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Comments
The truck only has 52,000 miles.
Any ideas?
*Low fluid level
* Fluid level too high
*Defective or clogged transmission cooler return filter; clogged cooler or transmission cooling lines;low hydraulic pressure.
NOTE: Some Cooler Return Filters were defective for a period of time. Symptoms generally manifest themselves as slow initial gear engagement from park, or over engine revving (flair) on shifts.
*Defective Throttle Position Sensor.
Regards,
Dusty
Yours is a very common misconception... the xmission is NOT the issue at all. Instead, the sound you hear is the belt-driven fan. Under some ambient tempartures, the silicone-clutch on the fan will make the fan "roar" for 2-5 minutes when you first start a cold engine. After awhile, the silicone will 'loosen up' and allow the fan to freewheel as it is suppsed to. The "roar" goes away at that point.
Even my MANUAL xmission 4.7L semi-hemi will make that "roaring" sound under the right conditions... I KNOW that my xmission is not the problem.
This "roar" sound is a VERY common complaint especially after a summer of not hearing it and the mornings start to be about 40F. (40F is the temp where the "roar" seems to happen the most.)
Try this, the next time you start the engine cold, gently rev the engine.... you will hear that "roaring" sound even when the xmssion is in Park. This proves the "roaring" is not the xmission at all.
Another way you can tell it is not the xmission is to look at your Tachometer... it will not show you any unusually high RPMs when the "roaring" is happening.
After re-reading the original post, I have to conclude that your diagnosis is probably correct. Unfortunately, I was reacting to the poster's conclusion, and not the symptom. I should've known. I haven't seen a bad 545RFE yet!
How are the temps up there? Last week I had a 2 degree reading on my thermometer at about 5:00 AM one morning. Coldest day so far. How about you?
Bests,
Dusty
I have a 2001 Dakota Quad Cab w/202k miles on it. When traveling down the thruway the RPM's surg from the normal 2000 up to approx. 24-27000 and then settle back into the normal range. This seems to occur more often when the road is bumpy (I know how silly that sounds, I typed it), and less often when I am going up an incline. At it's worse, this occurs every 20-30 seconds, then it won't happen for 1/2 an hour.
I bought the truck new, and have always let Dorshel work on it and do what they recommend, up until 2 years ago. Then I went to work 40 miles East and have had it serviced by a local garage when it acted up (brakes, inspections,ect). I have had NO tranny problems, the fluid is not burnt smelling and is in the normal range, and even still has that red color to it. I travel 30,000+ miles /year, mostly highway, and would really like to get another year or two out of this w/o a major expense.
Any suggestions as to what might be wrong?? I have been told by several folks to bring it someplace now, before it breaks, or it will be much more expensive....but these same people say it could run as is for another 20-25,000 miles. Is there a reasonable service I could get done that would buy me some time??
TIA
Jim
My 2000 Dak with 4.7L semi-hemi still starts at those temps USING THE ORIGINAL BATTERY which was installed in September 1999. (That is when I bought by Dak. freshly orderd from the factory.)
Have you ever serviced the transmission?
Are you in the Rochester, New York area?
Regards,
Dusty
It sounds like you've discovered the item Chrysler refers to as the Throttle Valve, or sometimes the Throttle Position Valve used on A, RE, RH, and T-series transmissions. RFE series do not have this valve. The internal Throttle Valve is moved by a lever on the outside of the transmission case. The Throttle Valve controls shift speed, shift quality, part-throttle shift sensitivity, and is highly critical to transmission operation. If the transmission throttle valve is not working correctly or is out of adjustment, early shifts, long (delayed) shifts, no shift (usually 2-3 or 3-4), flair (slippage between shifts), or over sensitive downshifts may occur.
The transmission throttle valve basically controls hydraulic pressure to the Kickdown Valve, Regulator Valve, and the 1-2 and 2-3 Shift Control Valves in the transmission valve body. Transmission Throttle Valve operation is controlled by the position of the Throttle linkage at the engine Throttlebody via a cable. The adjustment is made at the engine end of the cable.
Unfortunately for Mopar owners, irratic operation of this particular part in the transmission is probably responsible for 20-40% of unnecessary rebuilds on Mopar trannies. Sometimes the the lever shaft that goes through the transmission case to operate the internal throttle valve becomes sticky or gets bound. Older transmissions had a small return spring mounted to this lever and a bracket on the side of the transmission case. I've seen these springs missing completely because they broke from fatigue or rusted.
The cable that operates the transmission throttle valve sometimes gets kinked or damaged, but more often gets moisture inside of it that causes it to rust, or stick in cold weather. If a Mopar tranny starts to develop trouble on cold occasions, this is a very likely suspect. Problems with the linkage at the throttlebody is often a problem, too. Throttle linkage should be solvent clean, completely dry and never lubricated.
It sounds like you have found a common cause to a common symptom. However, I would still recommend that this transmission get some maintenance once you get this fixed. At that mileage, I'd check the band adjustment as well. Also, I'm sure you know, but you should only use ATF+3 or ATF+4. Never use Dexron-Mercon, even with an auxiliary friction modifier!!!!
Good luck,
Dusty
If so, there's still a lot of grud in the system because the remaining ATF is contaminated. I would recommend a complete system flush, or at least do a repeat of filter change every few thousand miles for at least three times, more if you have the patience. At that mileage the old fluid is probably oxidized and contains a lot of moisture, besides solid particles.
If the silty stuff you saw was gray in color, that's friction material that has worn off the clutches. It is normal to see an amount of this material when a pan is removed. However, it sounds like you transmission had quite a bit, probably because the fluid had never been changed and the fluid had degraded friction modifier component. Usually when trannies get this dirty it clogs the valve body and causes all kinds of other problems. This is definitely not a candidate for a force flush.
Hard to say what the prognosis is. Keep us posted.
Best regards,
Dusty
ATF+3 contains detergents that will scrub out material, and a suspension catalyst that will hold and carry the unwanted material out when drained or flushed. ATF+4 actually has an improved detergent and catalyst package that does an even better job. The detergents in ATF+ will act upon dirt much more slowly than a force flush and prevent huge amounts of material from flooding the system all at once.
Unfortunately, this means that dirt in an elevated dirt environment will be present for a much longer duration, requiring more frequent and shortened filter and fluid change intervals. The best way to avoid problems is regular, scheduled maintenance. Despite a reputation that is not correctly deserved, I've seen hundreds of Mopar trannies 150,000 miles and more without repair or rebuild that had routine maintenance. And by the way, this goes for other makers transmissions, too. The majority of transmissions that develop a problem or fail are due to lack of maintenance.
As far as engine performance, submit another post in the engine or other area and we can comment there.
Best regards,
Dusty
It is usually easy to see if your engine has this issue by looking down thru the throttlebody into the intake plenum. (use a flashlight) If you see oil "puddles" in that area... you have the problem described above by (extremustang).
Unfortunately, the labor to replace the $8 gasket is over $600 because the entire top of the engine must be dismantled.
Rebuilding a 46RH or 46RE is not a big deal. If you properly maintain an automatic you shouldn't have problems with it, even at high mileage.
Regards,
Dusty
Your hearing five events because there are five events in a normal shift sequence. Dodge truck transmissions of that vintage (either 42RH/RE or 46RH/RE) are four speed automatics. The fifth event you are hearing is the torque converter locking. At very light acceleration the torque converter should lock around 42 MPH.
Unfortunately, I fear that your filter and fluid change came too late. While it appears to have fixed the shifting problem going forward, you might have a worn Direct Clutch, a bad Overdrive Thrust Bearing, or a broken Direct Clutch Spring.
A loose Rear Band will cause slipping, but they generally don't make any weird noises.
Can you describe what kind of debris you found in the pan when you changed the filter? How many miles on the vehicle? What engine?
Regards,
Dusty
1) It was over $800 added cost.
2) It *requires* frequent PM (Preventive Maintenance) such as fluid-changes and filter changes.
3) Significantly more complexatly and risk of failures.
4) Lower MPG.
Before ordering my Dak, I also went down to the service-area and asked about the COST of the frequent automatic xmission PMs. It became obvious to me that ordering the automatic xmission was not cost-effective over the life of the vehicle.
Instead, I opted for the manual xmission which was zero added cost the the purchase-price. Over 95Kmiles, I have changed the fluid ONE TIME... and that was solely to 'upgrade' to RedLine synthetic which made the xmission shift like butter and never need another lube-change again.
BOTTOM LINE: Unless you have some kind of physical impediment which keeps you from using a clutch.... a manual xmission is a MUCH better choice.
The Manual xmission coupled with track-loc rear end, 4X4 and Semi-hemi V8 makes for a MEAN truck. I like the fact that I can "light up" both rear tires with my big toe. :shades:
Could this a simple TPS issue or could this be a more serious mechanical issue, such as a torque converter or solenoid. Also, when the vehicle is started in cold weather (less than 30 degrees), it won't shift into OD until the engine is warm. Don't know if the two issues are related or not. The fluid is full and clean, with no "burnt" smell.
Another advantage of having a good rebuilder recondition your existing transmission, is you can do a number of upgrades to enhance durability and long term reliability. Dodge truck trannies are easy to work on and upgrade to stronger planetary gear sets that use more pinions, more and stronger clutch and steel sets, and even high performance valve body revisions, among other enhancements. These are very easy to upgrade this way. You can go as far as making a 46RE equivalent to a 48RE in terms of strength and durability if you want to.
Regards,
Dusty
Have you replaced the battery recently? If this is the original battery it may be causing intermittent loss of PCM or TCM memory keep alive. You might need to reflash the PCM. In fact, since your 2001 was manufacturered, there have a few transmission flash updates issued.
An open IOD fuse in the fuse panel (on the instrument panel) will cause irratic shifting problems.
And, yes, a defective Throttle Position Sensor can and will cause irratic shifting issues as well. In fact, this is a fairly common problem on older Daks.
Lastly, if you haven't done so yet, I would recommend that the transmission filters be changed. A partially clogged Cooler Return Filter may cause pressure loss after being driven for a while.
Regards,
Dusty
thanks
bigcfi
The battery was replaced (2) years ago, so that should be fine. However, it is due for a tranmission fluid change so that may be a good place to start.
With respect to the IOD fuse, I don't see one labeled as such.
When I checked with Autozone, they said a defective TPS would only affect the idle and would not affect the transmission in any way. However, this is contrary to what you and many others have said, so I will give that a try.
Thank-you for the input.
Regards
The IOD fuse probably isn't labeled. It isn't on my 2003, either. It is a ten ampere fuse, usually, and on later Daks it's found in cavity 18. But check all of the fuses just to be sure.
A defective TPS can most certainly cause irratic shifts on Mopars. The person at AutoZone obviously does not know how things work.
Good Luck and best regards,
Dusty
If I read your message correctly, you are contemplating replacing the transmission in your 3.9 Dakota (a 42RR or RH) with one from a 318 equiped truck. The V8 is either a A518, 44RE/RH or a 46RE/RH. I know it will bolt up, but I'm not sure about the transmission length. I advise taking a length measurement before you yank the tranny out of your truck.
Regards,
Dusty
also the dip stick is marked use dextron II on it ,,i know i should use mopar 4 fluid right?? but did they originally use dextron 2 in these years??
i looked at the throttle cable today and it appeared to be a couple mm out of alignment ,,also when i first checked the movement of both throttle and cable it appeared the lever on the tranny was hanging up at first mabey at 1/3 of the travel ,,after i readjusted the cable i tried it again and it didn't seem to stick anymore but still seems sluggish between 2-3 shifts unless i let of the throttle ,,the spring is in place and seems ok ,,it will manually shift 1-2-and 3 with 3 being the most sluggish,,i have changed the filter twice now and there was sludge in the pans both times but no major chunks or peices,,tommorow i'll check the tps for voltage and let ya know what i find ,,thanks for your ideas ,,i really don't want to rip this one out if it could be solved with the trans in ,,\thanks again
bigcfi
you mentioned there may be a lenght issue in changing the 6 tranny with the 5.2 ..i measured both ... the 5.2 i can say definatly is 32"L while the one still in the truck as best i can tell is 32+1/2"L but thats an estimate and kinda tuff to get exact measurements,,the 5.2 tranny part number is PK52118311-1742-2666 and i beleive thats a 46RH part number ,,the tork converter has a sticker on it marked high stall and i've been told to do the change over i need to use my 6cyl flexplate,,correct?,,thanks in advance
bigcfi
you mentioned there may be a lenght issue in changing the 6 tranny with the 5.2 ..i measured both ... the 5.2 i can say definatly is 32"L while the one still in the truck as best i can tell is 32+1/2"L but thats an estimate and kinda tuff to get exact measurements,,the 5.2 tranny part number is PK52118311-1742-2666 and i beleive thats a 46RH part number ,,the tork converter has a sticker on it marked high stall and i've been told to do the change over i need to use my 6cyl flexplate,,correct?,, also i checked the codes stored in the computer,,i had 5 codes but never had the check engine light come on,,the codes were 12,,32,,24,,15,,17,,i cleared them and drove it to see if they came back and the only 2 that came back were 12 and 32 and the slipping seemd to stop but seems to have less power and i think that could be comming from the egr code ,,will replace that before i continue with the tranny issues ,, are the tps check readings ok and within limits?
thanks in advance
bigcfi
Thank-you for the updates as they are most helpful!!!
I found the IOD fuse and it is good, so I will start will changing the TPS then get a trans fluid changed / flushed and get a new trans filter.
One question on the TPS, do you need to reset the PCM and if so, can this be done by disconnecting the battery for a short time or is there more involved. Thanks!
You will lose all Priority 0 through 4 DTC stored faults and learned shift schedule. However, all Chrysler automatic transmissions are at least semi-adaptive (all RFE versions are fully adaptive) and after some drive time will relearn.
Best regards,
Dusty
In the meantime, have you performed any transmission maintenance on this vehicle in the past?
Best regards,
Dusty
With the exception of the Aisin-Warner Jeep tranny, never use Dexron in a Mopar truck transmission. Never. Yes, Chrysler stamped the use of Dexron on to dipsticks for a number of years, and I can tell you they are real sorry now. They did this to indicate that Dexron could be used in very small quanity to bring the transmission fluid level to specification, however this was not approved in their service manuals. But, many people thought this implied that Dexron was approved for use, and it wasn't, especially in quanties more than one quart. As we know now, one quart of Dexron added to ATF+3 will cause accelerated degradation of the fluid.
If thje Throttle Valve pivot on the transmission is still sluggish, you may need to replace the shaft. I've seen these get corroded on older transmissions, especially those that had a high moisture content in the fluid (another reason to change fluid regulary!).
It sounds like you were reading TPS voltage with a digital meter. The voltages are within range, but you cannot determine a rough spot on the potentiometer wiper (resistive) surface with a digital meter. Here's where an old fashioned analog VOM will do a better job. However, I gave up on checking this after I found that I thought one was good after test, but it proved to be bad anyway. Because of the age and vintage, I would suggest just replacing it. They had a higher rate of defects in those years.
I'm not into tranny swaps, so I do not consider myself qualified to comment on the flex plate issue. However, I'm pretty sure the flex plates are different between a 42 and 46RH.
I think I answered all of your questions.
Good luck and best regards,
Dusty
I got the truck with 70000 miles on it and I changed the fluid/filters at 105000. I just went and checked the code its reading P0700. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Nate
P0700 = Transmission Control System Malfunction
Unfortunately the P0700 code doesn't tell us much, but I have a suggestion on a couple of things to try before going to a dealer and having a DRB3 connected to it.
1. Check all of the electrical connections at the transmission. Disconnect each connector and check for any signs of corrosion, moisture, or damaged pins. Check for damaged wiring. Perform the same checks at the Power Train Control Module (PCM) and Transmission Control Module (TCM). The TCM is part of the PCM and is mounted to the inside of the right fender.
2. Replace the Throttle Position Sensor (TPS).
3. Disconnect the battery for several minutes. This will erase the stored learned shift algorithm. Drive the vehicle and let the transmission relearn.
If these recommendations don't work, I suggest having a Dodge tech. check this out. You might need a TCM reflash. A defective shift solenoid or dirty valve body could cause this problem, as well as a bad coolant temperature or transmission temperature sensor, or for that matter, a bad PCM/TCM.
Best regards,
Dusty
i've got a 2000 slt dakota 4.7 ltr 4x4 quad trans revs between shifts and seems to slip
slow to go into drive but reverses right away also on highway seems to buck a little and if i throttle to pass its revs again
fluid seems good no burnt smell nice red colour
already replaced tps any help would be greatly appreciated
thanks mike
After checking all the wiring and replacing the TPS Im still having the problem. So today I took it into a respectable dealership to have it looked at. They checked it out with a DBR and informed me that I needed a rebulid ($4300). I have a hard time beleiving this and thought maybe you could either assure me that I need a rebuild or give me more ideas to the problem.
I have some results from the DBR test I thought this could be helpful info. Not completely sure what all of it means. But this is why they said I need a rebuild.
CVI: LR=93 2C=56 OD=55 UD=48 4C=0 (THIS 4C IS WHY THEY SAID I NEED A REBUILD THEY THOUGHT THAT SOMETHING WAS BROKE OFF IN THE TRAN.)
Also, since the last time I posted a message I've learned that the transmission is fine after it warms up.
Thank You,
Nate
I would first replace the transmission filters, both the Primary Transmission Filter and the Cooler Return filter. The Cooler Return Filter looks like a very small spin-on engine oil filter. Chrysler became extremely sensitive to debris management with the RFE transmission series. It incorporates an exceptionally fine filter media that traps debris down to 6 micron. Unfortunately, this is a high efficiency filter with a relatively low capacity and it can clog easily if there is a lot of debris in the fluid.
Also, if its ever been replaced, there were some Cooler Return Filters that were bad for a while.
If this does not solve the problem, try disconnecting the battery for two minutes and go through a relearn. If that doesn't work, have a Dodge technician put a DRB3 diagnostic tool on it. You may have lost the shift algorithm or need a flash update.
Regards,
Dusty
I'm sorry I'm getting this on Sunday. Let me get back to you.
Regards,
Dusty
There was a loose accumulator plate problem on some early versions, which would cause the plate to eventually bend, I've heard of a couple of marginal sensors, and yes, the Cooler Return Filter can get clogged very quickly on these trannies. But all these problems can be resolved on the vehicle.
Regards,
Dusty
Based on your numbers there is something definitely wrong. The Low Reverse clutch pressure is too high, the 2C clutch and Overdrive clutch pressures seem within range. I consulted with a Dodge tranny tech and he thinks the Underdrive clutch pressure is too low.
The 4C clutch pressure doesn't make any sense since you say that after being warmed up it drives okay. Basically at zero it's telling you that the 4C clutch requires absolutely no pressure to apply which doesn't make sense if it drives. This could be an erroneous reading I suppose.
The rebuilding quote seems unreasonably high. Heck, you could probably buy a brand new complete transmission across the parts counter for nearly that price. Unless this transmission's been abused, I would suspect that most of the hard components are still good (panetaries, shafts, etc.). You might need clutches or maybe a valve body, but that would be just speculation. You really don't know until you pull it apart.
You know, it might pay to get a second opinion.
Regards,
Dusty
Thanks for all the info. I think the first thing I'll do is get a second opinion.
I might try changing a few sensors just to make myself feel better about a rebuild. I guess it just doesn't seem right that its fine after it warms up.
I'll be sure to keep you updated to the problem.
Thanks again,
Nate
The 545RFE has been out better than eight years and in that time I've heard of one major failure, and that was a broken sun gear on a 2000 Cherokee. I asked my Dodge guy the other day and another transmission tech. yesterday if they've seen any 545RFEs apart. I figured that after eight years you'd start seeing a few. Neither have had an opportunity to do a rebuild, in fact both said they've never removed one from a vehicle. Anything that's gone wrong was correctable either with a reflash or pulling the pan.
I've heard of two sensor failures on a 545RFE, both on the net. As mentioned before, there was a bent accumulator plate issue, but that was assembly related and fixed a long time ago. The guys I've talked to seem to think most problems are fluid related as each said the most they taken apart were valve bodies.
I did think about your symptom and the goofy no pressure on the 4C clutch. I don't know if this is possible with this design, but maybe the 4C clutch is hung up. I can't think of another reason to get a zero pressure reading other than the reading is false, or you have a bad computer. I'd be tempted to erase the PCM and reflash the computer just to see what the effect would be..
By all means, let us know what the end result is.
Best regards,
Dusty
On to the problem. When the temperature is less than 40 degrees outside the truck will not shift into overdrive or use lockup from what I can tell. I have a 15 mile commute so there is plenty of time to get the truck fully warmed up. The trans shifts perfectly otherwise. You can feel all of the gears engaging and lockup when the temperature is warmer.
I have read through all 56 pages looking for a similar problem but have found none. Hopefully somebody here can head me in the right direction to cure this problem. Thanks.
Have you tried replacing the Throttle Position Sensor? Have you checked the Throttle Valve Cable adjustment?
Regards,
Dusty