of the best sports cars don't come in automatic.

    I guess it is the driving pleasure and fun factor. I just really like manual transmissions. I have tried the Psuedo shifters the shifters on the floor and the push buttons on the steering wheel but its just not the same ( maybe an M3 SMG or Ferrari would be, but I haven't driven those).

    Thanks,
    MidCow
  • djasonwdjasonw Member Posts: 624
    Get a TDI.
  • tom21769tom21769 Member Posts: 63
    MidCow, I'm with you. I have always preferred manual shift.
    The transmission is in fact a fairly big factor for me, as I take my time deciding between a new diesel or a hybrid. Both of these are in very short supply now. The TDIs seem to come in more frequently with manual than the Civic Hybrids do (if only I can get one with most of the other features I want).
    Prius is not offered with manual trannys; besides, its real-world price is too high for me and there's a long waiting list.

    I've always preferred manual because it has offered:
    - a lower purchase price
    - better fuel economy
    - better performance and control
    - more driving fun

    Maybe the new CVTs eliminate at least the fuel economy and performance issues. The purchase price issue would go away, too, if I were convinced the true long-term cost to own a CVT is favorable. As for the driving fun, if all other factors were right, I suppose I could grit my teeth, go out with my teenage daughter to a local parking lot, and have her teach me to drive an automatic.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    Maybe the new CVTs eliminate at least the fuel economy and performance issues

    There is no possible way that a CVT can be as efficient as a manual transmission and clutch. It may be able to get more efficient use out of a particular engine by taking advantage of the power curve that engine possesses. A manual transmission in the hands of a person that knows the torque curve of his engine is more efficient. That is the reason Manual transmission vehicles are rated higher mileage than the same car with an automatic. The CVT is nothing new. It has been around since at least the 1940s. It is just a fancy term for a centrifugal clutch used in every go-kart, mini-bike & snow machine. They work good and are very simple. Not even close to 100% efficient.
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    I have strongly considered a Golf GLS TDI 5-speed:

    * Pricey $19,300 lowest quote
    * Reliability Issues: electrical, Turbo diesel
    * Performance: adequate ,but pretty languid

    YMMV,
    MidCow
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    I'm not sure where you live. I see Findlay VW in Las Vegas has a bunch of Jetta TDI vehicles. They show a list price of $19,245 for 5 speed with OD.
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    There is about a $2,000 difference between the GL and the GLS models of the Jetta and Golf. I was looking at the more expensive GLS model ( sunroof, center console, upgraded interior, alloy wheels) with ESC. However, thanks for the input.

    MidCow
  • tom21769tom21769 Member Posts: 63
    $19,300 -- that's about $400-$500 hundred over invoice, correct?
    Sounds about right, considering you could hardly find that car at all in my area
    (Baltimore/Washington).

    I've been offered the Jetta TDI GL Wagon, manual transmission with ESP, for $19,577.
    One dealer in Frederick MD offers a few TDIs at or near invoice price + $99, but inventory's very low (zero Golf TDIs).

    I have never attached much value to "performance" in a car. However, compared to what I've been driving (10 year old F150 PU), the Jetta is a real prima donna. I don't know what would be much better in a 40+ mpg vehicle.
  • oldboyoldboy Member Posts: 59
    If you would like something a bit roomier, more upscale than the Golf or Jetta TDI, I would recommend the Passat TDI: about $23,000 for the GL, or $25,000 for the GLS (and up). It is rated 27 city/ 38 hwy, but many claim to get over 40 mpg with it. While it is true that it only comes with a 5-speed automatic, it is the Tiptronic, which does allow you to take over and shift gears yourself. I have not driven one myself, but others here can advise how that works.
  • oldboyoldboy Member Posts: 59
    that on this thread, "The future of Hybrid Vehicles", when the question arises as to what car to get, so many of us suggest a VW TDI! Clean diesels account for half of all new car sales in Europe, and there is not the Prius frenzy there that we have here in the USA.

    I first got interested in this discussion when I learned about the Prius getting spectacular mpg. But as I have learned more, I have become more enamored of the TDI. However I think that the future has a place for both hybrids and clean diesels. For someone who is such a fan of manual shift cars, like Midcow is, you might also consider the Honda Civic hybrid.
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    Insight ??

    I have finally found a place that will order a new 2004 Honda Insight 5-speed w/AC 60/66 mpg New Formula Red at a reasonable price, $19,621 Howver I have also got a loaded new formula red SRT-4 22/30 mpg down to $21,278 Maybe I will just wait until the Accord Hybrid comes out (OH please have a manual version!!!!)
  • oldboyoldboy Member Posts: 59
    MidCow, are you kidding? I thought you were looking for more of a car than that. It seems to me that you are really all over the place, in deciding what sort of car to buy. Moparbad has given us some interesting new links on another hybrid thread about the new TDIs. Personally I am really sold on the Passat TDI now; but then, I am not looking for a manual shift car myself.
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