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Hyundai Azera vs Toyota Avalon vs Ford Taurus vs Chevrolet Impala
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Hyundai, IMO, is easily building the second best car of this group (and beyond), closer in quality and performance to the Avalon - and still manages to do it for substantially less money. Part of an aggressive strategy, I suppose, to make some inroads into that market share that the 'American' mfgrs are literally giving to them. It does surprise me a bit that Hyundai has been discounting both the Sonata and Azera as much as they have - both cars are too good for too much of that to be necessary.
Hope you continue to enjoy your Azera!
If you think 260 hp is all you'll ever need, then be happy with it. I guess that means we'll never see you bragging about Toyota or Honda if they ever exceed that number because it will be overkill, right?
Besides which, even the slowest car of this group, the Azera, is faster than many of those Detroit 'musclecars' of the 60s/70s, look it up. And are Toyota/Nissan getting the same 300hp out of their 3.5 litre V6s, yes - are those cars more economical than the SS, yes - do they have enough sense to junk the FWD in these cases, yes (because they understand what they are doing)- and will GM ever be able to come up with competitive smaller engines, probably not.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Any car can have to much power. If the tires squeal and spin when you punch it you have to much power.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Toyota did a great job 'engineering out' the TS incidentally, unlike my wife's V6 Altima that always seems to be 'tugging'. There are, as most of us understand, some inherent traction/stability advantages to FWD layouts but still all three of these cars would be better served in a dynamic sense with RWD. But they aren't supposed to be sports cars or drag racers, are they?
sorry, didn't get you point - this, of course, right on!
999/1000 times you don't need any more power than you could get out of the Five Hundred to avoid trouble. And 99/100 times, the driver who tried to USE that extra power (when it was required) would find it got him into more trouble.
Recently read a Lincoln MK review, apparently that new Ford 3.5 while not groundbreaking in any way, is competitive not only in terms of HP but also in terms of smooth/quiet - which is more than I can say for the GM/Chrysler versions.
I did look at the 500 - and found it a suprisingly well designed and apparently well put together car. It did not 'make the cut', however, simply because there was nothing about it that I thought made it fun to drive - an appliance if you will. And I didn't even know about the new Avalon at the time either - having just come out, the Avalon not even on my list because it too (2004 and earlier), cars with the same problem as the 500
And, yes, given the way people drive around here, I'd just as soon they NOT put a bigger engine in ANY of the vehicles of this size.
It's obvious we aren't going to agree on the makes/models we prefer. It has been fun discussing this with you all of you and really puts the decisions that the designers make into a new light. Luckily for all of them, there are enough of each of us to keep them all in business. In the end, dollars decide what each manufacturer will produce. My SS is a niche but I'm glad that GM produces it for me.
The V-6 powered vehicles discussed here are more mainstream and that's why far more of them are sold. But I think you're selling Detroit short, regardless of where the vehicles are actually built. Time will tell but Chrysler and GM have already turned the corner. Ford still has its problems but will rebound once its new generation of vehicles get established...at least that's how I see it.
yep everyone has above average driving skills, just ask them.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Check it out - GM lost $10 billion this year, and continues to lose $2500.00 on every vehicle they sell, they are losing even more this year, Ford loses almost as much as GM domestically but makes enough in Europe primarily to almost break even. Chrysler with their stranglehold on the minivan market and a couple of marketable models in the 300 and Charger is doing a little better but only because they do have some Deutsch marks behind them to do something.
The fact is that none of the three will be able to do anything without some serious concessions/renegotiations with the UAW and/or they move pretty much all production out of this country. Much as Ford is now doing, closing 14 plants and moving more and more production to places like Mexico. GM, of course doing the same thing, but they seem to be targeting a good part of their abandonment of the US to the Far East. Kind of ironic that the American worker is effectively putting some of the largest American companies in these positions because it will be that UAW worker that ends up without a job. Also kind of ironic that the most 'American' cars will soon have and, in some cases already do have, Japanese and Korean names.
IMO, the only reason that the 'US' mfgrs. even survived this long - easing gas prices and the SUV/truck craze. At $3/gallon+ and more and more buyers trading in their SUV for something more economical, the buyers will begin to understand something that has been true for more than 25 years - 'Detroit' does not know how to build a competitive car, they gave that market to the Japanese/Europeans way back in the 70s/80s, and nor are they likely to start - they simply do not have the money to develop the products.
But if GM does survive, it will only be because the US taxpayer floats a loan, or possibly that Nissan goes ahead and buys them - and then hopefully the market will accept the world's first Chinese built Buick.
Yeah, I know and it might even be true of the participants of this forum since we all care enough to discuss the issues. My point was that those who claim cars are overpowered are basing it on their level of skill and presuming to make decisions for others.
To address one of the points in an earlier post, even if a car has enough power to overcome its traction from a standing start, that extra power would still be useful in other instances, say passing on the highway for one.
If a car has "too much" power for you to handle, then don't buy it. Personally, I'll take the extra power and improve my skills to match.
I for one do not assess my claim that a particular car is overpowered by anyones driving skill. Yes there are cars out there that are beyond some drivers skills but that doesn't make a car overpowered. I have addressed one aspect that would determine if a car is overpowered. There are others, but I will not go into those right now.
even if a car has enough power to overcome its traction from a standing start, that extra power would still be useful in other instances, say passing on the highway for one.
Lets be honest, if you actually need that extra power (you know the extra power to overcome your traction) for a pass you are making an unsafe pass.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
If accelerating quickly into a fast moving line of traffic, or passing that semi with plenty of room to spare is 'unsafe', then I guess we certainly have a different definition of what a good (and safe) car should be.
Sincerely hope that you don't end up in a new '08 500, at 268 hp it will have the same sort of power that the Avalon/Azera/Impala SS do - and therefore will be dangerous!
Ah the big resale value lie. Don't look at the percentage of depreciation look at the total dollar amount. Sure the Azera might loss more of a percentage of its sales price but the Avalon costs more to begin with. Sure the Avalon resells for $4K more than the Azera after 3 years but the Avalon cost $5K more to begin with. Not a good deal if you ask me. It seems to me that shouting "I have a higher resale value" is just justifying paying more.
Secondly I would hate to be the one going around saying "I really like the other car much better but then hey I have much better resale vale".
Finally the longer you keep a car the less resale is an issue. I would bet that the value between the two cars after 10 years and 200K miles will be very slight.
Why pay more when you can get more bang for your buck?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Who would keep a vehicle for 10 years or 200K? After four years, my vehicles have 100,000 miles on them, and they are history! Reason, ---- I can only get a 100,000 mile extended factory warranty on the vehicle. I would never own a vehicle without an extended warranty. These new "high tech" vehicles are just TOO EXPENSIVE to repair!
At the present time, I am looking for a new vehicle. I like the Ford 500, the Mercury Montego, the Chevrolet Impala and the Toyota Camry. I looked at the Hyundai Azera, but I don't want to take a chance on the poor dealer network. (SERVICE FOR ME IS VERY IMPORTANT, and I do not want to deal with a Chrysler Dealer). If I go with am American vehicle, it will most likely be the Chevrolet Impala. My second choice will either be the Ford or Mercury. It all depends on the total financial package, (cost of the vehicle, cost of the factory extended warranty and trade in value on the 2003 Accord). The Toyota will be a the first choice on a foreign vehicle. While I like the Honda Accord, I find the ride TOO HARD! If I can't make an acceptable deal on the above listed vehicles, I might reconsider the Honda Accord. ---- Best regards. ---- Dwayne
There is a small (and I believe growing) number of people who do. Currently my daily drive is pushing 7 years and 140K miles. I do hope to get it beyond 200K miles and will take it as far as it will go.
I would never own a vehicle without an extended warranty. These new "high tech" vehicles are just TOO EXPENSIVE to repair!
As far as I am concerned I will keep a car as long as the repair costs (including the "hassle" factor) are under the monthly payment of a new car.
Presently I am not in the market for a new car and hopefully won't be for a few more years.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Compared to my Impala, the Montego is a much nicer vehicle overall. Exponentially better build quality and fit and finish. Interior materials sturdier and of higher quality. More controlled ride (based on my opinion as a passenger). Rear seat room is cavernous compared to the Impala. I haven't had any time behind the driver's seat, but they say that the power with the 3.0L engine is perfectly adequate. They also recently got 29mpg on a mostly highway trip.
I have 4,000 miles on my Impala, and do not see it as a vehicle that I will keep more than 36,000 miles or so. Interior build quality is disappointing with numerous creaks and rattles. Gas mileage is not where I was hoping it to be. It is rated at 21city and 31 highway, however I have not seen better than 22-23mpg in mixed driving. I was hoping for 25mpg average. I have been trying to drive much more "gingerly" the past week to see what impact that has, and I did see 24mpg on the average economy gauge briefly. However, as soon as you accelerate to merge with traffic, the mileage drops back down to the 22-23 range.
From a service standpoint, I have only dealt with the Chevy dealer once with my Impala so far and it was a waste of my time. They did the bare minimum to try and resolve my issue (I ended up fixing it myself after they didn't want to/couldn't). My first oil change/tire rotation will be coming up soon. Will have to see how that goes.
My parents have dealt with the Mercury dealer once so far to get an additional key programmed for the Montego and were very impressed with the courtesy and overall level of attention given to them. The Mercury dealer also gives them free oil changes every 5,000 miles for the life of the vehicle. Nice perk.
As a side note, my previous vehicle was a Chrysler product. The Chrysler service department was the absolute best I had ever dealt with. I never had any concerns when I needed to take the vehicle to them.
There is a small (and I believe growing) number of people who do."
Yep.. gotta agree.. currently in my garage are two vehicles, a 2006 GMC Envoy and a 2007 Toyota Avalon.. however, when we bought the Envoy, we traded in a 10 year old Cadillac with 125k miles on it, and when we bought the Avy, I traded in a 15 year old oldsmobile with 160K on it. Surprisingly the Caddy started giving me trouble much sooner than the Olds did, in fact I traded it in when we did because it developed some kind of engine problem where antifreeze was getting into the cylinders and the dealership quoted me between 35 hundred and 4 grand to fix it... :mad: say goodbye caddilac... and I traded the olds in simply because it was starting ( just starting ) to nickle and dime me to death and I really didn't feel comfortable putting it on a roadtrip when it was 15 years old...but I gotta tell you, I sure loved driving either of those cars for all the years that we had them where there were no car payments...
Roland
Last car was a 2002 Mazda Milenia with 208,000 miles on it & "0" repair cost other than normal maintenance. Current ride is an 06 Avalon with over 26,000 miles on it already.
Maintain todays cars properly & you will get 150,000 plus miles out of them with minimal or no problems.
That is reason I added 100,000 miles bumper to bumper warranty. A/C replacement or window operators can become expensive. Labor at about $80 to $90 per hour run repair bills up fast.
would argue the opposite - whether it be mfgr. or 3rd party extended warranties, the folks offering them do make money doing it obviously because the car in question will not (on average) require an amount of repairs equal or greater to the amount charged for the warranty.
Based on actual repair histories and repair costs, a survey of extended warranty costs gives a good indicator of how expensive a vehicle will be to operate over the longer term.
I own a 2003 Honda Accord four cylinder automatic with a 7 year 100,000 mile Honda Care extended warranty. I do a lot of driving all over the United States! My vehicle presently has 83,000 miles. To date, the Honda Care Extended Warranty has put in $3,000.00 + worth of repairs. The warranty at the time of purchase was $895.00! I think this was a "GREAT Investment"! ---- What do you think? ---- Best regards. ---- Dwayne
I hate to say this but I wouldn't be bragging about that.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
One never knows what might go wrong with a car, and the extended warranty gives peace of mind with limited down side.
What is your point? I had nothing to do with the quality of the component parts that failed! (AC compressor, Cat Converter, Window regulator assembly, Radio display, Motor mounts. ---etc). ---- The vehicle is serviced at the dealer every 3,000 miles. Please explain your position!------Best regards. ---- Dwayne
While it gives peace of mind to some I have found that in most instances an extended warranty is good money down the drain. With most cars you would be better off putting the money for the warranty in an interest bearing account and using it for any repairs.
But my comment was on the Honda Accord with 83K miles needing at least $3K worth of warranty work.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
My point is if the average Honda required that $3 grand to keep it running for 100k than the warranty price would be well over that $3000, not the $895 you paid. We all have horror stories, and there is some value to peace of mind and some protection from those saboteurs otherwise known as 'mechanics'.
My last 6 cars incidentally [3] Nissans, and [3] Suburbans total mileage - about 900,000 - total repairs $1200 for a tranny rebuild on one of the Chevys, and another coupla hundred for an alternator. My Avalon with only 40k yet to be back in the shop except for an oil leak TSB.
I would say that for those who drive a lot of highway miles not to bother with an extended warranty (unless you're really suspicious about the reliability) because of the improved quality of cars. I actually did buy an extended warranty for my Ford Freestyle because I'm suspicious of the new CVT transmission, plus this car gets a lot of suburb driving versus all highway. I'm buying a Honda Fit to replace my Cougar and I'm definitely not bothering with an extended warranty.
On the question of getting rid of cars once they reach 100K miles. That's fine, but in the long run more expensive. For example you buy a car for $25K and after 4 years and 100k miles it's paid off. If you trade it in and buy a new car, you're lucky to get $5K for the car because of the mileage, so now you're financing another $20K for 4 years. So in reality you're paying $5000 per year every year by trading in your 4yr old 100k mile car. Even if you put in $1000 per year in repairs, you're still better off than making your constant $5000/year in car payments. Especially with Hondas and Toyotas. Their reliability is really good and you could keep the car 10 years and $200k miles and only have to put in a few thousand over the lifetime on the car in repairs, which sure beats $5000/year in constant car payments.
Extended warranties are really just another way for a company to make money. You buy a TV, cellphone, toaster, new home, or whatever, and there will be the offer of an extended warranty to play on your fears of the unexpected huge repair cost, but like the previous poster indicated, the fact that companies are making huge profits on extended warranties mean that they don't pay out nearly as much as they bring in.
First off I don't trust CR any further than I can throw a bull elephant. That being said in all the cars I have had (including those that had bad reliability ratings from CR) non of them would have used an extended warranty. And I have driven some of those cars rather hard.
On the question of getting rid of cars once they reach 100K miles. That's fine, but in the long run more expensive. For example you buy a car for $25K and after 4 years and 100k miles it's paid off. If you trade it in and buy a new car, you're lucky to get $5K for the car because of the mileage, so now you're financing another $20K for 4 years.
They typical driver will take 80 months ( six and two thirds years) to get to the 100K mark. This means that they can save up those monthly payments for an additional downpayment. Say you buy that $25K car with a 10% downpayment and pay off the loan in 5 years saving the payment for the next 20 months. When it comes time to trade in you have close to $10K saved and the $5K as a trade in. Now suppose the new car is $32.5K ($25K adjusted at an inflation rate of 4% per year) you can now buy the car at the same payments but at a loan term of one year less.
But of course keeping the car longer makes even better financial sense.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I have two Classic 900 SAABs, one is 22 years old and the other 20 years old. Both have MAJOR miles on them, and I perform all maintenance. The bodies and mechanicals are in excellent condition (no major engine or transmission work as yet) - why not drive them? I'd rather put car payments or lease payments into a bank, or investment, accounts.
I have a different philosophy of life! I would rather have a "new vehicle" every three or four years, and enjoy the "creature comforts" of life. Too many of my friends are already dead! Enjoy your money, because you can't take it with you. If you save it, the "nursing home will get it", and the owners of the "home" will buy themselves a new vehicle. ---- Best regards. --------- Dwayne :shades:
Why should I sell it before the 100,000 mile mark? Honda is picking up all the major repairs. I am riding on Honda's Dime! :shades: This is Great! All I do, is have the vehicle serviced every 3,000 miles, and the rest is Honda's responsibility. If a major component goes between 83,000 and 100,000 miles it is Honda's problem. I am ahead of the "financial game! I am a winner, in the game of extended warranties!
Really? Does Honda pay you for the time you spend taking your car in and picking it up or your time waiting for your car (if you wait for it)? Does Honda pay for the inconvenience of having to take your car in? I don't think so.
There is a greater cost to getting a car fixed than just paying for the repairs.
If a major component goes between 83,000 and 100,000 miles it is Honda's problem.
It is also your problem as you have to deal with a car that at best is working poorly and at worst leaves you stranded. You also have to deal with getting your car to the dealership, not having your car and picking it up. Is that Hondas problem? No thats yours.
I tell you what, you tell me how much its Hondas problem and not yours if you are in the middle of the country 5 miles from the nearest town at 2 AM in the middle of winter when its 10 degrees out.
I am a winner, in the game of extended warranties!
If you want to believe that go right ahead. I rather have a car that doesn't break down.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
If you have owned cars that have never had a componant failure in 10 years or 100,000 miles, you are probably the first one. Congratulations!
A/C unit replacement runs in average $2500.
Power door locks or window activators $300-$400.
The story goes on!