Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

stevenlg

You are, of course, correct to emphasize safety. However, your choice of a Subaru Legacy is not so clear cut. It does not have electronic stability control, an important safety feature. My conclusion is that selecting the best car is a very difficult decision.

kdshapiro

An ESP program is last on the list of safety features I would want in a car. I would never not get a car because it didn't have an ESP. I would pass on a car that didn't have good IIHS ratings and good overall reliability.

While some cars could benefit from an ESP the Legacy (and Forester) do not need them. (Having had two cars with an ESP, I have some basis of comparison) I'm more concerned about being rear-ended or t-boned.

luvmbooty

I would like a sedan with an ESP program but not all are offering them yet. I like the Sonata because all safety features are standard, which is what all sedans should have. Shame on you Toyota and Nissan! :mad:

I read somewhere that Forester's side wall is so strong that the jaws of life can't even cut through them? If you look at it another way that could be bad, though. :surprise:

My concern living in NYC, since it doesn't snow much, is the other drunk moron running the light and hitting me with my kids in the back. A smart man once said "DTA, DON'T TRUST ANYBODY!" :P

goodegg

Although I liked the styling of the Fusion, the interior just seemed lower class than the Accord.

I felt the same way. The Fusion is a nice attempt by Ford, but its tough for any competitor to come close to the aircraft-tight look and feel of Honda interiors.

Plus the Accord comes standard with a sterling reputation earned from millions of gleeful owners. The Fusion has a 'cross your fingers' reputation from a manufacturer with a dubious reputation for quality and reliability.

scape2

"Hummm? Fusion is good, but far from the best interiors. Really doubt is will last as long, and be squeak free over time, as say an Accord."

Why do you say it won't last as long? Why? is this one of those assumptions again?

I never said the Fusions interior was "best". I am implying though the Fusion SEL interior is on par with Camry/Accord. Perception is key here.

Kind of funny how the "big butt look" is ok on your more upscale sedans... :confuse:

ontop

The Fusion has a 'cross your fingers' reputation from a manufacturer with a dubious reputation for quality and reliability.

Agreed! Why take a chance when you don't have to in this class of cars? Ford's version of warm and fuzzy isn't for me.

ontop

I am implying though the Fusion SEL interior is on par with Camry/Accord.

Good joke! Ha ha! I'm done laughing. That was a good one.

maxamillion1

In this class I still find the Accord's interior to be the BEST in class, even over the new Camry, which has a more "daring" interior design, but cheaper materials than the Accord. I think the closest competitor to the Accord in this class interior-wise is the Subaru Legacy and Outback.

However, I don't think the Fusion's interior is any worse than say the Sonata, Altima, Optima or any other car in this class.

I have yet to see the new Altima's interior in person...but it's supposedly on par with the new Accord and Camry...but then again with the last generation we were promised materials on par with VW's and we know that never happened.

kdshapiro

"If you look at it another way that could be bad, though. :surprise"

If you look at it as you're alive and the JOL can't get through, that's good. If you're dead, it doesn't matter how long it takes.

I agree with your comment about being rear-ended. That's why the ability for the occupants of a car to survive a rear-ender is more important than ESP. Would I like both? Sure! But if one has to give ESP. It would never be a deal maker or deal breaker for me. The Legacy and it's AWD, minimize the necessity of an ESP. Although the SPEC B will have one.

bobad

That's why the ability for the occupants of a car to survive a rear-ender is more important than ESP.

Don't underestimate ESC. A recent NHSTA study hails it as a major advance in auto safety. I was surprised that it prevents so many serious and fatal injuries. Even NHSTA was surprised.

/paste NHSTA remarks

- ESC was found to reduce crashes with personal
injuries, especially serious and fatal injuries.

- The effectiveness ranged from at least 13% for
car occupants in all types of crashes with serious or
fatal outcome to a minimum of 35% effectiveness
for single/oncoming/overtaking serious and fatal
crashes on wet or icy road surface.

- Consumers should be recommended to buy cars
with ESC, and automotive industry should only
market cars with ESC as quickly as possible. Such
a policy statement has increased the fitment rate on
new cars in Sweden to almost 70% in less than two
years.

/end paste

kdshapiro

I don't underestimate it. A rear wheel drive car of mine came with DSC. But having said that. It still would not be a deal breaker for me. Everybody has their priorities in a different place.

As far as DSC on an icy road surface, I turn it off. On a snowy road a good AWD can compensate for lack of DSC, especially if the car has some type of TC. A FWD or RWD can benefit much more from DSC. (I don't have to say this is of course in my opinion, having enough experience to form this opionion). YMMV.

ctalk

I agree with you that the Accord still has the best interior. But the Camry's is very nice to, and comes in a close second. I love how the instrument panel lights up in a nice shade of blue at night.

I wonder how the 2008 Accord's interior will look like. I hope they don't follow what they did with the Civic's interior. The Civic's interior is nice, but too daring for me.

and about the Fusion's interior...

Ford did a great job, it's well put together with quality materials. But I still don't feel that it's as good as the Accord or Camry.

scape2

Funny, "low class" seems to me once again its a perception issue, along with a status quo issue. Some have said they don't like the "square" console of the Fusion. Funny how its ok though on the new 07 Camry?? Park an 07 Fusion SEL v6 with leather interior next to a like Camry/Accord. Open your mind, release your mind from all the constant bashing of Ford and GM over the years from the media. Quality fit/finish is right in front of your face.. Once again. I am not saying the Fusion interior is better than Accord or Camry. I am confident it is on par however.
I am also going to throw another great interior in the mix. Take a look at the Impala interior.. nicely done GM.. :surprise:

imidazol97

Do you have the link for the NHSTA's recommendation? I'd like to read the whole statement.

I have real difficulty believing that ESC saves so many accidents and saves lives in "single/oncoming/overtaking serious and fatal crashes on wet or icy surfaces."

kdhspyder

The IIHS had similar statements on it's site as does the EURO/NCAP concerning ESC.
IIHS position

The European statement is even stronger. They recommend that no vehicle should be without it. ( click 'Recommendation' ):
EURO/NCAP position

louiswei

Take a look at the Impala interior.. nicely done GM..

HAHAHAHHAHAHHA....

Okay, at least now I understand why you think Fusion's interior is on par with the Camcords. I guess some of us's standard are higher than the other's.

m1miata

Trade in a Maxima for a Malibu
That's a funny one!
-Loren

m1miata

As a matter of fact they did a pretty good job on the Impala redo. The Fusion is not bad. I noted some parts which looked like, or hard a play to them, which over short time may be something of a squeeker. Don't car for green illumination, but it will do. Both Impala and Fusion are passable as a grade B. Not really world class in anyway, but good enough.

m1miata

Unless driven rather crazy, I would say the intelligent AWD of a Legacy is going to match the safety or best the safety of a drive in all sorts of weather. I bet ya I can roll a car with electronic stability control. I have never had an accident, and have driven a car since the late 60's. I don't have anti-lock brakes or stability control, and all that jazz. Actually the best braking was my Stealth, some years ago, and it was four wheel disc brakes -- very nice, but no anti-lock. Never locked them up, and they had a very nice touch to them.

There is not best car in a sedan, unless we are talking lots of bucks, like a BMW5 may be considered. In cheaper cars, Hyundai has the value plays, as does Dodge in a RWD car in the Charger. Everything in-between is a lot of personal preferences, like handling, seating, comfort, and style. It's all good! Oh yeah, an Altima has good resale.
-Loren

kdshapiro

ESCs do not defy the laws of physics. I'm sure you could roll a car with an ESC by going an insane amount of speed. I do believe it's an added safety feature. I also agree with your statement about the Legacy. A Legacy with AWD is going to best a BMW on slick roads. A Legacy with 4 snows with eat a BMW RWD for lunch with 4 snows.

ABS if you read up on it, actually lengthens stopping distances. The function of ABS is to let the driver remain in control of the vehicle for panic stops, but in doing so, will increase the distance to stop.

In this whole segment, I think the Legacy Spec B is the standout. Powerful engine, ESC, AWD, nice interior, reliability, good IIHS ratings.

imidazol97

Thanks for the links!

I think the ESC's don't repeal the laws of physics. Many hotrodders think ESC will save them from skidding off the road at 65 on that curve marked for 35, will save them from skidding on 3 inches of ice-snow mix at 65 mph on the interstate, etc.

The articles were saying that it will save many drivers form their own errors and overcorrections which often lead to single vehicle accidents. I can see where that would help for those drivers less capable than those of us who are fully able to control our own cars... grin. :P

jaxs1

There are always people against every safety device that comes out.

Seat belts: "I don't like seatbelts, I feel that it's safer to be thrown free of the car in the crash and what if the seat belt jams while the car is on fire or underwater?!!"

Motorcycle helmets: "I can hear better without a helmet and they look dorky when on my Harley."

Air bags: "What if I really want to have my baby in the front seat with me so I can watch the baby more carefully as I drive?"

ABS: "I'd rather not have ABS because I can pump the brakes myself and I can have shorter stopping distances if I lock the brakes on loose snow and gravel than with ABS. What if I'm driving on loose snow and have to make an emergency stop in front of a washed out bridge and the extra feet of braking distance causes my car to go off the edge of a cliff?"

Traction control: "What if I have seconds to get across a slippery train track and the traction control kicks in and stops the wheels from turning causing my family to be hit by an oncoming train?"

ESC: "I'm a great driver, so I will never benefit from ESC, plus I don't want that 'electronic nanny' to stop me from doing high speed drifting skids like in the '2 Fast 2 Furious' movie."

m1miata

Gee, if that is true that we are all going to die without ESC, you should by stock in Hyundai. The only company making inexpensive cars with ESC. They had a little glitch in some, but the recall should take car of that one. A little reprogramming issue.

Or maybe driving lessons would help? Just a thought. I don't own an SUV but I see some pretty crazy moves on the freeway, mixed with the issue of speed, I am amazed some idiots don't crash every day. People seem to think their SUV or truck should handle like a Forumula 1 car.

Anyway, for those buying safety + cost + comfort, must be looking for a Hyundai Sonata. All the safety gismos, and air bags galore! They look decent too. Good HP for the bucks.
-Loren

m1miata

I think I would just feather the brakes, and shoot for threshold braking. Never understood this pumping the brakes.

I owned one car with ABS. The Olds Achieva. Freaky brakes. On stopping, sometime even completely stopped, the back end would give a little jump, like it decided to let the back go an extra few inches. Stopping distance was nothing close to the Stealth with only four wheel disc and no ABS. If I get a car with ABS again fine, but I am not actively looking for it. It will likely just be on the list of the sticker of the next car anyway.

Air bags can add an extra 15 to what is it, something like 20% over the safety of seatbelts. Getting people to use the belts is number one. I am thinking the side air bags may be something I would add, if it is opt. only.

Never owned a car with traction control, as far as I can recall, but would get it with a Mustang. May come with the Charger. Thinking about those cars lately. With FWD, I guess it helps. I don't have it, but I do have plenty of torque steer. Not a fan of FWD. On full acceleration, off the line, FWD is just awful as the weight shifts to the back and the tires lift.

ESC may work as billed. Or in the case of the wrong programming, not work. Some Sonata got recalled, as in banked cornering it came on too aggressively. A computer doesn't really know all the conditions at hand. As for drifting, I can't afford new tires every day or week. Don't have rich parents supporting strange habits.
-Loren

jaxs1

I guess the point of pumping the brakes when you don't have ABS is that people lock the wheels during panic stops and if you pump the brakes, they would unlock every time you let off and allow some steering control so you could make some steering corrections to maneuver around obstacles. If you turn the wheel while the front wheels are locked, the car will keep plowing forward as if you didn't turn the wheel.

Trying to "threshold brake" would be pretty difficult to do manually since you would never know if you were really at the threshold until the wheel locked, so you would never be at the maximum braking effort. Most people end up slamming on the brakes anyway if there is really some unexpected object in their path and are making a true "panic stop." Their ability to carefully and skillfully brake to the exact threshold of wheel lock may exist only in their minds or while practicing on a track.
That is what ABS is supposed to do for you. You simply slam on the brakes and it will brake to the threshold and adjust braking on individual wheels as needed (which you cannot do yourself with manual brakes)

m1miata

Often wondered how brakes can stop you in a shorter distance if you are fairly close to an object when using ABS. If these allow roll and thus not locked, then tighten, can you really stop faster than a lock up or lock up - let off- lockup? I can see over a longer distance, due to reduced skidding, it may indeed stop shorter, but what about those cars 30 to 50 foot ahead of you?
I think all of today's brakes stop like magic compared to the 1960's cars. Another interesting thing is when asked, most people I talked to, did not know if their car had anti-lock brakes. So how do they know how to react?

As for steering and braking. I always look for an out first, then stopping second if pretty close to what is ahead. Nice to steer without braking, with or without anti-lock. You are sending the weight to the front wheels when braking - not the best deal for steering. When I have a stick, I like the gear down on turns, and use the braking early on, and use the power to pull on through. I think with the understeer and possible complete lockup of the front wheels due to FWD, the ABS became the life saver. Well, I guess it is. Hopefully better than that of GM in 1992. Trying to get the front to turn on FWD with all the weight and the braking and the redistribution of weight, is pretty exciting in some cases no doubt if you are entering a turn with recklous abandon. I guess the back end on FWD would get light though, so maybe it comes around on you as sort of a forced oversteer, then you could lightly accelerate again.
Never really pushed a FWD that much. And no, never got the RWD really sideways, just a little chirp or two out of the groove. I am fairly conservative. The Miata brings out a strange sense of overconfidence. No longer own one, but they are fun.
-loren

backy

[Hyundai is] The only company making inexpensive cars with ESC.

That is inaccurate. The lowest-price car Hyundai makes with ESC is the Sonata GLS for just under $18k. Toyota makes some less-expensive models with ESC, such as the Corolla (optional) and xB (standard). Now, Hyundai is to be commended for making ESC standard on the Sonata. But it hasn't brought ESC to below the mid-sized class yet as has Toyota.

jaxs1

Despite what the option sheet might say, you can only get ESC on completely fully loaded Corollas that cost more than the lowest price Sonata. The factory only makes certain combinations of options and an otherwise stripped LE or CE with VSC isn't one of those combinations that are actually built and shipped to dealers.
So, maybe the xB is the cheapest with ESC if ESC is standard, but the xB doesn't have side curtain airbags, so the Sonata probably is the safest new car for the money.

backy

Safest new car for the money? How about the Rabbit, which comes with ESC, ABS, 6 airbags (8 available on the 5-door) starting at $16k? The Rabbit 5-door has excellent IIHS crash-test scores (3-door hasn't been tested yet). Also, the Civic has even better IIHS crash scores and standard ABS starting at about $15k. So I can't agree the Sonata is the safest car for the money, but it is certainly up there due to all its standard safety features and good crash-test scores.

jaxs1

ESC is a $450 option on the Rabbit. Who knows how loaded up with other options the car will have to be to find one with that option sitting on a dealer lot. It might be the same as the Corolla where they only ship fully loaded models with ESC.
Just because the website lets you check the ESC box without checking boxes on other options doesn't mean you will ever find one like that.
Anyway, suppose you can really buy a new Rabbit 4-door with ESC, automatic and no other options. The MSRP is still $19,145.

The MSRP for a 2007 Sonata GLS automatic is $18,295.

Still cheaper anyway. I still don't see any other new vehicle with all the safety features for less than a Sonata.

None at all, not even in lower size classes.

The Rabbit is not that inexpensive at all.

kdshapiro

It's not the safest car for the least $$$, it's the safest car in the class for the least $$$. Somehow I don't think the Rabbit or Corolla or Civic fit into the Midsize Comparisons thread.

njerald

The 2006 Rabbit comes with TC standard but stability control is an option per their website.

bobad

ESC: "I'm a great driver, so I will never benefit from ESC, plus I don't want that 'electronic nanny' to stop me from doing high speed drifting skids like in the '2 Fast 2 Furious' movie."

There's no excuse for not having ESC. Those who think they are a legendary driver can always switch it off. ESC is an important piece of a good overall safety package. I feel a little better with ESC when my wife is driving in the rain.

backy

Did I say stability control is standard on the Rabbit? No.

Personally I would put crash protection ahead of ESC. But everyone has his/her own priorities. With a little work, Hyundai could improve the side crash protection on the Sonata and then have a truly class-leading car for safety, both active and passive.

jaxs1

"Comes with ESC" definitely implied it."
Anyway, I said for the money and even subtracting the $450 optional ESC, the Rabbit 4-door with automatic costs more than a Sonata automatic and it's in a lower size class yet still has worse fuel economy.

jimmy81

Yea fine. But I'd bet ya a dollar that 4 out of 5 car buyers in this segment don't even look that close at the safety features of these cars. You go 30 years without ever having an accident of any significance and the number of air bags in a car falls down the list of must haves.

Not to diminish safety features, but most cars have air bags and Stability Control and anti-lock brakes, crumple zones etc. etc. etc. and buyers know this.

Avoiding accidents carries as much, if not more weight in my book. And that's where the driver comes in. A weak driver in a 'safer' car is still in jeopardy.

m1miata

Rabbit is the least expensive car coming out of Germany, if that means anything. It is not like they are making anything on the first models. At $15K starting price, it is pretty low considering the value of the Eurodollar. Must be some good hedging of money, or something to keep German cars so low in price in comparison to what they should be using pricing of a couple decades ago, and projecting that into today's money.

Best bang for the buck, I imagine is the Sonata. Not everyone is going to want a Sonata however. I am thinking the starting price with discounts on a Sonata should be around $16K. Best deal in RWD must go to Dodge, with the Charger at $23K, and discounted to say $21K or less. Must be the value leader. As for size, it is a mid-size car, if in the 1960s, and is not really but perhaps 9" longer than others in the mid-sized class.
-Loren

kwonc71

Jay Lee's Hyundai in Portland, OR. $14,333 for 4 cylinder, and $15,333 for GLS v6 Sonatas this week after $500 owners rebate. Cheaper than Rabbit.

luvmbooty

You won't think it's funny if some dope blinds sides you in a Maxima with your grandkids in the back seat! :surprise: Even with standard side airbags it received a MARGINAL rating on side crashes, while the Malibu received a GOOD rating with optional side airbags.

I wasn't implying that the Malibu is a better car, because it's not, but you would think that, with the all the money your paying for the Maxima, you'd receive better protection, at least on par with an inferior Malibu. :P

jlemoine

Your not talking about a new Civic for 15k! I bought a Sonata because when I shopped this year Civics were 2500 bucks more than the Sonata 15.2k vs 17.7k.

luvmbooty

Good thing you didn't buy the Civic. Problems with suspension and more. What trim did you get? 4 or 6 cyl?

lahiri

2006 Accord VP (4 cyl, auto) is selling for 17K in Rochester-NY area. Of course, the dealers sold them (the VP Accords) all and I don't see them in the lot any more.

backy

The 2006 Civic DX 4-door lists at $15,355 and the Edmunds TMV in my area is $14,817. That is in the $15k ballpark I mentioned. I assume you were shopping for a higher trim line of the Civic, right?

I agree the Sonata is a great value in its class, especially the V6 with its higher rebates than the I4s.

jlemoine

I was talking about cars that were actually available for sale. In my area stripped Civics only exist in the price guides, Guess just talking price I could have quoted a 4cyl Std tranny Sonata for a little over 14 but then again that can't be found either.

backy

Let's compare apples to apples here. The MSRP for the 2007 Sonata GLS automatic including destination charge is $18,895, not $18,295. (You included destination on the Rabbit, but not the Sonata.) So for $250 more, on the Rabbit you get a 6-speed automatic (vs. 4-speed), heated power driver's seat with lumbar support, heated passenger seat with lumbar support, CD changer with 10 speakers and some other features not on the Sonata. To get a power seat (non-heated) on the Sonata GLS (critical IMO since the manual seat slopes down too much), add at least $500. So with comparable equipment (actually more equipment), the Rabbit actually lists for less than the Sonata. In addition, you can get 8 airbags on the Rabbit if you want extra crash protection in back.

backy

I seriously doubt 4 of 5 buyers in the mid-sized (i.e. "family") sedan segment don't look that closely at the safety features of these cars. More like the converse of that. All you need is one accident where an airbag or ESC or ABS reduces or eliminates serious injury to you or a family member to make these safety features "priceless" (in the words of a credit card commercial).

I agree a weak driver in a safer car is still in jeopardy. But I can do nothing about all the weaker drivers out there, except to watch out for them and drive in as safe a car that I can, all things considered.

jaxs1

I was not talking about CD changers, heated seats and 10 speaker stereos, just safety equipment for the money. Even comparing MSRPs, the Sonata cost less. When you factor in the real word prices that actually matter, after the rebates and other discounts, the prices aren't even close.
The VW manages worse mpg than an automatic Sonata despite the optional 6-speed automatic that should have increased the fuel economy.
Until he new Elantra comes out, the Sonata is the lowest priced 4-door automatic car you can buy with side curtain airbags and ESC.

joe97

No denying both the Sonata and the Golf having great values.

At the same time the Golf having some advantages over the Sonata, the Sonata has other advantages over the Golf (e.g. ESC w/ TCS); not too mention the Sonata is larger, rommier, powerful, and quiter for a large sedan.

driverdm

VW and Hyundai are two different car makers and are not really comparable on price. Hyundai's claim to fame is value and reliability. VW's claim to fame is Germen engineering, quality, and value pricesd luxury. Basically, Hyundai is a value priced Honda, VW is a value priced BMW. To compare a Golf and Sonata just based on features and space and price is meaningless. You'd have to get into quality of materials which is part of VW's claim to fame, driving dynamics (another VW plus), seating material and design (another VW plus) and attention to detail like the Passat's ability to allow you to set how long you want the ambient light to stay on after you open the door. The Passat has over 100 features and many are not found in other cars, i.e. an umbrella holder or a sensor that closes the windows and moonroof if you left them open and the car detects rain. Each of there features individual may not mean much, but added together and given the high quality interiors and good engines, they equal a value priced luxury car.

PS. The Jetta is over priced and should have been still born. I am fair, I list the goods with the bads.

m1miata

... and multiplying just as fast as rabbits

Surprised to see GM mid-sized cars still selling, but ya never know. Not the lowest price and value like the Hyundai, the reputation and resale of Toyota and Honda, or AWD like the Subaru, or the handling of a German car, one would think a GM to be a hard sell. What is left; GM style? I think that left a few decades ago. G6 GTP Coupe is sorta in the ballpark on looks, but this thread is sedans of mid-size. Go up a little in size and the Charger offers RWD. Ford sort of hangs in there with the Fusion, which has some style, even with the big butt. Taken with all things considered, will the Fusion be enough to win over customers. What is the selling point to todays American car vs. all the rest?
-Loren