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Comments
I agree with you about C&D's "final number", that's crap.
Also, resale value is just about as good in the Corolla as the Civic. And many say the rebates you get on Mazdas and the money you save up front on Hyundais kinda eludes the resale anyway. Why worry about getting the money back when you don't have to spend it in the first place?
Honda just needs to make the Civic better, and I have heard that from alot of people. I don't know, because I never drove a 2001+.
One thing that gets me is that C&D said about panel gaps, but the 01+ Civic is suppose to have tighter tolerances than any Civic ever. I don't get it.
Of course with all the transmission failures with Honda and Acura, the extended warranties, the oil consumption issues, loss of a true front suspension for 02 in the Civic, and the "Americanization of the Accord" I understand your hostility.
Of course you will all continue to purchase your Honda's because, well, you know, they are Honda's!
I can just see the next C&D review that places the Civic on top. Let's see, "a fair and balanced review," " not subjective in the least," "they really got the numbers right on this one."
Like I said, ROFLMAO!
ZOOM!
Hondas have a proven history for reliability, safety, efficiency and environmental consciousness. The facts are that the transmission problems are limited to the V6 engines, which at best are 25% of the hondas sold. Oil consmption issues? I don't recall hearing anything about Hondas using excess oil. Maybe you got this confused with the Toyota Camry. And having a non double-wishbone front suspension is expected in a family car that does not pretend to be something it's not. It offers lighter weight and more interior room. And since most drivers can't tell the difference between a civic with double wishbone and macpherson strut suspensions, I doubt this will make a difference in the big picture.
C&D is a magazine that emphasizes sportiness in driving. The civic is not meant to be a sporty car. It just happens to have that image because of previous generation civics were popular among young people who wanted to "soup" up their basic transportation machines.
If you want sporty right out of a dealer lot, try a Honda S2000, Acura NSX, Acura RSX, or even Acura CL/TL. The Civic is true to its name, it is clean, efficient, safe, and easy on the wallet.
True, the civic may have some slight flaws since it was redesigned, but people still buy it, the sales numbers speak for themselves. People vote with their wallets rather than words. It's hard to make huge improvement leaps when the car is already #1 in its class, whereas other makes & models have so much to improve on.
Cheers!
Not just previous generation of Civic were popular among young people. All generation of Civics are popular among young people. My 17 years daughter and her friends are very happy to own Civics. We have some many Hondas (most are Civics) in our neighborhood. Before we purchased our Civic, I asked her about what other cars she will consider besides BMW 3 and Lexus IS300. Jetta is another one of them. When I asked her Protege, her comment was what is that? Nobody drives Mazda. Civic, Jetta, IS300 and BMW 3 series are popular among the young people, Civic is the most popular (cheapest ) one, they often joked about to buy a KIA so no one else will drive the same car to school.
glideslopes- Of course! We don't need to sink down to the Mazda people's level, even if they come in here flaming.
Isellhondas: I bet you won't be printing copies of this comparison test to distribute to possible owners like Honda has done in the past eh?
He says he's spotted in addition to his 2001 Satin Silver Civic EX 4-door:
Six 2002 Satin Silver Honda Civic EX 4-door's
Two 2002 Green Civic EX 4- door's
Two 2002 Black Civic EX 4-door's
Two 2002 Satin Silver EX 2-door's
One 2002 Green Civic LX 4-door
One 2002 Taffeta White Civic LX 2-door
One 2001 Blue Civic EX 4-door
One 2001 Satin Silver Civic LX 4-door
Amazing that there are seventeen 2001-2002 Honda Civics at his high school but it pretty much proves that SOMETHING paid off with the redesign, even if there are a couple rattles and squeaks here and there.
BTW, my son says he has only seen 3 Mazda Protégés, so while it may not be the high school favorite, he and I still think they're good little cars, maybe even a little more sporty than his Civic....
I think the civic is a great car for the money, but it's not a perfect car, in addition to the usual first year redesign problems, the engine is lagging in comparison to its competitors. I hope we see a new i-VTEC engine put in before the next redesign though. It's needed for low-rpm torque, and probably quieter. The civic unfortunately just missed the boat on this since Honda is introducing the new engine in redesigned cars right after the civic redesign. So far the Acura RSX, CRV, & 2003 Accord are the only ones with it, but most other models will probably get it before the civic.
I think the engine issue is probably the biggest downside to the current civic, by getting a new iVTEC engine, it will be zippier, quieter, and probably get even better mileage. The current structure of the car is well designed, very safe and the styling is not offensive.
How many students are at that school?
Well then I guess the Ford Explorer is the Best SUV. And the Chrysler Minivans are the best because they sell the most.
"See everybody has one", "it's so popular, so it must be the best". Yeah sure.
And if you go back 8 or 10 years of CR, you'll find that no Japanese brand car has had such a drop in reliability after a redesign as the Civic & Oddysey.
It's amazing how everyone loves to quote the good, but can't face it when the star isn't shining so brightly any longer.
glideslopes was so accurate in his post.
A. It's a Honda
B. Proven reliability (engine works, transmission works, rattles and such not included)
C. This is a car he'll have through college and into his first job. I knew that if I cheapened out with say a 1991 Honda or made himself buy his own car (which he could have), it would never have gotten him the reliability and safety he has with his Civic. Plus, my son should be saving his money for the future and not on a depreciating investment.
BTW, we all have different views so please don't tell me a 17 year-old doesn't deserve a car like this, etc. This was my choice, end of story. Sorry, but I know how topics such as this can get.
Anyway, answering the question about whether or not parents all buy their kids $17,000 cars, the answer is probably yes. In my community, my son has said a couple kids drive old Taurus's, a couple drive old Buick's, etc., but an insane amount drive 1996+ Jeep Grand Cherokee's/1997 Jeep Wranglers, at least four 2002+ Jeep Liberty's, many 2001+ Honda Civic's, a bundle of 1998+ Nissan Pathfinders, two 2002 Infiniti QX4's, couple Acura RSX's, many 1997+ Ford Explorers, couple 2001+ Accord EX V6 coupes, one BMW X5, two BMW 330ixi's and so on.
Oh and to answer how many kids are in his school, I'd say around 2,000....1,000 of which are eligible to drive (Juniors and Seniors).
Is it right for kids to have $40,000 SUV's and cars? I'd say not, but I'm sure there are many who'd say they don't deserve $17,000 cars either, so who am I really to judge. Living on the north shore of Chicago definitely does give you a skewed perception of how the majority of the US lives. Oh well...
And once again, I still feel the Civic is the best small car for around $17,000. I imagine most parents bought it because it has phenomenal crash test scores, and proven reliability.
I'm not going to go out and buy a Hyundai just because the door gaps are smaller, or that the 4 banger is quieter during acceleration. That was never the reason why we bought the Honda.
The other closest competitor at the time we got the Civic was the Corolla in my opinion, and at the time, it was ripe for a redesign. But the new Corolla is nice, too.
All I'm saying is the Civic must be popular for a reason, along with the Odyssey, and if you noticed, it isn't 0% financing or $3,000 rebates pushing the Odyssey's and Civic's off the lots (i.e. Ford Explorer's, DC minivans)
In fact, my school's parking lot was 90% faculty and 10% students, rather than the other way around.
It's a good thing that the disposable income is out there for people to do whatever they want - whether the signal that sends to young people about their place in the economic world is a good one is another question...
In January 2002 my choice was between a VW Jetta, Toyota Corolla (not the 2003), and a Honda Civic. My younger brother suggested the Mazda Protege but I never really looked into it. I wish I had now just for comparison sake.
I ultimately chose the 2002 Honda Civic because for $16,000 I could get a loaded EX Sedan with 5 star front and side impact crash test ratings, reliability, resale value, plus all the goodies that I wanted like a moonroof, CD player, automatic and then safety essentials such as front and side airbags, ABS, 3 point seat belts for all occupants, LATCH and tether anchors.
Styling is a personal choice and while others slam the new Civic style, I personally love it. I feel I made a wise choice for my budget and safety standards. In the end I am the only driver of this car and the one making the payments, I wanted a car that *I* would love driving for many years to come.
Carrie ~2002 Honda Civic EX sedan in Eternal Blue Pearl.
I am very impressed you did a excellent survey of high school cars. Job well done. Civic is very very popular in So Calif. I know my daughter's high school has about 3000 or so kids, from 9-12th grade. Lots of Civic (most popular ones), Jetta, Corolla, Accord, BMW 3 series, IS300 are also popular. Least popular ones are KIA and Hyndai. I don't remembe even seeing one. I went to two carwash event never washed any KIA or Hyundai. I guess middle income American drive Japanese or German cars only eh?
I believed you made a very wise decision. Look at the maintenance cost you will save and resale value of the Civic.
Carrie you are just 25? Darn, so sorry I thought you are a little older. My mistake. LOL.
Who paid $17,000 for Honda Civic? No one paid sticker price. We paid less than $15k for our 02 EX. LOL.
Well guess you people don't live in the area I live. High school kids drives $30K-$40K brand spanking new BMW, MB, Lexus, is normal here in our area. I am one of the cheap parents who bought $15k car.
bjk
The Elantra does not match the Civic and Jetta in NHTSA tests with regards to frontal impact. Civic (with and without side airbags) and Jetta (with side airbags) receive 5-stars for both front passengers. Elantra (with side airbags) receives 5-stars for frontal impact on driver side, but only 4-stars for passenger side. It does, however, get 5-stars for driver side impact, but 4-stars for passenger side impact.
IIHS results for the Elantra is not consistent with NHTSA results. Overall, it was rated Poor (lowest score), with Good ratings in Structure/safety Cage and chest injury, and Poor ratings in head injury and restraints/dummy kinetics, and only Marginal right/left foot/leg evaluation.
2002 Subaru Impreza has not been tested by the NHTSA yet. Also, it is not tops in the IIHS test. Both the Civic and Impreza are rated best picks, receiving Good (highest score) in all frontal crash test evaluations.
Jetta received an Overall rating of Good. While not at the top of the class in this test, its rating is not as inconsistent with NHTSA as to receive a Poor rating.
Good research and thanks for clarification.
Since I don't own an Elantra and never will (had very bad experience with Korea made TV. cell phone and electronics), I don't really care what kind of rating an Elentra gets. Guess people always wants to compare with Civic since its bench mark of the small cars in US.
IMHO, if I purchased some other car I will have to justify my decision to convince myself that I made a good decision. Since I bought a Civic, no question asked.
bjk
You are correct that the Elantra does not match Civic and Jetta on NHTSA frontal impact scores. I did not say that it did. When I said Elantra was comparable to Civic (4-door) and Jetta on NHTSA tests, I was referring to the fact that each car received two 5-star ratings and each received two 4-star ratings. Yes, they received them in different areas. I guess the difference matters only when you get hit in the front vs. the side. :-0
IIHS lists cars in order from best to worst. The Impreza eaked out the top spot in crash worthiness over the Civic, perhaps because of the numbers behind the frontal crash ratings, perhaps because of a slightly better ranking on head restraint design for the Impreza. It's obviously not because the Impreza comes alphabetically before the Civic. Note that in the pictures of "Best vs. Worst", it's the Impreza and the Spectra, not the Civic and the Spectra.
http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/summary_small.htm
http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/grey_small.htm
This chart gives you the details on occupant compartment intrusion on frontal crash tests, where the Impreza is ranked first because it betters the Civic by 3 cm (<------3cm------->) in the footrest, 1 cm in the left and center footwell intrusions, and 2 cm in the right footwell intrusion. It also either ties with or betters the Civic by 1 or 2 cm in other compartment intrusion evaluations.
As you hinted, that is why the Impreza is ranked ahead of the Civic in the IIHS report. It's not because of the headrest (where the Impreza ranks ahead of the Civic), otherwise the nod would go to either the Civic or both cars since IIHS also includes the bumper damage evaluation (where the Civic ranks ahead of the Impreza) into the overall ranking. Although Honda does come before Subaru alphabetically.
So you're correct that the Impreza is tops, even though by only 3 cm at most.
The car didn't have the "tossability" I thought Hondas were famous for. The interior felt cramped for my 6'3, 270lb. body (the Corolla did too). The controls were not lit at night for the power accessories. And the car's transmission (auto), when shifted, sounded like it would come lose. Rattles were abound too, but I am sure these cars were abused.
I had never checked the Civic sedan before buying my 2002 Jetta. Now it looks like I didn't miss much. Shame on you, Honda.
You get a bit more tossability in a Civic EX (more responsive, powerful engine), which is more expensive than an LX, but it still won't handle like the Protege.
If you want the Honda tossability that people either rave about or scoff at, it's going to cost you close to or above 20K. Think Honda Accord Coupe, S2000 or Prelude. You may even have to switch to Acura if you want more selections.
Why spend more for a Civic EX? For that price, you can nearly get a Jetta 1.8T. Which one would you choose??
Per CarsDirect.com (MSRP):
2003 Civic EX sedan, automatic with side airbags: $18,570
2003 Jetta GL 1.8T, auto., ESP: $20,680
Civic has a power sunroof and center armrest. Jetta has side curtain airbags, ESP, traction control, cassette/CD player, 180hp vs. 127, and longer warranty (4/50K vs. 3/36K). So for $2110 more, you get additional safety and warranty coverage, and a much nicer interior ambience, but lose a sunroof. And better service too, from what I have heard.
Carrie
vocus- For that price, I'd get an Accord.
I've never really heard anyone rave about the Civic's handling, though. It's certainly not floaty like a Buick, but I wouldn't call it sporty, either.
Just curious...did you test drive the Civic before or after the Protege? Perception plays a large part, also. I find the Accord to handle quite well, but I'm pretty sure I'd scoff at that statement if I drove it right after I drove a 3-Series.
The handling wasn't the only thing about the Honda though. The interior felt cramped compared to the others, at least in the driver's seat. I was totally shocked, like I said. And let down a little.
He'll put the car in drive, drive away, and within 5 seconds or less, there is a distinct "click" coming from the front of the car while in motion. And it's only one click, and then it never happens again.
Has anyone noticed this before, is it supposed to happen, and do you think he should take the car in?
It's done this for a long time, but he's starting to notice it again, and having heard it myself, it just doesn't sound QUITE normal. Thanks!
http://www.thehollywoodextra.com
Greetings from sunny Miami.
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/nhtsa/announce/press/pressdisplay.cfm?year=2002&filename=pr65-02.html
Corolla's crash test is impressive: 5-stars for both occupants on frontal, and 4 stars for both occupants on side impact.
Honda Pilot received 5-stars on all 4 tests. *clap clap clap*
The only comparison going on is between the IIHS and NHTSA crash tests for the Impreza sedan and Impreza wagon, respectively, which recalls the comments made about the Impreza not being tested by NHTSA (hence the title of the post "crash tests: revisited") from the previous discussion. And I made clear that one test was for the sedan and one test was for the wagon.
And since it revisits an earlier discussion, it's not as off-topic as you'd like to imply. Unless you admit that you were off-topic in said previous discussion, in which you were quite active, thus making you a hypocrite for pointing it out in my post.
Finally, the comments about the Corolla and Pilot were just that: they were merely comments.
I think my reading skills are just fine, thank you. For example, you said nothing in your post about the Impreza sedan; it was all about the wagon. My earlier posts (way back around 2222, over a week ago) were all about crash tests on the Civic and competing cars. I didn't see the relationship to the Civic in your post and didn't want to assume one. Thanks for clarifying it for me.
You didn't see any mention of the Civic in my post because, as the title suggests, it relates to our debate from over a week ago regarding the Impreza's crash test vs the Civic in both NHTSA and IIHS, which obviously included the Civic (subject of this board). I will not type out everything from before in verbatim just to make it obvious that we're discussing something relevant to the Civic.
But recall that NHTSA evaluations were not available for the Impreza. With the new release of the evaluations for the wagon, at least we can compare the results from the 2 tests, albeit a sedan to a wagon. Even if the wagon's results are inconclusive, its ratings of 4 and 5 stars, respectively, for frontal driver and passenger do not match the Civic's 5-stars for both front occupants. The best the sedan can do is gain an extra star for the front occupant to equal the Civic.
And it was these results that we were missing in our earlier debate. Unfortunately, they didn't test a sedan, and beggars can't we choosers, so we'll make do with the wagon results in the interim. When NHTSA decides to evaluate the Impreza sedan, we can renew the discussion again.
As for civility, try not to point the finger at me as your post was not exactly warm and fuzzy, either.
When talking about NHTSA crash tests, we should bear in mind that the NHTSA rules say that vehicles can be compared to each other on the frontal crash tests only if they are within 250 pounds of each other. That means the NHTSA frontal crash tests for the Impreza and Civic should not be compared to each other, due to the weight differential of over 500 pounds. The side impact scores can be compared, but the results there are incomplete since the Impreza hasn't been fully tested yet.
So in other words, the star ratings are relative to cars within its class, but the actual crash measurements can be comparable across classes. Correct me if I'm wrong.