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Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?

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Comments

  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Posts: 1,491
    And that is their right, and they should pursue that.
    I guess I don't get why spend all your time here bashing the Genesis?
    It's a totally different suspension, platform, RWD even.


    Uh, me or someone else? Just to prevent further misunderstanding. :shades:

    Anyway, you do have a point. Just because Azera is problematic doesn't mean Genesis is the same. Personally, apart from the bland face and not so good interior materials, I don't see anything wrong with Genesis. And (also as I stated long ago), it's pretty much a very good contender in the near luxo market.

    @Sandman: Beauty is so subjective. I find Equus' skin totally ugly and the interior bland but with plush materials.
  • I'm trying to figure out the point of your so called argument. Why should Hyundai heed to your protocol of not diluting the brand with the Genesis Coupe? Luxury isn't just about price, but it's is about the quality. Of course Luxury and price are correlated to each other with respect to time and evolution of society.

    I think if Hyundai wants to try their strategy of not establishing a luxury brand, that is fine. I do not see anything faulty with selling High end cars along with lower end models. If, that saves costs to the Manufacturer, dealer, and eventually the owner, it's an interesting strategy to come up with. The only recommendation that I would provide to Hyundai would be to separate the badges of the Genesis and Equus apart from the the mainstream mid-size Sonatas and Elantras. That will certainly assuage consumers who like to separate the car with a certain brand image.
    Hyundai could certainly accomodate haughty customers with that demand.
  • "About Azera, I doubt people are complaining about the silly clunks. [True]
    The one and only complaint I experienced (and heard so many times) in real life (no internet source) is that the suspension will get rough and ride quality will diminish greatly once the car's been driven for about 1000 miles. The Azera I drove, which at that moment just had a new suspension replacement, started bucking and clunking after around 500 miles, which lead me to question the durability of it's suspension bits. I thought it was just my bad luck, but later I found out that there were plenty similar complaints.

    Is it still the same way now? Or has the factory fixed this problem? I honestly have no idea,
    as I haven't driven Azera lately."


    Thank you for your comments! At least Bob and I have a little sympathy.
    What you discribe is exactly what both Bob and I have experienced firsthand. When new, the cars were fine. When the first set of replacement shocks were installed, everything was fine again.
    Then those shocks went South also, so as a "goodwill" gesture by Hyundai, those were also replaced
    by the latest and current so called "improved" 640 shocks which became available 10/20/07.
    Within less than 1000 miles, both of us knew we were still in trouble.

    "PS: aftermarket shocks for faulty stock is no longer the trend, I've never heard of any replacement shocks produced for any 2000-now specific make-model (unless for mods or performance purposes).
    Today almost all manufacturers are focusing on getting things right due to fierce competition.
    Forget aftermarkets, today's all about filing a complaint or taking legal action."


    It is indeed too bad that we have to resort to legal remedies to take care of this problem.
    But what else can we do?
    Hyundai could have but did not come up with a acceptable factory replacement which in the long
    run would have cost them much less than having to buy-back vehicles that are unsatisfactory.
    Not only would it have been less expensive moneywise, but the goodwill generated
    by such a move would have endeared Hyundai to their customers for some time.
    Now, do you really think I will ever buy another or recommend any Hyundai to anyone?
  • I have 2008 Azera , that i have had for over a year and i have over 30k miles on it. No problems or clunks or noises it is just a great reliable car. So yes i think Hyundai can build and sell a luxury model. The Genesis is the starting point. I personally know very well off individuals who have traded in their old Mercedes and BMW's for a new Genesis. These are smart and brand conscience people. Hyundai does very well here. During the worst part of the year in Jan. and Feb. my local Hyundai dealership was selling out of their Genesis stock. That is all they were selling those couple of months. Honda does well with the Acura brand, but to me and a lot of people i know Acura is by no means considered a luxury brand. Infinity and Lexus are. These next couple of years are going to be transformational for Hyundai and I am excited to be around to see it happen.
  • LASHAWNLASHAWN Posts: 303
    I don't think Hyundai is worried about making luxury cars as you may think. I think they just wanna make cars the growing public will want to buy and that my friend is what their doing with the Genesis sedan/coupe and soon the Equus. Let's all face the music here. It's the public placing labels on these cars and the manufacturers are just giving the people what they want, luxury or not. If any of the D3 could make their small cars with all the amenities the Sclass offers and sell it for around $40-$60k someone would buy it, trust me on that.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,686
    adding the lower priced car is all well and good ONCE you have an established flagship.

    So, then, the J3 got it wrong after all. One of the initial cars in Acura's lineup was the Integra. One of the initial cars in Infiniti's lineup was the G20. And one of the cars in Lexus' original 2-car lineup was the ES250 (aka Camry with a Lexus badge). None of them had an established flagship before adding these low-end cars to their lineups.

    The same can be said for Hyundai, and why Hyundai really needs to do a little more work improving its image before they worry about making 'luxury cars'..

    Ah, now we see the focal point of your argument! It's not about badging or dealers or any of that. You don't think Hyundai should be trying to sell luxury cars at all.

    Earth to Captain: They are doing it. Today. Against your expert advice. Disappointing, I know, but try to get over it. ;)
  • toyetoye Posts: 351
    Captain

    This is not the same Hyundai that you were associated with back in the late 80's and early 90's..
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    no argument on the interior, but more a function of it being a D3 product than it is because it happens to be for sale at Chevrolet dealers

    Hmmm, dunno about that.

    Look at the interior of the Caddy CTS...gorgeous hand-stitched leather on the dash and all.

    Heck, a Malibu's interior is nicer than a Corvette.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Definitely not you, no.

    The Azera and Genesis have little in common besides the manufacturer. And you could say the same about RFK and JFK, Jr. In fact I'm sure those 2 had a lot more DNA in common. LOL :D
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    You don't think Hyundai should be trying to sell luxury cars at all.

    there yopu go - now you've got it - THEY DON'T AND CAN"T, at least in my somewhat and admittedly jaundiced eyes. But whatt you don't seem to get is that I really do think that it has very little to do with their products.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Perhaps they started using those revised 640 shocks on the new production before replacing the faulty existing ones.

    And unless the Genesis uses the same part number, that discussion probably belongs in the Azera threads.

    It weighs a bunch more so I'm sure the parts are quite different.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    That's not their goal - their goal is to make a profit. Their unorthodox approach seems to be working.
  • Karen_CMKaren_CM Posts: 5,018
    FWIW, this discussion resides in the Automotive News forum and not in the Hyundai Azera group. If you are accessing by using the Browse by Vehicle search, it may appear to be in that group, but that's because the search will find all discussions that has the Azera in the category. If you wish to talk strictly about the Azera, I suggest you do so in that specific group.

    http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX/.f0aaebf

    Community Manager If you have any questions or concerns about the Forums, send me an email, karen@edmunds.com, or click on my screen name to send a personal message.

  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,686
    THEY DON'T AND CAN"T

    That would have been an interesting position to discuss back, oh say 18 months ago. But since they CAN and DO, today, and have been for over a year now, and in pretty decent volumes for this kind of car, it's a bit out of date for a position, no matter what the basis for it.

    Now, if you want to start a thread here on whether Hyundai will be successful selling the Equus in the U.S., taking the next jump into the luxury market, that's fair game. But arguing that the sun didn't rise in the East today is kinda a waste of time, don't you think?
  • bobadbobad Posts: 1,587
    That would be me.

    I have never had the urge to drive around the neighborhood grinning and trying to impress the neighbors. If I do get the urge, my friends and neighbors will let me take a spin in their fancy cars. I look way beyond a badge. Badges are mostly for the Gray Poupon set, kids, and adults that never grew up.
  • bobadbobad Posts: 1,587
    As I have said before, if Hyundai really does think itself a 'luxury' brand then more expensive even better equipped cars like the Equus are likely a good idea. To start cheapening the Genesis name before they have even established it, a big mistake IMO....

    Instead of all the stratagising, conniving, and gorilla dust, why not make good cars? You can do it cheaper if you don't spend 100's of millions on slick marketing.

    The same can be said for Hyundai, and why Hyundai really needs to do a little more work improving its image before they worry about making luxury cars'..

    Right. And how is the best way to build your image? By building good cars, of course!
  • Hi Everyone,
    I'm new to the forum... just looking for some information to get started on researching used vans -
    I'm looking for a used van with up to 100K miles, preferrably less. I'm hoping to spend less than $8K on the vehicle. I run a series of cycling and triathlon camps where I will need to transport up to 8 passengers plus 8-10 bicycles (with front wheel taken off) and a week's worth of luggage for 8 people (~8 large bags and 10-15 backpacks). I'm also looking to use this as a personal vehicle for camping trips and as an alternate to pricey hotels (looking for enough extra floor space for a full size mattress).
    I think what I need is a 15 passenger van, and then I will remove the 2 rear bench seats. I'm not sure if there are other options like extended 8 passenger vans or 12 passenger vans and whether these are typically the same body style and size with just a different seat configuration. Right now, I only see models by Chevy, Dodge, and Ford. I wasn't sure if VW, Toyota, etc. make a comparable vehicle. I'm looking to compile a list of makes and models that would fit these needs. Thanks in advance for your input.
  • Sorry, I meant to post this as a seperate thread. How do you start a new thread on this board?
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    see and the difference with you is that you look at what is unquestionably a nicely appointed full size car - looking at in terms of bling for the buck - and say 'this is a luxury car'.. I say that there is a lot more to a 'luxury' car than that nice leather, wood, electronic gar-bage etc. It's more about how the car is perceived, and on that basis, my contention is something called a Hyundai can never be a luxury car regardless of how 'nice' it is. This is NOT a dig at Hyundai specifically because this is the same situation that the base J3 and D3 brands share as well.
    The Equus will present an interesting problem for Hyundai, IMO, because then apparently they will be broaching a true lux pricetag ($50k+) - and no longer can they sell a car because it is significantly cheaper (or offers that much more value) , the car buyer will have other choices that do have the appropriate badge recognition for about the same $. When the car buyer spends that kind of money and chooses a Korean product over a similarly priced Japanese or German one, that is when we will know that Hyundai has found some sort of acceptance in the luxury side of things.
  • bobadbobad Posts: 1,587
    I say that there is a lot more to a 'luxury' car than that nice leather, wood, electronic gar-bage etc. It's more about how the car is perceived, and on that basis, my contention is something called a Hyundai can never be a luxury car regardless of how 'nice' it is.

    You just described a prestige or cult car perfectly. Luxury is not just a perception, it's a measurable reality.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    What's in a name?

    I think Hyundai has found enough people that sit inside the Genesis and find it plenty luxurious for them.

    Whether it's classified as a luxury car or not probably doesn't matter a whole lot to those buyers.

    Equus will indeed be interesting to watch because it'll be a much smaller volume car than the Genesis is, and not the screaming bargain, either.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Here is a shortcut to the Ody vs. Sienna thread:

    http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f0cafef.ef353cb/5035#MSG5035

    Those are currently the only 2 minivans that offer 8 passenger seating. The Ody is really more of a 7+1, with a bridge between the two captain's chairs, while the Sienna actually offers 3 individual seats in the middle row.

    I have an 8 passenger Sienna and we really like it.

    A diesel Sprinter might be appealing to me if I had to carry as many as 15, though.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,686
    It's more about how the car is perceived, ...

    OK. I, and many others, perceive the Genesis sedan to be a luxury car. Hence it is. It is routinely compared in the automotive press to other luxury cars. That is another sign that it is perceived as a luxury car.

    The reason you don't perceive the Genesis sedan as a luxury car is because you don't believe Hyundai should be producing luxury cars at this time. Hence if the Genesis sedan were a luxury car, it would blow that position out of the water.

    To me, a car is what I perceive it to be, not what others perceive it to be. I am the one paying for it and driving it. If you and others want to be dictated to by the rest of the world as to what you drive, that's up to you.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    Luxury is not just a perception, it's a measurable reality.
    I misstated my post perhaps - maybe I should have phrased this that " it's also about how a car is perceived...." So it needs to be BOTH. The reality part of a luxury car anybody can do - we sure can option the heck out of pretty much anything with whatever features and/or options that could generally be some sort of 'measure' of what a luxury car should be - the perception part of it, however is a different story.
    And yes, carolinabob, a luxury car must also be one from a mfgr with at least some prestige. A good example of this is Lincoln , a traditional American luxury brand, that is losing its place in the luxury market. As rebadged Fords the cars are simply losing as least some of that prestige while still having many of those other more 'measurable' qualifications
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    you don't believe Hyundai should be producing luxury cars at this time.
    No, not really - I don't believe they are - at least not with that label. A Hyundai Genesis could out option a Rolls and still not be a luxury car. A Genesis, however, if it were to become its own badge separate from Hyundai, would have a good chance, IMO - but this is not the way Hyundai has chosen to market or sell it.
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Posts: 1,491
    Both sides do have a point about luxury Hyundai.

    On one hand:
    Genesis is a near luxo entry, basically IMO Hyundai's test model, to warm the market up for Equus. And once you look over the Equus' err, uh, not so attractive (okay, ugly) sheetmetal, it's actually a really nice car. Soft ride, tankersize inside, nice materials...

    OTOH:
    Like captain2, I'm also concerned with Hyundai's attempt. The $50k+ market is different from the 40k market, and value means less there. With so many competitors offering similar performance and features, Equus will have a hard time competing with the likes of Infiniti, Lexus, and the Germans.
    Second problem is image, luxury market in US is very image concious, and as mentioned before by others, Hyundai's decision to market Equus as Hyundai is akin to VW Phaeton IMO.

    I'm no market expert, but this time I do think Hyundai's rushing it a bit. I thought the same aboutr Genesis until Hyundai announced that Gen will be a near luxocar.

    Is Equus a luxury car? Yes, no doubt about it. Is Hyundai ready to market it in US? I doubt it, but time will tell.
  • bobadbobad Posts: 1,587
    I'm no market expert, but this time I do think Hyundai's rushing it a bit. I thought the same aboutr Genesis until Hyundai announced that Gen will be a near luxocar.

    Rushing what a bit?

    I don't think a car manufacturer has ever been criticized for getting a good product to market too quickly.

    Do you think Hyundai should slow down and gradually ramp up their quality, or improve and market it as quickly as possible? I think the latter. It's impossible to improve cars too fast or sell them at too low a price. But I'm just a consumer, so what do I know? ;)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I'm not sure Infiniti has done all that well.

    The G sedan and coupe are successful in the near-luxury market, but the M (good as it is, I like 'em) hasn't really taken off and the flagship Q tried 3 times and failed, and was finally cancelled.

    I doubt Hyundai will do any worse than that. The Genesis is spanking the M. The Equus, we'll see, but the Q failed, so it shouldn't be hard to beat.
  • In my Humble opinion, Captain2 you are agonizing on the the technical terms, lets take a look at the whole picture....
    Hyundai was thought to be going in the wrong direction when the Genesis was announced. "No one will pay more then $30k for a Hyundai !!!" . Well the fact is they are selling the Genesis @ $38k for the 4.6 liter V8 . So now they are gonna try to sell a car for GASP !!! $60K ....."No One will Pay $60k for a mere Hyundai".
    Not only will people pay $60k for a Hyundai it is my opinion that they will be able to command close to $80k for a car in the next five years. Hyundai does not need to follow the lead of Toyota or Nissan. While a lot of people are brand conscience they are a lot who are not. People with money like to get good deals as well and Hyundai will always position themselves as a Good Value for the dollar. With the strong Warranty many people will look at Hyundai. It does not matter if you call the car a luxury car or not. As long as it has the creature comforts that the competitors are offering at a value they will sell.
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