Mercedes-Benz E-Class Sedans

rayscar · October 2002

Thanks for the info. Hope you continue to enjoy your car. You can get stone interior with the sports package it will just have the birdseye trim instead of the burl. I have purchased many cars and no matter how excited I am I will take care to ensure I take care of the details. Good advice for people who may not have been through it before though. Take care and thanks.

mb_newbie · October 2002

My fault, I mix up the "interior" & the "wood colour". Mine (actually, my wife's) has charcoal interior.

-- mb_newbie

rayscar · October 2002

Thanks for the info. Hope you continue to enjoy your car. You can get stone interior with the sports package it will just have the birdseye trim instead of the burl. I have purchased many cars and no matter how excited I am I will take care to ensure I take care of the details. Good advice for people who may not have been through it before though. Take care and thanks.

patentman1 · October 2002

I checked out the new e-class at the dealer yesterday. It's a great looking car! When I sat in the driver's seat, I noticed that the leather felt kind of sticky. It felt almost like a vinyl coating was applied to it. I had to check the options list to make sure the seats were leather. The steering wheel felt the same way. Any feedback? Will it improve over time? Maybe I sat in a car with defective leather.

Also, the center compartment door that opens up with a butterfly hinge was already broken on the car in the showroom. Anyone have this problem too?

Thanks!

walto · October 2002

I am struck by how much talk there is of MBs deteriorating quality, and by where people get this information, and what different people mean by the phrase.

I can think of several very different things people mean when they speak of quality:

1. Initial defects on delivery of the car, including both malfunctions and fit and finish issues. (The J.D. Powers survey often measures this.)
2. Reliability. Shorter term day-in-day-out lack of problems requiring attention. This is a first-few-years-of-ownership issue and is usually part of what people mean by quality.
3. Durability, both cosmetically and mechanically, over many years of ownership. Durability is relevant to everything from interior leather and vinyl trim to major drive train components.
4. Appearance of quality (for example the touch, texture, and visual impression of interior components), which is often a subjective judgement. Expensiveness of appearance is a part of this judgement for many people and includes styling, parts count, and ornamentation (like chrome bezels on instruments and switches). People often associate expensive appearance with cost, quality, and durability.
5. Mechanical feel during operation of components like switches, doors, latches, etc.

Having owned several MBs over the past 25 years, and having participated (through my own and friends ownership) in most other German and Japanese makes, I have a sense of where MB has been going. In terms of 1 and 2 (initial defects and reliability) I think the MB cars have improved hugely over the past 25 years despite the monstrous increase in systems complexity. In terms of 3 (durability) I think they are about as they have always been, which is to say very good. On the two latter items (appearance of quality and mechanical feel) the current cars are criticized as having cheap interiors, but they seem just fine to me. Until the current E (211) car (and to some extent the S and CL), they havent been fancy and expensive looking in the Japanese idiom that everyone seems to be chasing. I prefer the simpler, functional, relatively straight-forward look of the older Es (124 and 210). The quality of interior materials in terms of durability is actually excellent. Look at a five year old MBs compared to BMWs and Lexuses of the same age. The BMW, particularly, looks badly worn, the Lexus somewhere between the MB and BMW. Until the new E car, the switchgear in the cars was also excellent: robust ball-bearing mounted rockers and plated contacts. The new E car significantly reduces the quality here and uses standard plates (with blanks when optional equipment is not ordered) to reduce the number of wood panel variations that must be made. But it looks fancier and the automotive press is touting MBs return to quality interiors.

In terms of appearance of quality and expensiveness of appearance (4), I am surprised at how easily people fall for chrome, brushed chrome, and matte metal plastic: perhaps they are too young to remember the 1950s, 60s, and 70s. In the older E car, the cut-outs in the wood around switches and panels had to be perfectly finished because the wood panel edges were visible. This is the expensive way to do things. In the new car, the switch panels either over-fit the cut-outs or chrome bezels are used to hide the edges. This is not my idea of quality, though it has been much more the approach of BMW and Lexus for several years.

On the subject of initial quality (1) and reliability (2), Consumers Union is probably the best source of information. Their data samples are large, and I believe the data is honestly tabulated. Over the past five years (in the 2001 Used Car Buying Guide), MB E-series and BMW 5-series show identical reliability ratings: for each manufacturer three years are average, two are above average. To mention a few comparable cars (190 inch four door sedans), the Audi A6 shows below average in all these same years (there is no data for 1997), the Volvo S80 below average in two years, average in one (the car debuted in 1999). Dont forget that these tabulations do not account for the complexity of systems and options: A Toyota Corolla and S-Class are subjected to the same numerical formula. The only real stand-out for complex cars in these ratings is the large Lexus, which is a car with admirable build quality and quality of components. But the Lexus is simply in a different idiom from the German sedans and not, to me at least, an alternative.

So why is the MB more expensive than some of these other cars? Im sure a small part of it is marketing. The amount of standard equipment is another (something MB is evening out with the 211 320E). The hidden content of the car (like oil analysis to determine service intervals and the very high quality of many components) is another. But the other big difference is in long-term durability in everything from the leather to the drive train. I recently heard a discussion about replacing the engine block in a 1994 BMW V-8, apparently a common issue in these cars. This kind of thing is simply unheard of in MB cars. I realize that those who lease a car for two or three years (much less the automotive press, whose idea of a long term experience is one year) may not be willing to pay for quality in this sense of the word. I am willing, and I think the cost penalty is relatively modest for the really satisfying long term experience an MB can provide.

So, are the various MB models less than perfect? To be sure. Has the quality been deteriorating? I dont think thats the case.

rayscar · October 2002

Wow, thanks walto. You obviously spent a lot of time and thought putting that together. Thanks for trying to give us the benefit of your long-term experience and for setting the trolls straight on this site!

jstyle · October 2002

I have an E500 coming in early December. I've driven the E320 at the dealer but have been unable to get over when they have an E500 to drive. The salesman told me there is a tremendous difference in the ride quality and handling in the E500, it's much better than the E320. Anyone driven them both and have an opinion?

sddlw · October 2002

I do not contribute here very often, but my wife and I have owned 3 MBs over the last 5 years. I think the build, fit and finsh, engineering and safty of MB is far superior to most other cars. The driving experience is fantastic and the prestige of the 3-point star is undeniable. The one single aspect of MB quality that I find as a negative is parts reliability.

Maybe it is just that the Japanese have raised the reliability standards to the point that what was once acceptable is no longer acceptable?

rayscar · October 2002

In this issue on page 119 there is a piece just on the 2003 E500. It's very favorable. 0-60 is 5.8 sec! Read all about it.

sovren · October 2002

Got the word today that my E320 is due in on Oct 24th.

Tonight they are having their yearly party to introduce the new models. I am going armed with a copy of the threads on the $500 discount if you order the DVD Nav system now. I hope they know about it and will do it.

I have the Nav system now in my C320 and it is the best money I ever spent. No more worrying, just do what she tells you (like my wife... lol) and you will get there.

I will let you know if they honor the discount.

stvir · October 2002

Took delivery of my first MB on Sep 30: Bordeaux Red, E2 Package, E5 Package, CD Changer and Wood/Leather Steering Wheel. Paid MSRP as dealer refuses to budge. The Sales Rep did agree to provide a couple of accesories "No Charge." The car is immaculate in terms of fit and finish. So far, I've driven it for over 200 miles and it is performing as expected: flawless. Time will tell if there are any quality issues later on. Hopefully, not ...

habitat1 · October 2002

It seems I've been in a similar situation with my last three car purchases and the advice I have gotten is similar - DO NOT use the cruise control for the first 1,000 miles and vary the speed / engine RPM's regularly. Take side roads in-between highway stretches, if possible. Also, avoid hard acceleration that will push the engine speed to near red-line.

The dealer that is advising driving "as fast as you want as long as you want" could probably add "without your seatbelt on" and not change the quality of his advice. The likelihood of damage might be low, but why take the chance?

r1_97 · October 2002

Sunday we go for the E-motion event. I have a 98 and '01 E320s. I'll report of my reactions to the new Es. I plan on replacing the '98 but I still love it an am in no hurry unless I see a big improvement in the new E. I live in North San Diego and do about 90% in city and 10% freeway driving. I never go over 80mph on the freeway and don't see why I would want the 500, but, I plan to test it anyway. I'm concerned about the apparent HP race going on. Oil dependency bothers me. Does anyone else feel this way?

et610 · October 2002

What is the difference between the E320 and E500 gas mileage? I'm not sure exactly but I think it is very close.

gmacosta · October 2002

in response to HASPELBEIN, message #6967 how much was the fix? i have that exact problem happen a couple weeks ago. waiting for my coming oil change to get that fix on my next visit to mechanic. sounds like i wrote that message. your info would be greatly appreciated.

merc1 · October 2002

Thanks for sharing that. You've touched on some of the things I couldn't readily explain during the many "discussions" I've had here about Mercedes. It seems that plastic, leather and wood that's "fancy" is what the press wants in everything today and Mercedes must feel like they're in a bind because that was never what they were about.

M

jdhoang · October 2002

I ordered a 320 w/E2 and E5 package, and was wondering if I should have ordered the leather option as well. I heard leather inserts were standard. I would appreciate any opinion from anyone who has either. Thanks.

haspelbein · October 2002

My current approach is to handle it myself. I will probably take off the door trim this weekend to see what actually happenend. I will definitely keep you posted on what I will encounter.

r1_97 · October 2002

I don't know the milage diff between the 320 and 500 but I believe that the gas guzzler tax applies only to the 500.

I have 2 E-320s (1998 and 2001) and both provide me adequate power but I guess more is always better.

brightness · October 2002

and what price is anticipated?

et610 · October 2002

I do know that the gas guzzler tax is based on HP and not MPG rating. I understand that anything over 300 HP pays the tax.

I still would be interested in EPA ratings of E320 and E500 if anyone has the information.

john01 · October 2002

Gas guzzler tax is based on the fuel economy, not the horsepower. From the US customs website:

"If the EPA has not assigned a gas-guzzler fuel-economy rating for the model automobile you import, a rating must be independently determined. No tax is imposed on automobiles that have a combined fuel-economy rating of at least 22.5 miles per gallon."

stvir · October 2002

My sales rep does not think that the premium leather was a worthwhile option to order. If you've seen the leather inserts (center portion of seats), and compare it with the non-leather portion of the upholstery, you really can't tell the difference. Someone on this board commented that the inserts are a bit 'sticky'. IMHO, the standard leather insert feels and looks good.

mbe2003 · October 2002

I believe the tax applies only on the 500, I did not pay it on my 320. It is based on MPG according to these links:

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/info.shtml

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/26/4064.html

As for the cars ratings, I have seen information that states the E320 is 19-20 MPG City and 27-28 MPG Highway. The E500 is 16-17 MPG City and 23-24 MPG Highway. According to the computer in my car I am running right around 19 City for the E320, but I am only on my first tank of gas.

The formula is listed inside the first link I posted and the E 500 does fall in the $1000 Tax range. Also, if you price a car on the MB build your own site, it lists the tax on the summary page for the E500 but not the E320.

Hope this helps.

rayscar · October 2002

You are right mbe2003. The tax only applies to the E500 and it is $1K. It just missed not having to pay the tax. I think I saw 16/24 for the 500.

lex10 · October 2002

In response to jstyle, I've test driven and compared both models a couple of times as I was debating on whether to buy the E500 or E320 and finally decided on E500 which will be arriving some time in December. In my opinion there is a big difference in performance between the two models. The E500 is much quicker, has the nice exhaust sound, and you can feel the torque. The car just wants to go! The E500 also comes with the adjustable suspension which really makes a difference. The car rides totally different in the sport mode setting.

valueguy · October 2002

I see you drive a 1997 BMW 5 series. Why not wait one more year and compare the new 5 and GS with the new E?

The new 540 (?545) will offer a 325-345HP V-8 similar to the 7 series. The new Lexus GS should have 350HP in the V-8 version. Nothing wrong with the new E500 as your choice but I am curious
to read your reasons.

footie · October 2002

If you folks don't want to wait and are anywhere near Boston, then you ought to stop by one of Herb Chambers Mercedes dealerships.

They are showing 14 E500's in inventory in a price range of 58K to 70K.

They have 48 E class cars including about that many 02 E's, about 14 or 15 03 320E's, and several 03 wagons.

I am not a sales person for MB or HCC. But it seems to me that they might be negotiable given their inventory.

Just an FYI...

pathdoc · October 2002

In response to post # 3981. The new E wagon will not arrive until next year . If there are E wagons on the lot they must be 2002's and I have not seen many around. Possibly the are C class wagons. I will be attending the E class driving event this weekend and will post any impression next week.

gsenthil · October 2002

http://www.imakenews.com/autospies/e_article000090979.cfm

gsenthil · October 2002

Read the manual

http://www.mercedes-benz.com/e/cars/e-class/betriebsanleitung/vertiefen/default.htm

habitat1 · October 2002

The E-class wagon coming next year will be a 2004. There is a 2003 E-class wagon which is a carryover of the previous model.

Woe is me. I turned down a new 2001 E320 Wagon last June at $2k under invoice when MB was offering dealer incentives. Our Isuzu Trooper recently had a near fatal engine malfunction and I decided to look into the 2003 Wagon. Essentially the same as the 2001 and 2002, without the dealer incentives. The difference in price works out to about $7k more for a 2003 than the identically equiped 2001 I considered only 15 months ago. Can't wait to see what the sell the 2004's at next spring.

wniel · October 2002

I participated in the Mercedes E-Motion event this afternoon and left very impressed. After driving the E500 through the course twice and the E320 once, I left feeling very unimpressed with the E320. Don't get me wrong the E320 is a nice riding car and performs reasonably well depending on what your definition of performance is. However, when you drive the E500 and put your foot in it from the start and feel the tremendous acceleration and then the panic stop which is part of the program, one can't help but feel totally stoked by the rush of adrenaline You then put your foot in it again which takes you through a series of turns and you can feel how the car hugs the road. I then went and drove the E320 and felt no excitement. It was OK but no where near the excitement of driving the E500.
If anyone gets the chance to participate in this event, don't pass it up as it is well worth the time.
Wally

mark156 · October 2002

I stopped by Fletcher Jones in Newport Beach a couple of weeks ago and saw the 2003 E wagon. Habitat1 is right, they are the old style with a new price. I hate when manufactures do that. When a new model comes out, they should have the whole line re-freshened. Waiting for wagons, convertibles or any other choice in the line should not happen. It shouldn't take an additional model year to complete a line with the new style.

My .02 worth, Mark

dunninla · October 2002

I agree the stock 2001 E320 is numb as respects the road feel. So I upgraded to 17" wheels, 235/45/17 performance tires, and Eibach springs. Much more responsive, controlled in corners and quicker to wheel input. A very well spent $2500.

Anyone have a similar package that can comment on how the new E500 feels in comparison?

r1_97 · October 2002

If you want a comparison, why not go for a demo in a new 500? Do you value the opinion of others more than your own?

I have a 2001 E320 (stock) and it doesn't feel numb to me, but that's just my opinion. If you want to feel numb, try a Lexus 300es. Tomorrow, I'm going for the "emotion" event and will post my impressions.

magnetophone · October 2002

mark156, they haven't come out with a new-bodystyle E wagon yet. Nobody in their right mind should buy one now, when they can get the same thing in 02 for cheaper.

lex10 · October 2002

I have had the Bmw 528 for apx 6 years with over 80,000 miles on it and felt it was time for a change. I did not feel like waiting another year for the new Bmw 5 series or the new Lexus GS, also nobody really knows for certain what engines (horsepower) the new models will offer or what they will even look like; it seems to be all speculation. What I do know is that Mercedes seems to be making an excellent car, since I did test drive it and did some research into it. Most of the new gadgets in the E500 have been tested on other models before they were added to the E class (brakes, suspension, etc). The E500 is a sharp car and should be more than adequate with
the 300 plus hp.

haspelbein · October 2002

I finally got to take a look at my broken rear power window. After carefully removing trim, the cable release for the lock, and a couple of electrical connections, as well as peeling back the horribly pink moisture barrier, I looked at this:

Instead of the scissor/jaw-type regulator I expected, I was faced with a single track cable-based regulator. I could easily see that the cable was loose, but I didn't know where it attached. So I drilled through 4 rivets to removed the whole assembly from the door. It turns out that the cable attaches to a metal clamp on the regulator itself, which was bent out of place. Not willing to take any chances, I went to the local Mercedes dealership to get the replacement part.

I was initially a pit puzzled when I was quoted $250, but it seems that the part of the pre-98 W210s comes with the electric motor, which was still working in my case. The parts clerk then got a regulator for a 98 without the motor, compared the two, deemed it a close enough fit, and told me to bring it back if I had any problems. His effort saved me $130. Claridges Mercedes in Fremont, CA, thank you very much !

Installation wasn't too bad, but I don't have too much experience with a riveter, so it took me a little longer. Overall, I spent about 4 hours on it, but mostly because I was overly careful trying not to damage the trim or the vehicle paint. Parts were about $121, and a pro would maybe take 1 to 2 hours to complete this job.

If you feel like doing it yourself, I could compile a more detailed list of steps. I hope this answers your question.

Have a nice weekend !

marsha7 · October 2002

2000 or 2001 E430, 4Matic, I'd like your opinions...is the 4matic worth having, does it add to the safety of the car in the real world, what does it do to mpg, would you buy it again...the same goes for those who did not buy 4Matic, why did you avoid it???

footie · October 2002

Thanks for the great picture. Looks like you learned a lot and save a bunch too.

Are my eyes decieving me? This set up look very similar to the way many power radio antennas are driven.

Also is what you call a 'regualtor' the horizontal silverish bar that takes the window up and down?

Thanks again for the explanation!

marsha7 · October 2002

I also meant to ask about Starmark...any comments about it, pro or con...

haspelbein · October 2002

Yes, it is similar to many power antennas (without the telescoping action). Actually, it is a rather simple cable setup. The 'regulator' is the whole assembly,with the exception of the motor. It's a slider on the silvery track, moved by the cable, with a cable spool under the round black cover.
The window has a small aluminum piece attached, which latches onto the plastic slider.

cmaustin · October 2002

I am thinking of buying a 2003 E500. I need to figure out color and options and I would like your opinion on them.

#1 Sport Pkg - I'm going for this. I like the wheels and trim.

#2 Pana Roof - Looks neat but will I use it? I never open the cover on my current sun roof. Either I open the roof (rarely) or it's closed. Solar based fans is neat. I wonder if it does much.

#3 Keyless go. I've never thought turning a key was a hassle. Do I want this? I think the start/stop button takes away from the interior.

#4 Seat options. Drive dynamic seats sounds like something I want. Thoughts? Does the Ventilated option work? Add any noise?

#5 I want the integrated phone. Others like it? How about the voice control?

#6 Interior Colors. I know it's personal. My thoughts are the black looks great but is too hot for where I live. The light tan, again looks great, but will show stains too easy. That leaves the blue or dark grey. I've seen the grey and it looks fine but I would like you thoughts on the blue.

Thanks for your help.

livetodrive · October 2002

I have a 2001 E-430 4Matic. Here in PA we get an occasional snowfall, but not enough to merit buying a set of snowtires, so my experience has been with the all-season Pirelli P7s the car came with.

The 4-Matic performed flawlessly during snow last year. In particular, it kept me going in a heavy snowstorm during which quite a number of number of other cars got stuck trying to make it up grades or around bends. Combined with the ESP, which tends to kick in on slippery surfaces, it is very stable.

I believe the gas mileage penalty is about 1 mpg. Highway mileage will reach 22 mpg on a steady cruise.

linard · October 2002

I think any choice you'll make will be a good one. But my personal choice would be an Obsidian Black, Tectite Gray, Silver, or Capri Blue (not sure how it looks in an E but looks great in a C) with Charcoal. I not a personal fan of the blue, but it's unique. I would get the Panorama roof because I think it's a wonderful addition to the car, makes it very spacious feeling and airy. I would not get Keyless Go, I think the standard smart key is fine but it's fun gimmick. You should get the Xenons, they're bright enough to peel of house paint. The integrated phone is such an expensive option but you do get the voice activation. And the Sports Package is a must... I hear the standard seats are wonderful, but the additional equipment adds to the comfort, especially the ventilated seats in a hot climate. I guess there are pros and cons to every choice, but it's such a great car already, you can't really ruin it.

marsha7 · October 2002

I just learned something while perusing the auto want ads yesterday...it seems that used E320s
(hundreds of them) from 1999 through 2000 can be had for low 30s to mid 30s, and E420s (much
fewer of them) are advertised in the low to mid 20s for 1995 through 1998s, and the E430s
(1998-2000) are from upper 20s to low to upper 30s, with very low mileage models in the lower
40s...most vehicles ranged from 20K miles to 50K miles, which I always thought was just
breaking in the engine on a Mercedes, whereas 50K on an American engine means its best days
are behind it...I did not realize that E420s and E430s could be had for that kind of money, I just
thought they were starting in the high 40s and going up from there...are there any specific red
flags to look for with a E420 or E430, as they seem to be just a E320 with a larger engine (is the 420 engine better or worse than the 430), what
option packages were available at the time (did they have xenon headlights standard, or were
sport suspensions optional, or any other packages) and would it be smart to consider a used
420/430 or should they be avoided altogether?...it just seems to make an MB more affordable than I originally believed, and if they really are good for 200K miles or more, this might be doable...example, 1999 E430, 49K miles, exc condition (subject to interpretation) $31,900; or 1998 E430, 49K miles, like new, $29,500...1997 E420, 52K miles, $23,800...are these cars ready for the boneyard, or are these
reasonable prices (asking prices, I might add), assuming the cars have not been wrecked?...does it
pay to go thru a dealer for Starmark certification (I had posted this earlier out of context) or just buy thru an owner?...are dealers negotiable on their used car prices, or do they hold firm???...thanks for any answers you can offer...

john01 · October 2002

As far as the mileage goes, you need not be concerned with the ones you have found. I'd rather check for accident damages, issues seller could not deal with, etc. There are tons of E-class taxis running around in Germany, as most probably know, and I asked some of the drivers about why they drive MB. The answer was, there usually is no major problem with the drive train accept for the common maintenance items. Once the car hits, oh say about 450,000 to 600,000 km, they then sell them off to places like Poland where they continue to be operated for quite a while. No rebuild on the engine and transmission.

gmacosta · October 2002

wow! great job! looks like you saved some $. i tried looking at it myself but stop when after i popped off all those plastic pop rivets i didnt know what to take off next. can you give me more pics and detail from start to finish? i'm pretty good with small automotive repairs such as this so i think i'll do this too. can you help me? with pics and directions? thanks!

slejre · October 2002

I am new to this board and my apologies that I am starting with a bad note! My husband just bought me the new E500 2003. We have been on the waiting list for over a year and the car just arrived. Well, let me tell you it is awesome... Black on Black... panoramic sunroof... basically all the bells and whistles..

Well, the bad news... upon mild acceleration, in first and second gear... it makes a noise that sounds like a singer sewing machine... I took it back to the dealer the next morning and they said that they have had this before and that I should let the car break in... He said it was the lifters..???? Mercedes is aware of the problem but does not have a fix...

Has anyone else had this problem?

Mercedes-Benz E-Class Sedans

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