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Comments
So what is the middle para saying in English? (LOL) When I used to analyze NDI results (non destruct inspection) for F4E fighter aircraft engines, we would do what you listed but on a spectrum analyzer combined with the technical order(thick) and procedures for the analysis.
In theory, with the right data and information, you can predict with pretty good certainty the wear patterns of key components and of course their life cycle replacement times and values.
This is of course the nitty gritty of why we use synthetic oil. The spectre of lower wear and hence lower cost, due to superior lubrication and or longer oil change intervals.
there is so much miss understanding about what is or is not a true full synth.. here is a discussion about i had with a guy named tim on my forum about how to tell what kind of base oil (synth or mineral) is being used.
*****************************
do u know how to tell from the tech data sheet what kind of base oil is used?.. often times the flash point shown on the tech data sheets gives and indication of what base oil is used.
basic naphthenic flashpoint 350-370..
naph/parhf,mix called paraffinic, flashpoint 410..
100%pure paraffin base flashpoint 475-500..
pao synth flashpoint 495-525..
ok, now u have a base of flash points for the type of base oil now look at the flash point on your oils,
AMSOIL 100% Synthetic 10W-30 Motor Oil (ATM)..Flash Point °C (°F) (ASTM D 92) ..230 (446)
now taking that into consideration, that shows to fall somewhere in the 100% pure paraffin base flash point. ok, that means it's not a full synth.. it has a blend of sorts, cause if it was a full synth it would be higher flash point,..
here's one.. SynLube™ over 500°F (260°C)
now that shows pure synth. cost is around 25.00 per gallon.
mobil tri synth Flash Point, ASTM D 92, °C (°F).. 243 (470).. it too most likely doesn't have a pure full synth base oil.
ok, schaeffers full synth..Flash Point °F/°C (ASTM D-92) 465°/240.5° .. it too, isn't totally a full synth without some mix.
so point being, don't fall into the trap thinking it's nothing more than a full synth with no other mix.. out of all of these posted, synlube seems to qualify as the only true full synth and i suspect with out looking at the flashpoint of castrol, it too is not a true full synth.
*********************
bob in jville
Member STLE
Lubricant Specialist
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com
We don't really know (I dont) what the flash point of the Synthetic Ester or Alkylated Aromatic is in Mobil 1's formula. Its likely they affect the final outcome of flash point. Also since Mobil is by far the largest maker of PAO's in the world it is unlikely that the savings of putting some carrier oils for the additive package (which I doubt they do) would affect the price. I'm guessing that Mobil charges Synlube well under 10$ per gallon of PAO. I can say this because I saw wholesale prices for Exxon Synthetic oil when I worked for a living (before they merged with Mobil)
I can't find the quote but in my extensive research during slow Xmas -- New Years shifts the documentation indicated that there is always a small portion of conventional oil put into a synthetic to act as a carrier for all of the additives. PAO does not absorb detergents, dispersants, seal conditioners and other things that help the oil act as a cleaning agent. Now I wouldn't be surprized if this was a hydrocracked (synthesized) aromatic, and therefore of much better quality.
Esters are also added for seal conditioning and heat dispersal. From what I found most Jet engine oils are mainly esters because of their ability to withstand the incredible heat of a jet engine.
So the addition of some conventional actually improves the oil over a plain PAO.
Mr. Detailer, Gee, I wish that they had info on a polyol ester ... like Redline.
As for Mobil 1, the guy (chemical engineer) who alerted me to the fact that Valvoline was cheapening their mix and posted it on their MSDS sheets said that Mobil pulled some technical detail and he suspects they'll be doing the same thing. But if Mobil 1 was mostly PAO, some ester and a TRACE of something I'd still call it a legitimate synthetic formula.
What I'm afraid of is these large oil manufacturers diluting all their PAO formulas with a seious amount (30-50%+) of hydrocracked petroleum oil. That's just misleading ... and since they'll probably leave their price the same, it's also a rip-off.
adc100, did Redline ever get back to you regarding seal swelling when using their oils?
--- Bror Jace
You mentioned in another post that Ford really only wants their vehicles to go no more than 100K to 150K. They would prefer it to go less but can't take the statistical chance that some may fail too close to the warranty and either they(ford) will have to pay or the customer will be too dis-satisfied to buy their product again.
But I have a Mazda with fussy seals so this spring I'm going to try the hydrocracked "synthetic". I am currently thinking of 1 quart Synpower with 3 quarts of Maxlife.
I am not sure of the "bang for the buck" consequence, but if I had fussy seals, I'd get them retorqued and/or changed, whether or not I used conventional or synthetic oil.
The additives that most motor oils (even synthetics) need will effect the final flash point of the formula ... as well as the pour point, for that matter. These include acid neutralizers, anti-foaming agents, anti-wear compounds, viscosity improvers, seal conditioners and probably a few other things. So, even a lubricant which is legitimately "synthetic" is going to have to be contaminated by good, useful additives which most likely affect a change in the flash point.
For example, Redline's street oils have a flash point right around 500F. Some of the lighter ones are just under this mark while the heavier weights are just above it (503F). If you look at their race oils which have fewer additives (significantly fewer detergents, no corrosion inhibitors or viscosity improvers) only the ultra-light 'qualifying' oils go below the 500F barrier while their 40 weight race oil has a flashpoint of 527F! >8^O
I just don't expect ANY street oil to have a flash point identical to its base stock.
So, while I'm always on the lookout for an analytical system that would allow me to determine who's cheating with regard to their "100% synthetic" formula(s), I feel this one is inconclusive. <:^(
--- <b>Bror Jace
PS - As for your blend of Synpower and Max-Life, my friend who was a serious synthetic guy like myself has a few high-mileage Hondas and he has switched EVERYTHING he owns over to Max Life. He likes it that much. It doesn't matter whether the car had dino or synthetic earlier in their lives, they're all chugging Max-Life (hydrocracked crude) now.
Unless you are using leftover OLD Synpower (100%, pre-dilution), I don't think it's worth blending.
I have e-mailed them a number of times with little, less important questions and each time I got a short, but satisfactory response.
"I'm leery of the information you got. Although I wouldn't be surprised if (Mobil tries) to pull a fast one also. It's the same principle that almost all companies take. The most important thing is the profit of the company and not the welfare of the customer. I am not faulting that principle-just accepting it."
Well, the information I got came from a chemist who used to work for an oil company. Like our friend Tom he's kept a little of his background a mystery and won't say too much about it. He sent me the text of one of Valvoline's MSDS sheets and right on there they admit that they are using a high-percentage of hydrocracked crude in their Synpower "100% synthetic" formula. Hey, at least they are honest. But feel free to look it up yourself. It's not their "Dordrecht" formula which is made in Germany and is sold only to the European market. That particular formula still seems to be 100% PAO (or reasonably close to 100%).
As for Mobil fooling around with their Mobil 1 "synthetic" formula, that was merely his speculation. I apologize if I did not make that clear the first time. As for technical data they are now withholding, I'm pretty sure he was talking about their MSDS sheets ... which I'm not too familiar with.
Anyway, If I were Mobil, I'd be awfully irritated that everyone else seems to be selling cheaply produced hydrocracked crude and selling it for $4.50 per quart retail ... the same price as a 100% PAO formula. Besides us complaining, most people are blissfully ignorant as to what's going on with synthetic lubricants. The financial pressure for everyone else in the industry to follow suit is just too strong. I think Mobil did the right thing in taking Castrol to court over this but the oil industry really screwed the pooch when they failed to properly define the term "synthetic". If they did this in the first place, we wouldn't be in the position we are in now.
If I were still using PAO oils, I'd be calling Shell and Chevron to see if their PAO formula has been altered/diluted then find an on-line retailer willing to ship in quantity. As it is, I'm awfully content with Redline.
"You mentioned in another post that Ford really only wants their vehicles to go no more than 100K to 150K. They would prefer it to go less but can't take the statistical chance that some may fail too close to the warranty and either they (Ford) will have to pay or the customer will be too dissatisfied to buy their product again."
In defense of these auto companies, I don't think they are merely trying to get their customer out of the warranty period ... especially with major driveline components. I know some die-hard Ford people but I can't imagine of them would buy more than a couple vehicles from that company if the car croaked at 60, 80 or even 100,000 miles if they know they maintained it by the book (owner's manual). The same goes for every other auto manufacturer as well. But, I'm sure they don't mind if the motor croaks or is running so poorly it won't pass emissions at 160,000 miles.
As has been said, I don't mind spending a little more on something that's absolutely vital to the engines functioning ... especially when I know I run it hard.
--- Bror Jace
"You mentioned in another post that Ford really only wants their vehicles to go no more than 100K to 150K. They would prefer it to go less but can't take the statistical chance that some may fail too close to the warranty and either they(ford) will have to pay or the customer will be too dis-satisfied to buy their product again. "
To me, this is THE MOST IMPORTANT POINT when playing old maid in new or used car selection. Obviously the longer the better.
This statistical specification is a company secret guarded more carefully at times, that our most sensitive and critical national security secrets.
I am considering switching from Mobil 1 to Red Line. My concern is the possible interaction of esters with seal materials (shrinkage as I recall-the opposite of PAO's). Pure esters are detremental to most seal materials. How has Redline Overcome this seal issue? I do extended oil changes and keep cars for a long time.
Thanks
Al Conrad
This is the answer:
The Red Line lubricants offer very good seal characteristics, the seal swell is comparable to a petroleum oil. The esters offer good seal comparability. The compatibility with seals is determined by the base stock and additive packages used.
Thank you for your interest in Red Line Oil.
bla..bla..bla....
I guess thats the type of answer I expected.
Prior to hearing this, I'd be really reluctant to use the stuff on a new car. With my faith in mass-market synthetics waining, I like to know there are alternatives.
--- Bror Jace
You'd think that with all the resources at the disposal of large companies that someone would have done an empirical study of ENGINE WEAR. After all, that is the really important data. Of 2500+ posts, there's a lot of speculation and conspiracy theories (dilution, Ford engines, et al), but no hard data. I seem to remember Mobil doing a study using their synthetic in an engine after 200,000 (simulated?) miles and reported all parts within spec. I'm sure it wasn't the under severe service definition - you know, have to make the oil look good, right? I guess what I really want to see is a side-by-side comparison of mineral oil and synthetic oil in identical engines under identical conditions. Seems like a simple a obvious comparison, so why haven't we seen it? Do the synthetic makers not want us to see that the difference between synthetic and dino are negligible under most conditions? If the results did show that synthetic was far superior, then, what a powerful marketing tool for makers of synthetic oil and justification for the 4X price! Despite the lack of hard evidence Mobil has me as a customer of their '1' product.
Then, there's always the issue of extended drain intervals, which is why a lot of people choose synthetics. They can get the same wear protection as mineral oil at twice or thrice the interval between changes.
Ok, not to forget my original inquiry: any info on the Exxon synthetic? Ex/Mob merged, but did their technology?
There are at least two SAE publications SAE 951026, 981444 which were mentioned in several posts above that compares syn to conventional in both over-the-road and "Sequence Testing". The Sequence Tests are the same used to certify motor oils but they are run at double, tripple, and quadruple times. Conventional oils fail way quicker than syn oils here-obviously. In the 200K tests which were simulated driving cycles-I assume in labs-it included simulated 50K city driving and 150K highway driving. The syn oil showed virtually "no wear" while the conventional oil showed significant wear in some areas. These papers are available at SAE.com for 10 bucks each. Even though it was published by SAE the research paper was written by Mobil's research team. I'm guessing that the facts in it are true. Its basically the research that went into Mobils development of different generations of Mobil 1. Names of competetor oils are not mentioned.
As far as why oil companies don't promote their oils (also discussed above)? There is no incentive to prove syn is better than their conventional products. Their conventional products/Jiffy Lubes make them more money. Syns merely fill a market that needs to be filled. And its really in part an overflow from industrial requirements. To Joe Sixpack a bottle of oil is a bottle of oil- he simply doesn't care. Every 3K to Jiffy Lube and he' happy.
bror: I also expected that answer. Still I am uncomfortable with long term use. Like you-I do want to have alternatives when its obvious that my favorite Mobil 1 (not claiming its the best) changes. I do though, believe for now that they intend (Mobil) to be the standard of comercially available syn oils and will not downgrade their formula. We'll say. I don't ride around on a turnip truck. If I'm convinced they changed, I'll bolt- probably become an Amsoil dealer-again and switch back. They have an outlet 1/2 hour away and I can pick it up without paying shipping and get dealer's price. Sorry for the length of post.
Al
Seems that Mobil One oil 5-30W would do nicely. I don't know what 70-75 mph equates to RPM wise but the engine tends to wear less, if you keep acceleration less brisk and to keep the rpms NTE 75% of redline. I personally do 15k interval changes with 5-30W or 10-30w Mobil One. I have combined mileage in excess of 500k using Mobil One. Sludge is a total non issue. (On TLC's)
It probably would be neat also if you used synthetic trans fluid also.
So maybe I should do reg oil @ 3K intervals until warranty up - I don't plan to by extended warranty so would go to 36K and then switch to syn oil. Make sense?
I worked for a wholesaler for years that used Mobil 1 in delivery vans with 15K intervals. Never had a oil related problems, all city driving, traded vans at 150K. Question - does 90% interstate speeds ( 70mph = 2400rpm ) mean longer vs shorter miles between changes with Mobil 1?
CPS Number 235200 235109 235117 235118 235120 235119
MSDS Number 6711 6711 6711 6711 6711 6711
API Gravity 30.6 30.6 30.7 29 28.9 28
Viscosity, Kinematic
cSt at 40°C
cSt at 100°C
70
11.1
55
8.1
68
8.9
105
12.1
146
14.9
225
18.4
Viscosity, Cold Crank, °C/Poise -20/31.5 -25/64.4 — — — —
Viscosity Index 150 109 104 104 102 98
Flash Point, °C(°F) 226(439) 221(430) 238(460) 242(468) 250(482) 254(489)
Pour Point, °C(°F) -42(-44) -32(-26) -30(-22) -31(-24) -33(-27) -31(-24)
Sulfated Ash, wt % 1.34 1.18 1.18 1.35 1.35 1.35
Base Number, ASTM D 2896 10.1 9.2 9.2 10.2 10.2 10.2
Phosphorus, wt % 0.126 0.114 0.114 0.116 0.116 0.116
Zinc, wt % 0.140 0.127 0.127 0.127 0.127 0.127
Typical test data are average values only. Minor variations which do not affect product performance are to be expected in normal manufacturing.
This is chevron delo 10w-30 look at the pour point and the flash point this oil seems very close to a synthetic for only 1.60 a Q 5W-20 5W-30 10W-30 10W-40 20W-50 30 40
CPS Number 220135 220013 220019 220059 220060 220002 220011
MSDS Number 8407 6717 6717 6717 6717 6717 6717
API Gravity 32.2 32.4 30.5 30.8 31.9 29.6 29
Viscosity, Kinematic
cSt at 40°C
cSt at 100°C
49.2
8.6
66.1
11
74.8
10.8
98.9
14.4
174.4
19.1
78
10.3
123
14
Viscosity, Cold Crank,
°C/Poise
-30/53
-30/63
-25/64
-25/64
-15/80
—
—
Viscosity Index 154 159 135 148 124 114 112
Flash Point, °C(°F) 224(435) 224(435) 234(453) 234(453) 250(482) 240(464) 250(482)
Pour Point, °C(°F) -43(-45) -43(-45) -38(-36) -38(-36) -35(-31) -30(-22) -24(-11)
Sulfated Ash, wt % 0.86 0.86 0.86 0.86 0.86 0.86 0.86
Base Number, ASTM D 2896 7.1 7.1 7.1 7.1 7.1 7.1 7.1
Phosphorus, wt % 0.098 0.098 0.098 0.098 0.098 0.098 0.098
Zinc, wt % 0.109 0.109 0.109 0.109 0.109 0.109 0.109
Typical test data are average values only. Minor variations which do not affect product performance are to be expected in normal manufacturing.
Source: PCMO-20
This is the chevron supreme motor oils look at the pour point and the flash point theirs only about 20Deg difference between mobile or anyother synthetic product except for amsoil or red line can antone here see a 3.00 doller difference between these oils . What I meen is a 3 buck a Quart difference in price between these dino oils verse synthetic. Tony
LONGER intervals to be sure!! Also, if 70mph= 2400 rpm what is redline on your 4 banger?
Let me see, 36k warranty miles might be what: 3/4 to almost a year given your targeted driving? Shoot if you drive that much, you'd probably would not even have time to leave it at the dealer for the inevitable warranty work! (LOL) Also, to be fair, conventional oil has seen GREAT improvement. I would have no qualms in going the normal duty interval (check your manuals, BUT 7500 is what I remember?) If you decide that walking the warranty line is what you want to do.
As an aside, I would as a minimum, stay with the OEM oil filter. Ask them if they will give you a discount if you buy a 10 filter pack, brick. You should be using between 3 and 4 a yr with your 15k intervals. If you do decide to use a so called premium oil filter: BEWARE.
I might add that I do the 15k oil change interval or shall I say more technically, the dealer does the 15k interval, and has stated to me that they would honor ANY engine warranty claim short of me draining the crankcase and running the machine. So you may want to ask them. I always did a 500-1000 mile oil change (conventional oil comes factory provided) then switch over to synthetic (in my case Mobil One) My warranty gave up the ghost at 36k just like yours will and I have not bought any extented warranty service contracts for any of the Toyotas I have had or have. (6)
To amplify on your wholesale business truck fleet intervals. To me that is one of the greatests strengths of the superiority of the synthetic oil in that it gives you the flexibility to go longer between oil change intervals.
As the last aside, I am also following a 15k oil change interval on a 2001 Chevrolet Corvette Z06. Again I did a first oil change 1600 miles. (this was a bit weird for the oil coming out look like it came out of the bottle)
(you will not guess the brand oil and rating? Yup Mobil One 5-30W)
8.6
66.1
11
74.8
10.8
98.9
14.4
174.4
19.1
78
10.3
123
14
Is the first data the synthetic or what??
Anyway these numbers don't really tell the whole story. They tell nothing how the conventional will meet API Sequence IIIE, VE tests run at double, tripple or quadruple time durations. Thats where the $3 difference comes in IMHO.
Do most Toyota dealers offer to do 15k changes with Mobil 1 or do you have to build a relationship with service dept first?
Ok then, that means that the 75% of redline = 4875 RPM. Funny they should govern it at the point that I had posted earlier.
No, they all of course would like the 3k oil interval. But yes, I have been going to this particular dealership for a while.
Later,
Al
During the Warranty period get it changed at Toyota dealers exclusively. I would be surprized if they didn't have a synthetic available if you asked.
There is a small but significant occurrence in Toyota engines of sludging. check out the recent statements by bobistheoilguy on the engine sludge discussion group here on Edmunds. They found that after 4,000 miles with any type of oil that there was sheering which thinned the oil to lighter grades. If it sludges it will cost of 3 to 6 thousand to fix it.
Synthetic offers great protection, but on that particular engine I don't believe I would go above 7500 even on synthetic.
I don't know how much to read into that, though, as the engie probably had little or no load on it. If it DID have heavy/varying load, i'm impressed. I do know of a guy with a car with the same engine who tested in new factory compresion spec at 250,000 miles, with the long change interval and synthetic, but he had 95% highway miles.
dave
The point to me is that it is a "scientific repeatable" experiment, as such it is a baseline. The way you or I drive for example might not be repeatable or even applicable to the statistical middle of how the driving population really drives.
http://mobil1.com/index.jsp and get some ideas.
I would also concur. If you are married to the 3-4k oil change interval I not only would stay with conventional oil, but also be prepared to pay more than synthetic oil changes with 15k intervals. So using synthetic oil with 3-4k intervals you are guaranteed 2 things for sure:
1. superior protection 2. much higher prices than you need to 3. Much higher prices while you throw away 3-4x more useful life if you change synthetic at 3-4k.
So conventional oil: 5 changes @ 3k per change @ 30 dollars=150/15,000 miles =.01 cents lubrication per mile (my local dealer's price)
So synthetic oil: 1 change @15k @ 18 labor, oil filter 3, 3.5 per qt x8 qts(28)= 49/15000= .003267 cents lubrication per mile (my local dealer's price, I provide oil and oil filter, they change the oil)
So if you dont mind paying app 3 x more per mile in lube costs, that is a distinct consumer choice.
--- Bror Jace
Thanks to the people at API and SAE, the term "synthetic" doesn't really mean much anymore. Highly processed (hydrocracked) mineral oil is now called synthetic by a growing number of companies.
Using this definition, most "SL" classification oils and I believe ALL 5W20 formulas are at least semi-synthetic. I don't know of a real, full-synthetic 5W20 oil even exists yet ... if it ever will.
I wouldn't worry about it.
--- Bror Jace