Jetta TDI vs. Civic Hybrid

larsb

Well, diesels have an advantage over Hybrids in "fuel efficiency" for sure, in that more of the fuel is consumed more efficiently. But diesels lose out big time in emissions, even with clean diesel, at least with the best current technology.

And no, Consumer Reports "reliability" ratings are not scientific per se, but they ARE the best we have for reporting problems from "real owners and real cars" on such a largescale basis.

ruking1

"...But diesels lose out big time in emissions, even with clean diesel, at least with the best current technology."...

Gee I wonder how gasoline vehicles would do if we were still running leaded regular? According to the naysayers we should have band gasoline years ago!?

gagrice

And no, Consumer Reports "reliability" ratings are not scientific per se, but they ARE the best we have for reporting problems from "real owners and real cars" on such a largescale basis.

They are a reference even if it is a poor reference. Far from the best we have. I think Edmund's forum is a better place to find out what is wrong with a given model of car. You get people here that tell whether they like a vehicle or not and the actual problems encountered. I take what JD Powers and CR says very lightly in my pursuit of the truth about a given vehicle. They have an agenda and they make too many subjective mistakes to be taken seriously. Insurance Institute is a better reference. There you get the actual ratings on injuries, collision repair etc that tell me more about what is important in a car I buy.

misterme

Honda Hybrid named UK's cleanest car, not Jetta TDI

http://www.greenconsumerguide.com/index.php?news=2324

gagrice

It will be interesting to see if they sell any HCH cars in the UK. I don't think anyone on the board has said the Jetta TDI was cleaner than an HCH, just more practical and better longevity. There are many examples of Jetta TDI cars with over 200k miles and still going strong. I have not read of any HCH that has hit 50k miles yet. So we have no history to go on with the Civic hybrid for long term reliability.

Kirstie_H

I'll be surprised if it's all that popular in the UK. Gas prices are SO high, and diesel prices are much lower. A few extra mpg on a regular gas vehicle isn't going to make up the economic difference gained by driving a diesel.

I imagine it'll only appeal to those whose main interest lies in cleaner emissions.

kirstie_h
Roving Host & Future Vehicles Host

chidoro

They are a reference even if it is a poor reference. Far from the best we have. I think Edmund's forum is a better place to find out what is wrong with a given model of car. You get people here that tell whether they like a vehicle or not and the actual problems encountered. I take what JD Powers and CR says very lightly in my pursuit of the truth about a given vehicle. They have an agenda and they make too many subjective mistakes to be taken seriously.

I won't try to convince you otherwise, but imo, CR is the best reference available. While things to look for in your vehicle is what's beneficial to browsing these forums, they are certainly more prone to subjectivity than a 800,000 person sample size. The actual problems encountered are useful, solely, for that purpose, to read about certain individuals problems.

You could have 1/10th an 800,000 person sample size and come up with at least a 96% confidence interval. 800,000 more than makes up for blips of subjectivity.

gagrice

they are certainly more prone to subjectivity than a 800,000 person sample size.

Where do they get these 800,000 samples? I have bought at least 15 new cars and never been contacted by either JD Powers or Consumer Reports. I know for a fact their testing on some things is horribly flawed. Many of the items they call a best buy turn out to be a best bust. Give me real people with real problems and I will make up my own mind. Here I can ask the person for details of the problems they are having. I prefer realism over surrealism in some vague report.

Kirstie_H

Please visit the News & Views board and ask the host to re-open the JD Powers vs Consumer Reports discussion. We can even add any other ratings system/product you want to discuss, but this topic isn't the place.

kirstie_h
Roving Host & Future Vehicles Host

billmchale

Actually I would argue that an 800,000 sample size in no way eliminates subjectivity. Average Brand Loyalty, Socio-economic background of the average buyer, general initial expectations can all radically impact sample as a whole. In science a well done small double blind study is considered far more accurate than a large well done study where the participants know all the info.

Consumer reports makes things even worse by limiting how much actual data we get; those circles are nice for a quick glance but don't give anything like the whole story.

In my opinion probably the closest standard we have for determining initial quality in a vehicle is 1st and 2nd year warrenty work. Unfortunately I don't think most automakers are willing to release that data.

chidoro

They give data where sufficient numbers are received going 8 years back for models that have existed for 8 years.
Again, 800,000 is so far above and beyond confidence interval requirements to make a reasonable judgement, it's not even funny.

Kirstie_H

Any further posts on this subject will be deleted without notice.

kirstie_h
Roving Host & Future Vehicles Host

ruking1

Actually this is an interesting thing about the TDI, that I find almost comforting despite the bru ha ha about VW's reliability record/s' in general. Another criticism about VW is they tend to let their models get "long in the tooth." So the upshot is their models have actually been around LONG enough to gather significant longitudinal data, over time as in 3/4/5/6 etc years. When things have gone bad, they (however slowly or quickly) took corrective action.

Conversely, how much "significant" data can you draw on with the 2004 Toyota Prius (hybrid)? This was totally redesigned for that model year. Would you say that TOTAL REDESIGN was the "CORRECTIVE ACTION!!!!??? Why? The 2003 Toyota Prius was almost totally off the mark!! Can/would you use its dismal record in buying the 2004? Yet the 2004 is an absolute hit!?

The same might almost be said for our nexus, the 2003 Honda Civic hybrid, since 2003 was the intro model year. Real hard to say I have been running 150,000 miles and probably: i.e.,won't change the batteries for another 7 years.?

So not only are these two makes and models relatively new to the market, but if you are making a case for significant longitudinal data, one year probably doesn't meet the definition of longitudinal!?

The other salient point is that the concept to market cycle is getting FAR shorter, which from a data collection point of view focuses more on MARKETING(unscientific as far as verification data is concerned) rather than longitudinal data!!

electrictroy

"total redesign" is a stretch. It's still exactly the same setup... Toyota merely adding a stronger electric motor.

.

BTW, the 2002 European Union declared the Lupo 3L TDI the "world's cleanest car". Not surprising. Even though it's a diesel, it gets 90 miles per gallon on the highway. It drinks so little fuel, its emissions are almost nothing.

ruking1

Perhaps I am a tad bit confused then. I have driven the Prius 2003 and 2004. To me it is a bit like saying a 2004/5 VW Beetle is better than the 1970 VW Beetle because they merely added a better motor and drive train!? I have also driven the newer Beetle and put app 250,000 miles on the 1970 VW Bug.

Also like I have said in prior posts, some of the so called math challenged folks who walk around extolling folks to use less fuel really enjoy using MORE fuel that the Lupo TDI that you have cited!

electrictroy

Toyota did exactly the same thing Honda did:
- Move the IMA from the Insight to the Civic. Use a bigger electric motor.
- Likewise Toyota moved the hybrid drive train from the Old Prius to the New Prius. And used a bigger motor.

Same system. Same guts. Different car. It's not a "total redesign". It's just a modification. Like Windows 3.0 vs. Windows 3.1.

.

VW does the same thing with its TDI. Beetle, Jetta, Golf... they're all exactly the same car. Only the top changes.

The Lupo 3L TDI was designed from scratch. It's 100% aluminum. It had a stick shift, but it's computer-controlled. And the engine is a tiny 3-cylinder at only 45 hp (the diesel-equivalent of Insight's engine).

ruking1

Perhaps we just differ on "extent". I hope I got my point across that they HAD to do something to "SEX" it up. I mean really why would you want to spend MILLIONS of dollars making changes you don't have to? Many cars share the same "platform", but I would say the cars and applications are FAR different? Lets move on!?

"The Lupo 3L TDI was designed from scratch. It's 100% aluminum. It had a stick shift, but it's computer-controlled. And the engine is a tiny 3-cylinder at only 45 hp (the diesel-equivalent of Insight's engine)."

This is banned from entering the country. It is just one more glaring example of the bias AGAINST diesels in this country. So it is perfectly fine to exclude a vehicle getting 90 mpg, but just wonderful to sell 25 mpg type vehicles,??? And at the same carp about us using too much fuel!?? Like I said, for some environmentally math challenged folks 25 mpg is better than 90 mpg!?

ruking1

I think also there are more quid pro quo reasons for less fuel mileage cars getting the nod over higher mileage cars.

Who pays more in taxation; dollar wise and per mile driven?: an owner of a car that gets 15-30 mpg?, or an owner of a car that gets 50-90 mpg?

I also like not having to bring the TDI in for the SMOG test @ 40-80 dollars a pop and also at the 10 year mark where you have to bring it to a "test only" station that charges you more for the same service, but is mandated to achieve a higher failure rate!

rfruth

Why bother smoging the TDIs they'd fail anyway I know the the allmighty dollar is king for some but for others its a matter of who and how is the smog going to be paid for ?

gagrice

Who pays more in taxation; dollar wise and per mile driven?: an owner of a car that gets 15-30 mpg?, or an owner of a car that gets 50-90 mpg?

There is a lot to be said for your assertion. Look at CA. They are wanting to charge a penny and a half per mile. Not only that they want a GPS in your car that keeps track of the mileage and adds the tax when you buy gas.

As far as smog checks that is a distinct advantage in owning a diesel car. And according to the State of California diesel emissions are not significant to spend the money for testing.

From CA website
while particulates are visible in diesel exhaust, smog-causing carbon monoxide and hydrocarbon emissions from diesel-fueled vehicles are comparatively low. Testing for NOx (oxides of nitrogen) in diesel emissions is under evaluation. With light-duty diesel vehicles comprising less than one percent of the total number of California registered vehicles, the costs associated with implementing a new regulatory program to include these vehicles are currently prohibitive.

ruking1

Well, given the quote from the CA entity and the undeniable fact that the state's legislature uses a HUGE % of transportation generated income as "petty" billions to spend for "OTHER" than transportation, I am guessing the almighty dollar is as you say "KING" for our CA legislature. To be utterly fair, I don't think the other 49 states are too far behind!!

I certainly have read in the NOOS, that the UN is NOT!! $27 billion and UP??

gagrice

I don't think the other 49 states are too far behind!!

Actually Oregon is ahead of CA in implementing the mileage tax. It just seems like a big boondoggle to me. Much easier to raise the gas tax and get it over with. That is why diesel is so expensive in CA the added tax was put on because big trucks are harder on the highways.

Check this article on the subject

http://www.detnews.com/2004/commuting/0411/30/B06-19188.htm

ruking1

Yes, the proposal is quite literally a tax, on a tax, on a tax, (and probably on a tax(x)).

There is the hidden tax of bringing the product to market (min of 15%) there is the fed tax, interstate commerce tax, road tax on goods, state sales tax, county sales tax, CA state tax, then there are road tolls, bridge tolls, parking fees, tax on repairs.

Interesting article. BTW, Corvettes have the so called "black boxes" they have been used as an instrument in lawsuits! So I dont think the author is talking FEAR it is more like legal precedence.

gagrice

My understanding is that every new GM product has them installed for MY 2005.

ruking1

Well If I have to be in an accident, let it be a 2005 and up GM car at fault, with the driver well insured , and with some nexus to sue GM !

blueiedgod

I think you are referring to the data logging function built in to the OBDII comliant vehicles. Almost all vehicles since 1998 are OBDII compliant. The logging for failure codes has more memory than logging speed, air bag deployment, and other inputs. There have been at least one case that I know of when OBDII data logging was used in court to convict someone on manslaughter charges.

Boys version: "I drive down the street at 25 mph and this car just backs out of the driveway, I slam on my brakes, but too late. The lady driver was hurt, I didn't see no baby in the back seat."

OBD II version: "Last 60 seconds before impact: vehicle speed 125 mph, throttle -- fully open, gear - 5th gear, Air to fuel ratio......."

electrictroy

"LUPO 3L TDI is banned from entering the country."

FALSE. The Lupo is as welcome here as the other 5 TDIs currently in the U.S. (tourareg, passat, jetta, golf, beetle). Volkswagen simply chooses not to bring it here. Nor the Polo.

Troy

ruking1

So what you are implying is I can go to Europe and import one over here to the USA!?

Now THAT is FALSE!!! ?

By the the time the 2005 Lupo TDI gets out of the bureacratic maze, the 2015 models will be for sale!

You really don't have to believe what I say: Just try it!!!

WAY long gone are the days you could do this. In 1974 I had a chance to buy a 356 1964 (turtle back) Porsche (Euro spec) for 1700 dollars.

Through an odd quirk of CA state law, if I had kept it, the 30 year old cars (1994 in this case) exemption from smog certifications has been around for a LONG LONG time!

blueiedgod

Volkswagen is not banned from bringing it here, but VW would have to provide enough cars for NHTSA to crash to determine their safety. Since majority of US population is fascinated with big SUV's I don't think VW sees huge sales numbers that Lupo could generate. This lack of interest in compact hatchbacks deters other manufacturer's from bringing their fuel efficient small cars. I am sure everyone who has been to Europe/Japan has seen how small their cars are compared to ours. Ford Focus is a family car there. When our government taxes vehicles by displacement then we may see highly efficient 3 and 4 cylinder vehicles on the roads here. As of right now, the bigger you go the less tax you pay. Someone who buys a Hummer H1 does not pay sales tax as it is over the 7500 lbs capacity and can be considered commercial vehicle. This is the saddest part of it all.

ruking1

For sure this is understandable, and I am glad you hinted at the fact that it has to also face and meet the "[non-permissible content removed]'s gaze" here. Not that this is good or bad etc. Don't also forget it has to "PASS". To have to produce a significant "redesigned" LUPO would be untenable for a whole host of reasons. One of those might probably being that VW is slated to lose like 1.5 BILLION bucks!?

..."The number of registered vehicles increased from 225.7 million in 2002 to 230.2 million in 2003."...

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/nhtsa/announce/press/pressdisplay.cfm?ye- ar=2004&filename=FFARSrls404.html

If the actual population of (10%) suv's is any indication, the so called "majority interest in suv's" really only converts to a 10% "MINORITY" position.

http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/nrd-30/NCSA/PPT/2003EARelease.pd- f

gagrice

As long as you brought up safety. You may be interested that the VW Jetta is considered by the Insurance companies as a safer car than the Honda Civic. The VW Golf is the safest of all small cars. These are the people that determine your insurance rates. Something to think about when buying a new car.

http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ictl/ictl_4dr.htm

ruking1

Absolutely,since I have the Jetta and the Civic side by side, I can tell you the Jetta costs less in insurance than the Civic.

bpeebles

Agreed!

Many people beleive that automakers can "just start importing em" This is so VERY wrong.

I know a guy that had a "grey market" BMW, It was "grey market" because it was not one of the models that was normally available in the USA.

He said it was missing lots of safety features that we here in the USA take for granted (like steel bars in the doors for side-impacts and a built-in rollbar.)

Bottom line: I suspect that for the LUPO to be made "acceptable" to meet the US safety requirements, it would have to be many 100s of lbs heavier with all of the safety cageing. Not to mention if it is desigend to drop the engine when a front-impact occours. What about crumple-zones? I doubt the existing design has any of these features that are manditory for USA sales.

marcb

Ok... just got a 94 jetta with 245k km for Cdn$ 4k. The chairs and interior are dirty and really stinks, the chairs see-saw, the heated seats don't work, cruise works intermittently, and I had to spend $700 yesterday on exhaust and ball joint to have it safetied and emission tested.

 

At least all other power options works and the engine is pretty strong, but thats more than the $2k I wished to spend, and not even the year I wanted (1992 and earlier).

 

But can't really complain too much for this model year of cars, and I'm hoping (fingers crossed) after I have this fully registered and set up spick 'n span by summer i'll get at least 2 years up, and to infinity and beyond if possible.

 

Sooo!!.... since this stinky thingy (which I've started calling Stinky D) came with only a french manual and I have no idea whatsoever of diesels I'm going to ask some of your advice:

 

This morning, Stinky D wouldn't start.

 

Had it outside overnight at -17 deg C (wife's van gets the nice single garage). Ended up driving the Toy Prius parked next to it which purred in one click with nary a fuss. Just gotta love those hybrids with their huge batteries in winter.

 

What are the prep I should do to get it going in deep winter? -17 deg is just early winter here in Ottawa, we regularly hit low -30's in January and February.

 

Obviously the 1 litre gas on a full tank diesel didn't help very much. Guess I should gun for the proper diesel winter gloop but with such an old thingy I thought I could get away with gas.

 

Maybe a block heater is a must on diesels? Will have to check the battery too. But are there any other diesel specific tricks I should know? Compression check? (glow plugs are all new).

zodiac2004

Obviously the 1 litre gas on a full tank diesel didn't help very much. Guess I should gun for the proper diesel winter gloop but with such an old thingy I thought I could get away with gas.

  



 

You actually put gas in your tank. I am not sure but I think that's very bad. Go over to the tdiclub website and post this there. The guys there will tell you what to do to fix it.

gagrice

You need to have a circulating heater and be running number 1 diesel. I never heard of anyone mixing gas with diesel. That sounds bad to me. We have a fleet of diesels in the Arctic and switch to #1 diesel about October when it gets to 0 degrees F.

Kirstie_H

You might want to check out our Jetta Owners: TDI Models discussion as well.

 

kirstie_h

Roving Host & Future Vehicles Host

z28_sedan

Since the LUPO was mentioned, I thought I'd point out this article in USA Today on it:

 

http://www.usatoday.com/money/consumer/autos/mareview/mauto497.ht- m

 

It sounds like something only the most eco-maniacal (just made that up) would want.

 

I'm all for good gas mileage and I'll be getting a hybrid soon, but you reach the point of diminishing returns past ~50 mpg.

escortowner

Realistically....Big Trucks don't just do more damage to the roads - they do nearly ALL the damage to the roads. At least that's what I learned in my Engineering classes.

 

Think about it this way - if you design something to take 20,000 pounds and you put 1,000 pounds on it - how much damage is it going to do? - not much.

 

so with this in consideration - we are already paying for the damage that the trucks do to the roads. The question is - do we want to pay more for the damage? Although, I don't live in California - but here in Houston, they just waste the money by not having good coordination between projects, and apparently sub-standard quality standards compared to the two other states I have lived in.

xcel

Hi All:

 

___Not to take the TDI vs. HCH to far OT but both Ford and Honda have the real McCoy in terms of real world capable performance, size, and FE in the same package with their own high tech Diesels …

 

http://www.channel4.com/4car/news/news-story.jsp?news_id=11009

 

2005 Ford Focus: Europe

 

The diesel units are latest-generation common-rail units with particulate filters, which will meet Euro IV emissions regulations and therefore avoid the extra three-percent tax penalty levied on diesel cars which don't meet the new regulations. The engines are a 1.6-litre unit with 107bhp and 177lb.ft, and a 2.0-litre unit with 134bhp and a healthy 236lb.ft. The petrol engines and 1.6-litre diesel come with a five-speed manual transmission, that CVT is also available on the 1.6-diesel, while the 2.0-litre diesel has a six-speed manual gearbox.

 

___The 1.6 TDCi although only Prius II fast (0 - 60 in ~ 11.0 seconds) receives ~ 40/50 mpg EPA estimated equivalent City/Hwy.

 

___The 2.0 L w/ a 6-speed manual (0-60 in ~ 9.3 seconds) receives ~ 33/44 mpg EPA estimated equivalent City/Hwy.

 

2004 Accord Saloon: Europe

 

___Enough has been posted on this diesel to fill 10 pages in the Town hall. The 2.2 L iCDTi w/ a 5-speed manual (0-60 in ~ 9.3 seconds) receives ~ 38/46 mpg EPA estimated equivalent City/Hwy.

 

___If any of you missed this one from a while ago, it might be worth the read.

 

First Test: 2002 Ford Focus TDCi

 

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/wagon/112_0208_focus/index.ht- - - ml

 

___38 mpg average with a test car being flogged? Maybe 50 mpg out on the highway w/ < 10 second to 60 performance! The 2005 on up Euro IV spec&#146;ed Ford C-MAX&#146;s have improved upon this TDCi with even greater HP, Torque, quietness, smoothness, and FE since the second article/review linked directly above was written.

 

___What in the world is the US (CARB and/or the EPA) thinking given any of these latest generation Euro TDCi/iCDTi&#146;s when running B20 in the winter and B100 in the summer would decrease CO2 emissions to just 10&#146;s of grams/mile vs. > 80 - 400 + for absolutely everything else including the Insight and Prius II. If the EPA says CO is a pollutant, how can they say CO2 isn&#146;t given both will kill you in the exact same manner in heavy concentrations or simply kill the planet in the case of CO2 as a GHG? The fact that Ford has a very low cost SCR-CAT with Urea injection solution to control NOx and DPF&#146;s already installed on their 1.6 and 2.0 listed above could make these as clean as any ULEV and possibly even SULEV automobile clean depending on what pollutant is being considered.

 

___Sorry to all for running so far off topic

 

___Good Luck

 

___Wayne R. Gerdes

gagrice

I would love to see a cross country trial between the HCH and the Jetta TDI. My money would be on the diesel. Have the drivers share the mileage equally for a fair comparison. Also get their take on the comfort factor. I did not get the impression driving the Civic Hybrid was a pleasure on a long trip.

 

http://popularmechanics.com/automotive/auto_technology/2003/7/hyb- rid_vs_gas/index.phtml

larsb

I'm taking a 2,500 mile trip next week with my Civic Hybrid. I'll let everyone know the comfort level after an 8 or 9 hour drive.

 

There was no indication in the article that the HCH was "less comfortable" than the Civic EX - THEY USE THE SAME SEATS !!!

 

Gary, what exactly would be the competitive points of a TDI vs HCH cross country comparison?

 

Overall MPG?

Seat comfort?

Exhaust Smell?

How easy to find a gas pump? (not all little stations in all little towns have diesel pumps you know - and when they do, what percentage do you think has Low Sulfur?)

 

And is "a cross-country trip" really a VALID comparison of one car versus another? I understand how it was helpful for getting an overall MPG number in the EX versus the HCH.

 

But as far as "over the life of the car" usefullness, I think it would be useful only for a retiree who traverses the country 24x7. Most people seldom if NEVER take a cross country trip, and most of those do not take MULTIPLE cross-country trips.

ruking1

I just recently did a road trip of app 2600-up miles. One long almost non stop leg of the trip (Durango CO, up through Moab Ut. to I 70 S to connect to I 15 S to Las Vegas, NV ) was 606 miles, 7 hours of driving time. refilled at 584 miiles with 12.1 gals. Most of the driving was done at altitude!!!!??? Since I obviously did multiple fill ups,(6-7) the total trip fill up range yield between 44-49 mpg!

 

I don't really know how this works in the real world, but they say that one of every 4 filling stations sells diesel. On cross country trips it is almost an absolute no brainer to find truck stops, major gas company stations, (Philidelphia Phil's filling stations ), corner stores, convenience stores, Indian tribes run stations, that sell diesel. I could refill with diesel on "the Strip" in Las Vegas Nv!!!??? In downtown Durango, in addtion to multiple diesel sources, there was even a corner store that sold biodiesel!!

 

While I probably should not say this, I drove on this trip with aboslutely no concern for fuel mileage. (Except when the low fuel lamp lit and the buzzer sounded but the truth is I could have gone another 100 or so miles.) For an almost 700 mile day range!!

 

So I wish you a safe and wonderful trip! Mine was an absolute blast! I doubt, however you will drive your hybrid unconcerned about mpg. It seems the hybrid drivers see it as "macho/machette gig to get as high a mpg from their machines (bragging rights?) . But indeed, do let us know the details! All the best!

gagrice

Gary, what exactly would be the competitive points of a TDI vs HCH cross country comparison?

 

All very good questions. First the writers of the article indicated the HCH was more of a chore to handle than the EX. They attributed that to the tires. Not sure about the seats I would be curious on a long trip comparison between the Civic and Jetta. My interest being a vehicle to travel around our great country when I do retire. Actually the only car on my list at present is the Passat Wagon TDI. I have also considered a new GMC conversion van for the convenience while traveling. I would then be giving up mileage for convenience. Or I can save a ton of money and just drive my Suburban which is wonderful on long trips. Probably no way I can really justify a new vehicle on mileage alone. Plus the Suburban has a 42 gallon tank that gives me an easy 650-700 mile range. Lets me find the best deal on gas. After all life is always a compromise.

 

Finding diesel is not a problem. Finding LSD or ULSD is a bigger issue. You have other options to run different mixtures of biodiesel in the parts of the country it is available. You can go anyplace a semi truck can go. Which is everywhere. It should be fair as the HCH has just a slightly shorter mileage range. That is only 5 stops for fuel from coast to coast.

 

Test objectives are as follow:

Overall MPG?

Seat comfort?

Handling & performance?

Reliability? (A chance for VW to vindicate itself)

Exhaust Smell? (all recent articles on the newer TDI's say diesel smell is non existent)

larsb

Here is what the article said about "handling" and it was only "high-wind related":

 

"Albuquerque, N.M., is about 275 miles from Amarillo and the grades get longer and the winds get stronger in this part of the desert. Both cars need constant steering correction to keep them straight. But the Hybrid is more unstable in these gale-force gusts."

 

Any light, small car with thin tires is going to be tough to handle in high winds.

 

As far as Volkswagen "vindicating itself" in reliability - that cannot happen for ONE CAR on ONE TRIP. Reliability ratings are gleened from real owners reporting real problems over the life of a car line. Facts are Facts: VW is far less reliable than Honda.

ruking1

For long distance traveling it is hard to beat those Chevy seats! The German VW seats while of good quality or even better quality than Honda or even Chevy are not as comfortable long distance, as either of them.

 

The longest time lately I was in the car (Chevy seats) was 10 hours to drive 963 miles from San Jose, CA to Vancover, BC.

gagrice

Another reality of the Hybrid is that sometimes, just when you need it most, the electric motor's nickel-metal-hydride battery pack runs out of juice and you're left running strictly on internal combustion. The Hybrid relies on deceleration and regenerative braking to recharge the pack. Nine times out of 10, you draw the full assistance of the electric motor by simply flooring the gas pedal. But when the grades are long, without any downhill sections, the battery can't recharge. Passing Peterbilts with 1.3 liters and no electric assist is harrowing. In the same situations, the EX is, comparatively, a Corvette.

larsb

tradeoff of power for high MPG and low fuel bills.

 

I myself have experienced a climbing situation with my IMA battery completely discharged, and it's not pleasant at all using only the gas engine - that little 1.3l is not a strong puller !

 

But the caveat is this: I live in "flat" Phoenix AZ, and the times "I personally" will need to climb enough hills to expire the battery are slim to none. Maybe .0005 percent of my driving might be in cases where I expire the battery climbing.

 

There are MANY MANY HCH owners who live in hilly and mountainous areas who have not had any major issues (i.e. Problems) with the IMA running out and leaving them on gas only. They have learned to deal with it.

 

There is no "perfect car" for every situation imaginable to every driver - but the HCH thus far has been about as close to perfect as I could have hoped for in MY case.

ruking1

If I had more of a urban , San Francisco, Los Angeles, Chicago, Atlanta, Phoenix, Denver, Albuquerque, Houston Boston, Miami, NYC, etc (did not mean to leave out any of you other fine big cities) mix of driving, to me the combo that would work would be a 100-140 hp TDI with 250# ft of torque with the hybrid !!! the iCTDI Honda is reputed to get 46 mpg and who knows what it would be with the hybrid in a big city commute!?

Flogging a 1.3 gasser to within a razors edge of exploding is not my idea of a good time! Nor is reading WAR and PEACE, while I go 45-55 mph up a super long grade.

ruking1

Though I have not taken my Civic on longer trips, a lot of Civics and Accords when I am going on longer road trips in the Jetta, try to "keep up or ahead of it". My sense is both models "out" hp my Jetta. They usually pass me on the long downhill's (where I just coast to get the zero mpg benefit, through the drive by wire set up) and go steady up long grades where normally I pass em and for a good amount of time and sometimes miles.