Yup, and then the hosts go off on a delete-a-thon. Just so we're clear: off-topic posts in the hybrids discussions will be removed without notice.
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because this is an automotive forum, autos are discussed,,,,as a site, we don't cover motorcycles or scooters. A passing mention is fine, but a derailment of the discussion onto this is not.
326 was incorrectly deleted. It talked about future safety by lower height of SUV hybrids to reduce rollover, since most SUVs are not really used off-road.
Shame, but too bad. If everyone will simply stay on topic and post civilly, it won't be an issue. Please move back on topic.
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quote-"326 was incorrectly deleted. It talked about future safety by lower height of SUV hybrids to reduce rollover, since most SUVs are not really used off-road."-end
Kirstie, that sounds like it was "on topic" to me........?????????
Why is it okay to relish the hardship of others, when such hardship is in the form of gas bills?? Should some poor sobs in India or China have a SMILE too when you get killed in a car accident? Just because they don't own cars. Your 7.8gal is infinite times worse to the environment than their mode of transportatin: bicycle and walk. $14.22 can be the entire week's income for them. Just for moving around?? Talk about being wasteful.
The future of hybrids will be much more performance oriented than they have been so far. Hybrid SUV's with sports-car like performance is what most people really want. It is only economic hardship and human misery (by degrees) that prevents people having their desire fulfilled.
I think the the future of Hybrids will to some extent depend on the openmindedness of people to accept change.
There will always be early innovators which will about , at least temporarily, anything new. Low emissions, while it attracts a small zealous set, will not be enough to drive hybrid technology to the masses.
When you have something new, there is always fear, fear of change. The current fear is the unknown life-span of the traction batteries. A second fear that some have is will they truly hold their MSRP value and high resale they currently demand. There are two factors: (1) Limited supply commands high price and (2) new technology could completely obsolete the current IMA and HSD technology.
To move forward with any product, Hybrids and others, there has to be a large degree of openmindedness. People are in a learning stage and will have a lot of different views and opinions. Major car manufacturer's are beginning to realize that hybrids might be the big future seller and they are beginning to offer products with the word hybrid in their name. However, saying hybrid right now is like saying "diet" or "low fat", it doesn't have any real meaning.
However, it looks like gas prices will continue to remain at current levels or increase. Increase might be slowed or continue to rise dramatically as we have seen in the past year. Becuase of this people are looking for higher mileage cars. Sunk cost, length of ownership and fear of unknown gas prices to to make one more closeminded. Let's take them one at a time:
Sunk cost : Even though most Hybrids currently cost about $3,000 more than equivalent non-hybrid cars, this seems to be only a minor factor in people's decision to purchase.
Length of Ownership: Even though a typical owner only keeps a car 3-5 years and the payout on the additional hybrid cost is around 7+ years. consumers say I will keep this car longer. Yeah right!
fear of unknown gas prices: This is probably the biggest factor. Gas price in the US could easily got to $3.00 per gallon short term. Even if it doesn't the price of oil has dropped in the last couple of weeks, but gas prices have not ratchetted down. If you look out for even just 5 years with a moderate increase of 15% per year you find some alarming trends:
2004 (base) = $2.00 per gallon 2009 = $4.00
I definitely think gas price will drive hybrid technology development and the current technology and battery density technology will improve dramatically. This will probably obsolete today's technology in the 3-5 year time frame ,will before it pays out.
This was meant to be an opinion editorial of my own and was meant to be on topic and to not personally attack anyone. If this message offends anyone, I apologize in advance.
If you look out for even just 5 years with a moderate increase of 15% per year you find some alarming trends: 2004 (base) = $2.00 per gallon 2009 = $4.00
You mean you find some alarming projected trends, not to be confused with actual trends. There's a rough table here showing historical national averages, adjusted for inflation, and for those of you who love charts (don't lie - some of you do!), here's one with more recent and more frequently graphed data. Prices have been all over the place, so if one can make a mathematical projection, it's certainly beyond my skills.
So the fear may yet be real or perceived. Question: If gas prices suddenly plummeted, do you think we'd see a corresponding drop in sales of hybrids, or in interest in hybrids? I tend to think that the other reasons for purchasing hybrids might keep demand high. What do you think?
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If you will look at the reference articles they are adjusted for inflation. If one could predict future inflation, CPI, and COLI then one could be a millionaire.
As you can see from the reference article prices are all over the place, because there are too many factors and inflation adjusting is just one.
Linear trending is just that a linear trend and does not follow real life at all!
Look at your most recent example from after Gulf war to what is shown, then extrapolate that to the current price of around $2.07 per gallon. Draw a straight line with what is shown and you very easily get to over $3.00 in the next several years. and beyond that additional increase to $3-4.00 in five years is certainly within the realm of possbility.
Only my opinion , but I see a siginificant increase in the price of gas in the next decade in the U.S.A. You may disagee, but as with the rules of Edmunds townhall, disagree respectfully with my content and opinion and not with me.
Again this is only my opinion and may not reflect what actaully takes place in the future and may not agree with your opinion.
OK, gotcha! I misunderstood that you were basing the rate on personal opinion, and was wondering what source you were drawing from.
However, my other question stands - if gas prices were to unexpectedly plummet, do you think we'd see a major drop-off in the demand for hybrids?
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If the gas prices plummeted right now, I think people would go back to SUVs and larger vehicles and sales would fall off somewhat on Hybrids.
However, If gas prices remain where they are for at least 6 months, until more people beyond "INNOVATORS", begin acquiring hybrids , then I believe hybrids will stay. Hover, there will probably be a much more technologically advanced hybrid introduced in the next 3-5 years. Remember, this is still a developing science. The IMA is good for highway mileage. The HSD is good for suburban mileage, but suffers on the highway. Maybe their is a new form that combines the best of both!
Marketing Model:
Innovators: First 5%-10% that adopt the product Early adopters: Next 10-15% Early Majority: Next 30% Late Majority: Next 30% Laggards: Last 20%
Right now the transition is from innovators to early adopters. If the Hybrid gets to the late early adopter stage or the early majority stage, before and if a gas plummet price should occur, then there will be very little impact on hybrid sales.
One other item that can significantly impact hybrids are diesel engines. When low sulphur becomes available/ required in U.S.A. high mpg diesels ( non-hybrid and hybrid) will certainly reduce the demand for the current gasoline-electric hybrids.
One can home that more and more hybrids come to market. Price will come down to a more reasonable economically dictated level.
If gas prices suddenly plummeted, do you think we'd see a corresponding drop in sales of hybrids, or in interest in hybrids? I tend to think that the other reasons for purchasing hybrids might keep demand high. What do you think?
I don't think you would see much difference. The reason being is none of the manufacturers are making an effort to build more than the current demand. 20k cars in a model year is nothing to GM, Ford, Honda or Toyota. Toyota says they will build more next year. The truth is they do not intend to even get started on additional manufacturing facilities until the middle of 2005. A lot could happen between now and then. If the situation in Iraq is stable the price of oil will go back to under $30 per barrel and we will be looking at gas for less than I was paying in High School (1960). The same cannot be said for the price of automobiles. Maybe people will become more environmentally conscious and keep their vehicles for 15 years. That would go a long way to cutting back on pollution. The tiny bit less pollution that the hybrids are contributing is far outweighed by dumping vehicles after 3-5 years of use.
Toyota has made announcements on just about every vehicle they make becoming hybrid. I think this is just trying to draw attention away from the Accord that will beat them to market, if HAH makes the Dec. 2004 rollout. Why would they build the Camry as a hybrid. All the Prius owners claim the Prius has as much room for passengers and stuff. It seems they would work on getting the car they have perfected. Such as handling and performance. Prius has the name recognition as the hybrid to beat. They are having trouble getting the two HSD SUVs they promised over a year ago to work. They are losing credibility with their customers with all the gouging and missed rollout dates.
Yep Toyota has said most of its vehicles will be available as a hybrid and it seems to be happening so why not a Camry hybrid ? Yea its similiar to the Prius but different enough to warrant its own nameplate. I agree with you on the HAH, it (the HAH) must worry them cause they have no answer for it.
Gasoline at $2.06/gallon and diesel at $2.49/gallon! Yep, my latest observation while I was in Seattle area. I’m sure addition of ULSD will only add to the cost of diesel, at it stands now, diesel is 20% more expensive.
I don't know about smaller towns, but you can almost always find a new HCH for sale in Phoenix. And Voltsvagen has how many TDI cars available? Three?
That is Arizona. In CA the hybrids are all that we have. As far as the HCH it has a waiting list in San Diego dealerships just like the Prius. With the dealer I talked to adding $1000 to MSRP for the HCH. That is the deposit to get on the wait list. I can buy a Ford F250 diesel but not a VW TDI or a Mercedes E320 CDI. That is how screwed up CARB is.
If the Honda Accord Hybrid is as popular as the Prius watch the sleazy dealers take advantage of the situation. The dealers only get away with their prices because IDIOTS fork over their money to buy overpriced goods. It's plain and simple. You have to be a total MORON to pay $5,000 over sticker for a Prius. I sense that there will be a great deal of interest in this vehicle, hence the furtherence of the hybrid technology. It's going to be an interesting decade.
The reason I compare Prius and RX-8 sales because I remember a discussion where someone said hybrids are going to flop like rotary engines.
I don't think the RX8 is a failure because of the rotary engine. The rotary is a very smooth high performance engine. The problem is that Mazda put it in an absolutely butt ugly sports car. I would say that Prius is getting close to market saturation. It is getting easier to find them without any wait. It is a niche car and will never reach the sales status of the Camry or Accord. Mainly because Toyota and Honda are in business for one reason to make money. The Prius will never be a big money maker.
Gagrice...Where to begin...1st The RX8 is a disapointment as far as looks to most but it invaribly gets rave reviews for performance and handling and high marks for keeping the costs down. 2nd The Prius is getting easier to buy in many places still at LIST price while U.S. cars dealers are scampering to sell their surplus of cars with all kinds of gimicks (rebates-0% interests- etc.). 3rd Honda & Toyota may be in business to make money but they also put out a quality product that they are quite proud of (case in point PRIUS). Finally,you said "the Prius will never be a big money maker"...Anyone who says that is not aware of all the tremendous praise and awards directed towards the PRIUS and satisfied owners. Culliganman (still happy saving $$)
Finally,you said "the Prius will never be a big money maker"...Anyone who says that is not aware of all the tremendous praise and awards directed towards the PRIUS and satisfied owners.
You are right that the Prius has gotten Praise, awards and customers are very satisfied. That has nothing to do with making a profit on a car. There is no way that the Prius is generating the same revenue for Toyota that the Camry does. If it was they would have jumped up and produced as many as they could sell. They are dragging their feet and if you cannot see that your not looking at the facts.
I'm curious how it is that you contend Toyota is dragging their feet when they've upped production nearly 100% (we all know why). Can you name one other company that has had the increase in production that Toyota has? Foremost I would like to remind everyone that this Hybrid Prius is GREEN (like 1/10th the pollutions of the average "other" car) while getting in the neighborhood of 48 mpg's. So tell me, what YOU think makes for a profit making car? I'm curious. Culliganman (Hybrid lovebug)
I'm curious how it is that you contend Toyota is dragging their feet when they've upped production nearly 100%
They have NOT upped production. They said they plan to up production in 2005. They only reallocated sales of the Prius from Japan to the USA. I believe they are losing money on the Prius otherwise why the sudden loss after so many years of excessive profits? Batteries and electric motors are very expensive.....
Toyota Motor Corp., the world's most profitable car maker, posted a surprise drop in quarterly profits Monday despite robust overseas sales growth as a strong yen and rising materials costs took their toll.
Foremost I would like to remind everyone that this Hybrid Prius is GREEN (like 1/10th the pollutions of the average "other" car
That is not true. The Toyota Camry 4 cylinder has the same SULEVII rating as the Prius. Several other vehicles carry the same 10 rating. It is slightly better than the Camry on greenhouse gas and not as good as a few other vehicles. It is good but it still pollutes.
O.K. As you said in your comparitive your right but I was comparing "OTHERS" meaning the average V8 SUV that I have heard is about a 1/10th comparitively. I'm still curious as to what your idea of a great car is? Could it be a hybrid other than the Prius? These being the years of technology and great strides in the automotive industry? Care to share what you drive while your at it. Culliganman(GO-B-4)
I'm still curious as to what your idea of a great car is?
That is a good question. I don't believe I have ever owned or ridden in anything I considered "Great". I like my 1999 Suburban for some things. Mileage not being one of them. I like our 1990 Lexus LS400. It still gets 19/27 mpg and is nearly as clean burning as the new Lexus LS430. What I need is a good small PU that gets 45-50 mpg. I know they are available in most of the world except the good ol' USA. I drove a Prius and thought it was cool. I liked the silence. I don't think I would ever buy one as it does not fit much of my needs in a vehicle. I make lots little short trips under 3 miles to the Home depot and store. Most of the time the Suburban is overkill so I take our old 1990 Mazda 626. To buy a new vehicle that would not enhance the vehicles we now have would be a gigantic waste of money. I'm real skeptical of your great strides in the automotive industry. I just don't see it. I had an old 1951 Studebaker V8 that got 22 mpg all the time. When the average smaller sedan only gets 26 combined 53 years later where's the progress. I do think the Insight is an ideal commuter car for all the yoyo's driving single to work 20 miles every day. If, Lord forbid, I was ever in that position I would strongly look at the Honda Insight.
1) I know hybrids are our future, but something that's bugged me for some time - does no one else remember the Honda Civic HF of the mid-80's, that got something like 50MPG? Granted, it was an extremely light 2-seater, but it wasn't a hybrid at all!! Why is it that 20 years later, everybody is gaa-gaa about hybrid cars which barely beat the Civic HF? Shouldn't the industry be head and shoulders above these figures by now???
2) I have to think gasoline prices are going to increase dramatically here in the U.S. over the next year or so - in the past, oil prices would increase slightly, and you'd see an increase at the pumps. Oil prices have almost doubled recently, yet the price at the pump is fairly stable (the price actually dropped 4-5 cents here this week). So, for the sake of argument, let's say gas it $3 per gallon next summer (which isn't far-fetched, when prices are close to $7 per gallon in Europe). If your an automobile manufacturer wanting to take advantage of this situation, would it be quicker/easier/cheaper to A) design a new hybrid vehicle from scratch, or retrofit a current design to accomodate a hybrid drivetrain? I've got to think "B" is the answer; if you took a "tired" design (say the Buick Century) and quickly retrofit it as a hybrid, it would not only allow you to get a few more years out of a body style, but also allow you to take advantage of the situation without having to "reinvent the wheel" as it were. I guess my question is, it such a retrofit even feasible?
Why is it that 20 years later, everybody is gaa-gaa about hybrid cars which barely beat the Civic HF?
I have asked that same question several times. I get vague excuses, no solid reasons. It was a great little car. Of course the Civic is about twice as big now. Not sure why. I am not sure your fears of $3 gas are well founded. Europeans have been gouged by their respective governments for a long time. They pay the same for oil as we do. It is the taxes that kick it up to $5 plus per gallon. If the Iraq mess gets stable oil will go back to $30 a barrel and our prices will stay under $2 per gallon for the next several years.
I am curious what kind of hybrid scheme will come out next. Just waiting to be convinced it is really practical.
I have asked that same question several times. I get vague excuses, no solid reasons. It was a great little car. Of course the Civic is about twice as big now. Not sure why.
Not paying attention. :-)
Going back to 1988, I recall CRX HF but not Civic HF. A 1850 lb. two-seater designed for fuel economy better deliver that. Over a decade later, the 62 HP 1.5-liter I-4 designed for fuel economy has been replaced by 86 HP 1.3-liter I-4 designed for the same. Things have not been stagnant in the area of improving fuel economy and emissions.
But, demand for improved safety, comfort and features hasn’t been either! Civic LX could do away with just about everything as an optional feature including air conditioning and cassette player. Today, people expect AC and CD player to be standard! Stuff adds to the weight, as does safety.
Back then, Civic LX weighed in at 2140 lb (features, especially AC will add substantial weight) and today, the more comfortable Civic LX loads up at 2500 lb. The power output has grown from 92 HP in 1988 to 115 HP in 2001+ version. Fuel economy hasn’t changed much (33/37 mpg to 32/38 mpg). This is with third redesign since 1988.
If you really want to compare Civic from that era to technology available now, wait for Jazz/Fit. And I will wait to see what Jazz Hybrid could do!
My last post may have covered your first question. As far as second question is concerned, Honda’s IMA is just that. It will fit any existing drive train. HCH uses the fuel efficient i-DSI engine (also the base engine in Jazz/Fit around the world). Part of the engine’s flywheel has been replaced by the brushless DC motor as a part of the IMA system. VTEC was also added but only to control cylinder deactivation during deceleration. Accord V6 has now received the same treatment. If Honda chooses to, they can put this variation of IMA in just about any vehicle they make. So, it wouldn’t take much to see a Hybrid Odyssey/Pilot/MDX or RL/TL/TSX/RSX either. Although, in case of Acura, I suspect, we might see something more powerful and pronounced.
First off, it was the CRX HF I was thinking of from the '80's - and I agree that the current Civic Hybrid is a much more practical, useful (and safer) car than the 2-seat CRX HF.
Secondly, I did an Excel analysis , comparing a Chevy Impala ($20,000 @ 23 MPG avg.) vs. a Civic Hybrid ($20,000 @ 47 MPG avg.) vs. a Prius ($20,000 @ 55 MPG avg.); looking purely at things from an economic standpoint (not factoring in the environmental/social benefits of hybrid technology).
At $2 per gallon, the cost-per-mile comparison (including the price of the car; based on driving 100,000 miles) looks like this:
Impala - 29 cents per mile Civic Hybrid - 24 cents per mile Prius - 24 cents per mile
So in this case, if I buy an Impala vs. a hybrid, it will cost me 5 cents more per mile, or $5,000 over the course of 100,000 miles. However, the Impala is a larger car than either hybrid; I could buy a cheaper non-hybrid that would be comparable in size, cost less, and probably get better mileage than the Impala, which would in turn negate the advantage of the hybrid's higher cost (I used the Impala for comparison because that's what I drive). Granted, there's a tax break for buying a hybrid; but there's also the future expense of replacing batteries in a hybrid at some point - so I figure those two cancel each other out.
Now, if gas jumps to $3 per gallon, the figures look like this: Impala - 33 cents per mile Civic Hybrid - 26 cents per mile Prius - 25 cents per mile Thus it will cost me 7-8 cents per mile more to drive the Impala, or $7,-8,000 over 100,000 miles. Even if I buy a cheaper/smaller vehicle at this point, I'd save some money buying a hybrid, so there might be some economic advantage to buying one.
Basically as I see it, buying a hybrid today over a comparably sized (but cheaper) vehicle only makes economic sense as a hedge against higher gas prices - If gas prices stay the same, the premium you pay for the hybrid will likely never be recouped. If the price of the technology comes down, or the price of fuel goes up, then hybrids make economic sense.
The other thing you begin to realize when you look at the numbers is how the benefit of improved mileage decreases after a certain level. For instance, the cost-per-mile average for the Civic Hybrid (@ 47 MPG) and the Prius (@ 55 MPG) don't really deviate at the 100,000 mark until the price of gas hits $3.00 per gallon; at which point the Prius is one penny cheaper per mile. If gas got to be $6 per gallon, the Prius would only save two cents per mile over the Civic (but 15 cents-per-mile over the Impala!!). Other than bragging rights for advertising purposes, the advantage of a 50 MPG car over a 40 MPG car are really minimal (at least for the foreseeable future, assuming gasoline doesn't hit double-digits per gallon).
That's why I think you'll see more efforts at using hybrid technology in trucks, SUVs, and vans - bumping a heavy vehicle from 12 MPG to 15 is a big deal - even though it's "only" 3 MPG, that's a 20% improvement. Efforts on this end of the spectrum will do more for the environment than will pushing for improved mileage on small cars on the upper end of the range.
The power output has grown from 92 HP in 1988 to 115 HP in 2001+ version. Fuel economy hasn’t changed much (33/37 mpg to 32/38 mpg). This is with third redesign since 1988.
One correction the Honda Civic CRX HF in 1988 was a 1.5l 4 cylinder that was rated by the EPA at 50/56 mpg for a combined 52 mpg. I don't know the difference in weight. I can tell you one thing the CRX I borrowed from a friend back then ran like a scalded ape and handled great. Nothing Honda has with just ICE is close today....
The numbers I quoted above were for Civic LX sedan to compare to current Civic. CRX had a different orientation to be compared to anything Honda currently offers in NA at the moment, besides Insight.
All trims of CRX had 1.5-liter engine with different outputs. HF was the lightest (1833 lb) and least powerful trim with just 62 HP. Obviously focus was entirely on fuel economy. The more mainstream offering of CRX had 92 HP (like Civic LX sedan) and was rated at 34/39 mpg. CRX Si had 105 HP with a fuel economy rating of 29/36 mpg.
Now, you made an interesting comment: “Nothing Honda has with just ICE is close today....”
Well, true in North America, but could you guess why? But, it would be worthwhile to note that Honda now offers 117 HP Civic HX coupe that is rated 36/44 mpg, better than all but the CRX HF.
As far as the HF is concerned, Honda didn’t offer the 62 HP engine in Japanese market so I couldn’t get details to compare to Honda Fit. The most fuel economical CRX in Japanese market (in 1988) was powered by an 82 HP 1.3-liter engine. In Japanese (10.15) mode, the vehicle was rated at 20 km/liter.
Today, Honda offers a much more practical 2200 lb. 5-door hatchback with two engines in Honda Fit: 1.3/I-4 i-DSI delivering 86 HP / 23 km/liter 1.5/I-4 VTEC delivering 110 HP / 20 km/liter
So, Honda HAS something in place, just not offered in North American market at the moment. But that may not be true forever with the rumors of Fit/Jazz launch.
That being said, the fuel efficient 1.3/I-4 used in Fit/Jazz is the main power plant that motivates Civic Hybrid. Coincidentally, without IMA, HCH would have similar weight to power ratio as CRX HF.
The fuel economy and performance potential of Jazz/Fit could make for a nice recipe for a low cost hybrid that is mainstream and practical to boot!
It is obvious you know a lot more about Honda cars than I do. Maybe you can answer this. WHY did they quit importing the CRX and CRX HF? They were very popular and I still see them on the roads today.
CRX was lifted off the market and replaced by DelSol (in 1992?). However, HF tradition continued in a different form, Civic VX. This was a more powerful little hatchback with 92 HP (compared to just 62 HP in CRX HF) and had an impress fuel economy rating of 48/55 mpg (slightly down from the rating for CRX HF). Civic CX was a cheaper alternative with 70 HP 1.5, at 42/46 mpg.
However, these little hatchbacks didn’t last forever. I suspect they weren’t selling enough of these, and had a reason to take them off the market. Civic HX coupe eventually took over.
The purpose of adding a battery to a hybrid is NOT to increase fuel economy. As many already pointed out, you could get the same fuel economy with a tiny 60 hp car.
The purpose of the battery is to give the tiny 60 hp car better performance... i.e. to decrease 0-60 acceleration from ~15 to just ~10 seconds.
As for being "too complicated" the Honda Hybrids are not. They are exactly the same as any other car, but they added an Electric Motor between the engine & the transmission. It doesn't get any more simplistic than that.
I'd like to add my 2 cents here if you don't mind. I too liked the CRX's. They were stylish and quite fuel efficient. There was another Honda that earlier started the whole thing here in the states....(The Honda 600 Coupe). New on the scene and able to handle 4 people reasonably well (2dr only), it was amazingly quick and durable. I've often wondered why Honda pulled the plug on this little beauty too. Maybe if fuel had gone up back then it would not have bit the dust. Of course the Civic was just around the corner. One other thing about the 600 Coupe..it had hard to find 10" wheels and an amazing instant heater due to an air cooled itty-bitty 2 cyl. engine. One last thing..If I could find a cherry CRX or 600 Coupe I'd buy it. Culliganman (memories of old)
Please note the new discussion Advanced Course in Hybrid Engineering. This is the place to discuss all the techno info about Hybrids for the hardcores.
AMC: >>>> All Makes Combined >>>> A Major Cost >>>> A Mutated Car >>>> A Morons Car >>>> Another Major Catastrophe >>>> >>>> AUDI: >>>> Another Ugly Deutsche Invention >>>> Always Undermining Deutsche Intelligence >>>> Automobile Unsafe Designs, Inc. >>>> >>>> BMW: >>>> Big Money Works >>>> Brutal Money Waster >>>> Break My Window >>>> Break My Windshield >>>> Babbling Mechanical Wench >>>> Beastly Monstrous Wonder >>>> Beautiful Masterpieces on Wheels >>>> Beautiful Mechanical Wonder >>>> Barely Moving Wreck >>>> Big Money Waste >>>> Big Money. Why? >>>> Big Money Works >>>> Born Moderately Wealthy >>>> Breaks Most Wrenches >>>> Bring More Wrenches >>>> Brings Me Women >>>> Brings More Women >>>> Broken Money Waster >>>> Broke My Wallet >>>> Broken Monstrous Wonder >>>> Bumbling Mechanical Wretch >>>> Blasphemous Motorized Wreck >>>> >>>> CHEVROLET: >>>> Can Hear Every Valve Rap On Long Extended Trips >>>> Cheap, Hardly Efficient, Virtually Runs On Luck Every Time >>>> Cracked Heads, Every Valve Rattles, Oil Leaks Every Time >>>> Constantly Having Every Vehicle Recalled Over Lousy Engineering Techniques >>>> >>>> DODGE: >>>> Drips Oil & Drops Grease Everywhere >>>> Damn Old Dirty Gas Eater >>>> Dead Old Dog Going East >>>> Dead On Day Guarantee Expires >>>> Dead On Delivery, Go Easy >>>> Dead On Delivery, Guarantee Expired >>>> Dead Or Dying Garbage Emitter >>>> Dear Old Dads Garage Experiment >>>> Daily Overhauls Do Get Expensive >>>> >>>> EDSEL: >>>> Every Day Something Else Leaks >>>> >>>> FORD: >>>> Fix Or Repair Daily >>>> Found On Road Dead >>>> First On Race Day >>>> First On Recall Day >>>> Fabricated Of Refried Dung >>>> Fails On Rainy Days >>>> Fantastically Orgasmic Realistic Dream >>>> Fatally Obese Redneck Driver >>>> Fault Of R&D >>>> Finally Obsolete Racing Device >>>> Fireball On Rear Denting >>>> First On Road to Dump >>>> First On Rust and Deterioration >>>> Fix Or Recycle Dilemma >>>> Flipping Over Results in Death >>>> Flipped Over Roadside Disaster >>>> Follow Our Rusty Dogsled >>>> Foot On Road Decelerates >>>> Forced On Reluctant Drivers >>>> Formed Of Rejected DNA >>>> Forwarded Once; Return Denied >>>> Forward Only; Reverse Defective >>>> Forlorn, Old, Ratridden Dustbin >>>> Fork Over Repair Dough >>>> Fouled Out Re-done Dodge >>>> Frequent Overhaul, Rapid Deterioration >>>> Free Or Reduced Drastically >>>> Frequent Opinion: Really Disappointed >>>> Fumes and Odors Readily Detectable >>>> Funny Old Rattling Dump >>>> (backwards) Driver Returns On Foot >>>> >>>> GEO: >>>> Good Engineering Overlooked >>>> >>>> GM: >>>> General Maintenance >>>> Great Mistake >>>> Garbage Motors >>>> Generally Miserable >>>> Grossly Misconceived >>>> Gluteus Maximus >>>> >>>> GMC: >>>> Garage Man's Companion >>>> Gotta Mechanic Coming? >>>> Generally Mediocre Cars >>>> Get More Chicks >>>> Gets Mechanics Crazy >>>> Gods Mechanical Curse >>>> Got More Crap >>>> Great Mountain Climber >>>> Great Motor Car >>>> >>>> GTO: >>>> Gas, Tires, Oil >>>> >>>> HONDA: >>>> Hang On, Not Done Accelerating >>>> Hallmark Of Non-Descript Automobiles >>>> Hallmark Of Non-Destructable Automobiles >>>> >>>> JEEP: >>>> Just Eats Every Part >>>> Junk Engineering Executed Poorly >>>> >>>> MG: >>>> Money Guzzler >>>> >>>> MGB: >>>> Might Go Backwards >>>> >>>> MGF: >>>> Might Go Forward >>>> >>>> MIATA: >>>> My Intention: Always To Accelerate >>>> >>>> MOPAR: >>>> Many Odd Parts Arranged Randomly >>>> Miscellaneous Oddball Parts Assembled Ridiculously >>>> Most Often Passed At Races >>>> Mostly Old Parts And Rust >>>> Move Over People Are Racing >>>> Move Over Plymouth Approaching Rapidly >>>> My Old Pig Ain't Running >>>> My Only Problems Are Repairs >>>> >>>> MUSTANG: >>>> Motor Under Strain, Transmission Almost No Good >>>> >>>> OLDSMOBILE: >>>> Overpriced, Leisurely Driven Sedan Made Of Buick's Irregular Leftover >>>> Equipment >>>> >>>> PINTO: >>>> Put In Nickel To Operate >>>> Paid Inspector Nicely To Overlook >>>> >>>> PLYMOUTH: >>>> Please Leave Your Money Out Under The Hood >>>> >>>> PONTIAC: >>>> Poor Old Numbskull Thinks Its A Cadillac >>>> >>>> PORSCHE: >>>> Proof Of Rich Spoiled Children Having Everything >>>> >>>> SAAB: >>>> Send Another Automobile Back >>>> Swedish Automobiles Always Breakdown >>>> Sad Attempt At Beauty >>>> Sorry Auto, Always Broken >>>> Shape Appears [non-permissible content removed]-Backwards >>>> >>>> SUBARU: Screwed Up Beyond All Repair Usually >>>> >>>> TOYOTA: >>>> Torturous On Your Old Tired [non-permissible content removed] >>>> The One You Ought To Avoid >>>> >>>> TRIUMPH: >>>> This Really Is Unreliable Man, Please Help! >>>> Tried Repairing It Until My Parts Hurt!
Or is this the future ? - snip - Ecologically minded state leaders are hoping to steer Arkansas toward cleaner air with a push to replace government vehicles with fuel-efficient hybrid cars. Phasing in hybrids to Arkansas’ public fleets has been slow going so far, with only a handful of the gasoline-and-electricitypowered vehicles on the road for government business. That’s partly because the Department of Finance and Administration doesn’t yet have hybrids on its procurement list, a roster of goods that can be had for government use at reduced prices. http://www.nwanews.com/story_print.php?paper=adg&News=section- - &storyid=100825
Two-Mode Full Hybrid Propulsion System sure sounds impressive but when might we see one if the "definitive agreement" won't be out till early next year ? - snip - Detroit/Stuttgart – DaimlerChrysler AG (DCX) and General Motors Corporation (GM) today announced a cooperative effort that will advance the state of hybrid technology to benefit their customers, and the environment. The companies plan to work together to develop a two-mode full hybrid propulsion architecture for applications in GM, Chrysler Group and Mercedes Car Group vehicles. Variants planned include rear- and front-wheel-drive versions for cars, trucks and other vehicles. This technology is expected to improve acceleration performance while also improving vehicle fuel economy and range significantly http://tinyurl.com/3q3yt
What exactly do they mean by "Two-mode full hybrid propulsion".
Does it mean that the vehicle will use more hp when loaded fully than when empty.
If this is it, then it can be applied in all trucks, trains, ships the world over to conserve the fuel. But then why only 25 % gain when today's hybrids can give 50 %.
Well according to them the codeveloped system will be more sophisticated than those currently on the market because it will use smaller motors and provide better fuel economy and towing capability at highway speeds but time will tell and who knows what Toyota & Honda may offer by then.
Comments
kirstie_h
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kirstie_h
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Kirstie, that sounds like it was "on topic" to me........?????????
The future of hybrids will be much more performance oriented than they have been so far. Hybrid SUV's with sports-car like performance is what most people really want. It is only economic hardship and human misery (by degrees) that prevents people having their desire fulfilled.
There will always be early innovators which will about , at least temporarily, anything new. Low emissions, while it attracts a small zealous set, will not be enough to drive hybrid technology to the masses.
When you have something new, there is always fear, fear of change. The current fear is the unknown life-span of the traction batteries. A second fear that some have is will they truly hold their MSRP value and high resale they currently demand. There are two factors: (1) Limited supply commands high price and (2) new technology could completely obsolete the current IMA and HSD technology.
To move forward with any product, Hybrids and others, there has to be a large degree of openmindedness. People are in a learning stage and will have a lot of different views and opinions. Major car manufacturer's are beginning to realize that hybrids might be the big future seller and they are beginning to offer products with the word hybrid in their name. However, saying hybrid right now is like saying "diet" or "low fat", it doesn't have any real meaning.
However, it looks like gas prices will continue to remain at current levels or increase. Increase might be slowed or continue to rise dramatically as we have seen in the past year.
Becuase of this people are looking for higher mileage cars. Sunk cost, length of ownership and fear of unknown gas prices to to make one more closeminded. Let's take them one at a time:
Sunk cost : Even though most Hybrids currently cost about $3,000 more than equivalent non-hybrid cars, this seems to be only a minor factor in people's decision to purchase.
Length of Ownership: Even though a typical owner only keeps a car 3-5 years and the payout on the additional hybrid cost is around 7+ years. consumers say I will keep this car longer. Yeah right!
fear of unknown gas prices: This is probably the biggest factor. Gas price in the US could easily got to $3.00 per gallon short term. Even if it doesn't the price of oil has dropped in the last couple of weeks, but gas prices have not ratchetted down. If you look out for even just 5 years with a moderate increase of 15% per year you find some alarming trends:
2004 (base) = $2.00 per gallon
2009 = $4.00
I definitely think gas price will drive hybrid technology development and the current technology and battery density technology will improve dramatically. This will probably obsolete today's technology in the 3-5 year time frame ,will before it pays out.
This was meant to be an opinion editorial of my own and was meant to be on topic and to not personally attack anyone. If this message offends anyone, I apologize in advance.
YMMV,
MidCow
2004 (base) = $2.00 per gallon
2009 = $4.00
You mean you find some alarming projected trends, not to be confused with actual trends. There's a rough table here showing historical national averages, adjusted for inflation, and for those of you who love charts (don't lie - some of you do!), here's one with more recent and more frequently graphed data. Prices have been all over the place, so if one can make a mathematical projection, it's certainly beyond my skills.
So the fear may yet be real or perceived. Question: If gas prices suddenly plummeted, do you think we'd see a corresponding drop in sales of hybrids, or in interest in hybrids? I tend to think that the other reasons for purchasing hybrids might keep demand high. What do you think?
kirstie_h
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As you can see from the reference article prices are all over the place, because there are too many factors and inflation adjusting is just one.
Linear trending is just that a linear trend and does not follow real life at all!
Look at your most recent example from after Gulf war to what is shown, then extrapolate that to the current price of around $2.07 per gallon. Draw a straight line with what is shown and you very easily get to over $3.00 in the next several years. and beyond that additional increase to $3-4.00 in five years is certainly within the realm of possbility.
Only my opinion , but I see a siginificant increase in the price of gas in the next decade in the U.S.A. You may disagee, but as with the rules of Edmunds townhall, disagree respectfully with my content and opinion and not with me.
Again this is only my opinion and may not reflect what actaully takes place in the future and may not agree with your opinion.
YMMV,
MidCow
However, my other question stands - if gas prices were to unexpectedly plummet, do you think we'd see a major drop-off in the demand for hybrids?
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However, If gas prices remain where they are for at least 6 months, until more people beyond "INNOVATORS", begin acquiring hybrids , then I believe hybrids will stay. Hover, there will probably be a much more technologically advanced hybrid introduced in the next 3-5 years. Remember, this is still a developing science. The IMA is good for highway mileage. The HSD is good for suburban mileage, but suffers on the highway. Maybe their is a new form that combines the best of both!
Marketing Model:
Innovators: First 5%-10% that adopt the product
Early adopters: Next 10-15%
Early Majority: Next 30%
Late Majority: Next 30%
Laggards: Last 20%
Right now the transition is from innovators to early adopters. If the Hybrid gets to the late early adopter stage or the early majority stage, before and if a gas plummet price should occur, then there will be very little impact on hybrid sales.
One other item that can significantly impact hybrids are diesel engines. When low sulphur becomes available/ required in U.S.A. high mpg diesels ( non-hybrid and hybrid) will certainly reduce the demand for the current gasoline-electric hybrids.
One can home that more and more hybrids come to market. Price will come down to a more reasonable economically dictated level.
YMMV,
MidCow
I don't think you would see much difference. The reason being is none of the manufacturers are making an effort to build more than the current demand. 20k cars in a model year is nothing to GM, Ford, Honda or Toyota. Toyota says they will build more next year. The truth is they do not intend to even get started on additional manufacturing facilities until the middle of 2005. A lot could happen between now and then. If the situation in Iraq is stable the price of oil will go back to under $30 per barrel and we will be looking at gas for less than I was paying in High School (1960). The same cannot be said for the price of automobiles. Maybe people will become more environmentally conscious and keep their vehicles for 15 years. That would go a long way to cutting back on pollution. The tiny bit less pollution that the hybrids are contributing is far outweighed by dumping vehicles after 3-5 years of use.
"Toyota Camry hybrid to run on US roads"
Had that been announced before, or was it just speculation up to now?
I don't know about smaller towns, but you can almost always find a new HCH for sale in Phoenix.
And Voltsvagen has how many TDI cars available? Three?
So there are options for high mileage cars, and they can be had now. More are coming. The choices will be there sooner rather than too much later.
And Voltsvagen has how many TDI cars available? Three?
That is Arizona. In CA the hybrids are all that we have. As far as the HCH it has a waiting list in San Diego dealerships just like the Prius. With the dealer I talked to adding $1000 to MSRP for the HCH. That is the deposit to get on the wait list. I can buy a Ford F250 diesel but not a VW TDI or a Mercedes E320 CDI. That is how screwed up CARB is.
IMA on highway is not as good as HSD. A clear example is HCH vs. Prius highway mpg.
"The HSD is good for suburban mileage, but suffers on the highway."
Why do you think highway is lower than suburban?
"Right now the transition is from innovators to early adopters."
Right now, Prius is selling at a faster rate than Mazda RX-8 (rotary engine). What does that tell you?
Dennis
I don't think the RX8 is a failure because of the rotary engine. The rotary is a very smooth high performance engine. The problem is that Mazda put it in an absolutely butt ugly sports car. I would say that Prius is getting close to market saturation. It is getting easier to find them without any wait. It is a niche car and will never reach the sales status of the Camry or Accord. Mainly because Toyota and Honda are in business for one reason to make money. The Prius will never be a big money maker.
as far as looks to most but it invaribly gets rave reviews for performance and handling and high marks for keeping the costs down. 2nd The Prius is getting easier to buy in many places still at LIST price while U.S. cars dealers are scampering to sell their surplus of cars with all kinds of gimicks (rebates-0% interests- etc.). 3rd Honda & Toyota may be in business to make money but they also put out a quality product that they are quite proud of (case in point PRIUS). Finally,you said "the Prius will never be a big money maker"...Anyone who says that is not aware of all the tremendous praise and awards directed towards the PRIUS and satisfied owners.
Culliganman (still happy saving $$)
You are right that the Prius has gotten Praise, awards and customers are very satisfied. That has nothing to do with making a profit on a car. There is no way that the Prius is generating the same revenue for Toyota that the Camry does. If it was they would have jumped up and produced as many as they could sell. They are dragging their feet and if you cannot see that your not looking at the facts.
So tell me, what YOU think makes for a profit making car? I'm curious.
Culliganman (Hybrid lovebug)
They have NOT upped production. They said they plan to up production in 2005. They only reallocated sales of the Prius from Japan to the USA. I believe they are losing money on the Prius otherwise why the sudden loss after so many years of excessive profits? Batteries and electric motors are very expensive.....
Toyota Motor Corp., the world's most profitable car maker, posted a surprise drop in quarterly profits Monday despite robust overseas sales growth as a strong yen and rising materials costs took their toll.
http://money.cnn.com/2004/11/01/news/international/toyota.reut/
That is not true. The Toyota Camry 4 cylinder has the same SULEVII rating as the Prius. Several other vehicles carry the same 10 rating. It is slightly better than the Camry on greenhouse gas and not as good as a few other vehicles. It is good but it still pollutes.
Culliganman(GO-B-4)
http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/all_rank_05.xls
this page explains the EPA ratings for green cars:
http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/about.htm
That is a good question. I don't believe I have ever owned or ridden in anything I considered "Great". I like my 1999 Suburban for some things. Mileage not being one of them. I like our 1990 Lexus LS400. It still gets 19/27 mpg and is nearly as clean burning as the new Lexus LS430. What I need is a good small PU that gets 45-50 mpg. I know they are available in most of the world except the good ol' USA. I drove a Prius and thought it was cool. I liked the silence. I don't think I would ever buy one as it does not fit much of my needs in a vehicle. I make lots little short trips under 3 miles to the Home depot and store. Most of the time the Suburban is overkill so I take our old 1990 Mazda 626. To buy a new vehicle that would not enhance the vehicles we now have would be a gigantic waste of money. I'm real skeptical of your great strides in the automotive industry. I just don't see it. I had an old 1951 Studebaker V8 that got 22 mpg all the time. When the average smaller sedan only gets 26 combined 53 years later where's the progress. I do think the Insight is an ideal commuter car for all the yoyo's driving single to work 20 miles every day. If, Lord forbid, I was ever in that position I would strongly look at the Honda Insight.
2) I have to think gasoline prices are going to increase dramatically here in the U.S. over the next year or so - in the past, oil prices would increase slightly, and you'd see an increase at the pumps. Oil prices have almost doubled recently, yet the price at the pump is fairly stable (the price actually dropped 4-5 cents here this week). So, for the sake of argument, let's say gas it $3 per gallon next summer (which isn't far-fetched, when prices are close to $7 per gallon in Europe). If your an automobile manufacturer wanting to take advantage of this situation, would it be quicker/easier/cheaper to A) design a new hybrid vehicle from scratch, or
I have asked that same question several times. I get vague excuses, no solid reasons. It was a great little car. Of course the Civic is about twice as big now. Not sure why. I am not sure your fears of $3 gas are well founded. Europeans have been gouged by their respective governments for a long time. They pay the same for oil as we do. It is the taxes that kick it up to $5 plus per gallon. If the Iraq mess gets stable oil will go back to $30 a barrel and our prices will stay under $2 per gallon for the next several years.
I am curious what kind of hybrid scheme will come out next. Just waiting to be convinced it is really practical.
Not paying attention. :-)
Going back to 1988, I recall CRX HF but not Civic HF. A 1850 lb. two-seater designed for fuel economy better deliver that. Over a decade later, the 62 HP 1.5-liter I-4 designed for fuel economy has been replaced by 86 HP 1.3-liter I-4 designed for the same. Things have not been stagnant in the area of improving fuel economy and emissions.
But, demand for improved safety, comfort and features hasn’t been either! Civic LX could do away with just about everything as an optional feature including air conditioning and cassette player. Today, people expect AC and CD player to be standard! Stuff adds to the weight, as does safety.
Back then, Civic LX weighed in at 2140 lb (features, especially AC will add substantial weight) and today, the more comfortable Civic LX loads up at 2500 lb. The power output has grown from 92 HP in 1988 to 115 HP in 2001+ version. Fuel economy hasn’t changed much (33/37 mpg to 32/38 mpg). This is with third redesign since 1988.
If you really want to compare Civic from that era to technology available now, wait for Jazz/Fit. And I will wait to see what Jazz Hybrid could do!
Secondly, I did an Excel analysis , comparing a Chevy Impala ($20,000 @ 23 MPG avg.) vs. a Civic Hybrid ($20,000 @ 47 MPG avg.) vs. a Prius ($20,000 @ 55 MPG avg.); looking purely at things from an economic standpoint (not factoring in the environmental/social benefits of hybrid technology).
At $2 per gallon, the cost-per-mile comparison (including the price of the car; based on driving 100,000 miles) looks like this:
Impala - 29 cents per mile
Civic Hybrid - 24 cents per mile
Prius - 24 cents per mile
So in this case, if I buy an Impala vs. a hybrid, it will cost me 5 cents more per mile, or $5,000 over the course of 100,000 miles. However, the Impala is a larger car than either hybrid; I could buy a cheaper non-hybrid that would be comparable in size, cost less, and probably get better mileage than the Impala, which would in turn negate the advantage of the hybrid's higher cost (I used the Impala for comparison because that's what I drive). Granted, there's a tax break for buying a hybrid; but there's also the future expense of replacing batteries in a hybrid at some point - so I figure those two cancel each other out.
Now, if gas jumps to $3 per gallon, the figures look like this:
Impala - 33 cents per mile
Civic Hybrid - 26 cents per mile
Prius - 25 cents per mile
Thus it will cost me 7-8 cents per mile more to drive the Impala, or $7,-8,000 over 100,000 miles. Even if I buy a cheaper/smaller vehicle at this point, I'd save some money buying a hybrid, so there might be some economic advantage to buying one.
Basically as I see it, buying a hybrid today over a comparably sized (but cheaper) vehicle only makes economic sense as a hedge against higher gas prices - If gas prices stay the same, the premium you pay for the hybrid will likely never be recouped. If the price of the technology comes down, or the price of fuel goes up, then hybrids make economic sense.
The other thing you begin to realize when you look at the numbers is how the benefit of improved mileage decreases after a certain level. For instance, the cost-per-mile average for the Civic Hybrid (@ 47 MPG) and the Prius (@ 55 MPG) don't really deviate at the 100,000 mark until the price of gas hits $3.00 per gallon; at which point the Prius is one penny cheaper per mile. If gas got to be $6 per gallon, the Prius would only save two cents per mile over the Civic (but 15 cents-per-mile over the Impala!!). Other than bragging rights for advertising purposes, the advantage of a 50 MPG car over a 40 MPG car are really minimal (at least for the foreseeable future, assuming gasoline doesn't hit double-digits per gallon).
That's why I think you'll see more efforts at using hybrid technology in trucks, SUVs, and vans - bumping a heavy vehicle from 12 MPG to 15 is a big deal - even though it's "only" 3 MPG, that's a 20% improvement. Efforts on this end of the spectrum will do more for the environment than will pushing for improved mileage on small cars on the upper end of the range.
One correction the Honda Civic CRX HF in 1988 was a 1.5l 4 cylinder that was rated by the EPA at 50/56 mpg for a combined 52 mpg. I don't know the difference in weight. I can tell you one thing the CRX I borrowed from a friend back then ran like a scalded ape and handled great. Nothing Honda has with just ICE is close today....
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bestworst.shtml
http://www.rediff.com/money/2004/nov/01merc.htm
All trims of CRX had 1.5-liter engine with different outputs. HF was the lightest (1833 lb) and least powerful trim with just 62 HP. Obviously focus was entirely on fuel economy. The more mainstream offering of CRX had 92 HP (like Civic LX sedan) and was rated at 34/39 mpg. CRX Si had 105 HP with a fuel economy rating of 29/36 mpg.
Now, you made an interesting comment: “Nothing Honda has with just ICE is close today....”
Well, true in North America, but could you guess why? But, it would be worthwhile to note that Honda now offers 117 HP Civic HX coupe that is rated 36/44 mpg, better than all but the CRX HF.
As far as the HF is concerned, Honda didn’t offer the 62 HP engine in Japanese market so I couldn’t get details to compare to Honda Fit. The most fuel economical CRX in Japanese market (in 1988) was powered by an 82 HP 1.3-liter engine. In Japanese (10.15) mode, the vehicle was rated at 20 km/liter.
Today, Honda offers a much more practical 2200 lb. 5-door hatchback with two engines in Honda Fit:
1.3/I-4 i-DSI delivering 86 HP / 23 km/liter
1.5/I-4 VTEC delivering 110 HP / 20 km/liter
So, Honda HAS something in place, just not offered in North American market at the moment. But that may not be true forever with the rumors of Fit/Jazz launch.
That being said, the fuel efficient 1.3/I-4 used in Fit/Jazz is the main power plant that motivates Civic Hybrid. Coincidentally, without IMA, HCH would have similar weight to power ratio as CRX HF.
The fuel economy and performance potential of Jazz/Fit could make for a nice recipe for a low cost hybrid that is mainstream and practical to boot!
However, these little hatchbacks didn’t last forever. I suspect they weren’t selling enough of these, and had a reason to take them off the market. Civic HX coupe eventually took over.
The purpose of the battery is to give the tiny 60 hp car better performance... i.e. to decrease 0-60 acceleration from ~15 to just ~10 seconds.
As for being "too complicated" the Honda Hybrids are not. They are exactly the same as any other car, but they added an Electric Motor between the engine & the transmission. It doesn't get any more simplistic than that.
Culliganman (memories of old)
Thanks!
AMC:
>>>> All Makes Combined
>>>> A Major Cost
>>>> A Mutated Car
>>>> A Morons Car
>>>> Another Major Catastrophe
>>>>
>>>> AUDI:
>>>> Another Ugly Deutsche Invention
>>>> Always Undermining Deutsche Intelligence
>>>> Automobile Unsafe Designs, Inc.
>>>>
>>>> BMW:
>>>> Big Money Works
>>>> Brutal Money Waster
>>>> Break My Window
>>>> Break My Windshield
>>>> Babbling Mechanical Wench
>>>> Beastly Monstrous Wonder
>>>> Beautiful Masterpieces on Wheels
>>>> Beautiful Mechanical Wonder
>>>> Barely Moving Wreck
>>>> Big Money Waste
>>>> Big Money. Why?
>>>> Big Money Works
>>>> Born Moderately Wealthy
>>>> Breaks Most Wrenches
>>>> Bring More Wrenches
>>>> Brings Me Women
>>>> Brings More Women
>>>> Broken Money Waster
>>>> Broke My Wallet
>>>> Broken Monstrous Wonder
>>>> Bumbling Mechanical Wretch
>>>> Blasphemous Motorized Wreck
>>>>
>>>> CHEVROLET:
>>>> Can Hear Every Valve Rap On Long Extended Trips
>>>> Cheap, Hardly Efficient, Virtually Runs On Luck Every Time
>>>> Cracked Heads, Every Valve Rattles, Oil Leaks Every Time
>>>> Constantly Having Every Vehicle Recalled Over Lousy Engineering Techniques
>>>>
>>>> DODGE:
>>>> Drips Oil & Drops Grease Everywhere
>>>> Damn Old Dirty Gas Eater
>>>> Dead Old Dog Going East
>>>> Dead On Day Guarantee Expires
>>>> Dead On Delivery, Go Easy
>>>> Dead On Delivery, Guarantee Expired
>>>> Dead Or Dying Garbage Emitter
>>>> Dear Old Dads Garage Experiment
>>>> Daily Overhauls Do Get Expensive
>>>>
>>>> EDSEL:
>>>> Every Day Something Else Leaks
>>>>
>>>> FORD:
>>>> Fix Or Repair Daily
>>>> Found On Road Dead
>>>> First On Race Day
>>>> First On Recall Day
>>>> Fabricated Of Refried Dung
>>>> Fails On Rainy Days
>>>> Fantastically Orgasmic Realistic Dream
>>>> Fatally Obese Redneck Driver
>>>> Fault Of R&D
>>>> Finally Obsolete Racing Device
>>>> Fireball On Rear Denting
>>>> First On Road to Dump
>>>> First On Rust and Deterioration
>>>> Fix Or Recycle Dilemma
>>>> Flipping Over Results in Death
>>>> Flipped Over Roadside Disaster
>>>> Follow Our Rusty Dogsled
>>>> Foot On Road Decelerates
>>>> Forced On Reluctant Drivers
>>>> Formed Of Rejected DNA
>>>> Forwarded Once; Return Denied
>>>> Forward Only; Reverse Defective
>>>> Forlorn, Old, Ratridden Dustbin
>>>> Fork Over Repair Dough
>>>> Fouled Out Re-done Dodge
>>>> Frequent Overhaul, Rapid Deterioration
>>>> Free Or Reduced Drastically
>>>> Frequent Opinion: Really Disappointed
>>>> Fumes and Odors Readily Detectable
>>>> Funny Old Rattling Dump
>>>> (backwards) Driver Returns On Foot
>>>>
>>>> GEO:
>>>> Good Engineering Overlooked
>>>>
>>>> GM:
>>>> General Maintenance
>>>> Great Mistake
>>>> Garbage Motors
>>>> Generally Miserable
>>>> Grossly Misconceived
>>>> Gluteus Maximus
>>>>
>>>> GMC:
>>>> Garage Man's Companion
>>>> Gotta Mechanic Coming?
>>>> Generally Mediocre Cars
>>>> Get More Chicks
>>>> Gets Mechanics Crazy
>>>> Gods Mechanical Curse
>>>> Got More Crap
>>>> Great Mountain Climber
>>>> Great Motor Car
>>>>
>>>> GTO:
>>>> Gas, Tires, Oil
>>>>
>>>> HONDA:
>>>> Hang On, Not Done Accelerating
>>>> Hallmark Of Non-Descript Automobiles
>>>> Hallmark Of Non-Destructable Automobiles
>>>>
>>>> JEEP:
>>>> Just Eats Every Part
>>>> Junk Engineering Executed Poorly
>>>>
>>>> MG:
>>>> Money Guzzler
>>>>
>>>> MGB:
>>>> Might Go Backwards
>>>>
>>>> MGF:
>>>> Might Go Forward
>>>>
>>>> MIATA:
>>>> My Intention: Always To Accelerate
>>>>
>>>> MOPAR:
>>>> Many Odd Parts Arranged Randomly
>>>> Miscellaneous Oddball Parts Assembled Ridiculously
>>>> Most Often Passed At Races
>>>> Mostly Old Parts And Rust
>>>> Move Over People Are Racing
>>>> Move Over Plymouth Approaching Rapidly
>>>> My Old Pig Ain't Running
>>>> My Only Problems Are Repairs
>>>>
>>>> MUSTANG:
>>>> Motor Under Strain, Transmission Almost No Good
>>>>
>>>> OLDSMOBILE:
>>>> Overpriced, Leisurely Driven Sedan Made Of Buick's Irregular Leftover
>>>> Equipment
>>>>
>>>> PINTO:
>>>> Put In Nickel To Operate
>>>> Paid Inspector Nicely To Overlook
>>>>
>>>> PLYMOUTH:
>>>> Please Leave Your Money Out Under The Hood
>>>>
>>>> PONTIAC:
>>>> Poor Old Numbskull Thinks Its A Cadillac
>>>>
>>>> PORSCHE:
>>>> Proof Of Rich Spoiled Children Having Everything
>>>>
>>>> SAAB:
>>>> Send Another Automobile Back
>>>> Swedish Automobiles Always Breakdown
>>>> Sad Attempt At Beauty
>>>> Sorry Auto, Always Broken
>>>> Shape Appears [non-permissible content removed]-Backwards
>>>>
>>>> SUBARU: Screwed Up Beyond All Repair Usually
>>>>
>>>> TOYOTA:
>>>> Torturous On Your Old Tired [non-permissible content removed]
>>>> The One You Ought To Avoid
>>>>
>>>> TRIUMPH:
>>>> This Really Is Unreliable Man, Please Help!
>>>> Tried Repairing It Until My Parts Hurt!
http://www.nwanews.com/story_print.php?paper=adg&News=section- - &storyid=100825
http://www.fuelcellsworks.com/Supppage1510.html
Does it mean that the vehicle will use more hp when loaded fully than when empty.
If this is it, then it can be applied in all trucks, trains, ships the world over to conserve the fuel. But then why only 25 % gain when today's hybrids can give 50 %.