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Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?

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    captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    I can't help but think of a drive up in the snow country a few years back, snow packed roads and a bunch of primarily RWD sedans all stuck on the side of the roads because IT (the car) had decided it was too dangerous to drive. Courtesy of 'intelligent' safety systems that I guessa don't understand how unsafe it is to freeze to death.
    Actually have no problem at least with the concept, think like you do that a number of vehicle types (and driver types) need them - but wish in any case, that the silly things could be turned off - sometimes not even possible even when there is an 'off' switch. The Avalon does not have an 'off' switch and the whole VSC system can only be disabled by the most convoluted and ridiculous sequence of events, somthing that nobody in their right mind could do and certainly take the time to do.
    An 06 V6 Sonata I had on a long term rental, had a mildly intrusive SC system that could be shutoff (to Hyundai's credit this is the way they have chosen to implement it) and it made a difference of about 15mph of speed around a relatively tight traffic circle, simply by shutting down the throttle and applying (some) od the brakes for me. when the system was 'on'.
    Will admit though that the high speed circle was just me testing how invasive the system was and certainly at speeds well above anything 'normal.'
    Which then digresses into yet another area - the average driver these days has likely never driven anything other than a FWD car and perhaps even has never touched a MTX. And then we all want to say that RWD is an advantage - or even desirable? Not so sure, given the general incapabilities of today's drivers.
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    OK, time to fess up, since you brought it into the discussion... how much do the writers at Edmunds.com get paid by the automakers for a favorable review?

    Those guys hang out behind locked doors so little do I know. :shades:

    Karl does have a Ford GT in his garage.
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    bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    but do believe that any 'lux' pretensions are seriously wounded by sub $10k Accents.

    No. A full line of cars is a very good thing. Toyota has a full line, all the way from econoboxes to the excellent LS.

    Look at car makers that have a limited line of cars, and you'll notice they're ranked pretty low in sales.
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    bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    CR will not accept a dime from anybody with a vested interest in what they are doing and TMK never has.. Not like JDP
    Have to check out this 'True Delta', if it is what you say it is, it sure has got a crappy name

    CU does accept donations, and sometimes large endowments from companies whose products they test and rate. Bottom line, no person or organization is completely immune to money and influence.

    You seem have this thing about names, Captain. You should get to know Michael and True Delta, and I think you will change your mind. No,,, I take that back. Changing your mind would be a first. ;)
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    houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Those guys hang out behind locked doors

    Any chance for parole? :)

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    They have to protect their sources I guess. Sort of like printers who get the Best Buy ads three weeks before the sale starts? :confuse:
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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Oh!! That's why I see those folks camping outside my local BestBuy store, when the sale isn't for another 2-3 weeks. I always wondered about that.
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    It's funny how all that embargoed stuff now winds up on the shopping sites (FatWallet, etc.) these days. It's like spy photos - you have to wonder if half of the new cars spotted in Death Valley with some tape over a fender are really just cruising around as part of the marketing campaign.
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    captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    CU does accept donations, and sometimes large endowments from companies whose products they test and rate

    You wouldn't have anything to substantiate that, or do you? CR/CU publishes their financials as well as a listing of funding/donation sources EVERY YEAR which I believe are further limited in amount. So I'm from Missouri and please, please show me where CU has accepted any money from a GM, Toyota or the anybody with a vested interest like that and I will be happy to shut up about this. Don't believe your accusations for a minute.
    Agree though on the whole objectivity and money thing though. It is the only reason why I cite CR because otherwise I personally don't agree on half of what they 'value'!
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Ford Foundation Grants $5.3 Million for Devolution Initiative

    It's a $500k grant from the Ford Foundation to Consumer's Union for ACORN community organization kind of stuff. But the foundation is separate from FOMOCO, so I'm sure there's little good feeling generated toward Ford from their little grant. I'm sure the other $7,193,518.00 granted since '96 has had no impact either. ;) (link)

    I was burned by CR back in the 70's when I should have gone to an enthusiast store near me. I still refer to them, but they are never my sole source of info.
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    captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    nothing really to do with FoMoCo that I see and as you note - and if it did put CU beholden to Ford in any respect I'm also sure that they turn down the grant. A novel concept these days called intregrity, and not for sale at CU. Besides, CR has NOT been real kind to Ford (and other D3) products in recent years, guess the Ford foundation must have been 'paying' for crappy reviews of '96-'04 FoMoCo products by the sound of it :confuse: They sure got more than their share in that period, didn't they?
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Isuzu sued 'em and won (no money damages though) back in '96 for "numerous false statements." They must have had no foundation at all. :shades:

    Ah well, back to the topic, people are reporting seeing more Genesis's on the street over in I spotted a NEW (insert make/model) today!. I guess the exclusivity argument will be toast soon.
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    captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Isuzu sued 'em and won (no money damages though) back in '96 for "numerous false statements
    or given the sorry state of FoMoCo products thru 2004, CU could have gotten even more than the 7 mil had they given Ford products even worse reviews :confuse:
    If you can't hit em in the the pocketbook what's winning? Must've back in the days of the SUV rollover scare?
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    There are two sides to every story, but most of the stuff Isuzu wanted them to withdraw from publication wasn't. I forget the details, but CR never retracted any of their road test results, AFAIK.
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    dean3927dean3927 Member Posts: 80
    ********************************************************************************- ***

    http://www.nextautos.com/driven-2011-hyundai-equus-stops-by-for-a-visit
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    This will be their first foray into true luxury price territory. The current Genesis is really near-lux.

    Equus? Needs a name change, IMO.
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    lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Equus translates to the "Hyundai Horse." It kind of looks like a Lucerne on steroids. The rear quarter has the same contour as my girlfriend's LaCrosse.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Hmm, don't want people thinking of Pony cars, though.

    And Equus is too hard to pronounce.

    Is it eck-WUS, or EEK-woos, or what?
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    They could run ads of a naked actor(ess) poking the headlight lens out with a knife.

    Stupid Wiki link with the paren keeps dying - try this one if you don't know the story.
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    lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    There was a movie made of the play starring Richard Burton. No, neither he nor the other players were naked in the cinematic version! :P
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The target market may even get the reference!
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Maybe that's why I like live theatre but don't much like movies. ;)

    I'll pass on the Harry Potter star's version now playing.... Actually I begged off going to the play when the college put it on 20 years ago and my wife went with a good (male) friend of ours. I was bummed since the female lead was, ahem, bareback through most of the production.
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    british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    I got that reference unfortunately.
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    fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,208
    The hood ornament is hilarious, and the front end looks Chinese....and I don't mean that in a nice way. The greenhouse is, as I have said before, a supersized Azera.

    That being said, Lexus makes some equally blandiose designs...so it might sell a few examples. But, IMHO, it needs some renovations.

    I also question if the author of that article has ever actually driven an S-class, one made in this decade anyway.
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    carolinabobcarolinabob Member Posts: 576
    Are we talking about luxury cars or theater?
    I would expect the moderator at least to stay on topic.
    Thanks
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    bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    You need to lighten up Bob. Man can not live on cars alone.
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    lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    What do you make of the new E-Class? The current television commercial for it has me intrigued - not that I have any intentions of trading in the DTS already! :P
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Says the guy who ought to live exclusively in the "Azera Owners - Complaints" thread.
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    fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,208
    Well, the styling to me is "German Acura" and I am not won over by it ...but I have read many rave reviews of it in the Euro and domestic press about the build quality and driving characteristics of the car, supposed to be much better than W210/211. In October I will be in Germany and I have a W212 booked, so I will know for myself then.

    Prices also seem to be a good 5% lower than the 09 models, too. But that might be hard to keep up with as the dollar is really soft right now.

    Oops, I'm OT :P
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    carolinabobcarolinabob Member Posts: 576
    :P Furman University to you.
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    m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    Apart from looks, its actually a pretty good car. It aint for sale yet in US, but here where I'm at now it's already roaming the streets.
    Last week I had the chance to test the car for 1 day. Looks, instead of growing on me it turned me off even more the more I looked at it. Too much Toyota Crown Royal/Majesta mixed with MB S-class with bleak results, just google those models and compare them and you'll see what I mean.
    Interior, apart from the generic design: this is what a luxury Hyundai is supposed to be. Real wood and smooth leather all around, everything was easy to use save for one: the nav system was all in Korean and I couldnt figure out a darn word :cry: It's roomy borderline tankersize, but since the car was all black inside it felt smaller than it really is.
    Performancewise it's so much more a cruiser than the Genesis. Slow takeoff, builds speed smoothly and the ride was borderline floaty, whether it's a good thing or not depends on personal tastes. Sadly the term tankerlike also applies to the handling, but it's understandable since this car's normally meant to be chauffeur driven. Korean TownCar, anyone?
    Pricing, no clue. Since this car costs approx. $90k here after tax, it's deemed a good alternative to the more established names like Crown ($120k) or MB S350 (a cool $160k). How it'll fare in US is a mistery still, and I'll have to wait 2 years to go back to US and see what happens :P

    Note to Hyundai: fix the ridiculous face, please.
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    carolinabobcarolinabob Member Posts: 576
    See my response to bobad - same to you. If you two can figure it out. :P
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    carolinabobcarolinabob Member Posts: 576
    Consumer Reports, October issue, page 56. Guess what? They reviewed Camaro, Mustang, Challenger and Genesis Coupe. While none had a soft ride and as "Sporty Cars" they shouldn't, only the Genesis was singled out for poor ride. Read the second paragraph under handling, ride and drivetrain.
    Genesis came in 3rd to Mustang and Camaro and quite a bit ahead of Challenger.
    I am NOT anti-Hyundai, Azera, Genesis, Equus, etc. I just share the information which I come across that indicates that Hyundai needs to do a better job with their suspension and ride.
    If they can get suspension/ride corrected, the Azera and Genesis would be 10's. As I have stated many, many times before. :D
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    donna388donna388 Member Posts: 69
    :)

    It's truly a shame that so many posters cannot face up to the fact that there are indeed suspension problems with many Hyundias models, especially the Azera, the Genesis sedan, and now it appears the newest Genesis, the Coupe.

    Just last week, there was a comparison test on MotorWeek between the Camaro and the Genesis coupe. The Camaro coupe won because of its superior suspension when compared to the Genesis coupe, even though the Genesis was considerably quicker.

    Why is there such a disproportionate number of, in some cases, barely used Azeras available on the used car markets? When I say disproportionate, I mean in comparison to the total numbers originally sold over the four years that the Azeras have been available.

    If this is not so, why are slightly used Azeras available at such low asking prices when compared to other vehicles in their class? The market already knows about these vehicles and so does the general public, and that is why prices and especially trade-in values are so low. :sick:

    The poor sales of the current 2009 models reflect this bigtime. There were less than 400 units sold in May, the latest figures available. The truth is, there are now very few new Azeras sold because of their bad reputation.

    Many here who are in the know and must and still drive these cars, especially the Azeras, really understand what several of us are saying. The rest, who for some questionable reasons must keep up their false statements praising these different Hyundais for the most part do not even own one, and therefore really know not of what they speak!
    I simply wish that those same people would be forced to come drive ours and then, just perhaps, they would be forced to admit what some of us do know what we are talking about.

    Carry on, but please stop trying to 'put down' the messengers. We do know!

    :D
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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    It would be helpful to differentiate between suspension "problems" and suspensions that are too firm for the taste of the owner or reviewer. I have yet to read a review of the Genesis coupe, or sedan, that says the suspensions have a "problem." I have read some that note the suspensions are firmer than the reviewer would like. Are the suspensions on these cars failing, or breaking? Do they rattle or otherwise act other than they were designed?

    There is a difference between not liking how a suspension feels and the suspension having a problem. For example, in a recent review of the G37 coupe vs. the Genesis V6 coupe, the firm suspension was noted. It was also noted that the Genesis handled more crisply than the G37. And the reviewers also noted that even though the much more expensive G37 out-pointed the Genesis, their personal preference if they had to choose one to buy for themselves would be the Genesis, since it offered so much for such a reasonable price.

    In another recent review, the Genesis V6 coupe out-pointed the Camaro and Mustang except in one, subjective category: "gotta have it." The Genesis coupe, the first such car from Hyundai, must not be too bad if it can take on two pony car icons and beat them when looking at every measure of the vehicle itself.
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    ergsumergsum Member Posts: 146
    Along with what you said Backy, the model of Genesis Coupes used in the almost all the reviews and comparisons I have read were the Track model with the stiffer suspension set up (spring rates boosted 7 percent front and 18 percent rear), thicker stabilizer bars for front and rear, and larger 19-inch wheels with 40 series side profile tires.
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    m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    with Donna on this one. I admit I've never kept a Hyundai for any longer than a week, safe for a Kia Sephia I used to drive in college for a few years. However suspension problem's been Hyundai-Kia's problem for ages. That is, both in firmness and endurance.
    THis is by no means to say that all Hyundais are like that. The Genesis is an example of a change. Azera (sold under the name Grandeur here) and everything below that still have the same problem, and the ones sold here are using the "softer" suspension already, according to Hyundai itself.
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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Azera (sold under the name Grandeur here) and everything below that still have the same problem, ...

    I've never heard anyone, any review, say the suspension of the Accent or the Elantra is too firm. My personal experience with those cars is that both cars have a smooth ride for the size of the car. I've also not read of the Tucson, Santa Fe, Veracruz, or Entourage suspensions being too firm. And since you tossed Kia into this, I've also never read any review of the Kia Amanti, Optima, Forte, Rio, Sportage, Rondo, or Sedona that said the suspension was too firm. The only current Kia for which I've heard that mentioned is the Sorrento, which is a relatively old SUV design.

    You and everyone else is entitled to his opinion on the ride quality of the Genesis or Azera or any other car. But to lump most Hyundai/Kia vehicles into the "too firm" category is taking it way too far, IMO.
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    houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    I happened to see the motor week show you mentioned and my recollection is that they said they picked the Camaro even though the Genesis was faster and handled better because the Camaro had better brakes and because of "nostalgia". Go to the motor week web site and you can read the comparison for yourself.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

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    donna388donna388 Member Posts: 69
    :)

    "Play it again Sam." Listen for the details this time.

    Below is exactly what MotorWeek said.
    Quoting from MotorWeeks' show #2846:

    "But, as to ride quality, our GT felt more sporty than premium.
    You know every bump in the road. Track models don even stiffer springs and shocks that might make it tiring as a daily driver."

    Regarding the comparison test between the Camaro and the Genesis Coupe, see:http://www.mpt.org/motorweek/reviews/rt2850a.shtml

    "The Genesis also benefits from a well-planted chassis. It delivers great grip, but also
    a harsh ride. Still, while both sport coupes are nimble, the much lighter Genesis feels more the part    ."

    "So, in the end it was not muscle that made the Camaro V6 our pick, but rather a combo of nostalgia, power that's fast and thrifty, great breakes [brakes], better ride, lower price, and of course styling that makes you grin from ear to ear."

    Were I in the market for a sporty type tudor, I would pick the Camaro also, especially
    when considering my problems with the lousy Azera suspension!

    :D
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    cobrazeracobrazera Member Posts: 352
    Many here who are in the know and must and still drive these cars, especially the Azeras, really understand what several of us are saying. The rest, who for some questionable reasons must keep up their false statements praising these different Hyundais
    I have owned my '06 Azera for nearly 3 years, and while its suspension is not perfect, it works very well for the broken, rutted, and miserable pavement on which it is driven. I don't drive the car because I " must and still " - for the $25K spent, it is still a pleasant and luxurious car to be in.
    I have been driving for nearly half a century and have owned many cars in that time and realize that no one car fits all requirements. Suspension, especially, is a compromise. I've owned lots of cars that handle great but will beat you to death. If I want to play, that's fine, but for everyday - give me comfort.
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    carolinabobcarolinabob Member Posts: 576
    "I have yet to read a review of the Genesis coupe, or sedan, that says the suspensions have a "problem."
    Suggest you read Oct. 09 Consumer Reports, the CR issue that reviewed the sedan, and issues reviewing sedan in Motor Trend, Car and Driver, Automobile Mag, Consumer Guide website, and others. I have listed them all before and haven't got time to look them up again, but they are there.
    Word "problem" may not have been used, but the implication is definitely there that the suspension is lacking.
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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Yes, "lacking" in the sense that it is not the cup of tea of the reviewer. "Problem" is something much different.

    The reason the reviewers did not use the term "problem" is because the suspension of the Genesis does not have a "problem." It has a certain feel that drivers will either like or not like. These reviewers are paid to be objective (and usually are).
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    m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    No disrespect, but that's what I got from my experience and complaints from people around me.

    The first 1000 miles or so the suspension will be pretty much ok, but from that point forward the ride will get rougher and rougher. All of them? No. In this case it's more of inconsistent quality than the wrong setting.

    Azera, I dont know what suspension they use in US, but those in Asia use the "comfort" suspension which turned out to be too firm, the same goes to Elantra, Accent, Trajet and H1 (not sold in US). There were enough complaints to make Hyundai recall those cars and replaced the suspension here last month.

    On a side note, to be fair I've never tried Amanti, Forte, Veracruz, the current Sportage or Rondo.
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    m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    Oh and I did say Genesis is purely an exception, the same goes to Equus (you have to try it to understand, think Korean Towncar = supersoft)
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    carolinabobcarolinabob Member Posts: 576
    Read the articles before trying to re-interpret them. I found a post I made on another forum where I did list the articles/reviews. So, to help you out, here they are. Read them, please - objectively. When a professional reviewer states that the damping rates and springs are in serious need of revision, I call that a problem, not just a cup of tea. The other reviews also stated that suspension/ride was not what it should be in Azera, Genesis, Equus level of cars.
    I have read reviews on Infiniti, Lexus, Acura, Lincoln, MB, Audi and few, if any, are as critical of suspensions as the below are of Hyundai's. The rides are different, but depending on the car that is to be expected.
    Consumer Reports, 02/09 and 10/09, Motor Trend, July 2009, Road & Track May 2009(Test Notes:Handling), AutomobileMag, May 2009, AutomobileMag, March 2009 (Kitman column), USA Today, James R. Healey, Nov. 08 report, Car & Driver, Oct. 2008, AutomobileMag, Oct 2008, Edmunds.com Inside Line, 04/09, Mike Hanley, Cars.com, 07/08, Consumersguide.com (howthingswork.com) test review of Genesis.
    The consumerguide.com review on the Azera also noted the problems - wish I had read it before I bought one.
    If there was no problem with the Genesis suspension, why did they revise it in March and again on the 2010 models. This came from a Hyundai Corp HQ person.
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    It looks like the pros like the suspension better than the Consumers

    "Julia LaPalme took the Genesis on a trip to San Francisco and came away appreciating ... the ride ("The suspension absorbs enough of the road imperfections for comfort, but leaves enough feel to remind me I'm still driving.")"

    Motor Trend Long Term Update (August '09 issue).

    "Tuned more toward the luxury end of the spectrum, the Genesis' suspension offers a soft ride with respectable handling. The latter is surprisingly neutral -- a run through the slalom showed the Genesis to be a little soft and slow, but impressively obedient. The electrohydraulic steering assist leaves the rack-and-pinion steering feeling more isolated from the tires than we'd prefer, but the steering itself is still precise and appropriate, given the scale and mission of the car."

    Edmunds Model Review
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    houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    In your original post you said that the Camaro won because of its superior suspension. I was pointing out that these were your words not Motor Weeks.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

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    carolinabobcarolinabob Member Posts: 576
    That's 2 for you to the 12 I listed that had concerns about it. See post 2850.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I am NOT anti-Hyundai, Azera, Genesis, Equus, etc. I just share the information which I come across that indicates that Hyundai needs to do a better job with their suspension and ride

    My emphasis on the "just" part.

    This is the problem - you only complain, hence you appear biased.

    At least share the whole picture, what do you like about your Azera? Why did you buy it in the first place? What are its redeeming qualities?

    You say with better ride/handling they'd be 10s, making everything else look like an afterthought. I'm sure the other 99% of those cars are important. Enough to make you buy one.
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