Is Cadillac's Image Dying and Does Anyone Care?

rockylee

I posted a article earlier saying the SRX is still highly desired and sales are strong after Cadillac, reworked the interior.

Rocky

rockylee

Every Lexus model except perhaps the ES 330 is built in Japan to the best of my knowledge. I know some of you are so brain washed that you even think Lexus cars are all american. :confuse:

Rocky

british_rover

Most modern cars are supposed to have a little bit of orange peel on them. It is something to do with how modern paints dry and I think also enviromental issues with hazardous material in the paint. The key is you want the orange peel to be consistant across the car.

So saying a modern car does not have orangepeel is just incorrect. They all do, except for some truly high priced exotics, but some will have a less noticiable and more even orange peel effect.

rockylee

What's all this orange peel talk. I guess I'm lost on this subject. :surprise:

Rocky

Kirstie_H

1. A spelling/grammar lesson discussion.
2. A court of law.

We're just discussing here, not trying to prove/disprove the theory of evolution, and no one will go to The Hague if they're not perfect or fail to present sources as proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Let's stick to Cadillac and cease talking about each other altogether.

merc1

WHAT?

M

imidazol97

In summary, the discussion said that Cadillac isn't finished as well as the Lexi and that included the paint.

However my question was if the paint on the Lexi is "perfectly smooth" is it because the car is built in Japan and painted there. The rest of my question is about the kinds of paint they're allowed to use there! Perhaps that's the reason for the ability to get a finish that appears smoother, although BR says there is orange peel effect in all paints. I know the US manufacturers have had to adapt to the (extreme) paint requirements of EPA.

chevy598

Isn't Lexus building some cars in Canada now? Used to build 100% at one plant in Japan. I thought they started building some at a Canada plant about 1 1/2 years ago. I could be wrong.
You can still smell an assembly plants paint shop a mile or two away.

british_rover

Did a little more research on the orange peel business and so far the only thing I can find is that accelerants used to cut down the dry time of mass produced factory paints cause orange peel.

The trick is to minimize the orange peel and keep it even over the vehicle.

Mercedes does a good job of this. Even on their black cars you can barely see the orange peel and it is even accross the body of the vehicle. Even across curved panel gaps the orange peel effect is even. Trying to do a factory match of Mercedes black paint after a accident repair is very, very hard. It is easy to spot a wrecked mercedes that did not have a repair done well as the orange peel won't match up.

YOu can spot it from 30 or 40 feet away sometimes.

Audi tends to not do such a good job of orange peel on their cars.

snakeweasel

No. Come with me to an auto show sometime,

No I rather not do so at an auto show where every car has been mishandled by everyone and their brother, I have done so at dealerships and see the very little, if any, difference between the two.

fintail

Indeed...if there is one thing that MB does well, it is paint. All of my cars have had fantastic paint jobs....even when they age, they can easily be brought back to a new condition, and still turn heads even at a high mileage and age.

grbeck

Auto show patrons are not knocking panels out of alignment or affecting how paint is applied. They will not have an effect on the basic construction quality of a vehicle.

And I've seen the difference in construction quality and materials quality between the these two marques; it is readily apparent. It is also apparent to virtually every tester, judging by reviews of various vehicles in publications ranging from Car & Driver to USA Today to Consumer Reports to Automobile.

dhamilton

The quality difference is there. You have to have sat in enough cars to notice. I'll go one step further and say Audi has the highest quality of interior materials.

plekto

Except for their loopy concept of what constitutes a cupholder.

merc1

I still don't get what you said earlier about all makers purposely going for some degree of orange peel in their paints? That doesn't sound right. If anything they strive to eliminate it.

M

snakeweasel

No but all of that does take its toll on the looks of a car. Again lets look at some at the dealership that haven't been mangled. I have seen what those auto show cars go through.

Lets go and actually look at the cars not what others may or may not say.

FWIW if CR tells me the sky was blue I would check just to make sure. I go by the saying "if CR says it it must not be true".

rockylee

snake,

I'm just glad you and I can agree on something else again.

Rocky

british_rover

The constraints of modern factory speeds force them to have some orange peel in paint because of the accelerants used to dry the paint faster and keep the line moving.

Since you are always going to get a little bit of orange peel the goal is to keep it even accross the car.

You can actually tell what cars are made in higher quantities just by looking at the paint. Just for example there is a nearly 90,000 dollar Range Rover just outside my office. It has very very good paint the orange peel is there but it is so even and so light you can't see it till you get your eye right up next to it.

About 70 Range Rovers a day are made off the line.

Compare the Range Rover to the LR3 right next to it and you can instantly tell the paint is of lower quality and was applied faster. YOu can see see the peel from 10 or so feet away and it is a little larger in ripple.

I think the LR3/Disco 3 line makes about 200 or so vehicles a day.

imidazol97

>You can still smell an assembly plants paint shop

And that's related to my point. The EPA requirements changed the paint methods and materials and probably degraded the quality. But in some other countries the requirements are not as stiff (if any) and the paint types and methods can be optimum for quality output at the price level for the vehicle.

I can drive by the Moraine GM plant and I don't smell any, repeat any, paint ever. I toured the plant before the more recent addition (at taxpayers' loss) after the plant first opened and they had gone to different paints already-I can't recall if they were water-based.

I recall when my silver 89 Century had a few paint spots loosen and the dealer (bless his heart) repainted it at company cost telling me that the problem was the different types of paint used and the shortcut the paint company had said worked... that didn't work... of using only two coats, a base and a final without a binder coat in the middle.

lemko

The paint on my 1988 Buick Park Avenue is abominable. I don't know what they did back then, but it's faded in spots all over the top portions of the car, (hood, roof, deck). It once was a beautiful medium-dark blue metallic. It's a shame the paint's so awful because the remainder of the car is awesome. I'm always tempted to get the car repainted regardless of how fiscally stupid it would be.

rockylee

you could always take her to Maaco and get ya a $300 dollar job.

Rocky

lemko

Yeah, it'll look even worse than it already does. I've seen those $300 Maaco jobs. An orange has less peel. You might as well paint the car with Sears Weatherbeater and a broom.

rockylee

You might as well paint the car with Sears Weatherbeater and a broom.

OMG, that is the funniest thing I've heard in a while

ROTFLMAO

Rocky

imidazol97

Maybe you can find a painter who does his own work on the side at night and off the books who does a top quality job.

snakeweasel

You might as well paint the car with Sears Weatherbeater and a broom.

Don't laugh, I have a nephew that re did a honda and painted it a flat black using a brush. Oh the thing looks awful. :sick:

plekto

You might as well paint the car with Sears Weatherbeater and a broom.

OMG, that is the funniest thing I've heard in a while

Actually, I know one guy in college who did this Well, he used a coarse paintbrush - but you could see the brushmarks twenty feet away.

rockylee

snake and you have some funny story's. I'd rather let her rust than do something like that and I only thought the guys at work who have rhino lined there older trucks were goofy.

Rocky

readerreader

People have gotten off the topic a bit.
This is why Cadillac will be able to stand head and shoulders above the competition:

















There is a style and flair there that cannot be denied.
And all that is not just "future" either.




^^^Base model!!!





Yes!! Yes!! Absolutely yes!!!

So, you get the drift.
Those are far and away the best-in-class interiors.

Mr_Shiftright

I don't think Cadillac could ever regain its former pre-eminence of the 1930s-50s because the whole idea of a "Standard of the World" is mostly mythological.

Cadillac's former reputation is so far in the distant past that we might forget what a "mythology" about a car really is anymore.

But for example, the myths about the Rolls Royce---that the engine compartment was sealed and could only be opened by a factory technician (not true, never true), or that if your Rolls broke down, RR would fly a technician in to fix it, and not even charge you for it (totally not true---LOL!).

There was a time that only the very well to do could even OWN a Cadillac. There was no credit per se in the 30s, and no leasing. To own such a car was an aspiration that took years of hard work to attain---and once attained, others looking at it would realize how long and hard the road to get it.

But nowadays, I could leave my computer, go to a Cadillac dealership and lease a new Cadillac with nothing in my pocket but a credit car.

So....if even Cadillac could somehow surpass Mercedes and Lexus in reputation (doubtful, but you never know), it still could never be a "Standard of the World"---such lofty heights no longer exist for 99% of cars.

Maybe a McClaren F1 or a Ferrari Enzo could approximate a "standard of the world" for performance cars, but for luxury cars, there are just too many players and they are all too good for anyone to dominate by a large margin IMO.

fintail

Compared to the current CTS, that is pretty excellent. Less edgy, more homogenous, and the materials look 1000x better.

The grille is a big big/ostentatious for me, but it seems like a Caddy version of the big mouth bass Audi, so it's not a damning feature.

I like rear bucket seats like in that photo.

rockylee

OMG..........I will without a doubt buy a 2008 Cadillac CTS after seeing those interior pics. WOW !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!- !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:shades:

Rocky

readerreader

That's not the interior of the 2008 CTS. That's the interior of the Cadillac SLS, which may make itself over here as the 2008 STS.

The 2008 CTS interior looks something like this:



That's a test mule. I have been hearing all over that in real life, it is out of this world!
So keep your hopes up!

rockylee

Okay....cool.... The SLS interior which like you say could make it over here as a 08' STS is very very impressive. :shades:

The 2008' CTS interior also is very very impressive. :shades:

Rocky

readerreader

It is.
I'm surprised so few people post any pictures at all on these forums.

Why is that so?

There are very, very few pictures here.

Many people seem unable to identify cars too...

rockylee

Most of the pics are at the mystery pix forum. I suppose you can change how we do business here by continuing to show us your latest pics.

Rocky

readerreader

Never heard of that forum. Interesting...

rockylee

It's actually "mystery car pix"

Rocky

Mr_Shiftright

here you go (link)

Edmunds' Mystery Car Topic

chevy598

Why is everybody saying Cadillac can't do it?
Look at that car!!! It may not be as "refined", but thats an opinion not a fact. The car looks nice on the inside, and it has that Cadillac "bling" on the outside.
Some people will love the exterior, and some people will hate the exterior. That's what Cadillac wants. Cadillac's not going to get anywhere building a car that looks like a Lexus.

rockylee

That is true. I'm just hoping the car looks as good in person as it does in the photo's. What I'd like to see on the 08' CTS is a Delphi Magneride adjustable suspension, A powerful 1000 watt 7.1 Blue Ray compatible CD player, ventilated seats, and a multi-functional voice recognition system w/ Navigation. :shades: Of course I'd also like to see side and rear sunshades like those found on the 2007' Volvo S80 to further make me very happy.

Rocky

snakeweasel

Cadillac's not going to get anywhere building a car that looks like a Lexus.

And if they tried no one would like it.

dhamilton

looks like Lexus........The inside of that car looks like a big rip off of Lexus - the quality

rockylee

Well I'd rather it rip off Lexus, than be like Kia. :P

Rocky

rockylee

http://www.cadillac.com/cadillacjsp/model/gallery.jsp?model=srx&year=2007&primar- y=4&secondary=3

It looks good.

Rocky

readerreader

dhamilton,

1. The inside of which car? I have posted pictures of three different cars altogether--one being an SUV/crossover actually.

2. How can you "rip off" "quality"?

Thanks to Mr. Shiftright and rockylee for the "Mystery Thread" link. It looks interesting.

dhamilton

The first two interior pics look like a Lexus. You can rip off design, which is what those first 2 interior pics show.

It's no big deal, Cadillac needs to do whatever it can to pick up it's pants and move on. If they have to rip off some design cues, so be it. The Chinese do it all the time, no big deal.

pch101

Cadillac needs to do whatever it can to pick up it's pants and move on. If they have to rip off some design cues, so be it.

That's right. Nobody can fault a company for emulating good design.

I'm still wondering what Cadillac is going to do in order to distinguish itself from its rivals in the US market. (I realize that in China, providing a cushy ride and gadgets for the passengers is the priority -- these are meant to be passengers' cars, not necessarily drivers' cars.)

I still don't frankly know why we're supposed to prefer a Cadillac to something else. If its goal is to try to emulate Lexus, then why wouldn't we just make the safe choice and buy a Lexus?

Mr_Shiftright

Well good point. It's so difficult to really "leapfrog" the competition like you could in the old days....I mean like a '55 Chevy just beat the stuffings out of the competition, an Jaguar XKE was like a revelation from the future, and, in its own way, the 1990 Lexus was as good as a Benz for a lot less money (back then anyway). In other words, the new model was DRAMATIC in its superiority and, if not that, at least in its VALUE (e.g., the Miata or the Corvette).

So...dramatic new looks, tempting value, or superior technology---that's how you stand out from the crowd.

Then of course you need superior customer service (uh-oh, not a strong point for GM)

And...let's see...other things to stand out from the crowd?....great resale value is a crowd pleaser, and reputation for longterm durability---the old "you just can't kill 'em---also not a GM strong suit anymore (used to be, though).

So any car that's not currently on "top" has a long climb--mostly because the competition is so darn good.

lemko

Shoot! The first two pics look better than a Lexus! I sure hope the new Cadillac production interiors will look as nice!

pch101

dramatic new looks, tempting value, or superior technology---that's how you stand out from the crowd.

Then of course you need superior customer service (uh-oh, not a strong point for GM)

And...let's see...other things to stand out from the crowd?....great resale value is a crowd pleaser, and reputation for longterm durability---the old "you just can't kill 'em---also not a GM strong suit anymore (used to be, though).

That really is part of the problem. These days, "quality" can be had on many levels, even in relatively cheap cars.

It's not enough to just be reliable. (And some luxury brands can get away without being particularly reliable, although I wouldn't put GM products in that category -- they have burned enough people that now they have something to prove.)

They are going to have succeed by being different and unique, not through duplication. The problem with creating copies is that most people favor the original, and a low price is about the only way for the copy to go head-to-head with the original. That's OK if you're Hyundai, but competing on price is not great for a luxury brand.

As far as I can tell, what's needed is some sort of bold styling statement, combined with some sort of distinct quality that helps them to stand out, combined with superior service and customer coddling. Being "pretty good" isn't enough when you're trying to recover from a bad reputation and when the competition is so fierce.

With BMW dominating performance image, MB being the class leader, Lexus setting the build quality benchmark, and Audi defining the restrained interior, I frankly don't know what areas are left. Whatever they do, the brand needs to be unique, otherwise most people will choose the Europeans and Asian originals, and demand a discount for the US knockoff.