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The Future of Hybrid Technology
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I'll go so far as to say that if the Accord 2.2 i-CTDi alone makes it to the 50 states, available in manual and auto trannies, along with ULSD, the only 2 people in the country who would be pro-hybrid at that point would be john1701a and usbseawolf2000.
I can't wait for the day when decent diesels make it to NA and the bottom falls out of the used hybrids market.
Better(read "cleaner and more efficient") diesels are on the horizon due to advances in diesel engine design and diesel injection systems(High Pressure Common Rail) and ULSD(EPA requirement) coming to the U.S. in 2007.
But I don't get your hope that "the bottom falls out of the used hybrids market" comment.
Hybrids are here to stay and are most definitely compatible with hybrid technology, as seen with the Diesel-Electric Hybrid buses that have been making their way into many municipal transit systems across the U.S and the world. Santiago, Chile is getting 3,000 D/E buses http://tinyurl.com/46o5t,
which makes Seattle's 235 D/E buses seem pitifully small in comparison.
Maybe it's the "Prius Preachers" that have have you annoyed with hybrids. They are biased but so what, let them be. It shouldn't take away from the fact that hybrid technology is an advancement in transportation technology that benefits us all.
This statement is not quite correct. The batteries do not run the motors alone (even in the Prius, though it runs for a limited time on electric only). All hybrids use a combination of ICE and electric motors.
Thanks for helping keep things organized.
I looked at the MDX for the first time, I thought it more attractive than most of the wannabe SUVs.
The guy in charge of it all has spoken with owners at the big auto shows. He has even attended a few owner gatherings. And if you look back to the initial rollout, you'll find messages from him and another in management answering our questions.
The long-term goal of reducing emissions & consumption is blatant.
The intent to crush the competion using that advanced technology and the reputation it provides is becoming rather obvious too. Both traditional & hybrid sales are very strong.
And if you don't believe that, just read the countless press releases that clearly state their goal is provide a hybrid option for every passenger vehicle they offer by 2010. In fact, if you dig deep enough, you'll find the date was originally 2012. But things have went so well with HSD, they accelerated their plans.
No matter where you look, the proof is there.
JOHN
Not mentioning that you live in ALASKA is a rather huge omission.
I see 4 to 6 daily here in Minnesota.
> If anyone thinks Toyota's motivation is anything but Profit & greed
Not all executives are evil. Some do rank the reduction of emissions & consumption among their priorities too.
JOHN
Toyota executives are like BP, Exxon, Ford & GM. They are great salesmen and they got you believing that they care about the environment.
Not all executives are evil. Some do rank the reduction of emissions & consumption among their priorities too.
___We are speaking of Toyota here, right? You remember those guys and their huge concern for reducing Emissions & Consumption. Maker of the Land Cruiser and Sequoia with an EPA emissions score of 0 out of a possible 10! Even if you wanted to harm the environment, you couldn’t do it nearly as bad by purchasing any Ford, GM, Daimler-Chrysler, Honda, Acura, Nissan, or Infiniti, and even a Hummer H2 with this low a score! Well at least the GX-470 received a 1 out of 10 which is still much worse then the Hummer H2, Ford Excursion, Chevrolet Suburban, Dodge Durango, etc Get the point? Toyota doesn’t give damn about the environment or they wouldn’t be selling these 3 filthy puking P’s O S. It is a profit play and a profit play alone. When Toyota’s D-CAT tech hits the states in 2006/2007, hopefully they can improve some of these abysmally low scores w/ cleaner diesels but at this point in time, there isn’t any point in saying Toyota is doing anything other then lining there pockets at your expense with all the green rhetoric.
___Wayne R. Gerdes
When the executives of a company like Toyota are forced by their PR people to stoop to talk with the dregs of society, it is for the express purpose of pulling the wool over the eyes of the masses. When they retreat to the executive suite they sip their $1200 a bottle brandy and laugh about the schmucks that ate up their lies like candy.
Wayne,
I tried to be more diplomatic about the low life executives that run most of the major corporations in the world. I agree with you 100% though.
Gary
That happens to be one of the vehicles that give all SUVs a bad name. It is a horrible polluter. And Toyota thinks they can come up with this hybrid and all their sins are forgiven. It does not work that way.
I am. A couple of owners there have contacted me about my experiences... since at times Minnesota is actually colder!
JOHN
Fortunately, what you describe is not true.
Toyota is not seeking forgiveness, they are seeking acceptance (and patience). They want to sell hybrid versions of those vehicles.
JOHN
Making a profit?
Selling something to the public that they desire...unheard of; to Marxists.
Toyota could sell a 100 or even a million times more of their SUVs and not have any impact on the environment. It's so inconsequential it's laughable.
Now if you tell me by reducing consumption we could give OPEC (particularly middle eastern producers) the big middle finger; then I'm all for a hybrid.
For me, I would down size if anything offered in the US would fill my needs and get appreciably better mileage than the Suburban. Say a Midsize truck. The only one that comes close to decent mileage is the new GM Colorado/Canyon with a 4 cylinder it gets 21/27 mpg. The rest of the world get Ranger diesel crew cabs that get an honest 45 mpg. The GM hybrid truck is not of any value to me. Give me a vehicle I can haul a bunch of stuff in that gets 35-40 mpg and I'll give up my gas guzzling Suburban.
Hossack also said Toyota is subsidizing the Prius as a public-relations exercise to create goodwill for the brand from consumers, businesses and governments.
http://money.cnn.com/2004/09/06/pf/autos/bc.bizfeature.autos.hybr- - id.reut/
The 2004 Prius was 17,000 backorders deep before delivery of the first here even began!!!
And look at Ford. Not a single person in Hollywood owns one, yet the entire allotment of 2005 are already ordered.
JOHN
Here is the vehicle that was supposed to be out summer of 2003. Two more weeks and it is fall. Anyone wanna bet it don't make it by the end of summer?
http://www.fordvehicles.com/escapehybrid/home/index.asp?redir=tru- - e&bhcp=1&&br=IE&ver=6&pfrm=Win2000
Your absolutely right on. No one owns one in Hollywood or Iowa or anywhere else.
But when asked about which new technologies they want most, hybrid powertrains rank well down on the list. For example, the most-sought after new technology was side air bags, cited by 79 percent of consumers surveyed. Hybrid technology ranked 23rd on the list of 29 technologies, at 28 percent. More consumers said they wanted side-mirror turn signals and rain-sensing wipers than a hybrid powertrain."
http://www.detnews.com/2003/autosinsider/0305/19/a13-166939.htm
"January through March was a great sales quarter for the Toyota Prius with 6,106 Americans joining the ranks of Cameron Diaz and Leonardo DiCaprio as Prius owners."
http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/auto/20030507a1.asp
April 2004
"When the Hallowell resident bought her Prius a year and four months ago, she had three to choose from on the lot at Charlie's Toyota.
Since then, gas prices have kept going up and up. And hybrids such as the Prius have all but disappeared from dealers' lots.
http://kennebecjournal.mainetoday.com/news/local/561490.shtml
The list of facts is endless that show two things about the Prius. It was NOT a big seller until the 2004 model year and Hollywood was a big part of the sales pitch. There was no wait if you wanted one the first 3 1/2 years they were in the states. To believe otherwise is delusional. The facts are not there.
All throughout the first 2 years of Prius rollout, the car was slammed for alleged low sales. In reality, 100 percent of the quota was sold immediately.
It's a simple trick. Those writers just focused on the actual quantity being purchased, rather than the fact that there was only a finite amount available.
Had Prius been available like any other vehicle, where an ample supply was always in stock, a depiction of true market demand could have been derived. Instead, there was a just fixed quantity.
Toyota stated they'd only build 15,000 that first year. So no matter how high the demand was, only 15,000 could be sold. Those reporters didn't care about that, nor did they care that people were waiting 6 months for delivery either. All they did was divide 15,000 by 17,000,000. That provided a result of just 1/10 of 1 percent of overall sales in the United States.
What you also don't realize is that Toyota corporate owned the test-drive models, not the dealers. That forced the dealers to keep one on the lot at all times, since they obviously can't sell a vehicle they don't even have the title to. The every third month, Toyota corporate would send a new test-drive model. That provided one on the lot for immediate sale, no delivery wait.
And still another fact you were clearly unaware of is that Toyota used Prius in rental fleets. So from time to time, you'd suddenly discover a dozen on the lot all for sale with only minor mileage on them.
I'm sorry that you've been mislead by those reports. But I was there and very activitely participated in that history. In fact, the very reason I created my website was to help those endure the horribly long delivery wait. So if there is anything else about the history you'd like to know about, please ask.
Remember, it is very difficult to distinguish between those that don't have the whole story and those that have been told a different story by someone either poorly informed or has the intent to make hybrids appear to be a failure.
JOHN
I do consider you an authority on the Prius, just not the only one.
Read it again.
The facts are there.
Just look percent sold references both in what I provided and what is in those reports, they match.
Then step back and look at the big picture. SUVs are nothing but hype. The design is gross overkill for the daily commute, yet a majority of people pay obsence amounts of money to use them for exactly that.
Sales of Prius are strong and Toyota is on their way to achieving a tidy profit from HSD. There are a lot of people that will lose money because of that, and it makes for a story that the popular media does not want to cover. So naturally you are going to get a false impression of the actual success. And of course, some people simply fear change.
Then step back even further. Cause of success makes no difference anyway. That undeniable fact is they are successful.
Then... try to deny that the gas prices have not had any influence on the interest in hybrids. $$$$$ means far more than Hollywood appeal.
JOHN
Agree to disagree and for goodness sake - move on. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and interpretation of what they have read and experienced. Unless anyone here is a Honda or Toyota exec - we all interpret what we read/experience.
Let's say for the sake of argument most of what you have said is correct. There is no statistical document that I have seen or you have produced that says how profitable or unprofitable the Prius really is. Only innuendoes by Toyota corporate leaders that the new Prius is just about or close to being profitable. To me the future of hybrid lies in the ability of the automakers to build them at a profit. Also they will have to sell at close to the ICE only competitors as gas savings alone will not sell them. If gas prices, as you believe, go up to the $3.00 range. The hybrid will continue to have a good market. The one thing you and no one else has proven is the long range reliability of the HSD Prius. With only a year on the market it is not Proven reliable. As more people get over 100k miles on their Prius it will be easier to look at the reliability.
I NEVER SAID THAT!!!
My actual statement was $2 per gallon, not $3.
I also said that $2.25 makes the cost pretty much a wash. Then I proceeded to point out that $2.50 makes the price totally a non-issue.
Please don't misquote me.
JOHN
http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=15340