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Toyota Prius Software Problems

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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    folks that are being stranded in their VWs with auto trannies.

    I read the article and don't recall anyone stranded as in towed back to the dealer. They had a transmission problem and took the car into the dealership for repair. There is a huge difference between that and driving down the highway at 70+ mph and having your Prius Quit. Then getting to the side of the road without getting killed and calling for a tow truck. Sounds like your Brother in law one of the lucky ones that did not have a defective car. Toyota only claims about 30% defective. So that means 70% of the owners have a reliable car. More winners than losers.
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    john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    There were actually only 11 reports. (Some people posted their complaint twice.)

    And many of them were likely caused by not having SSC-40A (Electronic-Control-Unit Reprogramming) and LSC-40E (Engine Compartment Seal) done for their Prius. They are required updates to prevent this type of problem.

    JOHN
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    rpm1rpm1 Member Posts: 3
    John,

    I do not recall receiving any notice about SSC-40A and LSC-40E. Were they TSB's or a part of Safety Recalls?

    By the way, I appreciate your numerous and valuable comments on all things Prius.

    Thanks,
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    falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    The VW trannies will do the same thing the Prius does. Quit on the highway. There have been no deaths or any accidents associated with the required software update for the Prius. You certainly can't say that for the VW problem as they don't even know what's causing it. I guess it's all the parts they are buying from GM!
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    cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    Several remarks responding to my posts are all worthy notes. I am responding just to clarify our decision, not to argue against or convince anyone to change their views.

    Knowing 2 friends who are long time owners of Prius help answered many of our concerns. Finding only 2 incidents of close-call with no official reports of major accidents, injuries or fatalities, we feel the risk acceptable. This will be no different than 2 domestic models that served us well into 210K-mile range after 1 had a dramatic timing belt shredding incident on a freeway and the other had a complete transmission failure on the interstate.

    In the end, it is just personal needs and preferences and decisions. Toyota seems to be acting more publicly now to address the software concerns and we are cautiously optimistic that the latest upgrade fixes the problem. May be they should consider a certain X O/S rather than a certain funny-name O/S that attracts viruses and the blue screen of death ;)

    now that we have beaten this particular topic to death, on with more new problems and bugs if any, hopefully not........
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    cmpcmp Member Posts: 2
    As someone who deals with software as a living, has has fixed bugs that have been in products, I know that it can take a long time to see evidence of a software bug.

    so - my real question is How do I tell if my car needs to have the software upgrade. I'm assuming that like all software, there is a way somehow to know the version level and if I know the version of the software of my car, then I should be able to find out if I'm vunurable to the problem or not.

    Does anyone know the software versions affected and how to know the version installed? I bought my car used, so it is possible the any notification was sent to the prior owner (and subsequently ignored....)

    Thanks
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    carlstraubcarlstraub Member Posts: 50
    Any sell dates, Serial #s, etc that will tell if we have potential problem ? Have an appt next week for "comp oil chg and 1 month check". Actually bouight car mid Mar. Thanx
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    bikbik Member Posts: 5
    Can any one please let me know whether this software bug is there in the 2005 models. I booked my Prius two weeks back and i'll go to pick it up on this friday (may 20th). I'm glad i came to know about the glitch before taking ownership. Now i'll ask the dealership and update the group about the recent releases. In NJ we get the Prius pretty fast :) ...Thanks to the contributors, I'll keep my eyes open.

    Regards,
    Bik
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    blaneblane Member Posts: 2,017
    bik:

    According to this Toyota Special Service Campaign SSC 40A, the concern is only with approximately 3,500 model year 2004 vehicles (owners notified January 31, 2004):

    http://www.vfaq.net/docs/TSBs/SSC-40A-dealer.pdf

    See the second and third items on page 7 of 8 of this EPA site for SSC 40A and SSC 40D for 25,000 model year 2004 vehicles (owners notified May 31, 2004):

    http://www.epa.gov/otaq/cert/recall/420b05001.pdf

    There is also the related LSC 40E that updates an engine compartment rainwater seal for model year 2004 vehicles built before October 2003.
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    falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Thanks so much for posting that information. As you know the press loves to blow things out of proportion. The hybrid envy folks (ya know,. they love the hybrids but can't admit it in public) love to pick up on anything contrary to glowing for the hybrids. I suppose people that have the early models have not updated their software. I imagine also that the software is quite similar in the RH as well. Haven't heard of any problems so far but it's still early in their release. Go hybrid!!!
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    molokaimolokai Member Posts: 313
    I normally don't post good news, but I'd like to chime in. I have had all the service campaigns performed on my vehicle. I have over 33k miles and have not had any service related issues. I have the oil changed at 5,000 mile intervals. This has been my first Toyota and I am extremely pleased with the service so far. My previous car which I loved was a 2001 Passat, but I was on a first name basis with the techs!
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    sinepmansinepman Member Posts: 137
    Glad you're happy. I've been considering the 2007 GS hybrid when it comes out. I am a strong proponent of the technology. Sorry to hear that you had troubles with your VW. I used to own an Audi and as much as I enjoyed the car, there were way too many electrical problems. It never stranded me, but I too knew my SA on a first name basis too! Good luck with your Prius!
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    toycashtoycash Member Posts: 139
    The service campaigns mentioned only apply to 2004's. There is only one complaint on this subject involving a 2005 on the NHTSA website and if you read it, it is a little confusing.

    There are some service bulletins that apply to 2005's, but none that would apply to a complete shutdown.
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    falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    I thought you'd all be interested in reading this article.

    http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0505/18/0auto-185628.htm
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    blaneblane Member Posts: 2,017
    It sure has gotten quiet on this forum, since people learned the REAL FACTS.
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think it is more of a case that Toyota now accepts they do have a problem with the Prius programming and will hopefully get it resolved. Just because other cars have problems does not relieve Toyota of theirs. We depend so much on computers to do all these little tasks that in the past were not even thought of. Like regulating the flow of fuel to each cylinder. The more complexity the more things to go wrong. I wonder how many sensors are in the average car today. It may not be feasible to keep a car past warranty in the future. That is not good for our environment either.
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    falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Toyota knew they have a problem over a year ago which is why they issue the TSBs. Unfortunately not many owners thought it was important to bring their cars in for updates. Over time, the bugs revealed themselves and a VERY small amount of owners had problems. All cars today are very complex. Just imagine when my friend's new M35x Infiniti needs servicing after the warranty expires. Talk about complex!!! Read up on what this car has, then you'll see what I mean.
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    falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Absolutely..... it's old news.
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    blaneblane Member Posts: 2,017
    Gary,

    "Toyota... accept(ed) they do ha(d) a problem with the Prius programming" back in January and May of 2004. See my post #126 above. This is nothing new, as they resolved the issue with all vehicles that were brought back to dealers for the TSBs over a year ago.
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    falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    A few posters on the Prius boards got their mailings and had the TSB done and their cars run fine. My brother-in-law never got the notice but after I mentioned it to him he is going to have it done. He has nearly 30k miles on his early 2004 with no problems. He loves the car!
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    If that is true then why are there problems in the 2005 Prius and customers that have had their Prius in for service still being stranded? There are people that have bought new Prius since 5/31/2004 that have had this problem. So until they come up with a TSB/recall for the newer cases the story is still unfolding.

    kippy2, "Toyota Prius Software Problems" #105, 16 May 2005 2:29 pm
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    falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Early 2005 models are also effected. Not sure when the cutoff date for the new software was. As usual the press loves to blow stuff out of proportion. As you don't believe CR, I always doubt the press. Way too many inaccuracies. I obtain my news from alternative sources that are much more reliable. The Prius still enjoys one of the highest satisfaction rates among numerous studies. Can't say that about ANY of the german cars these days. Last in reliability lately. Too many electronic gremlins lurking.
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    railroadjamesrailroadjames Member Posts: 560
    A touch of panic and extremism that just doesn't fly. Gary, you seem to revel in the slightest negative info when it comes to the Prius. I'm not sure if you are anti- Prius or just anti-hybrid or maybe both. Could be "Prius Envy"! So far all I've heard is a handful of cars with a computer malfunction (13 or so) that have been the butt of news blow-up. Chrysler, Ford, and G.M. would drool with envy at those numbers reflecting a pretty high level of quality standards.
    I've yet to have a single problem with my '04 Prius and am confident that this car is on the right track.
    Railroadjames(free-us Prius)
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    So far all I've heard is a handful of cars with a computer malfunction

    I imagine only a very small percentage of Prius owners frequent Edmund's. According to Toyota there were 23,900 Prius II's affected by the software glitch. I don't consider that a small percentage. My point was not to continue the story once Toyota acknowledged there IS a problem. Some here wanted us to believe it is all fixed. If so why are people still having problems? One poster, less than a week ago with a 9 month old Prius that has been into the dealership 5 times with the same issue. Do you think the dealership was not notified of the TSB's or are there still problems? If the complex hybrid technologies are going to become mainstream as you are hoping, they will have to be as reliable as the average car in their price group. If the problems are all related to the recalls made last year by Toyota, then it sounds like a lack of training at the dealerships.
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    falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Definitely a lack of training is the cause at most dealerships, not just Toyota. If you want to compare dealership experience, don't even go there. VW has the WORST dealership network known to man. Someone at work has a VW Toureg that has contacted an attorney to initiate the lemon law because he can't get satisfaction with four separate problems still not resolved. Don't get me started on the tranny problems on the new VWs. Talk about stranding owners, at least in the Prius they can do a reset after parked.
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    blaneblane Member Posts: 2,017
    Gary,

    You have made a MAJOR PRESUMPTION that 2005 Priuses have the software concerns. In your post #138, you linked to kippy2's May 16 post #105 for support of your presumption. As you later acknowledged, kippy2 stated that he has had his vehicle for nine months. That makes his delivery date sometime in August 2004, well before the 2005's were on the road in the US. Since all Priuses are built in Japan and shipped via a long convoluted distribution chain, including a long slow boatride, it is probable that his was manufactured no later than May 2004.

    We can all agree that his dealership should have incorporated the software fixes, but it appears that they may have dropped the ball. Yes, local training is the key.
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    joesyjoesy Member Posts: 2
    i asked him if my new Prius (one month old!) was at risk, and was there a way he could check via my VIN. He said not to trust what I read on the web, and that he had never heard of such a problem. Told me to go to the Toyota site and see if THEY said anything, but the Toyota site seems pretty worthless to me.
    Is there a way to verify via VIN# whether my car needs the software patch?

    thanks!
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    sinepmansinepman Member Posts: 137
    The best thing is to call the Toyota hotline and give them your VIN#. They will be able to tell you if you should bring it in. If you have a late 2005 model, I think you have the latest software updates.
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    sinepmansinepman Member Posts: 137
    Interesting, you always have to read between the lines. Thanks for pointing that out. From what I have been researching, no one with a late 2005 model has experienced any software glitches. I frequent three forums (can't say their names here) that have huge unique Prius owners and none have had problems with recent (within the past 3 mos) 2005 deliveries. This car continues to amaze me. So many people that buy this car love it! I can't wait to get mine!!!!
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    You have made a MAJOR PRESUMPTION that 2005 Priuses have the software concerns.

    I have made no presumptions. The articles that were posted by many major media sources included the 2005 Prius. This excerpt was in many of the publications:

    The complaints include 2004 and some 2005 model year cars. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has received 13 reports of the engine shutdowns and some vehicle-information sites have posted complaints about the problem.

    Some of the malfunctioning Prius cars had to be towed to the shop before they could be restarted. Toyota blames the problem on a software glitch in the sophisticated Prius computer system.
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    molokaimolokai Member Posts: 313
    It says some 2005 models. You sure seem to love the Prius! You seem to spend lots of time in the hybrid forums. If you're planning on buying one I can give you some pointers. I love my Prius.
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    sinepmansinepman Member Posts: 137
    Prius envy can be contagious!! How long have you had your Prius? I see from your posts that you haven't had any problems. What was the last software update you received?
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    gscootergscooter Member Posts: 7
    We are relatively new (And HAPPY) Prius owners and I don't mean to put down anyones real issues or problems with their Prius but... A word of caution to all.

    I say this based on the following recent experiences I've had:

    We just sold a MINI Cooper (2002) that was as trouble free a car as I have ever had. Nonetheless, according to good ol' Consumer Reports and a few other "published" articles, the MINI is supposedly plagued with a lot of quality control and 'reliability' issues. If one believed what CR said you would never even look at the MINI and yet the car has been noted repeatly as one of the most desirable cars on the market by auto enthusiasts and regular new car buyers. Why the disconnect? Because, while there were some people who had problems due to real quality control problems, there was a lot more smoke blown around about issues that were minor or a result of misuse of the car. The MINI begs to be driven like a sports car but it was not built with all of the sports car strengths and attributes. (Engineering mistakes ? No - Cost savings mandates.) In any case while some owners had real problems (Windshield cracks apparently plagued some owners) in other cases the real problems were the owners.

    In this day and age of email and bulletin boards - "Facts" and "Misinformation" alike can be spread quickly and with some very long lasting results.

    By all means complain when you need to but, beware of the fact that very public complaints, can have far reaching results - including an affect on the resale value and in planting the seeds of undue concern in all owners minds - not to mention the press. We all have seen in the past couple of years how the press has failed to do their homework on "newsworthy" stories so beware of what you send/post for public consumption. The press is clearly more often concerned more with increasing the number of readers/listeners than fully checking the accuracy of their stories.

    When you have a problem that won't go away or the dealer can't/won't fix - elevate your case but do so carefully. Don't bring out the 16" battleship guns to deal with a problem about a problem that might be handled by a call to the BBB and discussing your options with them. In this day and age the overescalation of a problem can actually work against you.l Threat of legal action are likely to force a dealer to call in the lawyers and shut down communications way before such things are warranted. Litigation or talk thereof should be your last resort not the second or third course of action.

    We all see the world being changed by the minority groups (Not ethnic here folks) that are most vocal and who drag in a lawyer over the most minor of issues. That sort of act may win that case for them but it also makes things more difficult for the rest of us. Just look at what malpractice insurance rates are doing to health care costs and the availability of good doctors in some areas. The point is choose wisely your battles and the weapons you use to fight those battles. You are not in the fight by yourself others may pay the cost for your mistakes too.

    (By the way - we got rid of our MIN for two reasons - Needed a 4 dr car & with our move to NW Arkansas the nearest MINI dealer became over a 3 hr drive away)

    Now if I can just figure out how to connect my MP3 Player into the Std Prius Radio system with out using an fm Tranmitter...
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    stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "It sure has gotten quiet on this forum, since people learned the REAL FACTS."

    Did you read the WSJ article carefully? Here is what Toyota said:

    "He and another Toyota spokesman said the auto maker isn't sure if the latest problems associated with 2004 Prius models involve buyers who never got the upgrade or if an altogether different glitch is shutting the car down."

    This is the reason we established this forum - to track potential problems. The Prius software is more complex than a normal car. I'm not saying that Toyota hasn't fixed the problems reported so far, but then, Toyota also isn't making that statement either. Considering how complex the software is in such a vehicle, that is a wise move on the part of Toyota...

    If I were in the market for a smaller car, I would seriously consider the Prius, so I do not consider it a likely problem, or a "deal breaker" for me. I would be far more worried about the mechanical complexity (including the batteries) later on, after the extended hybrid warranties run out.

    Plus, here is another fact to consider. How many Prius were produced last year? Just over 25K of them had this software "glitch". If some 2005 models are showing problems, it would mean that the glitch was introduced during the 2004-2005 model year cycle. Unless Toyota only made 25K Prius last year?
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    sinepmansinepman Member Posts: 137
    Maybe there were no changes from MY 2004 to early 2005. I understand that future PRIUS will be built with WIFI to download software updates automatically. Now that will be cool!!!
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Now that will be cool!!!

    Has anyone come out with a software and cable package to do your own analysis on the Prius? Many have bought the package for the VW TDI. Many VW TDI owners are better at finding problems than the dealerships are. It will probably come about after the warranty on the Prius has run out.
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    stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "Maybe there were no changes from MY 2004 to early 2005. I understand that future PRIUS will be built with WIFI to download software updates automatically. Now that will be cool!!!"

    Yes, especially to Virus programmers. Having a car that reprograms via wireless is a stupid security risk...
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    falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    I think there is such a device. Don't all cars have an OBDI socket post 1995 or 1996?
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    stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "I think there is such a device. Don't all cars have an OBDI socket post 1995 or 1996?"

    Is that a wireless port with an antenna? I thought it was a wired socket?
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    On the VW's it is wired with a special plug. The serial cable is a couple hundred bucks I think.
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    joesyjoesy Member Posts: 2
    Went to start it and all the dash lights on the righthand side lit up. The car would only engage neutral or park. The lights never went off.

    Power-cycled it five times, no luck. Same scenario. Called dealer to get towed, while on hold, in severe frustration I slammed the brake pedal into the floorboards and tried again - EUREKA! It started normally.

    Am getting it looked into by the dealer the begining of next week.

    Does anyone else have this "symptom"? It appears my usual pressure on the brake is not always sufficient to allow the car to engage - sometimes it requires brute force.

    thanks,
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    stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    Actually, this sounds more like a simple bad switch on the brake interlock. You cannot put an engine in drive these days (thanks to Audi circa-1986) without putting your foot on the brake.

    Keep us advised - if they update the software, that would be important...
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    bernieinfresnobernieinfresno Member Posts: 2
    I was out of town and a friend saved the CNN article for me since he knew that I had to have the car towed recently (the second time!). Here is my story:

    We purchased a 2004 Prius in Spring, 2004. After a few weeks, the car died and I was told that there had been a recall and the console was changed. The car did very well.....and then about two weeks ago ( year later), while driving, the car died again. I was fortunate to be able to turn to a side street and park. I was not able to turn off the car and it had to be towed.

    The first time I had to rent a car and I then changed dealers.....and with the current dealer (who has given excellent service) there was no rental, tho one day of a rental was covered. This in no way makes up for the three hours of waiting and being unable to keep appointments and then having to pick up the car the next morning. (For the first event, the car was in the shop for a week.)

    Can we be certain that the dealer(s) notify Toyota to correct the problem? Might be a little adjustment and reprogramming to the service department, but they are not behind the wheel when it happens! We have loved this car, but this is both disappointing and dangerous. Thanks.
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    john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    Lack of detail is the problem. What does "car died" actually mean? In other words, what TSBs have you had performed. Not a single owner that had the updates done has reported a problem since.

    We'd like to know what you actually saw for messages on the dashboard and what the dealer reported for error codes.

    It seems to be boiling down to some dealers not telling you some updates are required, since the fix was already available... which is the very reason Toyota chose to rollout the Classic model in very modest quantities. It takes a very long time for the mechanics/managers (as with anyone) to get familiar with the new technology. They don't have answers readily available as with the traditional vehicles. Thankfully, that doesn't apply to all of them. Some are up-to-speed now.

    JOHN
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    molokaimolokai Member Posts: 313
    That seems to be the problem now that the Prius is "mainstream". I happen to follow all the forums and have an early build 2004 model. I had every TSB performed and have nearly 30,000 trouble free miles. If you don't get the updates, you risk having a problem. There have only been a handful of stalls, but the press loves to exaggerate.
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    stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    That none of the affected vehicle were post TSB? How do we know?
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    c2rosac2rosa Member Posts: 76
    Officials eye Toyota Prius stalling

    Regulators plan to conduct investigation over engine stalling.

    http://money.cnn.com/2005/06/01/Autos/toyota_prius/
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    stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    But I just realized I should have reported the following in this forum:

    I just perused the NHTSB complaint database. Here are the numbers as I see them for complaints of the Prius suddenly stopping / stalling.

    Year / Total / Non-duplicates
    2004 / 39 / 24
    2005 / 10 / 5

    Total: / 49 / 29

    So the news reports of 33 are within reason. What I find very troubling is that some owners were told there were two software fixes for the Prius. I had only previously heard of a single fix. And I did not realize that some 2005 model year problems have been reported. Plus, these 2005 Prius problems were reported as late as mid May, 2005, indicating they are not early model 2005's.

    This issue is by far the majority of the problems reported (73 total Prius problems reported).
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    So the news reports of 33 are within reason

    If the car was towed and given the TSB update, then it fails again that is not really a duplicate. That may be why so many reports.
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    larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    "The safety administration said the majority of complaints reported the Prius stalling while moving at between 35 mph and 65 mph. Some drivers reported the vehicle running in electric mode after the gas engine stalled, and at least half said the car wouldn’t restart. No injuries were reported."

    So that tells me that not ALL the people required towing and had a DEAD CAR like some people around here have been guessing..... :D

    http://www.redherring.com/Article.aspx?a=12230&hed=Feds+Look+at+Hybrid+Safety
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