Honda Civic 2005 and earlier

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Comments

  • jmaterojmatero Member Posts: 253
    With all due respect BJK... a 2002 elantra with AT can be had for under $12000 right now so a used one going for $11,000 is pretty good. Again, the point is not how much they are worth but how much they depreciate. My point is this, the civic holds more of it's value but does not offer special financing while the elantra depreciates more but has low financing so from what I can calculate, it's a wash. In other words, I can't figure in resale as a factor when choosing between these two cars. The civic, with a good deal, is selling for over $2500 more than the elantra and has a better warranty. It is also put together a lot better than the current civic based on my inspection so it's going to come down to which ride is better. I've been a civic guy my whole live and I thought I was set until I drove the elantra. I'm driving a Civix EX sedan with AT tonight for comparison.
  • bjk2001bjk2001 Member Posts: 358
    Well you have to compare Elantra with the same option as Civic EX. Honda EX comes with Sunroof and ABS as standard so if you load up Elantra GLS it will be more than $12,000. I just checked carsdirect, add automatic you have to either add accessory group 4 plus ABS or accessory group 5 plus sunroof. Even with 1000 rebate it will run you between $13,500 -$14,000 from Carsdirect.com. So price difference between my Civic EX Auto $14,988 and loaded Elantra is less than $1,500 bucks. If you look at resale value too. 61% vs 48 %.
    $16,000 x 48%= $7,680. vs. Civic $11,150.
    Civic costs more initially but total deal Civic comes up better. According to the past history, used Civic is much easier to sell than used Hyundai.

    It's your car you will decide what to drive.
  • jmaterojmatero Member Posts: 253
    Who ever thought I could be so torn over a purchase....

    I can get the hyundai for $14,000 even with ABS (below invoice) and the Civic EX for $16200. That's the lowest any Honda dealer in the tristate area will sell at so far. So we're talking 2Grand. I checked out the Civic last night and the only thing holding me back is the design. It seems to be put together as the designers wanted but I have some reservations. First, the door handle pulls inside the vehicle can be easily twisted.... on every one I tried... in other words, when you pull on the door from inside, the whole panel moves with it! The rear pulls were worse. It scares me and makes me wonder what things will be like in 2 years. I'm a freak for perfection and demand it in my cars. This should be an easy choice! I'm a Honda guy. I'm supposed to just buy the Civic and that's it! But that damn Hyundai is put together so well and is so much less that it keeps pulling me away. The only other thing is that I really enjoy my sunroof and MUST have ABS and the Elantra GLS doesn't offer BOTH... it's one or the other. However, I could spend $1500 more and get the hatchback but now I'm spending the same as the Civic and there is no special financing. I'll have to do some hard thinking today.
  • alyssazmomalyssazmom Member Posts: 142
    You have to make the payments at the end of the day so you should be happy with the car you ultimately choose. That being said, I would personally (and did) choose the Civic for these reasons:

    The 1# reason: 5 star crash test rating, front and side. You can NOT beat that. For me, it came down to safety over cost. I could get the ABS on the EX plus side airbags with the "goodies" (sunroof, cd player) standard.

    2: Reliability. Yes, Hyundai may come with a 10yr/100,000 mile warranty but there's a reason why; you're going to need it. And I prefer to keep my car OUT of the service department for me to drive :)

    I'm not sure what you mean about the twisty door handles. Mine are solidly built. It could have been the car (a demo car?) that was the problem. I would carefuly inspect the Civic you are actually going to drive off the lot with. The dealer is suppose to run down a list of everything with you and I made sure there wasn't a single defect (there wasn't :)).

    YOU are paying for this car and if you want both ABS and a sunroof, why not get the car that has better reliability and perfect crash test ratings?

    Best of luck and PLEASE keep us posted as to what you choose!

    ~Carrie
  • gasguzzgasguzz Member Posts: 214
    How does the math work again...
    You say you keep your cars at some 2yrs interval, and the reason a loan beyond 48mos is? I won't even mention the 1-2yr depreciation hit on a purchase, that condition is a good candidate for a lease instead. What's that - trading at its highest depreciation rate and with money owed?
    If the consumption term is 2yrs, go with the resale value dynamics (if ABS/Crash-rating isn't the minimum).
  • bjk2001bjk2001 Member Posts: 358
    Hey how about take some vacation time and flying down here in So Cal and buy a Civic EX Auto for $14,988 then drive it all the way back there!
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Selling a new Civic EX for 1700.00 below invoice?

    I mean...WHY? Something smells pretty funny here.

    And, the resale values on used Hyundais are horrible. They don't bring anywhere near what the books say. Even then, they are nearly impossible to sell. Just no market for them.

    This could someday change I suppose...
  • bjk2001bjk2001 Member Posts: 358
    isellhondas:

    Yes Civic EX Auto 4 Dr $1,700 below the invoice. It may smell pretty funny to you if you sell Honda. I don't. We bought our 02 in April paid $14,988 also got special Honda rate 3 years for 2.9% $1,700 below the invoice from Colonial Honda. Brand spanking new and it was assembled in Japan too. I also sent another girl to different Honda dealer (Woodland Hill Honda) in So Calif she paid the same price last month and she even got mud guard, floormats and door edge guard free. We only got mud guard in our price. If you take a look at the weekend LA Times Auto section, you could see thoses price all over here. Not just 1 only. Riverside (Riverside, Ca) Honda put $14,988 price all the time.

    You tell me what's funny about this picture. They are making too much money out of each Odyssey and Pilot they sell. They try to move as many Accord and Civic as possile to get more Odyssey and Pilot in. If these price are lower than the price you are getting from Honda, maybe you can cars from them instead of from Honda Factory. Since you sell Honda, you know better about Honda's quota than me!

    bjk
  • gasguzzgasguzz Member Posts: 214
    Oh yah, bj.
    So Cal is car country (I used to live in Buena Park, Orange County).
    $1700 below is no big deal (especially on other cars/makes).
  • rupprruppr Member Posts: 3
    Recently bought the above at a estate sale. Has been used as a 'toad' behind an RV. Milage says 97,000 but since the speedometer turns when being towed, who knows what it really is but it is a creampuff.

    Anyway, I'm missing the point, the car does not have a owners manual. What is the correct weight oil for this model? Also what weight is used in the manaul transmission?

    Many thanks for the help,

    ruppr
  • jmaterojmatero Member Posts: 253
    I don't know about So. CA but perhaps there is some kind of special rebate in your neighborhood because in the rest of the country, they are selling at invoice, maybe slightly below. Even in the Civic pricing forum here, people are paying over $16k for them AFTER haggling so to pay $14995 for one is quite suspicious... again, unless your neighborhood has some kind of dealer cash deal available that the rest of us don't. I can get the ABS/AT hyundai for $14k so if the civic was $15k there would REALLY be a shootout! Perhaps you could send a link to a dealer in your area advertising these vehicles at this price? With airfare so low, I JUST MIGHT consider flying out there!
  • jmaterojmatero Member Posts: 253
    Cars direct, Edmunds, Autobytel... none of their best prices (and they're pretty good... they include all rebates and special deals and show invoice) show the EX/AT at less than $16200 so if the dealer DID sell you the car at that price, he took a HUGE LOSS and must have been desparate to move them. You're a lucky, but your pricing is not what we all pay. That's probably why you can't understand why people would consider the elantra. It makes more sense now.
  • jmaterojmatero Member Posts: 253
    also, if you traded in a vehicle, they may have offered you less for your car to bring down the price of the vehicle... this is a common dealer 'trick' to make you think you're getting the new car for a lot less.
  • zepplinl1zepplinl1 Member Posts: 7
    Hi everyone,
    I'm having a problem with my brakes and want all of your expert advice. I recently went to the dealership because they were making a loud clunk noise when I used the brakes once in a while. He said Honda's brakes now just float so they'll do that. Well, he put some grease by the caliper so damper the noise and it worked! Now though, when I come to a slow stop, it feels like a rotar is warped (but it's not) because I feel the car jerking slightly when I stop. I thought some grease just got on the rotar and it was slipping past the pad but I took all the wheels off and saw no grease and even wiped them down!
    Any thoughts on why this may be happening and if it's bad for the brakes or the car in the long run? Thanks so much!!
  • gasguzzgasguzz Member Posts: 214
    "if you traded in a vehicle, they may have offered you less for your car to bring down the price of the vehicle"
    It's not a trick if you can see it (it's all in the contract).
  • gasguzzgasguzz Member Posts: 214
    There should a plate indicating the spec in the engine compartment. I believe this car used 10w-30 (what's on the oil cap?), and the tranny used crank oil too. You can call Honda Service to verify.

    By the way...
    "Milage says 97,000 but since the speedometer turns when being towed"
    On a 5-speed in neutral?
  • vocusvocus Member Posts: 7,777
    If the car is being towed with the back wheels on the ground, the mileage runs up. No matter if the tranny's in neutral or not. The mileage still runs up.
  • bjk2001bjk2001 Member Posts: 358
    NO. I didn't trade in any car! We bought extra car for my daughter graduated from high school. LOL! I never traded in any car.
    Unfortunately local dealer never puts low price on website. Honda World and a few others have $15,388 for 02 CIvic EX Auto.
    Why don't you go to your local Library and check out weekend LA Times Auto section for the last couple months. You could see the low price. I don't know what is suspecious. I did get special promotion rate 3 years for 2.9 % from Honda but not available anymore.

    Carsdirect and Edmunds,,, prices are all high. Or else they will drive dealer out of business. You could go to Edmunds ownership section, they provide maintenance estimate. According to Edmunds I am supposed to pay $135.55 for 15k miles service in zip 91006 for my 01 Honda Ody EX. Guess how much I paid last Sat at my local Sierra Honda. $79.35.

    When I was looking to buy 01 EX last July Sierra Honda price was much higher than other dealer I found. We didn't get our 02 Honda Civic from them cause the price, but I like their service.

    If you go to odyclub website and you could find a girl, I am not going to post her name here. But she did get a ruby red Civic from Woodland Hill Honda based on LA Times ad I told her. Darn I sound like LA Times Sales now.

    Ok just checked local dealer cash incentive for Civc is 250. Accord has $1250 no wonder Accord has better discount than Civc in So Cal.

    Anyway got to get back to work now.

    bjk
  • mtyfmtyf Member Posts: 19
    thanks for the answers to my previous post...

    again, this may be a dumb question...when do they stop making 2002s and start bringing in 2003s? i imagine it'll be soon?
  • jrct9454jrct9454 Member Posts: 2,363
    Isell, your skepticism is understandable, but I have to tell you that these prices are ALL OVER THE PLACE in urban California - and not just SoCal, either. It is simply not a big deal to get an EX Civic Automatic sedan for $15-$15.5k in the Bay Area or even here in the Sacto area. I have no axes to grind here, am not in the market now, but read all the ads and periodically check dealer prices on behalf of friends and relatives who are buying.

    Are they making any money? Hell, I don't know, and don't plan to lose much sleep over it. But clearly this is not a widespread phenomenon around the rest of the country.

    There's just a lot of competition for car dollars around these parts, in a market that is being propped up strictly by pricing, not intrinsic demand.
  • vocusvocus Member Posts: 7,777
    CarsDirect has Civic EX sedans listed for $17K or so, here in the MD area. I need to take a trip to the West Coast, it looks like! :)
  • jrct9454jrct9454 Member Posts: 2,363
    If you plug in a Bay Area or Orange County zip code, their quote out here is on the order of $16.2k. But both the LA Times and SF Chronicle tell you that you can do better than that - and it isn't '1 car at this price' stuff, either. Last Friday, using quotes from the Sacramento Bee, there would have been no reason to spend more than $15.5k on an EX automatic. Every dealer around here has inventory to choke on...
  • bjk2001bjk2001 Member Posts: 358
    jrct9454 is right. For zip in LA city is 900XX sub is 91XXX or try famous 90210. Carsdirect price is $16.2K but LA Times average Civic EX 4dr AT is $15,388, low price is $14,988.
  • diploiddiploid Member Posts: 2,286
    I got my recall letter for the 98 Accord in our house, but didn't receive one for the 99 Civic. Has anyone received theirs yet? If so, what state are you in?
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    I was born and raised in So. Calif and moved from there 16 years ago.

    I know it's a miserable marketplace down there.

    They have other ways of making money. Underallowing on trades, extra fees etc.

    Too bad...so much for value selling!
  • chalupnychalupny Member Posts: 39
    Thinking of purchasing a new Civic LX sedan in the near future. I know that a while back Honda was offering 2.9% financing - I think that offer expired 6/30/02 - no special offers on Civics right now. Does anybody know if they will be offering something like this again in the near future? I drive past the Honda dealer on my way to work everday - they got a bunch of these vehicles on the lot - they don't seem to be selling a lot of them. Is end of summer / beginning of fall a busy time for car dealers? I would think they might offer some specials if they still have a lot of '02s on the lot and the '03s are on the way.
  • jrct9454jrct9454 Member Posts: 2,363
    Suggest you go back about 100 posts and scroll forward. Aside from financing [I don't know what's the latest, since I never finance cars], there are big bargains to be had on actual transaction prices, but very much dependent on where you live. Pricing, like politics, is local...
  • zepplinl1zepplinl1 Member Posts: 7
    Hi everyone,
    I'm having a problem with my brakes and want all of your expert advice. I recently went to the dealership because they were making a loud clunk noise when I used the brakes once in a while. He said Honda's brakes now just float so they'll do that. Well, he put some grease by the caliper so damper the noise and it worked! Now though, when I come to a slow stop, it feels like a rotar is warped (but it's not) because I feel the car jerking slightly when I stop. I thought some grease just got on the rotar and it was slipping past the pad but I took all the wheels off and saw no grease and even wiped them down!
    Any thoughts on why this may be happening and if it's bad for the brakes or the car in the long run? Thanks so much!!
  • 06mike06mike Member Posts: 13
    Hello everyone,
    I need some expert advise. Just purchased used 99 Civic with 44,000 miles. Car is immaculate. Noticed vibration which appears to come from front end. Had the tires balanced and did not cure the problem. Vibration is strongest at 50 MPH and then goes away at 55. Gear selection D4 or D3 (different RPM's) do not change severity of vibration. Any ideas?
  • jrct9454jrct9454 Member Posts: 2,363
    You're describing a classic case of tires that are not round enough for this very sensitive chassis. No matter what's on there, for this car, I would throw them away and start fresh with something that has a reputation for good quality control - Michelin, Dunlop - and have a competent shop mount and balance them and then measure vertical runout before driving away. If your tire tech doesn't KNOW what vertical runout is, then you're in the wrong place...
  • lngtonge18lngtonge18 Member Posts: 2,228
    Has anyone experienced a drop in idle on the 02 LX 5-speed models? My friend mentioned that his car has tried to stall on at least 3 occassions. The idle would drop to about 250 rpms after starting the car, but would catch itself after you hit the gas. He hasn't done anything about it since its been erratic and no warning lights have illuminated. I was just wondering if anyone else has encountered this and if so, how did the dealer address it. Thanks for any info.
  • iwantanm5iwantanm5 Member Posts: 7
    Dear Civic owners, I am looking for a 2002 Civic EX (4-dr, auto) in New Jersey where my gf lives. Her old car jsut broke down. Is anyone here from that area? What's the best offer (including financing) you can get? I appreciate your input.
  • wendydwendyd Member Posts: 3
    I live in Georgia and was quoted $399 doc fees. Is that outrageous? I see some of your messages from CA mentioned doc fees of $45 and $99!
    It's mid-August, so would and offer from me of $1500 below invoice be out of line? Also, is this $460 destination charge negotiable?
    Advice is appreciated.
  • gperrgperr Member Posts: 163
    iwantanm5,

    I am in Southern NJ, near philly and in May I bought (leased) a 2002 Civic EX Sedan auto w/side airbags for my wife for $300 under invoice no haggle upfront pricing from Honda of Turnersville, used to be Classic Honda. For the Month of August their no haggle price for Civic 4-door is $500 under invoice or special finance. You have to call and speak to Jennifer Bowers at 1-888-252-7742- she handles Internet Sales, in order to get this price. Feel free to mention my name as a former customer- since they have a referral program and I think they give $50 to former customers who refer people.

    After speaking to Jennifer, we spoke on the phone with the direct Honda internet saleswoman, Christine. I did everything over the phone and just went in signed the papers and left with the car when it was in. I was not there longer than 40 mins. Great experience.

    Gregg Perr
  • cwliangcwliang Member Posts: 54
    It seems like most people are able to get $300-500 below invoice on Civics without haggling (that's how much I got in December with about an hour of discussion), except in Southern California where it seems people are getting really low prices. The destination fee usually isn't negotiable and some dealers are sticklers for their documentation fees ($399 does seem a bit expensive), but if you are able to get $1500 under invoice on the car then it's probably worth it. :) I usually like to talk 'out-the-door' price rather than discuss invoice price and then have them add a bunch of stuff later. If you can get them down to around $17k flat out-the-door on an '02 EX sedan with auto and side airbags, I think you would have gotten a pretty good deal (based on MD taxes, tags and license fees)... Or maybe even less than that-- I love when salespeople say, 'You're not going to let this deal fall through on $500!' And I'm thinking, well, why not just give me the $500 then?? :)
  • vocusvocus Member Posts: 7,777
    So, if I were in the market for a car, I could fly to So. Cal and get a new Civic EX for $14,988 or so (that's the price quoted here), then register it in MD and pay sales tax on it, right? Just wondering. That might be worth a trip, since the Civic EXs here usually go for about $1500 more.
  • diploiddiploid Member Posts: 2,286
    You might be a bit annoyed (depending on dealers) as to how recalls are handled.

    I tried bringing the family's Accord to the dealer where I bought my Civic for the ignition recall, and they wouldn't do it ("didn't buy it from us, we only have parts for our customers"). Had to go to the original Accord dealer to get it fixed, which is a few miles further.
  • jrct9454jrct9454 Member Posts: 2,363
    Recalls are too important to be handled that cavalierly - I would want someone in the Region to be aware of how you were treated.
  • diploiddiploid Member Posts: 2,286
    Customer Service informed me that since the dealers are independently owned, they couldn't "force" the dealership to handle my case. They offered to get a case manager to speak with the Service Manager, but I declined, as the other Honda dealership was only about 10 miles down the road.

    When the guy told me that his dealership wasn't going to accept the Accord because it wasn't bought there, I nearly laughed at the ludacrisy...I bring my Civic to that dealership for routine oil changes and even recommended them to some of my friends. It's obvious they don't value customer loyalty.

    But it's ok, when I get my recall letter for the Civic, I'll bring it there. And if they find another problem to deny me service, I'm definitely contacting a Case Manager.
  • bjk2001bjk2001 Member Posts: 358
    Sorry to hear about your local dealer is really STUPID. They get paid for all the recall warranty work anyway. Some dealer in LA posts on their website for owner to input VIN number to see if that particular car has any recall on it. And they will do it happily. Dealer makes lots of money for repair and service work. That's a shame to push business away. One thing you could do it to rate them BAD on customer service and report to Honda! Definately they will not get any AWARD from Honda for sure.
  • cwliangcwliang Member Posts: 54
    vocus- I'm guessing that you'd end up paying California taxes on the car... and then bringing it here you'd have to take care of the tags and licensing stuff with the MVA. You might be able to have them NOT put tags on your car in Cali, if you then had the car shipped over and took care of the paperwork at the MVA... if you wanted to drive the car, you'd probably have to get the tags put on there (and pay the CA fees) and then transfer the tags when you get to MD (paying the MD fees). Anyway, could still be worth the $1500, if you had the patience to work it all out...

    One interesting thing about dealers... there seems to be a lot of variety in service departments, but that probably goes without saying. When I first bought my Civic, the alignment was a little off, and I took it to two or three dealerships who told me either it was normal, or they couldn't do anything about it. To which I said, fine, and left, rather than argue about it... I eventually found a dealer that corrected the problem, no questions asked, and I have since continued to use them for all of my scheduled maintenance... so it pays to find a reliable service department early on! (Remind me of this again if my transmission ever falls out and they give me the party line. :)
  • jjpcatjjpcat Member Posts: 124
    When I bought my Civic 1.5 year ago, I did plan on going to LA to buy it. I knew I could be paying $1k less in LA than in the bay area. But I didn't go eventually. Why? There is no guarantee that I can get that dirt cheap price. They were not "all in stock at this price". What happen if you can't get that ad. price on that day? You may have to stay there over night and pay for the hotel. The saving will be much less if you factor in the extra lodging, food, gas, and the air ticket, if you can save anything at all.

    As for the sale tax, all dealers in CA will tax you based on the tax rate in your CA county, not the tax rate in the dealer's county. But I don't know the rule if you live out of CA.

    There are some discussions in Accord thread about buying cars imported from Canada. It's said the price in Canada is 20-25% cheaper. Has anyone bought car in Canada and then drove/ship back to the US?
  • bjk2001bjk2001 Member Posts: 358
    If you want to get a car out of your area, first you have to do is to get in touch with the dealer or have your local friend get in touch with the dealer and get a firm price on the car. Before you travel to pick up the car. I knew one guy from bay area had purchased an Odyssey in So Cal over a year ago. He did all the work on the phone, fax and email prior to come down to drive it home.

    IMHO no Accord, Civic or even Odyssey is worth the trouble to go to Canada to purchase it. You have to deal with warranty issue. Odometer KM vs Mile and whole bunch of issues. You could find it on Odyssey threads there are lots of discussion there.
  • gasguzzgasguzz Member Posts: 214
    I agree with bjk. My US manual points Canadian buyers to refer to the Canadian manual. That's an indication there is a variation in coverage = possible/probable headache. The mechanical conversion/equivalent would be a minor issue. Scrutinize the warranty language.
  • mtyfmtyf Member Posts: 19
    Hi, I'm sorry if this is that dumb of a question...

    I've been hearing all about the 2003 Civic Hybrid, but will there be a regular 2003 Civic sedan? Do models get updated every year or do they just become "2003" cars instead of "2002". What is the effect of this transition on pricing/availability of both the older and the newer models?

    I hope my questions make sense...I basically want to know whether, if I am thinking about buying a civic sedan in september, there will be a scarcity of 2002s (e.g. no silvers) at the low prices out now, but new 2003s coming in that are selling at MSRP?

    Thanks
  • diploiddiploid Member Posts: 2,286
    It depends. Honda usually redesigns their cars every 5 years or so. Most of the time, the 2002 cars just go into 2003 in name alone. But sometimes Honda makes rather significant upgrades to their cars. What might've been optional for the current car will be standard equipment for next year's model. In the case of the previous CR-V, halfway into the cycle, Honda gave it a boost in power. In the case of the Civic, the 1999-2000 models received slight exterior freshenings - but the overall car was still the same as the 199?-2000 lineup.

    But to answer your question - there has been no news about Honda giving the Civic any major upgrades. The 2003 Civics should be no more expensive than the 2002 Civics - Honda is simply having its "clearance sale" on 2002 models to make room for 2003 cars coming into the dealers' lots, not because the 2003 cars will be significantly different.
  • jrct9454jrct9454 Member Posts: 2,363
    ...if you don't mind the fact that your car will instantly be a "year older" in a few weeks' time. I see no big changes for '03 in the Civic, just the usual fiddling with colors and such, so if you like the car and plan to keep it long enough where the model year isn't crucial to resale [say 5 years or longer], then this is a great time to buy. Dealer incentives [which are supposed to be transparent to the retail buyer, but which everyone knows about thanks to the Internet] effectively lower the cost of the car for dealers, who in turn lower the asking prices to move the inventory before the next year's cars arrive.

    And no, the early arrival of the '03 Hybrid has nothing whatever to do with the availability or anything else about the '03 conventionally powered car - model years can be assigned by the manufacturer to accomplish any marketing objective they want. The only "rule" is that to be called, for example, an '03, the car cannot go on sale any earlier than Jan of '02. Nissan introduced the Infiniti G35 as an '03 in March. We bought our '03 Corolla in March...but for carryover designs, the usual transition is August-October.
  • mtyfmtyf Member Posts: 19
    for the detailed replies. I can't wait till I finally just buy a car!
  • jmarrontejmarronte Member Posts: 3
    I have a 2002 Civic EX Sedan with approx. 2,800 miles. I seem to only be getting about 25mpg in the city and 28.5mpg in the highway. Please let me know if this is about right or if other 2002 Civic EX owners are getting different results. Thanks!
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    I have always liked the Civic, and over the years have considered buying one several times, but never did. I just test drove a 5-speed EX the other day and was quite dissapointed - I think the LX would be a better choice for me.

    The EX is supposed to be quicker, but with 2 adults and three kids aboard and the A/C running it seemed very slow to me (much slower than my Integra, and even a little slower than my 1990 Corolla wagon). I don't buy cars for racing, and am considering a Jetta diesel, so acceleration is not a huge issue for me, but I was nonetheless stunned.

    I think an LX would be a lot better, with its torque coming at a much lower rpm. The LX also has more headroom, and turns at a much more sane speed on the highway (the EX is at 3,000 rpm @ 60 mph - just can't see setting the cruise with the tach over 4,000). Only problem is that the LX has no ABS so it is out of the picture.

    I also sat in an Accord (did not drive) and was suprised that the Civic had much more rear head room (almost enough vs. I had to turn my head sideways and my ear almost touched the roof in the Accord - both with sunroofs).

    Maybe the new Accord will fill the bill with mpg closer to the civic, and more headroom (esp since the non sunroof LX has ABS), although I am concerned that it lost some legroom from the previous generation.
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