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Mercedes-Benz E-Class Sedans
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-- mb_newbie
Also, the center compartment door that opens up with a butterfly hinge was already broken on the car in the showroom. Anyone have this problem too?
Thanks!
I can think of several very different things people mean when they speak of “quality”:
1. Initial defects on delivery of the car, including both malfunctions and “fit and finish” issues. (The J.D. Powers survey often measures this.)
2. Reliability. Shorter term day-in-day-out lack of problems requiring attention. This is a first-few-years-of-ownership issue and is usually part of what people mean by “quality.”
3. Durability, both cosmetically and mechanically, over many years of ownership. Durability is relevant to everything from interior leather and vinyl trim to major drive train components.
4. Appearance of quality (for example the touch, texture, and visual impression of interior components), which is often a subjective judgement. Expensiveness of appearance is a part of this judgement for many people and includes styling, parts count, and ornamentation (like chrome bezels on instruments and switches). People often associate “expensive” appearance with cost, quality, and durability.
5. Mechanical feel during operation of components like switches, doors, latches, etc.
Having owned several MB’s over the past 25 years, and having participated (through my own and friend’s ownership) in most other German and Japanese makes, I have a sense of where MB has been going. In terms of 1 and 2 (initial defects and reliability) I think the MB cars have improved hugely over the past 25 years despite the monstrous increase in systems complexity. In terms of 3 (durability) I think they are about as they have always been, which is to say very good. On the two latter items (appearance of quality and mechanical feel) the current cars are criticized as having “cheap” interiors, but they seem just fine to me. Until the current E (211) car (and to some extent the S and CL), they haven’t been “fancy” and expensive looking in the Japanese idiom that everyone seems to be chasing. I prefer the simpler, functional, relatively straight-forward look of the older E’s (124 and 210). The quality of interior materials in terms of durability is actually excellent. Look at a five year old MB’s compared to BMW’s and Lexuses of the same age. The BMW, particularly, looks badly worn, the Lexus somewhere between the MB and BMW. Until the new E car, the switchgear in the cars was also excellent: robust ball-bearing mounted rockers and plated contacts. The new E car significantly reduces the quality here and uses standard plates (with blanks when optional equipment is not ordered) to reduce the number of wood panel variations that must be made. But it looks fancier and the automotive press is touting MB’s return to quality interiors.
In terms of appearance of quality and expensiveness of appearance (4), I am surprised at how easily people fall for chrome, brushed chrome, and “matte metal” plastic: perhaps they are too young to remember the 1950’s, 60’s, and 70’s. In the older E car, the cut-outs in the wood around switches and panels had to be perfectly finished because the wood panel edges were visible. This is the expensive way to do things. In the new car, the switch panels either over-fit the cut-outs or chrome bezels are used to hide the edges. This is not my idea of quality, though it has been much more the approach of BMW and Lexus for several years.
On the subject of initial quality (1) and reliability (2), Consumer’s Union is probably the best source of information. Their data samples are large, and I believe the data is honestly tabulated. Over the past five years (in the 2001 Used Car Buying Guide), MB E-series and BMW 5-series show identical “reliability” ratings: for each manufacturer three years are average, two are above average. To mention a few comparable cars (190 inch four door sedans), the Audi A6 shows below average in all these same years (there is no data for 1997), the Volvo S80 below average in two years, average in one (the car debuted in 1999). Don’t forget that these tabulations do not account for the complexity of systems and options: A Toyota Corolla and S-Class are subjected to the same numerical formula. The only real stand-out for complex cars in these ratings is the large Lexus, which is a car with admirable build quality and quality of components. But the Lexus is simply in a different idiom from the German sedans and not, to me at least, an alternative.
So why is the MB more expensive than some of these other cars? I’m sure a small part of it is marketing. The amount of standard equipment is another (something MB is evening out with the 211 320E). The hidden content of the car (like oil analysis to determine service intervals and the very high quality of many components) is another. But the other big difference is in long-term durability in everything from the leather to the drive train. I recently heard a discussion about replacing the engine block in a 1994 BMW V-8, apparently a common issue in these cars. This kind of thing is simply unheard of in MB cars. I realize that those who lease a car for two or three years (much less the automotive press, whose idea of a “long term” experience is one year) may not be willing to pay for quality in this sense of the word. I am willing, and I think the cost penalty is relatively modest for the really satisfying long term experience an MB can provide.
So, are the various MB models less than perfect? To be sure. Has the quality been deteriorating? I don’t think that’s the case.
Maybe it is just that the Japanese have raised the reliability standards to the point that what was once acceptable is no longer acceptable?
Tonight they are having their yearly party to introduce the new models. I am going armed with a copy of the threads on the $500 discount if you order the DVD Nav system now. I hope they know about it and will do it.
I have the Nav system now in my C320 and it is the best money I ever spent. No more worrying, just do what she tells you (like my wife... lol) and you will get there.
I will let you know if they honor the discount.
The dealer that is advising driving "as fast as you want as long as you want" could probably add "without your seatbelt on" and not change the quality of his advice. The likelihood of damage might be low, but why take the chance?
M
I have 2 E-320s (1998 and 2001) and both provide me adequate power but I guess more is always better.
I still would be interested in EPA ratings of E320 and E500 if anyone has the information.
"If the EPA has not assigned a gas-guzzler fuel-economy rating for the model automobile you import, a rating must be independently determined. No tax is imposed on automobiles that have a combined fuel-economy rating of at least 22.5 miles per gallon."
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/info.shtml
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/26/4064.html
As for the cars ratings, I have seen information that states the E320 is 19-20 MPG City and 27-28 MPG Highway. The E500 is 16-17 MPG City and 23-24 MPG Highway. According to the computer in my car I am running right around 19 City for the E320, but I am only on my first tank of gas.
The formula is listed inside the first link I posted and the E 500 does fall in the $1000 Tax range. Also, if you price a car on the MB build your own site, it lists the tax on the summary page for the E500 but not the E320.
Hope this helps.
The new 540 (?545) will offer a 325-345HP V-8 similar to the 7 series. The new Lexus GS should have 350HP in the V-8 version. Nothing wrong with the new E500 as your choice but I am curious
to read your reasons.
They are showing 14 E500's in inventory in a price range of 58K to 70K.
They have 48 E class cars including about that many 02 E's, about 14 or 15 03 320E's, and several 03 wagons.
I am not a sales person for MB or HCC. But it seems to me that they might be negotiable given their inventory.
Just an FYI...
http://www.mercedes-benz.com/e/cars/e-class/betriebsanleitung/vertiefen/default.htm
Woe is me. I turned down a new 2001 E320 Wagon last June at $2k under invoice when MB was offering dealer incentives. Our Isuzu Trooper recently had a near fatal engine malfunction and I decided to look into the 2003 Wagon. Essentially the same as the 2001 and 2002, without the dealer incentives. The difference in price works out to about $7k more for a 2003 than the identically equiped 2001 I considered only 15 months ago. Can't wait to see what the sell the 2004's at next spring.
If anyone gets the chance to participate in this event, don't pass it up as it is well worth the time.
Wally
My .02 worth, Mark
Anyone have a similar package that can comment on how the new E500 feels in comparison?
I have a 2001 E320 (stock) and it doesn't feel numb to me, but that's just my opinion. If you want to feel numb, try a Lexus 300es. Tomorrow, I'm going for the "emotion" event and will post my impressions.
the 300 plus hp.
Instead of the scissor/jaw-type regulator I expected, I was faced with a single track cable-based regulator. I could easily see that the cable was loose, but I didn't know where it attached. So I drilled through 4 rivets to removed the whole assembly from the door. It turns out that the cable attaches to a metal clamp on the regulator itself, which was bent out of place. Not willing to take any chances, I went to the local Mercedes dealership to get the replacement part.
I was initially a pit puzzled when I was quoted $250, but it seems that the part of the pre-98 W210s comes with the electric motor, which was still working in my case. The parts clerk then got a regulator for a 98 without the motor, compared the two, deemed it a close enough fit, and told me to bring it back if I had any problems. His effort saved me $130. Claridges Mercedes in Fremont, CA, thank you very much !
Installation wasn't too bad, but I don't have too much experience with a riveter, so it took me a little longer. Overall, I spent about 4 hours on it, but mostly because I was overly careful trying not to damage the trim or the vehicle paint. Parts were about $121, and a pro would maybe take 1 to 2 hours to complete this job.
If you feel like doing it yourself, I could compile a more detailed list of steps. I hope this answers your question.
Have a nice weekend !
Are my eyes decieving me? This set up look very similar to the way many power radio antennas are driven.
Also is what you call a 'regualtor' the horizontal silverish bar that takes the window up and down?
Thanks again for the explanation!
The window has a small aluminum piece attached, which latches onto the plastic slider.
#1 Sport Pkg - I'm going for this. I like the wheels and trim.
#2 Pana Roof - Looks neat but will I use it? I never open the cover on my current sun roof. Either I open the roof (rarely) or it's closed. Solar based fans is neat. I wonder if it does much.
#3 Keyless go. I've never thought turning a key was a hassle. Do I want this? I think the start/stop button takes away from the interior.
#4 Seat options. Drive dynamic seats sounds like something I want. Thoughts? Does the Ventilated option work? Add any noise?
#5 I want the integrated phone. Others like it? How about the voice control?
#6 Interior Colors. I know it's personal. My thoughts are the black looks great but is too hot for where I live. The light tan, again looks great, but will show stains too easy. That leaves the blue or dark grey. I've seen the grey and it looks fine but I would like you thoughts on the blue.
Thanks for your help.
The 4-Matic performed flawlessly during snow last year. In particular, it kept me going in a heavy snowstorm during which quite a number of number of other cars got stuck trying to make it up grades or around bends. Combined with the ESP, which tends to kick in on slippery surfaces, it is very stable.
I believe the gas mileage penalty is about 1 mpg. Highway mileage will reach 22 mpg on a steady cruise.
(hundreds of them) from 1999 through 2000 can be had for low 30s to mid 30s, and E420s (much
fewer of them) are advertised in the low to mid 20s for 1995 through 1998s, and the E430s
(1998-2000) are from upper 20s to low to upper 30s, with very low mileage models in the lower
40s...most vehicles ranged from 20K miles to 50K miles, which I always thought was just
breaking in the engine on a Mercedes, whereas 50K on an American engine means its best days
are behind it...I did not realize that E420s and E430s could be had for that kind of money, I just
thought they were starting in the high 40s and going up from there...are there any specific red
flags to look for with a E420 or E430, as they seem to be just a E320 with a larger engine (is the 420 engine better or worse than the 430), what
option packages were available at the time (did they have xenon headlights standard, or were
sport suspensions optional, or any other packages) and would it be smart to consider a used
420/430 or should they be avoided altogether?...it just seems to make an MB more affordable than I originally believed, and if they really are good for 200K miles or more, this might be doable...example, 1999 E430, 49K miles, exc condition (subject to interpretation) $31,900; or 1998 E430, 49K miles, like new, $29,500...1997 E420, 52K miles, $23,800...are these cars ready for the boneyard, or are these
reasonable prices (asking prices, I might add), assuming the cars have not been wrecked?...does it
pay to go thru a dealer for Starmark certification (I had posted this earlier out of context) or just buy thru an owner?...are dealers negotiable on their used car prices, or do they hold firm???...thanks for any answers you can offer...
Well, the bad news... upon mild acceleration, in first and second gear... it makes a noise that sounds like a singer sewing machine... I took it back to the dealer the next morning and they said that they have had this before and that I should let the car break in... He said it was the lifters..???? Mercedes is aware of the problem but does not have a fix...
Has anyone else had this problem?