What is "wrong" with these new subcompacts?

nippononly

If that's one of the questions, then I would pose another: why do we allow these enormous modern trucks to be driven by people that have no special licensing requirements? I mean, seriously. You have experience driving an HD truck, and you were still caught off guard. Had it been a Pilot instead of a Civic, there would still have potentially been extensive injury and damage, by the sound of it. In fact, I am confident that it would have been little if any worse in the Civic than in the Pilot. Modern cars are designed to ansorb an amazing amount of impact energy while still maintaining an intact passenger compartment.

I think it's only logical to require that any vehicle with a GVWR high enough to exempt it from CAFE requirements be driven only by someone who has a commercial driver's license like the school bus drivers and the semi drivers get.

Size disparity has become a problem on our roads, I agree, but that is a two-tiered problem. If we are going to blame the small cars and ask rhetorically how those drivers could be so fond of risk that they would drive such a car, we also have to ask how drivers of the oversized monster vehicles could be so unconscionable, don't we?

boaz47

In the US we have been driving larger vehicles far longer than we have sub compacts. I don't believe that was the point I was trying to make. The point is more directly related to the posted remarks about the NHTSA study showing an increase in deaths related to small cars. daysailer has indicated, and he can correct me if I have taken his remarks out of context, that despite the study he prefers to trust in his ability to avoid the accident over worrying about what happens if he is in an accident. Most motorcycle riders understand and accept that cars have an advantage in any car verses motorcycle accident. They have not suggested that cars be made even smaller to increase their chances but rather rely on their own skill to account for their own safety.

In other words motorcycle riders take the NHTSA studies indicating what the injury and death rate is and accept that as part of the price for their choices. Is that going to be the attitude of Sub Compact drivers if this study is indicating a trend?

nippononly

Well, when you begin to liken vehicles that weigh 2500 pounds or more and seat five people to motorcycles, I see it as evidence that the largest vehicles on the road have gotten too large to be competently driven by someone whose only licensing has involved the 3-minute "so can you parallel park? OK, you're done" standard that regular licensees have met.

I am tempted to start a new topic, something like "size disparity on our roads, how do we solve the problem?", but it doesn't sound very sexy and I bet there consequently wouldn't be many posts...

boaz47

You might be right. But it has been a problem for a very long time. In 1971 or 74 we bought our first compact. We got it because it was good on gas and could seat 4 people pretty well. It was ugly even for a early compact. If you remember the Cricket? Anyway we sold it and bought a Duster because of the shoulder room. I am very north American when it comes to how close I want to sit next to anyone. But between 1974 and 1989 a lot of our friends started getting small cars. Between 1989 and 1995 All of those friends of ours moved into mini vans and SUVs. We had one friend that had never given in to the small car purchase and has always had a full size car or truck. when asked why he replied, When everyone else starts driving small cars I will. But as long as I am out numbered by Mini vans and pickup trucks I want something I can push back with.

I know it is a bad example but I am not sure it isn't an easy attitude to develop.

andre1969

I guess if you want to get technical, the first cars were subcompacts. Stuff like the old Model T, Olds Curved Dash runabout, etc.

I'd imagine though, that there has been a size disparity for as long as there have been vehicles. I wonder if back in the old days, people with those little single-axle carts were terrified of people riding around in those massive Conestogas? :P

humblecoder

I think ALL drivers should be subject to stricter licensing. As you point out, those motor vehicle tests are a joke. All vehicles have the potential to cause a lot of injury and damage if operated improperly. You're just as dead if you are run over by a Yaris as you are if you are run over by a Suburban. Besides, a small sporty car driven by some youngster, that zip around, weaving in and out of traffic, are more of a hazard than the minivan driving soccer mom.

Also, there will always be "size disparities" on the road... motorcycles, cars, SUVs, minivans, pickups, trucks, buses, etc. Not sure if I'd characterize it as a "problem to be solved", but a fact of life that we have to deal with.

Mr_Shiftright

You can take raw traffic death statistics and throw them out the window.

Why? Because of mitigating factors which are HUGE.

Fer instance---50% of all traffic deaths were for people not wearing seat belts.

And we're not quitre sure how many of the dead ones were drunk or impaired. A goodly number at any rate.

So you would really have to post statistics on small car deaths driven by belted, sober drivers.

And I haven't even thought of the other reasons for the deaths.

I suppose one could argue that big car drivers are just as dumb as small car drivers when it comes to disregarding seat belts or driving drunk, but that might not be so, nor provable one way or the other. Perhaps small car drivers are more cautious by nature and big SUV drivers more arrogant. Who knows?

grbeck

I recall reading that young, male drivers of pickups - especially compact pickups - had the lowest rate of seat belt usage of any group. They were also more likely to drink and drive. Can't remember the source of those interesting facts.

Accident reports in the local paper almost always note whether the person killed was wearing a safety belt. Most people who were killed were not wearing safety belts.

Mr_Shiftright

I wonder how many lives they'd save if they didn't put those silly push bumpers on SUVs that negotiate the trackless wastes of their local shopping malls. Bad enough I have to dodge these things without having battering rams welded onto them.

stever

"At just under 9 feet long, the Smart car is about 3 feet shorter than the Mini Cooper and 7 feet shorter than the Ford Explorer. At 1,800 pounds, it's about 4,500 pounds lighter than an empty Hummer H2."

Mini to the max: Will the Smart car grow on U.S. drivers? (CNN)

robertsmx

Speaking of driver's license, and the process involved, I was talking to a colleague of mine whose daughter is ready to get one. She is getting a hand-me-down Explorer from the family but for licensing purpose, she went thru her driving school which uses Hyundai Accent because they are, apparently, easier to parallel park.

I do agree on introducing a standard on size/weight of vehicle. We already have a classification, but that includes everything from a Ford Festiva to Ford Excursion. If motorcycle riders need special license, so should anybody choosing to drive something medium to heavy duty.

oregonboy

It amazes me that the manufacturers of those so-called "brush guards" haven't been sued into oblivion by the families of pedestrians who have been sliced and diced by those things. They are so common that you KNOW that they must have contributed to dozens (perhaps hundreds?) of pedestrian fatalities. :sick:

But hey, as lisailer used to say, brush-guards are an essential part of the "Adventure Guy" image. :lemon:

james

stever

Bull bars have been banned on new car sales in the European Union since 2001 due to pedestrian injuries. (BBC) It sounds like aftermarket ones have been banned since May of this year, unless it can meet "non-rigidity" standards. (link).

Mr_Shiftright

Good bye and good riddance!

boaz47

But in the US we aren't even supposed to hit pedestrians. :confuse: Does it matter if we have a brush guard on the Front of a F-350 Powerstroke and slam into them at 30 MPH? Or even 25 MPH? In fact if we happen to be watching local news out here in the LA area most of our deaths seem to be from Street racers in compact cars. I know it may not be the case but that is what makes it onto the nightly news.

I don't have a brush guard on my truck now but if I decide to start taking vacations driving in the Great state of Texas I will be adding one. After seeing all the road kill in that state I know why all the pickups and some cars have them. They have dead deer on the side of the road about every five miles along interstate 10. I would hate to see the vehicle without a serious brush guard that hit one of those at 65 or 70.

Then again I am not sure what brush guards have to do with sub compacts unless they pose a danger to them greater than they do to any other vehicle.

Mr_Shiftright

Well they could learn not to hit a deer. They aren't that hard to miss most of the time and they never hit the grill anyway...all long-legged animals go over the hood. Now a hog---a brushguard would come in handy for THAT.

Yeah, the discussion was centering around the comment that small deaths are slightly ahead of larger car deaths, and we were tossing around various reasons why that might be so aside from being the car's fault. It takes two to tango and two to have (most) crashes, so we should look at both vehicles involved seems to me.

qbrozen

do you live in deer country? I'm just wondering because they are hard to MISS in my experience. I mean, those damned things will run right into the side of your car. To the point at hand, of course, when they do that, brush guards won't help.

But, anyway, they are way less cautious and seemingly less intelligent when it comes to crossing the road. My father had one run into the rear passenger door of his Nissan Maxima company car when we were young, then later the rear panel of his Blazer. My wife just had one run into the front fender of the Pacifica last week (no damage, though, thankfully). I had one last year try to take on our baby Benz. Ran right up to the passenger fender and I turned the wheel, at which point he also turned and actually started running next to the car. Of all animals, definitely the strangest behavior around fast moving metal machines I've ever witnessed have been from deer.

Mr_Shiftright

I'm not saying you can't have bad luck with a deer, only that usually cars hit THEM, they don't broadside cars. If a kid ran in front of your car, do you think they'd just let you off? No, they'd ask if you were speeding, did you see the "kids" sign, were you on your cell phone, etc. So that's all I'm saying. It's not always the deer's fault by a long shot.

Besides, my real point was that a brush guard doesn't help you when you hit a long-legged animal. They go over the hood.

I get deer in my back yard and believe me, I would like to run them over sometime! (they like roses for some reason). :mad:

Anyway, no more battering rams on luxury SUVs please.

qbrozen

Also, I've probably had at least a dozen close encounters with deer over the years, and not a single close call with a pedestrian.

Anyhoo ... I don't have such equipment on my vehicles now, but I did have both front and rear guards on my '87 4runner back in college. The front bumper I used twice in 4 years to push disabled vehicles. That's all the use I got out of it. The rear saved my vehicle twice when folks rearended me, and I loved it. This one putz totalled his car hitting me on the Belt Parkway. I drove away without a scratch. So while I probably wouldn't use a front brushguard again, I'd definitely use a rear steel bumper if available (of course, with the way vehicles are designed these days, you really can't replace the rear bumper without destroying the looks).

Mr_Shiftright

Oh in the REAR, that's totally different. I'd vote for SPIKES back there--LOL!

qbrozen

nice. now yer talkin.

iluvmysephia1

but I have come somewhat close. I have always seen them in time to veer out of their way. They don't seem real bright around highways, agreed.

As far as hitting kids, I've never hit one but there have been many that seem to love to do that "I'll just start walking across the road and pretend I don't see that car approaching me. Then, as the car just creeps by me, I'll walk right by it's rear end, all the time keeping up the same pace of fast-walking thing." I mean, kids need to get places fast, too, right? Yikes.

And, at our last house in Washington state, in a town called Burlington, we lived on a cul-de-sac. Some socially-challenged parent decided to put up one of those movable basketball hoops up in the street.

So, I'd come home from work and pull in to the cul-de-sac, only to have a basketball game going on in the street. Do you think these kids would stop temporarily for me to go by? The answer: sometimes! I mean, I love basketball too, but I'd also like to get to the end of the cul-de-sac after a long day of work and a hellish commute from Boeing's.

These dorks loved to frustrate me with this. Washington state is my homeland and the state I was born in but let me tell you, it's a weird place. Some great rock bands have come from Washington state and I think part of the reason for this is the angst over living with such crappy weather all the time. There have been some horrible serial killers and lots of suicides and lots of depressions and seasonal-affective disorder going on in my homeland.

Contrastingly, Arizona is the sunniest place in the U.S. My Seattle Supersonics look to be moving to OKC and it seems to me that Arizona is a great choice for my wife and I to live in. I don't notice kids playing basketball in the street here.

When I called the Burlington police department to complain about the basketball dorks they told me they would talk to them but I am quite sure they were just blowing me off. Nothing was ever done. Moving away from those star wannabe's was a joy for me.

Just some more end-times activity going on but I'd rather watch an approaching new order from the sunny state of Arizona than Washington state, that's for sure! And yes, this Stevie Ray Vaughan I'm listening to is sure hitting the spot.

Over and out.

oregonboy

I'd rather watch an approaching new order from the sunny state of Arizona than Washington state

Hey, once the old order collapses and social programs cease, Washington State will still have water. I wouldn't want to be living in a desert when the lights go off. :P

james

iluvmysephia1

SE Arizona cowtown I make my home. Arizona is facing a water crisis and there's lots of questions that will indeed need to be answered. I'd just rather watch an old order pass away from the sunny Arizona desert than gloomy-butt Warshington state. A lot of people from the Midwest tranplanted to Washington state seemed to have to pronounce it "War-shing-ton state" because of their Okie accents. Go figure it up, man.

Water consumption is a huge issue but we won't suffer as much in this dinky town as people in Tucson and especially Phoenix will. Phoenix is growing so quickly and they are unfortunately ill-equipped to handle it...water is only one of their social crisis problems to face head-on.

boaz47

I know we don't know why there is an increase in injury and deaths relating to small cars. but the large cars aren't increasing so you have to wonder if that very same increase is of any concern to the consumer?

On one hand in this forum some are asking that the SUV driver become introspective about their need for a SUV so on the other hand shouldn't we be just as concerned with sub compact drivers realizing that they are taking some extra risk, as long as the rates continue to climb, for whatever the reason?

Like the motorcycle rider the sub compact driver may feel the extra risk, if there is any, is worth it. If it is as some have suggested because younger drivers are driving smaller cars one has to wonder what they were driving before this increase in auto related deaths for small car drivers showed itself. It is just that the question must at least be asked, if over all auto related injury and deaths have been going down what is different about small cars that would cause the rate to increase?

It doesn't mean anything is wrong with Sub compacts because it could be as simply as physics.

Mr_Shiftright

I think the subcompact driver can merely look at his car and figure out that there's some risk, but the SUV owner can't merely look at his car and conceptualize the Big Picture. That's a lot to expect a car owner to deduce by just looking at his big rig.

I'm not a big fan of Social Darwinism as a traffic safety policy, on the other hand.

No car is safe. They are all dangerous. Driving is dangerous.

If 44,000 people a year died on tennis courts or football fields the sport would be banned. If 44,000 died in a war in one year the country would be in revolution.

But on the roads? It seems to be just a fact of everyday life.

it's kind of weird when you think about it.

boaz47

You may be correct but I don't see any big move towards public transportation because it is safer. I have lived most of my adult life with the big boat little boat rule drummed into my head. I knew how things worked when I rode a motorcycle for about 4 years in the late 70s and for more than 8 years every day in the 80s. For my freedom from traffic I took some risk and received some reward.

This year we have a chance to see how America will warm up to a true sub compact. The Smart will give you everything the Sub Compacts we have been talking about so far will on a daily basis. No it won't hold as much as your xA but like some have suggested earlier you could always rent something bigger if you had something to move. This should be the ultimate Sub compact so it could be a reasonable test.

Mr_Shiftright

I can't see why a company that's been in red ink all its life is suddenly going to prosper in America, of all places. Makes no sense to me. If this car can't succeed in Europe, why here?

stever

We're Americans. We'll buy anything automotive that has a German cachet to it. :P

Mr_Shiftright

East German maybe.

snakeweasel

Well they could learn not to hit a deer.

That could be very hard to do since most times the run right out in front of you with no warning at all. Especially when the tree line comes very close to the road. Deer don't look before crossing.

I live in the Chicago area and I see dead deer along the roads all the time.

jlawrence01

I'm not saying you can't have bad luck with a deer, only that usually cars hit THEM, they don't broadside cars.

On the day prior to sending a Pontiac Bonneville to the auction, one of my drivers was heading home and was stopped at a traffic light. He hears a loud thud on his passengers side. A large buck hit his car. The deer staggered off into the cornfield.

Managed to damage both doors as well as the panels on both sides. The deer left quite a lot of hair around the mirror and the door handle.

stever

I think our Western mule deer are smarter than your whitetails. Fewer of them around here anyway, although my apple tree seedlings got pruned again this week.

Pf_Flyer has them flying over his hood back in Pennsylvania. In a Rut

andre1969

Well they could learn not to hit a deer. They aren't that hard to miss most of the time and they never hit the grill anyway...all long-legged animals go over the hood. Now a hog---a brushguard would come in handy for THAT.

Spoken like a city boy! :P My uncle's '03 Corolla has been hit by deer twice. Well, the first hit, I guess, you could consider a tie, as it sort of got him on the corner, and his car ended up looking like one of those NHTSA offet crash test cars. Somehow it managed to stop the Corolla dead in its tracks. Did roughly $4900 worth of damage. Deer hopped off into the woods like nothing even happened. No blood, gore, or anything on the car. All of his coolant leaked out, and the front was pushed in just far enough to limit steering, push the radiator and fan back far enough that the fan caught on something, and wedged one of the doors shut. You'd think he'd hit an Impala (the American kind, not the African kind) rather than a generic domestic deer!

The second time, the deer hit my uncle's car on the side. Somehow that time, it didn't do any damage at all.

And speaking of Impalas, back in the 1990's, one of my neighbors had a '65 4-door sedan. One day he drove it home wrecked. I asked him about it, and he said he hit a deer. Pretty bad hit, too. Driver's side fender and door were smashed, bumper was bent, grille messed up. Fender was messed up enough that it cut into the turning area for the front tire.

I also knew somebody whose brother hit a deer with a 1986 or so Lincoln Town Car. Totaled the Lincoln...and not just because of low book value, either. Fairly recently, one of my coworkers hit a deer with a Dodge Durango. Did several thousand $ worth of damage.

Biggest problem around here is a decline of natural predators, and at the same time, destruction of habitat so the deer just don't have anywhere to go. When I was a kid, it was VERY rare to actually see a live deer around these parts. I'd see a dead one along the road once in a blue moon, but by and large, there was enough habitat for them to just keep to themselves, and just not come into contact with humans that much. Nowadays, sometimes I have to be careful walking my dog in my yard, because there will be 6-7 deer out there, walking along the forest line, and when the dog sees them he goes ballistic.

As of the 1980 census, there were about 2000 people living within the 12-13 square miles that comprise my zipcode. As of the 2000 census, it's more like 12-13,000 people. And the surrounding towns and cities have grown just as much. Seems like the deer get bolder too, as they get used to people. A few years ago, one of my roommates, in a not-so-wise moment, was walking in the woods behind my house and somehow managed to come right up to a deer. The deer didn't even flinch. He slapped it on the butt...his reasoning being that it would teach the deer to fear humans, and that would be for its own good. It took off, but I guess he's lucky that it didn't kick him!

Mr_Shiftright

Again, just a few anecdotes that show the exceptions. Most deer go right over into the windshield, hood and roof. It makes perfect sense if you look at a deer. Go ask an insurance adjuster.

I'm hoping if I buy a MINI that I can go under the deer. We have tons of deer in Santa Cruz and Marin county. A plague actually.

But it's not the number of deer, but where the deer/car encounter takes place. If you are on wooded two-laners with a 65 mph speed limit, that's bad. If it's open four-lane highway in daylight, you have to be kind of asleep to hit one I think.

stever

Car Buying: smart Car Loses in Poll (Strategies for Smart Car Buyers)

snakeweasel

Especially since the article states it was rear ended by a truck doing over 40 MPH. I am impressed.

british_rover

e have tons of deer in Santa Cruz and Marin county. A plague actually.


You need more hunters in that part of California then. Oh wait never mind its California do they even allow deer hunting there?

Mr_Shiftright

Parts of California are as red-necky as your fondest dreams! (up in Mendocino and Humboldt Counties) or more NRA than the NRA (San Diego).

No there's no hunting because the areas are too populated. The interesting thing about the Bay Area is that wildlife is right in your face in spite of the population density. This is due to massive acreage that is Nat'L Park or State Recreational areas surrounding the entire Bay Area. Blue Herons eat your goldfish. It's pretty funny.

I don't think the SMART has any more chance of being a "hit" in America than an Edsel would being a hit in Europe.

boaz47

SO are you saying that the Smart is too sub compact for the US? And the Mini is the bottom end of the sub compact market, size wise?

snakeweasel

I don't think the SMART has any more chance of being a "hit" in America than an Edsel would being a hit in Europe.

I would take a wait and see approach on that. With gas headed towards $4/gallon if that car can get 40+ MPG combined it just may have enough buyers to make a go of it.

robertsmx

I would say so. Smart seems to be too small to be reasonably practical, and not unlike the other end of the spectrum where vehicles tend to be ridiculously big.

As gasoline price finally catches up with the cost of milk (it has, cost of bottled water, finally), the market will evolve and decide the fate around size and fuel economy. For most part, it has been a non-issue forever, hence the carelessness. Change has been noticeable already over last 2-3 years.

Mr_Shiftright

A MINI gets 40 mpg and so does the Altima hybrid. 40 mpg is a bit lame for a car as small as a Smart, if you ask me. Besides, the car's been a flop everywhere...well, not a complete flop, but a slow seller and a red ink bleeder. SMART is on strict notice from corporate, either make money or you're dead.

Yeah, I think the MINI-size is as small as Americans care to go---at least in the mainstream. Of course, you will always find those 10,000 or so buyers who want the next new thing for a little while, but that can't sustain a US operation for very long.

MINI created a very deft formula that included performance, economy, good looks, tons of options, and a strong reliance on heritage.

Smart has none of the above. It's got diminutive size and so-so gas mileage. IMO, that's not enough tools in the toolbox to get the job done. There's nothing that stands out except size, which is really kind of a negative without other attributes.

Think of how the VW bug would have done in America if contemporary small Buicks got the same gas mileage and were built as well, and cost the same.

If you showed me a SMART micro-SUV turbo diesel getting 70 mpg and holding 4 people (even tightly), I'd change my tune in a minute.

bumpy

A MINI gets 40 mpg and so does the Altima hybrid. 40 mpg is a bit lame for a car as small as a Smart, if you ask me.

40 mpg combined?

MINI created a very deft formula that included performance, economy, good looks, tons of options, and a strong reliance on heritage.

Heritage? I don't see any sort of continuity between this:


and this:


except the name. Painting a Union Jack on the roof doesn't change that.

thegraduate

Heritage? I don't see any sort of continuity between this:

You don't? It's much the same shape, with the exception of the new front end which is needed to meet modern-day crash standards. Looks like much the same car, considering one is a good number of decades older than the other.

robertsmx

Yep, I do think the biggest problem with Smart is that it doesn’t compensate for size via fuel economy. But, to be fair, it doesn’t cost as much either, and won’t require the hassle of replacing battery pack (or impact from degradation over time) compared to Altima Hybrid. The biggest drawback is around its utility.

For a car to be acceptable, it needs to offer room for four and decent cargo space. A compromise on either will not help. For those reasons alone, I can see that I will be just as happy with a Civic as I would be with Accord. And Fit isn’t too far off the pace either. No wonder, the smallest Honda would compete with the largest Honda if I were looking to buy a car today.

IMO, the scale of practicality is similar to the scale of performance. A lot of folks want a car based on 10/10 performance potential. But they may never need more than 7/10th of the performance. Hence the idea of being able to balance wants with needs. The idea will gain momentum as more people are forced out of gas guzzlers.

Back in the 90s, people were buying big SUVs for either the bling factor following the bigger is better logic, or they were too scared of other things sharing the road. In this decade, many of those folks have chosen come down to earth, while others are still riding high but many of those spell chaos with every fill up.

robertsmx

Heritage? I don't see any sort of continuity between this

Everytime I look at my picture from 15 years ago, to now, I see more difference than I do between those two generations of Mini.

bumpy

This is closer to a modern interpretation of the old Mini than that BMW hatchback.

Mr_Shiftright

Well okay but to me the heritage is pretty obvious, and given the furious sales pace, I think most buyers do see it without too much prompting. The shape is basically identical, and it's still FWD. Even the big speedo in the center is a heritage tribute. And all the sales literature, websites, etc. are pumping the heritage themes like crazy. It's as much heritage as Mustang or Corvette at any rate.

The photo you posted isn't much like a MINI--it's a Fiat 600 heritage design. To rounded for a MINI, wrong front, wrong roofline IMO.



No, the 40 MPG is not overall. That's hwy. City driving would be about 34 mpg. However, it does require premium fuel.

Part of the Smart's problem is that, to my eye, the car is extremely unattractive. I see it as a turn-off, and an obstacle to the car's success.

thegraduate

This little Italian car doesn't look nearly as much like a Mini Cooper than does a MINI to my little eyes.