Maybe if we had ANY idea (I know I don't) how many watts of energy it would take to drive a Prius 10 miles we could then decide if it was cheaper to 'fuel' it from the power grid or at the local gas station.
Let me get this straight: the car is a hybrid but instead of an ICE running on conventional fuel, the 48 volt batteries on board run an air compressor, the compressed air is pumped through the engine making the pistons work thereby driving the car at low speed, until the car reaches a higher speed where the regular electric motor kicks in?
This is just so wrong on so many levels I don't even know where to begin.....
Wouldn't it be more EFFICIENT to simply let the batteries run the electric motor propelling the car directly? Why go through all this rigamoro with an on-board compressor, air tanks, and ICE? One could just chunk all the extra mass (ICE,compressor, tanks, etc. etc. etc.) thereby increasing performance OR replace the mass with more batteries adding range. Not to mention the fact that typically electric motors are MOST efficient at LOW vehicle speeds, precisely the speed that the 'air motor' is supposed to be helping? Whaaaaaaa?????
I had to check twice to make sure that thing wasn't posted on April 1.....
This guy figures the amount of energy you actually use to propel the car runs about $0.40/KW-hr. About 4 times your electric rate. Of course road taxes are in there, which would have to be charged to an electric vehicle in some way - so drop the gasoline cost closer to $0.30/KW-hr for the true cost of the fuel.
But of course the problem with batteries is energy storage, weight, limited range, and time tto recharge the vehicle. If you want to take a 500 mile trip, and your electric car range is 200 miles, motels are going to have quite a good business.
The energy cost is going to be the same to "top off" the batteries, no matter where you do it. I was thinking in terms of whether or not residential wiring could even deliver enough "juice" to make it practical to consider.
I don't believe the EV would be suitable for cross country cruising. More of a commuter vehicle, for those that drive under the range of the EV on a daily basis. To charge one would require a special charging device. The EV-1 charger required a $3000 charger hard wired into a large breaker. Until battery technology evolves to the next level EV & hybrids alike are marginally practical. I doubt the current Power Grid would handle even 5% electric or plugin hybrid vehicles.
Yea... to get any range out of an EV it's going to need some kind of boost along the way to supplement the battery supply. Here's what I get for coming right in from mowing the lawn and posting... a silly thought... the "slot car lane" for EV's with electric power supplied at ground level and pickups on the car to grab that power.
I TOLD you it was a silly thought... but then again, there were all those electric trolleys with overhead wires too!
one of the magazines way back in the 50s had a concept car that ran in a groove on the highway. Actually it is not as far fetched as it may sound. You could have a power slot cut in the Interstate and a power probe on your hybrid. When you merge into that lane the probe would go into the groove and power your car for the next 100 miles while you take a nap. When you are ready to exit just de-activate the probe and go on internal power.
At the NY World's Fair and the GM futurama exhibit, showing transportation systems of the future!
It would be an interesting concept. Make the traffic on the highways sort of like a "train" that you add your car to. Sit back, relax and enjoy the view for a while!
Makes you wonder why American ingenuity hasn't come up with it first. All we do is create gas thirsty SUVs. At least Toyota had the insight to see our need for fuel efficient vehicles. Shame on GM (the largest car manufacturer) for giving up!
Makes you wonder why American ingenuity hasn't come up with it first
I believe Chrysler did try before Toyota, and felt the buyers would not pony up the price Premium. The powers that be at Chrysler did not want to risk a bomb. Plus the battery technology was not available before the Prius or Insight hit the market. It is easy to point fingers and say why didn't they do this or that. I think it was just a case of timing. And so far the Prius is the only BIG hybrid hit.
Hopefully other manufacturers will invest in even better technology. We definitely need fuel efficiency and I don't care what they call it. If it gets over 40MPG and it's clean, I'm interested.
I've moved your post about the Suburban hybrid to the Future Hybrids: Which Model Will Be Next? topic. That's the place to discuss possible upcoming hybrid offerings.
Let's keep this one to a discussion of how the technology might advance rather than a discussion of specific makes and models.
"Toyota is already selling the Sienna in Hybrid Form in Japan. No word on when it will be sold elsewhere. "
That is not a Sienna. The US version is larger and heavier, as the article points out. A hybrid sienna is unlikely to be much better at MPG than a Hybrid Highlander. A bit better, due to the aerodynamics, but nothing like the Prius or Civic, and probably not enough to earn a ROI over 150K miles.
Couldn't resist. How long has it been since the Hindenberg? How many other "hydrogen accidents" have there been since then involving any type of transportation, experimnetal or not?
And really, what are the chances or something catastrophic happening to one particular vehicle?
I totally agree with you. We've all been driving around with potential bombs (everyone of us) with gasoline tanks that have numerous times (oh, what the heck) COUNTLESS times Blown up. You could fill a stadium with the lives lost in accidents where the tank ruptured leading to bye-bye land. No one quit driving cars in spite of that kind of tragic history. One more point from an earlier post about hybrids being potentially expensive to repair down the road past warrantee....Anyone notice lately "digital cameras" drastic drop in price since just a few years ago when they were sky-high? I remember my 1st digial watch I purchased @ SEARS for $220.00 just to be the first to have one. Now look.....They give them away in cereal boxes and @ Mcdonald's with a kids meal. The components that, at present, are costly on the Prius will, no doubt, see a reduction in cost in the near future. Why not? Everything else electronic has. Just keep the faith baby. Railroadjames(Hybrids R Smart)
I agree with you! I bet in less than five years there will not be a premium on hybrid versions of cars. I even think if diesel is embraced there won't be a premium on those engines either.
I applaud the advance of hydrogen as an energy storage device...we will certainly need this technology in the future when "easy" on-board fuel is no longer economically viable (we run out of oil). But it's only a stepping stone...the real holy grail is to come up with a clean, abundant, economic soure of energy that can be tapped to be placed into storage.
Burning oil to create hydrogen (less efficiently than if it were just made into gas and placed in the tank) gets us nowhere by itself. The vast majority of folks that have heard of hydrogen fuel have no clue about this. At least the LABJ story actually mentions it.
EVworld shows that lithium batteries are the next step in hybrids. They are lighter , with more power and last longer. A123 is a new type with 5x capacity and 10x the life. These will also make the plugin hybrid more affordable and they are coming next year from calcars.com and Edrive. Can you save 100+ mpg ? Jim
Thia may be why Toyota purchased an interest in Fuji Heavy(Subaru). GM divested themselves of ownership (probably needed the cash). Now Toyota has a small piece of a company that is working on those same type of LIon batteries.
Researchers at MIT say they can boost mileage in cars by as much as 30 percent, depending on the car, by a carefully planned injection of ethanol in the cylinder.
The engine, which is only about half the size of a conventional gas engine, could be on the market in about five years and could add about $1,000 to the cost of a car. That's less than the $3,000 to $5,000 added by a hybrid engine. Thus, consumers will recover the cost more quickly (because the engine uses less gas) and get about the same mileage as a hybrid.
If all of today's engines had the technology, MIT estimates, it could cut U.S. auto fuel consumption from 140 billion gallons to 110 billion gallons annually.
The ethanol injection suppresses the spontaneous combustion inside the cylinder. Spontaneous combustion creates an aggravating knocking sound, but with the knock eliminated, engine manufacturers can then adopt two design conventions common in diesel engines. With one, the engine can be highly turbocharged, which means that more air and fuel can be squeezed into the chamber.
You want to give anything coming out of MIT some credibility but I don't buy this one. Diesels get better mileage primarily because the diesel fuel contains a greater amount of energy. Injecting more air and fuel will produce greater horsepower but that doesn't create better mileage. Someone could argue that with this ability to generate more power you can now use a smaller displacement engine. Smaller engines don't equate to 30% greater mileage. At least not with today's modern ICE's.
In addition to the Saturn Vue, GM plans 11 other hybrid models over the next few years, including full-size SUVs such as the Chevrolet Tahoe and pickups such as the GMC Sierra, both redesigned this year.
Toyota sold 235,000 hybrids worldwide last year, and said in June it plans to double its hybrid models to 14 by early in the next decade and sell 1 million of them annually as early as 2010. GM's first true hybrid, the Saturn Vue Greenline, went on sale this month.
Looks like the "hybrid war" is ON BABY !!! :shades:
Toyota is planning on expanding the Prius range with several new body-styles based on the trendy hybrid sedan. Currently Toyota is considering adding a wagon and a Smart-style city-car, with the possibility of a crossover hybrid utility vehicle in the future.
The additional models will form the bulk of Toyota's campaign of selling one million hybrids worldwide. To that end, Toyota hopes to triple the number of hybrids it sells in the US, with the American market accounting for an anticipated half of that million-car target.
We could expect the wagon to look essentially the same as the current sedan, only with a roof extending rearwards over the expanded cargo area, while the city-car will likely be an all-but-completely new model, riding on a much shorter wheelbase but with styling that immediately associates it with the rest of the Prius range.
I think you are preaching to a crowd that have no use for a good handling car. If it handles like a CamCord that's good enough. Good handling is better appreciated in the EU than the USA.
If you have been around here very long you would know that larsb does not think handling is important in a car. That mileage and emissions are far more important. I happen to disagree. The Japanese cars are more built for utility. The German cars for safety and road handling. But if you want to donate a trip to the EU I would be happy to take it. I've never had the pleasure.
Well I just fall in the middle of you two, where most users are, I guess....we don't want to drive a wind-up cart or enclosed motorcycle, but won't appreciate a 440.
I have been a posting member here for only two years (since 10/18/2004) and reading since 2003....just a newb, I know..... :P
The vast majority of cars sold in the EU are not performance vehicles, but more the type Larsb would appreciate....small, cramped, noisy and good on fuel economy.....
since the dismal handling of the Prius has been its greatest criticism. It has been the brunt of ridicule in the pages of Road & Track for years where its handling has been described as "pitiful", among other things.
ridicule in the pages of Road & Track for years where its handling has been described as "pitiful", among other things.
R&T represents the perspective of the driving enthusiast. Consumer Reports tested the Prius and rated it's handling as competent, meaning average. Their biggest complaint was vague steering. So you're correct. The handling isn't great but you've got to realize that isn't a high priority for a lot of people. For this group its a non-factor.
Chances are if you are driving any vehicle near the limits of its handling capabilities you better hope the cop you whiz by is taking one of his donut breaks.
CU has long favored mediocrity in automobiles and even criticized superior performance. They once rated the Fiat X1/9 unacceptable because it handled too well! I have since taken their automotive conclusions with a grain of salt. R&T, C&D and the like are much more credible, IMO.
Anyone may unexpectedly find themselves operating at or near a vehicle's (or their own) limits when a child, animal or another vehicle darts into their path. That's not the time to begin to consider handling.
R&T, C&D and the like are much more credible, IMO.
What exactly makes them more credible? The fact that they are supported by advertising dollars received largely from the manufacturers of the vehicles they are testing?
Anyone may unexpectedly find themselves operating at or near a vehicle's (or their own) limits when a child, animal or another vehicle darts into their path. That's not the time to begin to consider handling.
Defensive, responsible driving habits can significantly reduce the need to make any kind of emergency manuever. Regardless, is the Prius less capable of avoiding an accident than most SUVs or trucks?
Well I just fall in the middle of you two, where most users are, I guess
What would you consider the middle? I don't think the hybrids have hit the middle of the road buyer. The TCH is close and larsb seems happy in that car. Still a little pricey for the average Camry buyer. That being the LE model 4 cylinder. They are selling for about $21k on average.
Nothing will will convince you as to what the "average" automobile buyer purchases, spends. Personally, I think you confuse your opinions (common sense) of what value is, with what people actually spend.
And that's okay, many of us differ with you there, just as we differ with the electric cart crowd on what is viable, commercially, to sell.
What is interesting, or will be, is to see what direction the manufacturers go in. If history is an indicator, it will be several directions at once, without anyone being totally happy. Personally I think the oil straw is going to have to be nearly empty before the financially strapped domestic industry changes. Foreign-owned companies have a huge market in the third-world that is attractive to them, and we will benefit from the "spillage".
As noted by tpe handling is the least important criteria in buying a vehicle for my needs. My driving is in two straight lines one 73 mi North then one 73 miles South both at 62 mph max ( 7 mi over the limit ).
Handling is of no concern whatsoever. Fuel economy is the primary concern.
Comments
I'd rather get a $500 electric bill vs. a $1,000 gas bill!!
http://edition.cnn.com/2005/TECH/03/30/spark.air.car/
Sounds interesting!
Let me get this straight: the car is a hybrid but instead of an ICE running on conventional fuel, the 48 volt batteries on board run an air compressor, the compressed air is pumped through the engine making the pistons work thereby driving the car at low speed, until the car reaches a higher speed where the regular electric motor kicks in?
This is just so wrong on so many levels I don't even know where to begin.....
Wouldn't it be more EFFICIENT to simply let the batteries run the electric motor propelling the car directly? Why go through all this rigamoro with an on-board compressor, air tanks, and ICE? One could just chunk all the extra mass (ICE,compressor, tanks, etc. etc. etc.) thereby increasing performance OR replace the mass with more batteries adding range. Not to mention the fact that typically electric motors are MOST efficient at LOW vehicle speeds, precisely the speed that the 'air motor' is supposed to be helping? Whaaaaaaa?????
I had to check twice to make sure that thing wasn't posted on April 1.....
This guy figures the amount of energy you actually use to propel the car runs about $0.40/KW-hr. About 4 times your electric rate. Of course road taxes are in there, which would have to be charged to an electric vehicle in some way - so drop the gasoline cost closer to $0.30/KW-hr for the true cost of the fuel.
But of course the problem with batteries is energy storage, weight, limited range, and time tto recharge the vehicle. If you want to take a 500 mile trip, and your electric car range is 200 miles, motels are going to have quite a good business.
You MIGHT need one heck of a circuit breaker!
Here's what I get for coming right in from mowing the lawn and posting... a silly thought... the "slot car lane" for EV's with electric power supplied at ground level and pickups on the car to grab that power.
I TOLD you it was a silly thought... but then again, there were all those electric trolleys with overhead wires too!
It would be an interesting concept. Make the traffic on the highways sort of like a "train" that you add your car to. Sit back, relax and enjoy the view for a while!
I believe Chrysler did try before Toyota, and felt the buyers would not pony up the price Premium. The powers that be at Chrysler did not want to risk a bomb. Plus the battery technology was not available before the Prius or Insight hit the market. It is easy to point fingers and say why didn't they do this or that. I think it was just a case of timing. And so far the Prius is the only BIG hybrid hit.
Let's keep this one to a discussion of how the technology might advance rather than a discussion of specific makes and models.
That is not a Sienna. The US version is larger and heavier, as the article points out. A hybrid sienna is unlikely to be much better at MPG than a Hybrid Highlander. A bit better, due to the aerodynamics, but nothing like the Prius or Civic, and probably not enough to earn a ROI over 150K miles.
They leased one to a family here in SoCal last month. About $600 per month, as I recall.
Not if it has some catastrophic problem. How safe are the hydrogen cells if hit real hard in a collision? The only advantage I see is bragging rights.
And really, what are the chances or something catastrophic happening to one particular vehicle?
Science marches on!
One more point from an earlier post about hybrids being potentially expensive to repair down the road past warrantee....Anyone notice lately "digital cameras" drastic drop in price since just a few years ago when they were sky-high? I remember my 1st digial watch I purchased @ SEARS for $220.00 just to be the first to have one. Now look.....They give them away in cereal boxes and @ Mcdonald's with a kids meal. The components that, at present, are costly on the Prius will, no doubt, see a reduction in cost in the near future. Why not? Everything else electronic has. Just keep the faith baby.
Railroadjames(Hybrids R Smart)
http://www.labusinessjournal.com/article.asp?aID=995462202.8723971.1166529.5821916.2852667- .116&aID2=89724
Burning oil to create hydrogen (less efficiently than if it were just made into gas and placed in the tank) gets us nowhere by itself. The vast majority of folks that have heard of hydrogen fuel have no clue about this. At least the LABJ story actually mentions it.
The "midlife crisis sports car" for Generation Xers in 2012 - The Alessandro Volta !!!
( the oldest Generation Xers will turn 47 in 2012 )
PS
I think this belongs in "future hybrids" forum - I'm moving my post...
These will also make the plugin hybrid more affordable and they are coming next year from calcars.com and Edrive.
Can you save 100+ mpg ?
Jim
MIT Geniuses at it again
Researchers at MIT say they can boost mileage in cars by as much as 30 percent, depending on the car, by a carefully planned injection of ethanol in the cylinder.
The engine, which is only about half the size of a conventional gas engine, could be on the market in about five years and could add about $1,000 to the cost of a car. That's less than the $3,000 to $5,000 added by a hybrid engine. Thus, consumers will recover the cost more quickly (because the engine uses less gas) and get about the same mileage as a hybrid.
If all of today's engines had the technology, MIT estimates, it could cut U.S. auto fuel consumption from 140 billion gallons to 110 billion gallons annually.
The ethanol injection suppresses the spontaneous combustion inside the cylinder. Spontaneous combustion creates an aggravating knocking sound, but with the knock eliminated, engine manufacturers can then adopt two design conventions common in diesel engines. With one, the engine can be highly turbocharged, which means that more air and fuel can be squeezed into the chamber.
In addition to the Saturn Vue, GM plans 11 other hybrid models over the next few years, including full-size SUVs such as the Chevrolet Tahoe and pickups such as the GMC Sierra, both redesigned this year.
Toyota sold 235,000 hybrids worldwide last year, and said in June it plans to double its hybrid models to 14 by early in the next decade and sell 1 million of them annually as early as 2010. GM's first true hybrid, the Saturn Vue Greenline, went on sale this month.
Looks like the "hybrid war" is ON BABY !!! :shades:
Toyota is planning on expanding the Prius range with several new body-styles based on the trendy hybrid sedan. Currently Toyota is considering adding a wagon and a Smart-style city-car, with the possibility of a crossover hybrid utility vehicle in the future.
The additional models will form the bulk of Toyota's campaign of selling one million hybrids worldwide. To that end, Toyota hopes to triple the number of hybrids it sells in the US, with the American market accounting for an anticipated half of that million-car target.
We could expect the wagon to look essentially the same as the current sedan, only with a roof extending rearwards over the expanded cargo area, while the city-car will likely be an all-but-completely new model, riding on a much shorter wheelbase but with styling that immediately associates it with the rest of the Prius range.
I have been a posting member here for only two years (since 10/18/2004) and reading since 2003....just a newb, I know..... :P
The vast majority of cars sold in the EU are not performance vehicles, but more the type Larsb would appreciate....small, cramped, noisy and good on fuel economy.....
R&T represents the perspective of the driving enthusiast. Consumer Reports tested the Prius and rated it's handling as competent, meaning average. Their biggest complaint was vague steering. So you're correct. The handling isn't great but you've got to realize that isn't a high priority for a lot of people. For this group its a non-factor.
Chances are if you are driving any vehicle near the limits of its handling capabilities you better hope the cop you whiz by is taking one of his donut breaks.
Anyone may unexpectedly find themselves operating at or near a vehicle's (or their own) limits when a child, animal or another vehicle darts into their path. That's not the time to begin to consider handling.
What exactly makes them more credible? The fact that they are supported by advertising dollars received largely from the manufacturers of the vehicles they are testing?
Anyone may unexpectedly find themselves operating at or near a vehicle's (or their own) limits when a child, animal or another vehicle darts into their path. That's not the time to begin to consider handling.
Defensive, responsible driving habits can significantly reduce the need to make any kind of emergency manuever. Regardless, is the Prius less capable of avoiding an accident than most SUVs or trucks?
What would you consider the middle? I don't think the hybrids have hit the middle of the road buyer. The TCH is close and larsb seems happy in that car. Still a little pricey for the average Camry buyer. That being the LE model 4 cylinder. They are selling for about $21k on average.
And that's okay, many of us differ with you there, just as we differ with the electric cart crowd on what is viable, commercially, to sell.
What is interesting, or will be, is to see what direction the manufacturers go in. If history is an indicator, it will be several directions at once, without anyone being totally happy. Personally I think the oil straw is going to have to be nearly empty before the financially strapped domestic industry changes. Foreign-owned companies have a huge market in the third-world that is attractive to them, and we will benefit from the "spillage".
Handling is of no concern whatsoever. Fuel economy is the primary concern.