Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?

captain2

can't believe that you (or anybody else) would make these inferences. :surprise: Very happy you managed to pay cash for a coupla cars - and am duly impressed!

bobad

can't believe that you (or anybody else) would make these inferences.

That was you, and you keep implying that Hyundai owners are lower class. Or did you get a snootful of stale Grey Poupon and forget?

All kidding aside, I think there's a sizable segment of people that believe luxury is not a state of mind, but a tangible set of qualities.

backy

No one comes in to my dealership and asks "Will you be getting the new Genisis?" They ask questions such as, can I get a BMW or Mercedes or Lexus or Infinity or Audi or Porsche. . .

Uh... why would anyone come into your dealership asking for a new Genesis, unless you work at a Hyundai dealership? And what kind of dealership do you work for, where customers would come in and ask you about where they can get a new BMW or Mercedes or Lexus or Infiniti (note that is with an "i", not "y") or Audi or Porsche? Does your dealership sell all of those brands... and Hyundai too? Or are these people clueless and have no idea that, for example, to buy a BMW one goes to a BMW dealer? :confuse:

backy

They will be buyers who want the 'luxury feel but not the luxury price'.

So, if someone doesn't pay a price that YOU think is sufficient for a "luxury" car, they don't drive a luxury car? For example:

* Someone buys an M45 at a HUGE discount (yes, real-world scenario). Say they pay only $42k. So they don't own a luxury car since you have established that $42k doesn't qualify as a "luxury" car (that is what the Genesis 4.6 costs, and as you have told us, that's too inexpensive to be a luxury car).

* Someone leases a luxury car, pays only $399/month for a 5 Series for example. Again, that is too cheap for a "luxury" car, as you could buy a Buick or a Toyota for that monthly cost. Again, no luxury car in the garage.

* Someone buys a slightly used luxury car, maybe a Certified MB or BMW. Saves big bucks. Mabye gets an E Class for under $40k. Again, sorry, they don't own a luxury car because they didn't pay enough.

Does anyone else see a flaw in this logic? :surprise:

backy

MB always has produced commercial and industrial vehicles, and has had a lower line car for about 80 years now. It's hard to compare this lineup to anyone, as nobody really has anything similar.

Guess what? So does Hyundai. The only area Hyundai doesn't offer comparable vehicles to MB is in the super-luxury class... and who knows what the next few years will bring? Meanwhile, MB doesn't offer supertankers or frigates. Try pricing one of THOSE babies.

So, how is Hyundai different from MB again, other than that a larger proportion of MB's car sales are in luxury cars compared to Hyundai? Both offer a full line of vehicles. Both offer low-end cars and luxury cars. Both sell all of these vehicles under one brand name.

captain2

sizable segment of people that believe luxury is not a state of mind
I can agree with this as well - but also believe that are even more folks that look at a mainstream mass market mfgr like Hyundai and have a whole bunch of difficulty seeing a luxury anything. Hyundai may be making the best cars for the least amount of money out there - but that doesn't change the fact that it is not a luxury brand. Conversely, those same folks might look at 'luxury branded' product from Lexus, for example ,and assume it is a luxury product even if it isn't. Brand perceptions are tough nuts to crack...

captain2

So, how is Hyundai different from MB again, other than that a larger proportion of MB's car sales are in luxury cars compared to Hyundai
that one is easy because 0% of Hyundai branded cars are luxury and I would guess that a solid 80% of MBs are.
A $36k C230 is NOT the same as a $10k Accent BTW , one is a well engineered entry level car that happens to wear a desireable badge, the other is a econobox deathtrap that happens to wear a badge with a less than desireable past.

stever

But is it a luxury car, or an "executive" car or an "entry level" Mercedes?

Or an overpowered little sedan? (Have you seen the HP numbers on the sport model? Not to mention the AMGs)

fintail

H hasn't made supercars, H hasn't made cars for leaders of world import, H hasn't made sportscars, H hasn't made roadsters, H doesn't currently offer a range that is as diverse as a little Smart and A-class to various buses and vans to a diverse truck line to a diesel taxi to bread and butter sedans and wagons to tuned cars to a SLS/SLR, H hasn't been the most desired mass market brand on the world market for generations, H doesn't have a storied racing history, H doesn't yet have 100+ years of innovation, prestige, and heritage to draw from, that's how they are different. And yes, as you say, selling a high relative percentage of vehicles in the upper end of the spectrum over a long period of time is important in this context, too.

I'd like to see if that marine technology can transfer to cars in any way. DBAG in the past has made aero and marine engines, and even parts for firearms...I don't know if it helped the cars any.

rlsonline

I work at a used luxury car dealership. Yes, we sell all luxury cars (2000 - 2010). No, Hyundai is not one of them. That is my point. That is my only point. Hyundai will never be on my lot for sale because they are not a luxury car.

captain2

I believe MB just discontinued the 4 banger C230 in favor of a 225 hp 3 liter V6 in the now C300 - but in either case I can't imagine you could call either 'overpowered'. C63 at 450hp OTH now that would be your ticket and certainly overkill in the power dept. MBs, particularily the AMG variants have always been pretty big in the brute force dept and it also costs $60k, not a mere $35k. Luxury car? Not in my book, it's simply too small - ultimate 'sports sedan' though, maybe.

Hey, that's an idea for Hyundai - shoehorn a blown 450hp V8 into the Coupe, and enter the sports sedan derby with something to fight with. Only the Vette engined Camaro would have a chance?

All the German mfgrs. produce what have to be called 'entry level' products something made simply to get those badge/prestige conscious American butts into their seats, the BMW 1s and lower 3s, the Cs, A3s etc etc. Not luxury cars but certainly luxury brands. Luxury has really nothing to do with HP necessarily but it sure is fun

stever

You could use the same argument to say that those entry level vehicles have watered down the brand cachet.

captain2

watered down the brand cachet
and I certainly would, witness what has happened to Acura with its continuing presence in the 'rice rocket' end of things or ditto originally for Infiniti with its G20, and I35.
Hyundai does have an advantage in this regard they have no 'brand cachet' - or what they do have they would like to forget.

backy

You need to learn more about Hyundai it appears. Hyundai offers a diverse line of cars, many of which are not offered in the US. (Since you mentioned MB models not available in the US, I assume you have lifted the "US only" rule some want to impose on this discussion.) Hyundai offers minicars smaller than the Accent. They offer diesel cars, yes even diesel taxis e.g.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/terenceong/523957237/

They offer cars similar in size to the A-class. They offer a wide variety of trucks. They offer buses and vans. Of course they offer bread and butter sedans and wagons. They offer one sports car, there's lots of tuned Hyundais out there, and have built a roadster but not yet put it into production. And they have a racing team. 100 years of history? No. But a very, very diverse product line, in some ways more diverse than MB's--and in some ways not. One thing is for sure: Hyundai has a lot more than you and others here give them credit for. Show me where it is written that a company must have 100 years of history making cars in order to make a luxury car. MB didn't, when they started making luxury cars, did they now?

backy

450 hp? Heck, that's nothing! Try 550 hp.

http://www.rsportscars.com/hyundai/2010-rhys-millen-racing-hyundai-genesis-coupe- /

backy

Then tell us again please... why would someone come to a used car dealership asking to buy a "new Genesis"? :confuse:

If you want to keep Hyundais out of your dealership, that's up to you. But that doesn't mean used Hyundai luxury cars aren't available at other dealerships.. and in fact they are. Do a search and see for yourself, e.g. try "european motors addison tx" and see what you see.

Since some luxury car dealerships sell used Hyundai Genesis cars, does that make them a luxury car?

But then, you must realize that most of what you sell are NOT luxury cars. I'll bet you sell a lot of cars for less than $40k, yes? Which means they by definition (of some here) are not luxury cars--not pricey enough. I hope you explain that to the buyers of these not-quite luxury cars.

rlsonline

1) Because we sell up to 2010 vehicles.
2) Just because a handful of dealerships bill them as luxury vehicles, doesn't mean its the general census.
3) No. They just aren't.
4) I tell my clients on a regular basis that there are different breeds of luxury. I just don't include Hyundai in the discussion because it doesn't belong there in my humble opinion.
I like you backy. You've got verve. I just disagree with you completely!

backy

So a sample size of one rules, as long as it's YOUR personal sample? I got it.

rlsonline

I will gladly sample the vast majority of everyone who knows cars. I'm quite certain that it would be a 70/30 split on people who would ever put luxury and Hyundai in the same topic of conversation, but, yes, this being a forum and me speaking for myself, it is only my opinion that I can write about! I'm glad you got it!

fintail

You're kidding me, right? I know very well that H makes many cars that aren't sold here...and many of them have been less than world class. H's lineup isn't as diverse as what is offered by DBAG, especially as the latter has had this diverse lineup and sold it successfully across the planet for generations, before H was a twinkle in its mother's eye.

Which H is a really a sports car? Genesis coupe? That's stretching it. A roadster concept couldn't mean less - make it and sell it, or nothing. Where does H race that anyone knows or cares? What history of racing victory and legend does H own? Where can one buy a tuned H, who markets these anywhere? Homemade creations don't count.

" Show me where it is written that a company must have 100 years of history making cars in order to make a luxury car."

Show me where I said this. Please.

MB cars have been considered luxury cars for more than a century. They played at the high end of the market from the beginning. Yes, MB didn't have a century of history when it started making high end cars - it had no history, the automotive world for all intents and purposes was newborn ,it had no history. Not really comparable.

rlsonline

Backy, Bobad and Steve vs. rlsonline, captain2 and fintail

Is that accurate?

backy

I'm quite certain that it would be a 70/30 split on people who would ever put luxury and Hyundai in the same topic of conversation,...

I would say that 30% of a house would be a pretty decent sized room, and 30% of people thinking of "Hyundai" and "luxury" together defines a pretty good sized "room" in the luxury market. Anyone else think so?

backy

No. Pretty much you, captain2 and fintail vs. everyone else.

backy

I think you are confusing diversity with longevity. MB obviously has it all over Hyundai in longevity. Where was MB in diversity at a similar point in its history?

You never said outright that a company must have 100 years of history making cars in order to make a luxury car. But I think you are strongly implying that with your recent statements slamming Hyundai because they haven't been around as long as MB. Why should that matter in a discussion as to Hyundai's place in the luxury car market?

smarty666

I think a lot of people are getting hung up and confused about what exactly the question of this forum is asking, or maybe I'm confused, who knows :P , but anyway I think when it comes down to it the Genesis def has room in the luxury market but as a WHOLE brand, Hyundai is not a luxury company and is not on the same level as a WHOLE COMPANY as compared to MB, BMW, Audi, Infiniti, Acura, Lexus, and Porsche!

This of course always has the possibility of changing if Hyundai were to add several other high end, high priced luxury models to their line-up without opening up a luxury division!

Now in regards to the Genesis, I mean to pay almost 44k for a fully loaded V8 Genesis and say its not a luxury car is just insane :confuse: !!! For a car that costs that much and for the luxury features you get it has to be a luxury sedan! I mean for those prices your into Lexus, Audi, MB, and other luxury territory so the Genesis is def a luxury car!

just my two cents!!

stever

Backy, Bobad and Steve vs. rlsonline, captain2 and fintail

Luxury to me is not having any car payments.

fintail

H has been building cars for ~35 years. That far into DBAG history, it too was very diverse - smaller cars to luxobarges to every sort of commercial vehicle to world-leading race cars. But that's pretty irrelevant, the entire planet was different, and the globalized markets of today did not exist.

Go back and read...I posted that MB has had competed in virtually every part of the automotive market for around 80 years, and because nobody else can claim this,it is hard to compare...and you had to reply that H does as well, while H doesn't actually compete in every segment, and then asked how H is different from MB. It seems some are maddened that anyone can claim that someone covers more bases than the swoopy H, and actually has more cachet and admiration. H fans don't have to think "anything you can do, I can do better"...it seems insecure.

I have not slammed H for not being as old as MB...please show me where I even implied this. Virtually no maker is as old as MB, so if I am going to slam H for that, I would have to do it to all others. However, history and heritage are important for many luxury buyers, and they are a reason some choose certain brands. It just might be a reason some are unable be a success everywhere.

snakeweasel

But, they will not be traditional, die hard luxury buyers.

Are you talking about die hard luxury buyers or just snobs who would buy a rusted out Yugo if it had a BMW badge on it?

I know a few people who could pay cash for any car made that will not even consider some brands because of the snob appeal. One of them is very interested in what the Equus will offer.

acdii

Wow a death trap eh? You really know your cars! woohoo. Care to explain then why trade in value on my 2008 Hyundai Veracruz is so high? Just for fun I priced out a C300Luxury, sells for roughly the same price as the Veracruz, trade in with the same amount of miles is roughly $2000 less on the MB than the Veracruz. Hmm, I think a smart buyer would put their money into a brand that can hold value, and not waste it on "luxury" brands. Luxury is a perception, and a lot of people can be fooled with the Luxury perception. Slap an L on a Camry and charge 10K more for it, people flock to it. PT was right! I don't care how much you gussy up a Camry, call it an ES and slap an L on it's hood, it is still a Camry.

You guys who keep bashing Hyundai for making a VERY good car that puts it in a class above others, while making it affordable for those who would like a MB but could never imagine wasting their money on one, should do a reality check. A Genesis is no different than a Lexus just because it has an H on its trunk, as a Lexus is nothing more than a Toyota with an L on its hood. I drove a Camry for 16 months, 34K miles, went to the Auto Show last week, sat in a ES and thought I was back in my old car with fancier trim. I compared a Lexus RX400h to the Veracruz, I would rather have the Veracruz, and my 15 YO son agrees that the Hyundai was nicer than the Lexus, and he has a taste for expensive things.

I really do want to know where the deathtrap reference is from since Hyundai makes some of the safest cars on the road today. Just for fun I googled Hyundai deaths, guess what I found, hmm

Road of Death

bobad

This of course always has the possibility of changing if Hyundai were to add several other high end, high priced luxury models to their line-up...

When they do, the detractors will want several more, and several more after that, ad infinitum.

Meanwhile, the smart people that aren't afraid to catch cooties will be enjoying their high quality $45K luxury cars.

bobad

Luxury to me is not having any car payments

That's also very high on my list!

smarty666

well personally, I don't think that is going to happen, Hyundai's continued upward profit, increasing sales, more people buying their vehicles, and higher market share I think will eventually allow Hyundai to open up their own luxury division, which then will compete directly with all the German, Japanese, and American luxury makers!

its only a matter of time till if happens!!

backy

It seems some are maddened that anyone can claim that someone covers more bases than the swoopy H, and actually has more cachet and admiration. H fans don't have to think "anything you can do, I can do better"...it seems insecure.

Why do you need to degrade people who disagree with you by assigning emotions to them of anger and insecurity, merely because they suggest that Hyundai has indeed a very diverse lineup of vehicles, missing only a few niche segments, only one of which even applies to this discussion: super-luxury cars. I simply don't agree that because Hyundai has only one model that is a bona fide race car (I think a 550 hp, track-tuned coupe qualifies for that category, don't you?), no sport convertible, and no 100 years of history, it does not have a very broad product lineup. That is not an angry statement or an insecure statement, but an opinion which I realize doesn't jive with yours. Unless you can read minds, you should refrain from assessing the emotional state of other posters here.

I have not slammed H for not being as old as MB...please show me where I even implied this.

I think the multiple emphatic statements you made in recent posts about MB's long history implied such a slam quite strongly, along with the fact that you brought MB's long history into a discussion thread on product diversity.

However, history and heritage are important for many luxury buyers, and they are a reason some choose certain brands. It just might be a reason some are unable be a success everywhere.

Maybe some buyers think it's worth more of their money if the car they buy is made from a company that's been in business 100 years vs. only 50 or 30 or even 20 years. Some obviously don't care one bit about that, such as all the buyers of Lexus and Infiniti products. How old are those brands? How old are those automakers overall? Is the time an automaker has been in business really a barrier to grabbing some room in the luxury market? Companies other than Hyundai have proven it's not that important.

smarty666

and we were getting along so good in the mid-size forum well I agree with some of what you say, especially about the German Luxury makers, I don't when it comes to the Japanese luxury divisions vs the mainstream divisions!

in regards to MB, BMW, Porsche, and Audi, I like some of the vehicles they make but nothing ever comes standard on their vehicles, things like heated seats, HID, upgrade audio system, CD change or Audio Inputs, heated mirrors, and many other features are typically all stand alone option extras that when added to the cars make them several thousand more dollars then their Acura, Lexus, Infiniti, and Genesis competition! I have never understood why I should pay more for a MB, BMW, or Audi for that kind of stuff that comes either standard or in cheaper option packages on their Japanese and Korean counterparts, which all hold their values better and have higher reliability compared to their German and American luxury counterparts!

now, in regards to the Japanese, I'm quite qualified to comment since I currently have a Nissan and Infiniti, plus a Acura! First off, I disagree about this 10k price difference between a Camry-ES350, Accord-TL, and Maxima-G37! For instance, when loaded completely up the ES has a 10k price difference to the Camry but if your sensible (not getting navigation, like I do since I would rarely use it) the price diff between the Camry and ES350 is really only 5-6k; so your not talking that much money and the price difference between a Accord/TL and Maxima/G37 is even less than this so this idea that luxury cars cost 10k dollars or more compared to their mainstream counterparts is ridiculous; I know of several people on here who have gotten either the same or only a slightly higher price on their payments of a Accord and TL and Maxima and G37 so if you play your cards right you can be in a luxury car without breaking the bank

I respectively disagree with your astounding statement that people who get vehicles from the luxury division, myself included, are stupid and don't realize we are wasting our money; that statement couldn't be farther from the truth; I'm sick of hearing this baloney that a ES is a rebadged Camry or the TL is a rebadged Accord and the same with Maxima and G37! it is just not true; people such as yourself, who make foolish statements like that really don't research and look at the cars in depth and spend too much time paying attention the letter that is on the front and rear end of the vehicles before I got my 08 TL, I test drove the Accord two times and the TL two times, the material quality, fit and finish, dealership experience, ride refinement and engine refinement were all better in the TL over the Accord plus the seats were much more comfortable plus the TL handled and gripped the road much better than the Accord did! All these were reasons why I chose the TL over the Accord; last year I test drove a Camry XLE back to back against a ES350 and I couldn't disagree more that the ES was a rebadged Camry; the ES was not only nicer in material quality/fit and finish over the Camry, but the ride was more refined and better controlled in almost every aspect, the seats more comfortable and many more tech features then the Camry had, plus the cabin was noticeably quieter than the Camry's!

The lease quote I got from the Toyota dealer was $3000 down for $420 a month for 36 months while the Lexus dealer quoted me the same lease terms but came up with $2500 down for $450 a month for 36 months! As you can see, despite the 5k price difference the Lexus was not that much more than the Camry despite the fact the ES was much nicer and more refined in almost every regard! plus, when I drove the ES, some of the dash didn't come apart like it did in the Camry when I drove it!

one thing you seem to don't understand is with the luxury divisions are, you not only paying more for higher material quality/fit and finish, better build, etc, that extra money is paying for a much better dealership experience (I can a test to this with the service and treatment I get from my Nissan dealer and from my Infiniti dealer) in regards to more comfortable waiting areas, free food (even gourment food) and drinks, loaner cars, come to your house to pick up your car and drop it back off; plus, keep in mind you paying a little bit more for a longer standard factory warranty 4yr/48k vs 3yr/36k miles and various other things

if your like me, if you build the car right and not load it up with crap like nav, all around cameras, and stuff like that you can be in a Acura, Infiniti, or Lexus for nearly the same or if not only a little bit more money then the comparable Honda, Nissan, or Toyota - too me that not stupid

I find people like you who say we are stupid for buying or leasing luxury vehicles and say TL and ES350 are rebadged Accords and Camry's respectively either:

A) have never really researched in depth the different equipment and features they have that cost them to be more money and do not test drive them back to back
[OR]
have never owned a luxury car to know the difference in treatment, conveniences, and experience the luxury dealerships give you that the mainstream ones don't and trust me there are many of them
[OR]
C) do not have the income or budget to even own or lease a luxury car and so call people who can stupid and deluded because they are jealous of the people who can afford to do that and calling them stupid makes them feel better about buying a mainstream vehicle

I'm not sure but calling people stupid for getting a luxury vehicle that you don't like and then being defensive because you and others on here are trying to say Hyundai is a luxury company seems a little hypocritical! I hate to break it to you, but Acura, Infiniti, and Lexus hold their value the best of all the automakers, even more then their mainstream counterparts! no automobile is an investment, they depreciate terribly as soon as you leave the lot so your technically throwing your money down the toilet anyway, even if you get a Hyundai! so I figured if that is the case with any automaker, why not splurge a little and drive something a little bit fancier :confuse:

Now please, don't take what I am saying as a slash about Hyundai! the Genesis is a very nice luxury sedan and the new Sonata is nice but please it is hypocritical for you to say that people who get a Acura, Infiniti, Lexus, MB, BMW, or Audi are stupid and deluded because they are throwing their money away in thinking they are getting luxury but then come around and say that a Genesis V8 at almost 44k would not be stupid to buy because its a Hyundai and not Lexus, come on, give me a break

A luxury car, as I have found, if equipped and maintained right does not have to break the bank and at the same time you get to ride in something that is of a higher qua

backy

Don't mince words! Tell us what you really think!

Acura, Infiniti, and Lexus hold their value the best of all the automakers, even more then their mainstream counterparts!

That surprises me greatly, that luxury brands hold their value better than mainstream automakers, e.g. Acuras holding their value better than Hondas. I looked for some supporting evidence on that but was unable to find it. Do you have a link to that kind of info?

stever

You could look at the depreciation rates using the True Cost to Own tool.

Residual rates could be another metric I suppose.

captain2

Wow a death trap eh? You really know your cars!
the Accent, which is what I was talking about, is one of the very few automobiles (its Kia cousin being the other) currently made that FAILS NHTSA impact tests - look it up, maybe you'll learn something. CR won't even rate the thing. TMK though it is the only model Hyundai produces that is like that, but Hyundai should pull it off the market until they can build a safer econobox.
But you are right though, Hyundai does generally make competitively safe vehicles - just not the Accent I was talking about.

captain2

everyone else? - maybe on this site - it's hard to outnumber the fanboys who are convinced you are dissing what they have in their driveways when, in fact we are not doing that at all. Instead we are talking about Hyundai as a luxury brand precisely what this forum is supposed to address, don't remember any of 'us' slamming Hyundai, its products or FTM its recent accomplishments.
It is possible, believe it or not, to recognize Hyundai recent improvements while still recognizing how Hyundai's past might negatively influence any efforts Hyundai might make into the luxury side of the market.

backy

I looked for info on residuals, and all I could find was that ALG separates out "luxury" brands from "mainstream" brands when listing who has the best residual values. The latest report I found said Acura was tops for "luxury" brands and Subaru for "mainstream" brands, but it did not compare the two kinds of brands.

backy

it's hard to outnumber the fanboys who are convinced you are dissing what they have in their driveways when, in fact we are not doing that at all.

No. And those that disagree with you on this topic are not "fanboys", and don't have their opinion because they are convinced you are "dissing" what they have in their driveways.

If you and fintail can't participate in this discussion without denigrating those who disagree with you, maybe you should find somewhere else to spend your free time.

The fact of the matter is, I think your position is illogical and unsupportable in the light of current realities. The fact that I own and have owned Hyundais gives me a perspective on the company that you and fintail and others who have not actually owned a Hyundai cannot have. Just as I have not owned a MB or Lexus or Infiniti vehicle, so I don't have the perspective on those that someone who has owned them has.

bobad

everyone else? - maybe on this site - it's hard to outnumber the fanboys

What makes you think you gotta keep hurling that F bomb? It simply doesn't fit. (can't speak for anyone else, but I'm a fan of no car or car manufacturer).

The minute my H lets me down, I'll drop it unceremoniously and never look back. I bought my H because I have no brand loyalty, and I'm constantly looking for something better, regardless of badge. I'm not BS'ing either. My last 4 cars were all different brands.

captain2

No. Pretty much you, captain2 and fintail vs. everyone else
this is YOUR post of yesterday - and YOU don't think that is presumptive ????
As far as-
If you and fintail can't participate in this discussion without denigrating those who disagree with you, maybe you should find somewhere else to spend your free time
we do have something called the 1st amendment in this country, and if a term like 'fanboy' bothers you, sorry about that, but maybe you need to look closely in the mirror.
IMO, of course, there should not be anything negative in the term anyway, - think about it - my Dad, for example was a Buick fanboy for almost as long as he lived, would imagine yours was as well (of somebody) , we all are fanboys of something. Not being able to admit it, is something else again. I currently drive Toyotas and Nissans, I plead guilty to being a J3 fanboy and also to being an absolute car nut.

fintail

Who is being degraded? In my eyes, some of the claims here translate to some insecurity over their chosen brand...the wild "innovation" claims and such as have been seen in the past. It is not meant to be personal. Making excessive claims, to me, is overcompensation. H has nothing to be ashamed of today, the light years of progress it has made in the past 15 years should be enough.

550hp track tuned coupe? Does Hyundai build this, or is it made by a private shop, not available for purchase? Which tuned products can I buy right now? Performance and image cars such as convertibles directly relate to gaining higher end cred, and they make for a truly wide product line. It is not believable that someone does have a wider vehicle lineup than H?

History was mentioned as its relevancy to playing in the luxury game. A couple of players essentially own the luxury market on a global basis, and one cannot deny history is a significant player in this. There's a reputation built by it that is older than any of us.

fintail

Maybe some people don't want to drive a big bland sled like a Veracruz?

MB have historically had steep initial deprecation, but comparing it with a vehicle from an entirely different segment is a suspect argument, IMHO. Who the heck cross shops a tall wagon with a small sedan?

lemko

The only existing automaker that is closest in age to Mercedes is Ford.

fintail

I think Buick, Cadillac, and Ford all date to 1902-1903. Peugeot, Renault, Opel, and Vauxhall are also very old.

acdii

I wasn't comparing the vehicle, I was comparing the price, IE two similarly priced vehicles both selling and trade-in values. How about a 2001 S600 that retailed for over 100K that can now be purchased for roughly $12K? I would say it didn't hold it's value very much. That is a larger depreciation rate than a Crown Vic!

It doesn't matter, luxury is still a perception, not a fact! One man's luxury is anothers POS. The majority of these luxury cars are status symbols, looky at me I drive an expensive car, big deal, I'll take a reliable, dependable Ford over them any day of the week. I have had a Ford last me well over 300K miles over 20 years, I have an F350 sitting in my garage that no MB, BMW, Audi, or what not can even compare to, wouldn't trade it for one if given the opportunity. I have access to a body shop, and right now there is a 2003 MB sitting in there that the insurance company totaled from a minor front end collision, it needs a hood, radiator support, grill, and 2 headlights. It was totaled because the headlights alone cost nearly $3000 to replace. Same damage to a Fusion, insurance would have had it repaired. There's your luxury for you!

smarty666

yes, that is one source, but as you pointed out that just shows that Acura and the other Japanese luxury divisions have higher resale values compared to their American and German counterparts

if you go to Kelly Blue Book you'll see that the luxury divisions have slightly higher resale values then their mainstream counterparts! I only put these as examples to illustrate my point but I did some comparisons for SUVs and the resale values of luxury division SUVs are higher then their mainstream SUV counterparts as well!

Acura TL: 56% of msrp after 3 years
Honda Accord: 48% of msrp after 3 years

Lexus ES350: 59% of msrp after 3 years
Toyota Camry: 50% of msrp after 3 years

Infiniti G37: 50% of msrp after 3 years
Nissan Maxima: 49% of msrp after 3 years

Cadillac CTS: 51% of msrp after 3 years
Buick LaCrosse: 47% of msrp after 3 years
Chevrolet Impala: 33% of msrp after 3 years

Hyundai Sonata: 35% of msrp after 3 years
Hyundai Genesis: 47% of msrp after 3 years

keep in mind, the numbers above I used as examples are vehicles without tech, nav, or sport packages since all these severely hurt the residual values of vehicles, especially navigation systems!!

what interesting with Hyundai is, the Genesis, which is a LUXURY sedan holds it value better than its mainstream Sonata counterpart! only going to prove my point further!

when you think about it, factory navigation systems are a real waste of money because not only do they really hurt the resale value of their cars, but they are expensive to maintain and update and if they go out they are incredibly expensive to replace! the only way a factory navigation system pays off if you are like one of my good friends who is a corporate sales rep for AT&T; he uses his factory nav system 5-6 days a week constantly for when he goes to meet and see clients in areas where he has never been; in certain rare circumstance like this the nav system pays off! but if your like me, I'm lucky if I would use it at maximum once a month maybe twice and is it really worth it to pay the 2-4k price premium that the car companies want for them :confuse: not really - your better to spend 100-200 bucks on a really nice and portable Garmin or Magellan that you use only from time to time and can be used in multiple cars!!!

stever

Some people are car fans and if they're boys, fine. Just don't make it personal.

Some members here identify with a brand enough that their member name incorporates GM or Chevy or whatever. That's fine too. If we weren't car fans, we would be chatting somewhere else.

Now, if we're keeping score, the only brand I've owned more than once is VW. Unless you consider a Jeep CJ-5 and a Plymouth Voyager the same brand. Luxury doesn't seem to correspond with utility so I haven't felt the urge to venture in the upscale direction. Although a Geländewagen has great external roof racks for installing a real canoe rack on top; that could tempt me.

fintail

Price isn't relevant to resale value or cost to repair. If you want to see real depreciation, check out an aging Rolls or Bentley...and old V12 BMWs stand the test of value and time even worse than old V12 MB.

Yes, luxury is a perception. One can get leather and a nice nav system in a Civic or Corolla these days - real luxury to many. It's all relative to anyone's given frame of mind and reference.

Good luck with your truck.