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The Future of Hybrid Technology

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  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    You never see any deer on the road or drive in snowy or icy conditions? There are more good reasons to have a good handling and braking vehicle than a fuel efficient one when out on the highways of this country. IMO!
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    There are more good reasons to have a good handling and braking vehicle than a fuel efficient one when out on the highways of this country. IMO!

    There are a lot of deer where I live and the most popular vehicles are full sized trucks. These typically have poor braking and handling characteristics. So I guess a lot of people feel that they can forego handling if they have a vehicle that can smash whatever it runs into.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    A PU would be my first choice in deer country for sure. Though a good handling vehicle may help you avoid hitting a deer. That still leaves the Prius out in deer country. No big bumper or turn on a dime handling, add to that less than great brakes.
  • daysailerdaysailer Member Posts: 720
    But the Prius driver can take comfort in the knowledge that it took less fuel to kill the deer than it would have with a pick-up, that is, if he lives.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    From a person who grew up in and still has family in Texas deer country:

    DO NOT SWERVE TO MISS A DEER.

    I have a cousin who did that in his police cruiser at about 80 mph, was thrown out of the vehicle, suffered brain damage and almost died.

    My sister hit a deer in her 2007 Saturn Aura just last week. Broken windshield, blood and guts inside the car, but no humans were injured.

    People who swerve to miss deer put their lives in more danger than just hitting the animal.

    Best choice in deer country is indeed a large pickup with a large steel brushguard. But if you must drive a car, it does not matter what car you drive - just watch for deer and if you are going to hit one, just HIT YOUR BRAKES and do not swerve to avoid it.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    Just to continue our seasonal off-topic diversion here for one more post (then we can get back to hybrids)...

    Just yesterday there were two people killed in an accident here. They swerved to miss a deer and went right into the path of a semi. Even without any traffic around, sudden moves can be dangerous. Staying under control and hitting the deer is likely a better choice than veering off the road into a tree or some other object, or losing control, rolling your vehicle, etc.

    And now, back to our regular programming...
  • terry92270terry92270 Member Posts: 1,247
    One should take care, if having to hit such an animal, to stop braking just before impact. That way you increase the probability of the creature going under the vehicle, as the nose will move upward when releasing the brakes, instead of it flying up, and into your windshield.
  • daysailerdaysailer Member Posts: 720
    Hybrid technology remains the greatest advance in ICE efficiency to date. But vehicles using that technology must nevertheless compete with other vehicles in the marketplace on more than fuel efficiency if they are to become a majority. I suspect that Toyota will eventually improve the Prius' dismal dynamics or replace it with a vehicle which, like the Camry hybrid, is more transparent as a hybrid, but cost remains the enemy to overcome.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Ultracapacitors ROCK !!

    The recent victory of the Toyota Supra HV-R in Japan's 24-hour Tokachi endurance race suggests that ultracapacitors will replace batteries in cars, according to industry analyst Strategy Analytics.

    The Supra completed 616 laps during the endurance race, 19 more than the second placed car.

    The vehicle was equipped with ultracapacitors instead of rechargeable batteries for power storage.

    The analyst firm noted that the car was able to store large quantities of energy quickly from regenerative braking and apply this stored power quickly to its advantage.

    German car maker BMW has also demonstrated this ability in its 'syncap' concept whereby two-thirds of total vehicle torque is generated by the syncaps enabling heavy SUVs to accelerate more quickly than before with improved fuel economy.
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    Unless you believe the hype from Eestor, ultracapacitors are a long way from being able to store as much energy as batteries. Ultracaps also have high self-discharge rates when compared to batteries. However they do offer many advantages today that could be used in blended solution for hybrids, PHEVs or EVs. As the article pointed out they have a much higher charge, discharge rate, and last a lot longer in terms of cycle life. This would greatly enhance a system that also included a battery pack. By allowing the ultracapacitors to handle the charging/discharging associated with stop and go driving you will not only recapture more energy, have greater acceleration but will significantly extend the battery pack's life.
  • michael2003michael2003 Member Posts: 144
    All good points and hopefully anyone coming out with a PHEV will also employ some amount of ultracaps in addition to the battery pack, specifically to help address the life cycle concerns of batteries.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Awesome concept. Real-World capable? Debatable.

    The Toyota 1/X concept vehicle

    image

    It seems like every other day now that a car company announces a new concept that is redefining what it means to be an environmentally friendly vehicle. However, when Toyota says it, we tend to take a closer look. It was Toyota, after all, that created the Prius, the standard to which all subsequent hybrid vehicles are measured. The Toyota 1/x concept, which recently appeared at the Chicago Auto Show, is Toyota’s latest attempt at redefining what a green vehicle means. And to them, it is all about making it weigh less.

    The name 1/X refers to the reduced amount of weight, emissions and fuel consumption that the vehicle has compared to that of other similar vehicles in its class. It is made from a carbon fiber reinforced plastic frame, that is quite strong but much lighter than conventional framing system. The shape of the vehicle is a result of a desire by Toyota’s designers to create a smaller space, that would have a feeling of openness. It has the same amount of space as a Prius, yet weighs about a third.

    The roof is transparent, heat and noise insulating, and made from a bio-plastic derived from kenaf and ramie plants. The seats of the vehicle are extremely light, yet, according to Toyota, quite comfortable. The entire front of the vehicle is clad in an LED lighting system that provides a soft glow, illuminating the entire front surface of the vehicle. And, due to the light weight of the vehicle, the 1/X’s wheels are smaller and thinner than those of a regular vehicle. They have even reduced the amount of water splashed by the tires when traveling on wet surface.

    The 1/x is meant to operate at a fuel efficiency that is double that of the Prius. It comes with a plug-in hybrid unit and a small fuel-engine. This design, combined with the lightness of the car means that it can travel for over 600 miles on a four-gallon tank of fuel. Overall, a pretty impressive technology package from Toyota.

    image
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Are hybrids healthy for drivers?

    There is a legitimate scientific reason for raising the issue. The flow of electrical current to the motor that moves a hybrid vehicle at low speeds (and assists the gasoline engine on the highway) produces magnetic fields, which some studies have associated with serious health matters, including a possible risk of leukemia among children.

    With the batteries and power cables in hybrids often placed close to the driver and passengers, some exposure to electromagnetic fields is unavoidable. Moreover, the exposure will be prolonged — unlike, say, using a hair dryer or electric shaver — for drivers who spend hours each day at the wheel.

    Some hybrid owners have actually tested their cars for electromagnetic fields using hand-held meters, and a few say they are alarmed by the results.

    Their concern is not without merit; agencies including the National Institutes of Health and the National Cancer Institute acknowledge the potential hazards of long-term exposure to a strong electromagnetic field, or E.M.F., and have done studies on the association of cancer risks with living near high-voltage utility lines.

    NY TIMES
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    It is the quickest electric motorcycle in the world. On a popular YouTube video, the black dragster cycle nearly disappears in a cloud of smoke as the driver does a "burn-out," spinning the back wheel to heat it up. As the smoke drifts away, the driver settles into position and hits a switch, and the bike surges forward, accelerating to 60 miles per hour in less than a second. Seven seconds later it crosses the quarter-mile mark at 168 miles per hour--quick enough to compete with gas-powered dragsters.

    What powers the "Killacycle" is a novel lithium-ion battery developed by A123 Systems, a startup in Watertown, MA--one of a handful of companies working on similar technology. The company's batteries store more than twice as much energy as nickel-metal hydride batteries, the type used in today's hybrid cars, while delivering the bursts of power necessary for high performance. A radically modified version of the lithium-ion batteries used in portable electronics, the technology could jump-start the long-sputtering electric-vehicle market, which today represents a tiny fraction of 1 percent of vehicle sales in the United States. A123's batteries in particular have attracted the interest of General Motors, which is testing them as a way to power the Volt, an electric car with a gasoline generator; the vehicle is expected to go into mass production as early as 2010.


    If this battery performs as expected - WHEW !!!

    As Easy As A123
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    A123 seems to have an impressive product. Their batteries are already being used in some Dewalt power tools. In addition to hybrids and EVs I believe these battery packs have a lot of potential in lawn mowers and string trimmers, which are very polluting. Hopefully A123 can create the manufacturing capacity to meet the demand.
  • pengibellapengibella Member Posts: 3
    Do you think it is possible to retro fit cars with hydrogen units? What do you think of this site.
    www.hfactorfs.com
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Veddy Veddy Interestink...............

    Toyota plans Prius with solar panels
    Posted by Steven Musil 29 comments

    Toyota plans to install solar panels on the roof of the next generation of Prius hybrid cars, according to a report in Monday's edition of the Nikkei newspaper.

    The panels, which are expected to begin appearing on the high-end version of the gasoline-electric hybrid car as early as next spring, will supply part of the 2 to 5 kilowatts needed to power the air conditioning, MarketWatch cited the Japanese business daily as reporting. Kyocera will reportedly supply the panels.

    The move would make Toyota the first major automaker to incorporate a solar-power generation system into a mass-produced car.


    Here Comes The Sun
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    See the full report here

    If you ask none other than IBM, we are twelve years away from an "all hybrids ALL THE TIME" future.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Could this be the technology which kills fuel cell cars?

    High-Efficiency Generators for Hybrid Vehicles. Free-piston engines could be used to generate electricity as efficiently as, and less expensively than, fuel cells.

    An unconventional engine design is attracting attention as a potential alternative to hydrogen fuel cells or conventional engines in some hybrid vehicles. Called the free-piston engine, it could be used to generate electricity as efficiently as fuel cells yet cost less.

    Free-piston engines aren't new: they were invented in the 1920s. But the increased recent focus on hybrid cars has led a growing number of research groups and automakers to start research programs to develop the technology. Unlike in conventional engines, there is no mechanical connection between the piston and a crankshaft (hence the name free-piston). Since the design allows for improved combustion and less friction, the engines could be far more efficient in generating electricity than either conventional generators or newer fuel-cell technology.

    Having a cheap and efficient way to generate electricity is becoming more important as automakers develop electric vehicles with onboard generators for recharging the battery pack and extending range. Such vehicles, called series plug-in hybrids or extended-range electric vehicles, are to be sold starting in late 2010. (Click here for a comparison of different hybrid and electric vehicle types.) The first will use generators based on conventional engines. But later models could incorporate fuel cells or other unconventional generators, such as free-piston engines.

    The potential high efficiency of free-piston engines gives them an advantage over conventional generators, and their ability to use a variety of fuels is an advantage over hydrogen fuel cells. What's more, free-piston engines don't require expensive materials such as the platinum catalysts needed in fuel cells, so they could be cheaper too.

    Automakers such as GM, Lotus, and Volvo have started to investigate the possibility of using such engines in future vehicles. Meanwhile, in the past couple of years, an increasing number of academic research teams have started developing the engines. So far, most have focused on computer simulations. An exception is a research group at Sandia National Laboratory led by Sandia researcher Peter Van Blarigan that has been testing physical components of free-piston engines. He is assembling a complete free-piston engine prototype, a project that he expects to complete within a year.
  • Karen_SKaren_S Member Posts: 5,092
    A reporter from a national newspaper would like to speak to consumers who are always looking for the latest car technologies. If you always looking for the newest car gadgets, please respond to ctalati@edmunds.com with your daytime phone number by Monday, October 6.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Very interesting. I guess it pays to dig around in old shops and warehouses to find inventions that were ahead of their time...
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    There's also some research going on involving replacing the ICE generator with a microturbine generator. Turbine engines are more efficient than ICEs but are not really suitable for directly driving the wheels. However if they are used to generate electricity instead that eliminates many of their shortcomings. Turbine engines can also run on a variety of fuels and, due to their fewer parts, should be lower maintenance.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I would think the advancement in ceramics would make small turbines much better than the one in the Chrysler turbine car and the 1968 Indy turbine car that blew away the competition. I have always liked turbines for their simplicity.
  • coldcrankercoldcranker Member Posts: 877
    click here for hydraulic hybrids as the future of hybrids

    This is a very efficient way and easy way to do a hybrid, and with the torque production, you get neck-snapping acceleration quite easily on demand. This also works fantastic in UPS trucks (and similar, like garbage trucks, city delivery, etc.). No batteries or transmissions, no electric motors either!
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,242
    A reporter is looking to speak to consumers who have used or adapted solar power in their vehicles. In addition, if you use solar power in your home, the reporter is also interested in speaking to you. Please send your daytime phone number to ctalati@edmunds.com by Tuesday, April 14, 2009.

    Thanks,
    Chintan
    Corporate Communications
    Edmunds.com

    MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
    Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
    2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
    Review your vehicle

  • toyolla2toyolla2 Member Posts: 158
    The 2010 Prius is effectively a Camry Hybrid powertrain but with the 1.8L engine incorporating an electric water pump.

    The 2010 Insight is a Prius look-alike with the mild hybrid powertrain from the Honda Civic hybrid.

    The technological equivalent of when you've caught the bus you can stop running.

    Unless there is going to be serious outside competition it seems that Honda and Toyota have decided on a risk averse posture.

    No more to see here. Move on people.
    T2
  • toyolla2toyolla2 Member Posts: 158
    I may have made the above comments too soon.

    I learned last Monday that Honda was replacing its CEO. Part reason was the 7,000 orders for the new Insight against the 50,000 demand for the 2010 Prius.

    It appears this is may be due to the Insight being an assist hybrid while the public is calling for a full hybrid.

    Clearly Honda wants to do something about being #2.

    If this is so maybe we will soon be seeing twin servomotor hybrids coming from Honda.

    It will be interesting to see how they build a partially decoupled engine system without violating the HSD patents, unless of course, they adopt the fully decoupled engine topology known as the series hybrid.

    Within the series hybrid approach lies the opportunity to forgo the usual 'boutique' energy source, in the name of economy, and place the emphasis on being the electric transmission instead.

    Advantage could be taken of adopting one of Honda's motorcycle engine powerplants since one would be an excellent choice for a directly coupled drive into a high speed alternator-generator.

    Ability to handle high rpms when needed for those occasional peak power demands should serve to keep size and therefore mass down for a given specified peak power.

    Correctly executed, expectations are that the somewhat reduced mass of the resulting powertrain would translate further into substantially diminishing the so-called hybrid premium.
    T2
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "It will be interesting to see how they build a partially decoupled engine system without violating the HSD patents, unless of course, they adopt the fully decoupled engine topology known as the series hybrid. "

    GM managed it with the Tahoe hybrid, unless they licensed the technology from Toyota (which I have not heard).

    Ford developed their platform independently and ended up swapping patents with Toyota; they do not license the HSD like Nissan.

    So it can be done.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    I can't find the forum where Gary and I were discussing and predicting how many hybrid cars would be available in the USA by the end of 2009.

    The number is 27 right now, so my guess is that I was a lot closer to the number than Gary was.....
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I count about 13. Unless you are including each color. Maybe 14 if we get to see the $89,000 hybrid we just gave Al Gore and his buddies in Finland a half Billion to build. Hybrid scams abound.

    WASHINGTON -- A tiny car company backed by former Vice President Al Gore has just gotten a $529 million U.S. government loan to help build a hybrid sports car in Finland that will sell for about $89,000.

    The award this week to California startup Fisker Automotive Inc. follows a $465 million government loan to Tesla Motors Inc., purveyors of a $109,000 British-built electric Roadster. Tesla is a California startup focusing on all-electric vehicles, with a number of celebrity endorsements that is backed by investors that have contributed to Democratic campaigns.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125383160812639013.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_MIDDLTopStor- ies
  • georgeryder9georgeryder9 Member Posts: 2
    The Toyota 1/X concept vehicle picture looks awesome. It is a great attempt by toyota and it is also economical and environment friendly. I will give this car, 10 out of 10 if it really has output as said above. But I hope there are other electronics attachments such as bluetooth facility, plugs for laptop and laptop memory , internet facility and mobile facilities, if you know what I mean.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Oh, ye doubting Garys:

    Honda Insight Gen. 1 (Automatic)
    Honda Insight Gen. 1 (Manual)
    Honda Insight Gen. 2
    Honda Civic Hybrid Gen. 1 (Automatic)
    Honda Civic Hybrid Gen. 1 (Manual)
    Honda Civic Hybrid Gen. 2
    Toyota Prius Gen. 1
    Honda Accord Hybrid
    Nissan Altima Hybrid
    Toyota Camry Hybrid
    Ford Fusion Hybrid
    Lexus GS 450h
    Mercury Milan Hybrid
    Toyota Prius Gen. 2
    Toyota Prius Gen. 3
    Lexus LS 600hL
    Ford Escape Hybrid
    Mercury Mariner Hybrid
    Mazda Tribute Hybrid
    Toyota Highlander
    Lexus RX 400h
    Chrysler Aspen Hybrid
    Dodge Durango Hybrid
    Cadillac Escalade Hybrid
    Chevrolet Tahoe Hybrid
    GMC Yukon Hybrid
    GMC Sierra Hybrid
    Chevrolet Silverado Hybrid

    25, 26, or 27, depending how you count.

    A lot, anyway.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Rebadging does not make another model of car. This is my count. on current hybrids offered. Don't look for Honda to keep throwing money away on their two losers.

    Honda Insight Gen. 2
    Honda Civic Hybrid Gen. 2
    Nissan Altima Hybrid
    Toyota Camry Hybrid
    Ford Fusion Hybrid
    Lexus GS 450h
    Toyota Prius Gen. 3
    Ford Escape Hybrid
    Toyota Highlander
    Lexus RX 400h
    Chrysler Aspen Hybrid
    Chevrolet Tahoe Hybrid
    Chevrolet Silverado Hybrid

    That makes 13 hybrids with various sheet metal changes. You could stretch the truth way out with 2WD and AWD in every category.

    Only about 3 models are doing well in sales:
    Prius
    Fusion
    Escape
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