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The Future of Hybrid Technology
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How old are those batteries? I am more concerned about age than mileage. I keep my cars a long time 15-20 years and rarely go over 100k miles. I believe age is harder on batteries and electronics than high usage.
Blackshaw, who is chief customer satisfaction officer at Intelliseek.com, spoke to a Honda regional manager about his concerns, and wrote a letter to a Honda vice president on April 15 that was not answered. His story has been echoed dozens of times online by owners of the Honda Civic Hybrid and Toyota Prius.
Drivers rarely see the actual EPA-rated mileage in the real world, according to John DiPietro, road-test editor of automotive website Edmunds.com. DiPietro says most drivers will get between 75 to 87 percent of the rated mileage, with individual variations based on driving habits and traffic route. "If a new car gets less than 75 percent of its EPA rating, then it should be retested."
Data from independent product-testing organization Consumer Reports indicates that hybrid cars get less than 60 percent of EPA estimates while navigating city streets. In Consumer Reports' real-world driving test, the Civic Hybrid averaged 26 mpg in the city, while the Toyota Prius averaged 35 mpg, much less than their respective EPA estimates of 47 and 60 mpg. Hybrid cars performed much closer to EPA estimates in Consumer Reports' highway tests.
http://www.wired.com/news/autotech/0,2554,63413,00.html?tw=wn_sto- ry_related
me: I'd recheck where you get that 1% from. If that were true, then you'd only get a 1% improvement in mpg at the most.
Any other mileage gain would be coming shutting off the engine when stopped, or deactivating cylinders.
I'd then say to hybrid manufacturers to save the expense and weight-penalty of the batteries and motor, and simply shutdown the ICE when not needed.
This is one story of one user who does not know how to drive a hybrid for max mpg.
We already had this discussion last week when we were talking about how "people who make the effort to learn how to drive a hybrid for max mpg" CAN and DO learn how.
That's nothing different than learning anything ELSE new about car technology - to use a FOB, to use the ABS brakes without pumping, etc.
New technology USUALLY requires learning something NEW, does it not?
We determined that users on gh.com were getting 96% of EPA, including the Insight, which exceeds EPA figures.
Here is what I said last week on the issue:
And the average high mileage Hybrids (prius, HCH) DO achieve between 84% and 94% of the EPA, and if you throw in the Insight, it can easily achieve MORE than 100% of the EPA numbers. In fact, the average Insight at gh.com averages 63 MPG, which is 111% of EPA.
You take those three cars, take the gh.com average, and that comes out to 96% of EPA. I think in all cases, that can be considered "close to what was on the sticker."
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True, but at 20 years, are you going to replace the battery in that old antique car?
troy
"YOU: I'd recheck where you get that 1% from. If that were true, then you'd only get a 1% improvement in mpg at the most."
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The mpg doesn't come from the battery. The mpg improvement comes from carrying a tiny ~80 hp engine, instead of a 160 hp engine. Half the size... almost double the mpg.
So where did the 1% come from? Simple math. A hybrid battery is roughly equivalent to 1/10th gallon of gasoline. It carries very little energy.
The gasoline savings come from a tiny engine.
troy
Not sure what you’re trying to compare here. Is it density of energy stored in batteries versus gasoline? Or, how energy stored in battery contributes towards fuel economy improvements.
The engine in Insight is tiny because the car itself is. However, don’t expect an arbitrary non-hybrid Insight to deliver within 1% of the fuel economy (under same circumstances) from hybrid Insight.
But hybrid battery gets charged every time we slow down, whereas gas tank is filled only if you go to gas station. That is where the hybrid battery outshines gas tank.
me: I think you're making it too simple. ;-) Now I'm not positive of how much energy the batteries store, but lets say it is 1/10 of a gal. of gas, and there are 10 gal of fuel on board the Prius.
Now if the Prius used all 10 gal of gas in the time it took the batteries to discharge to the motor, it would be 1%. But 10 gal. of gas is going to last 10-20hr. During that time the batteries would have been recharging and discharging many times.
So energy storage is not the comparision of where a hybrid gets its energy. You need to consider the Energy Flow since the batteries are constantly recharged. How much gas is going into the engine, which is being "recharged" from the tank vs. how much electric is being drawn, which is being recharged by braking and the engine on occassion.
In actuality all energy of the hybrid originates from the gasoline put in it. Except for the initial charge. ALL. It is gasoline energy that gets the hybrid to the top of the hill, increasing the potential energy that can be partially reclaimed in the braking.
I guess the debunker's need to be debunked.
First: The average insight driver is getting 63 mpg. That IS the EPA estimate for the manual transmission Insight. Notice only 4 of the Insights reporting are CVT. Three of those CVTs are getting combined 49 mpg much below EPA estimates.
Second: The Prius average is 87% of EPA & the HCH 95% of EPA. To my way of thinking the 2 original Honda hybrids are very good. Even the Prius is OK, as it is much cleaner than most cars on the road.
Third: A person should not have to be a hypermiler to get close to EPA. It is an AVERAGE estimate of mileage. The average driver should get good mileage with these cars and they are not getting it. That is why so many complaints. Most of the people on Edmund's are car people and try different tricks to get good mileage. The hybrid's image is getting tarnished by AVERAGE people that buy them and get 60-70% of the EPA estimate. Those statistics are from Consumer Reports that many here love to quote when it suits their purpose.
Last: My biggest complaint is the newer hybrids just out and the ones on the horizon. They are not economical and not especially clean burning. They should not be given any special incentives, tax breaks, HOV access or whatever. They are just high tech cars that have attracted a niche market. They have nothing to do with saving fossil fuel or the environment. As long as posters try to make them something they are not I will try to debunk the misconceptions.
Second: Anyone driving a Prius getting 87% of EPA also has no complaint - MANY MANY cars only get 87% of EPA. But we ALREADY KNOW the EPA test is faulty !! It's faulty !! Be happy that you are driving virtually the cleanest car on the planet and getting FAR FAR above 90+% of the drivers on the road.
Third: You do not have to be a "hypermiler" to get close to EPA. Hypermilers by definition are those who achieve "greater than the EPA averages" over the life of their time with the car. Anyone who tries to consistently exceed the EPA figures on ANY CAR is playing the game. If you don't want to play, take your car home. The reports of people getting poor numbers are those who DO NOT play the game, and that's fine - but don't blame the CAR or the TECHNOLOGY because YOU the owner are not willing to play !
Complaining that you are not capable of taking full advantage of the available technology is like going to the shooting range with a nice, expensive shotgun and complaining because the guy next to you has a cheaper gun but he hit more skeets !!!
Last: Hybrid technology is NOT JUST for people who want to get 45+ MPG Gary !!! It's a method of taking an engine and giving it an electric assist to make it more efficient !! That's what it is ! Toyota has an Estima hybrid minivan in Japan that is rated at 44 MPG !!
That's the benefit - lower consumption than comparable "gas only" cars !!
I consider anyone that "Plays the Game" as you put it a hypermiler. They are not the average citizen that drives the average car in an average fashion. I know people that have never checked the pressure in their tires. If a tire goes flat they call AAA. Hypermiler's live in a different world than the average citizen. As some have stated most people have NO idea how many miles to the gallon they get with their vehicles. In fact I agree with Honda that the mileage computer is a two edged sword that cuts both ways. It makes some drivers cognizant of their vehicle mileage. If it doesn't add up to what the window sticker says they are rightly upset. Even with the disclaimers on the EPA mileage it is still advertising the mileage of a given vehicle. People look at that to compare between vehicles. They expect it to be fairly accurate.
You can spin the hybrid wheel any way you like. People are not stupid and will see that there is no way you can justify the extra cost of a hybrid with gas mileage gains. They are high tech toys for those that like to play games. Their future is very fuzzy...
By Matt Nauman Mercury News
There's another reason to buy the Toyota Prius hybrid. Customers are willing to wait months to buy one. Critics tabbed it as a car of the year in 2004. And, today, it'll be named the best value of any car under $23,000 by IntelliChoice, the Campbell company that evaluates the cost of buying or leasing a vehicle.
That means a Prius owner will pay less to own one for five years than any other model of that price.
The full results will be posted on http://www.intellichoice.com today.
"Last year was the the fourth-warmest recorded. Average temperatures taken from land and surfaces of the oceans showed 2004 was 0.86 degrees Fahrenheit (0.48 C) above the average temperature from 1951 to 1980, according to Hansen."
Full story here:
http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&- ;storyID=2005-02-10T152838Z_01_DEN055676_RTRUKOC_0_ENVIRONMENT-WA- RMING-NASA.xml
A lot of what Intellichoice considers depreciation is rebates and discounts that consumers get, which they are not considering.
I don't know where you live, but where I do we burn lots of oil, putting GHG in the air to stay warm, because the Earth is too cold! It seems to me that there are vast expanses of land that are lightly settled such as in Canada and Asia, Greenland, and Alaska as examples, because the cold is hostile to regular human habitation.
The problem with "heating" the earth is that there are some places (the Sahara the Southwest USA) that do not NEED more heat !!
What you might be talking about is just a "shift" of population that would occur if the Earth continues to heat up: people near the Equatorial areas moving North - but to what, if the Ice Caps melt off? You see the problem?
The batteries in hybrids are rarely used. They contribute <1% to moving the car. Over 99% comes from the tank. Today's hybrids are 100% gasoline cars with battery *assist*.
And that goes back to my original point: - If the *heavily-stressed* battery in a pure Rav4 EV can last 120,000 miles - Then the *barely-used* battery in a Hybrid will last indefinitely.
troy
Under AB 71 any gasoline powered vehicle, including hybrid vehicles, do not qualify for the single occupant (HOV) carpool lane access sticker. Because of the fuel they operate on they are not clean enough to receive the carpool lane incentive. Qualifying vehicles must be a 100% electric vehicle (ZEV) or a SULEV or ULEV vehicle that operate on a dedicated alternative fuel only (certified CNG or LPG ILEV). For a complete list of qualifying vehicles or additional information regarding qualifying vehicles please contact the ARB Public Information Office at (800) 242-4450.
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/ccvl/2005sulevpzevlist.htm?PF=Y
KERNICK: I can tell you don't own a hybrid. You clearly don't understand how they work. *I own an insight.* I drive down the highway and don't use the motor at all. It contributes nothing.
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I told you before. The fuel economy doesn't come from the battery. It comes from shrinking the engine from ~160 hp to ~80 hp. I could take my insight, throw out the battery, and still get very very close to my 90 mpg average.
-But it's obvious you've already made up your mind.
-And not listening.
-Instead you'd rather just ignore my point & argue.
So I'm no longer going to waste my hybrid experience on you Kernick. I only share my knowledge with people who listen.
troy
You just can’t go by peak power (or torque values). At 2000 rpm, the 3.0/V6 is probably putting down about 70 HP (at WOT, much less under non-WOT conditions which would be usually the case). The electric motor would be adding 15 HP.
If VCM is activated, and the acceleration starts at 2000 rpm, you’re probably looking at 40 HP ICE assisted by a 15 HP electric motor (at this point, more than 25% of power would be provided by electric motor). As engine speed rises, the power output from electric motor stays the same (15 HP) unless the battery is completely drained out or its reaches its peak power point and/or is cut off. But gasoline motor continues to gain power as is its characteristics until it reaches its peak.
If you apply the same logic to Insight, you would notice that IMA may be contributing with about 40% of the total power at low engine speeds primarily because the gasoline motor itself isn’t too powerful (unlike Accord’s).
Things are not as simple as quoting “1%”.
In Europe, there are tiny-engined gasoline cars that get 50-60 highway, and no battery.
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Hybridization is not for mpg. Hybridization is for adding performance to tiny engines & *brief* bursts of power.
MATH (stop yawning!) ;-)
Amount of time I used the battery driving to work:
<30 seconds
Total time for trip: 4200
<0.7% battery usage contributed to my morning journey
troy
Since you didn't believe the previous link I had, here's the OFFICIAL Honda statement on this link: http://world.honda.com/INSIGHT/technology/t2.html
I'm not trying to argue either, but when the choice is between an official source and something
any person says, I choose the official source (nothing personal - I'd make the same choice with anyone).
Yes, you don’t need hybrid to have VCM. We already see that in Honda Odyssey. BUT, you don’t see another side to it. VCM stays activated in Accord Hybrid under more situations than it does in Odyssey! Why is that? Because during moderate throttle, Odyssey’s active bank of cylinders won’t “cut it”. Without electric assist, it won’t! As a result, VCM is deactivated. But in Accord Hybrid, moderate throttle to accelerate from cruising speed will continue to keep ICE in I-3 mode! This is a classic example of things I mention in the first paragraph above.
Question: Why aren’t those tiny-engined gasoline cars sold in the USA?
Amount of time I used the battery driving to work
Does some of the time is spent at lights? How many times do you accelerate? How much power do you need during the commute?
Toyota is building a plant in San Antonio to more than double the output of its big Tundra pickup.
http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/business/10880347.htm?1c
If as some people here have said the hybrid battery pack will outlast the car, why not put a lifetime warranty on the battery. Or guarantee the replacements will be available and at a guaranteed cost of manufacture ($500?) - no profit to be made on the parts.
I am assuming you were making a joke. I just had the gas gauge sensor replaced in our LS400 Lexus. The dealer wanted $426 for the part. The shop where I got it worked on charged us $245 and I am sure he made something. He told us that Lexus is notorious for raising the prices of parts over MSRP. I know Honda is a rip-off for parts and has been since I owned a 1978 Accord. I can only imagine how bad people will get ripped on hybrid parts with no aftermarket available.
I agree with Kernick if the automakers are REALLY trying to be environmentally conscientious, they would have made the bumper to bumper warranty much longer. The original Prius was 8yrs & 100k miles. I got a feeling they were costing too much to repair and dropped back to 3/36k.
But no it wouldn't kill Honda or Toyota to warranty their battery for life at replacement manufactured cost. The cost of the parts are doubled or tripled by the time they reach the dealer and then the dealer adds profit and you have the "list price". So if the batteries cost $2K, I bet the cost leaving the factory door was about $500.
Does anyone have any reference to a report by Toyota that discusses the supposed "additional pollution" created by manufacturing and then destroying hybrid cars at the end of their useful life?
I think that is being overworked.
The fact is, Honda says the HCH is 90% recycleable. So you expect me to believe that destroying the 10% left over is supposed to be "polluting" in a way that is different (worse) from pollution created by destroying the "greater than 10%" non recyclable parts from a used up non-Hybrid Civic?
If that's what people are saying, let's see some evidence. I contend that much of that talk is conjecture and bullmuck......
http://www.greenhouse.gov.au/transport/publications/pubs/lightveh- icles.pdf
Sure, the Hybrid is "slightly higher" for the manufacturing process, but MUCH LOWER when you get to the lifetime totals.
So I think we can put the "hybrids pollute more because of the manufacturing process" argument to rest as an UNTRUTH.
Although the production of the Prius generates more CO2 released into the atmosphere than a gasoline car, the use of the Prius over a life cycle creates significantly less CO2 emissions. If you drive a Prius for 10 years or for a total of 100,000km, you will decrease CO2 release into the atmosphere by 7.5 tons. To put this into context, the Japanese cedar tree absorbs 14kg of CO2 annually, so you will do the annual workload of 536 trees."
http://jove.eng.yale.edu/twiki/pub/Experimentalproduct/ToyotaPriu- s/HowThePriusIsMade_fullreport.doc
Finally right now the average temperature of the Earth is 57F, I believe - from a NASA report the other day. My feeling is that humans prefer, and plants grow better, in the 65 - 95F range. From that measure, the CO2 level should be increased to make more of the Earth in this range. Environmentally on a geological time-scale we are still recovering from an Ice Age.
What many people who complain about human effects and CO2 emissions fail to comprehend and realize is that the climate has never been steady and constant. It is unnatural. And the Earth and life has survived much more severe and dramatic events than what we humans can do. A supervolcano erupting or a sizeable asteroid hit occur occassionally and would make your concerns of greenhouse gases look silly.
If you want to drive a hybrid to feel good about "doing something", or you want to promote the technology so society has the technology when fuel gets scarce great. But give up this silliness of saving the Earth and such. Any and all fossil fuels we can find will be used by someone in the next few hundred years. There is plenty of demand from 6 billion people all who want more material goods and resource usage.
Shoot, the giant redwoods have naturally occuring fire retardant in it's sap. But the seeds won't germinate with out fire.
Perhaps the manmade greenhouse gasses are affecting us, but I'm sure nature will survive just fine.
Populations and societies around the world are growing and using more energy than ever. China and India's industries are growing and they are no model of energy efficiency or pollution-control. How about the emissions controls on vehicles in Mexico or any other country outside the U.S., Europe, or Japan.
What do you do about the growing population of billions of people such as in Nigeria who'll cut open a gasoline pipeline, haul the fuel and pails, and burn it in their huts? There are billions of people trying to survive - stay warm and cook fuel, who'll have no idea what you're even talking about GHG. And they'll cut down your 536 trees many times over, since many of the countries of this world have an ineffective or corrupt government.
Again if driving a hybrid makes you feel good fine. Bail away!!
Hey, if we all do nothing, are we not worse off in the Big Picture?
Small baby steps......
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Well good. Your honda.com source is good. But I'm standing by my original statement:
If a battery can last 120,000 miles in the extremely-stressed environment of a Pure EV Rav4, then that same battery will last indefinitely in the barely-used environment of a Hybrid. Therefore you will never need to replace the hybrid's battery. Never.
.
"Well you know what would make the difference to me is some kind of statement from these hybrid manufacturers concerning they'll guarantee the longevity of the hybrid systems."
Move to California or one of the 4 New England states, and buy a hybrid there, and it will have a 150,000 mile PZEV warranty.
troy
Austin (Texas) mayor pushes for Plug-in Hybrid vehicles.
-murray
Toyota is already selling the Sienna in Hybrid Form in Japan. No word on when it will be sold elsewhere.
http://www.hybridcars.com/toyota-sienna-minivan-hybrid.html
Can't agree with you about batteries though. I think Lithium-Ion Polymer batteries are already there.
This is what I think we need today:
I've been trying to get someone to take a look at these ideas for some time. In one scale or another everyone of these systems have been proven.
Like to produce a vehicle that can burn rubber on takeoff on all four wheels and get 90+ mpg?
What I would like to see the automakers working on would have:
A turbocharged, two cylinder opposed, 2-cycle, air-cooled diesel directly
driving a generator. (It would not be running most of the time.) A 111 volt Lithium-Ion Polymer battery pack. Nothing but wires going from the
controller to every wheel, except for the necessary additional friction
brakes (of course). An added advantage of this would be the ability to recharge from the electrical grid while at home, saving even more on fuel.
Each wheel, depending on the feedback to the controller from wheel speed sensors would drive with just the right power depending on the accelerator position. You would get recharging from deceleration just as you do in today's hybrids. You would also use this feedback to stop the wheel from skidding.
Each wheel would have a stationary stator and a series of fixed magnets
closely adjacent all around the inside of the wheel. In a sense it would
operate each wheel in a very similar fashion that the mag-lev trains use,
except the motion would be circular, of course. Something very different
about this type of motor is that the stators are fixed to the axles and the
magnets are driven around them. This gives a significant increase in
mechanical advantage. That's like turning an ordinary electric motor inside out.
There would be no need for ordinary electric motor brushes. In fact, many electric motors operating today are brushless.
Such motors already exist in the model airplane field and their efficiently
is amazing - approaching 90%. I've got a couple and doubt that I would ever buy any other type.
It's possible to hang the model on the prop right out in front of you and
accelerate straight up, like a rocket, with this type motor
In the vehicle the motor/generator would not turn on to recharge the
batteries until they needed it. There are already experimental Lithium-Ion
driven cars that can get in excess of 200 miles before they have to be
recharged by plugging them in.
Lithium -Ion battery technology is so new that I doubt that very many
automotive engineers have even heard of them, much less thought to use them in this manner. Their energy density exceeds that of any other form of rechargeable energy storage.
The Lithium Ion battery is the most efficient battery available right now. So is the outer rotor electric motor the most efficient motor.
Build an SUV right and it will weight less and have simpler, easier to repair/replace modules.
Lets see what we can eliminate while improving performance and efficiency.
Transmission - None
Ignition system - None
Liquid cooling - None
Valves and valve train - None
Use bio-oil/fuels for both fuel and lubrication.
Feel free to pass this along to anyone you know in the Transportation business. I suffer from no delusion that any of them have the imagination to be able to see how something like this could jump them ahead of the competition.
I bought a Honda Civic Hybrid last summer. I enjoy it more than any vehicle I've ever owned. I will Never buy another vehicle that isn't a Hybrid and doesn't get at least 50 mpg.
As far as I can tell, Detroit isn't even thinking the same way I and the vast majority of it's potential customers are.
Lucas
I guess you have done a very good research. It should work. The momentum is already building up.
Keep up your good work.
Trying cannot guarantee success. Not trying can guarantee failure.
Populations and societies around the world
What you suggest isn’t a solution to a growing problem. Or is it?