Honda Civic 2005 and earlier

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Comments

  • mickeywdwmickeywdw Member Posts: 12
    That's exactly what I'm looking for - can you share it?

    thanks
  • RonaHRonaH Member Posts: 12
    Hi! We have had our 2002 Civic EX sedan for four weeks now. My daughter was driving the car last night with her Dad and they noticed that when the compressor in the A/C came on, the headlights dimmed! Anyone else notice this or have any info on this? The car is going back to the dealership for a new window regulator on the driver's side window next Friday. Thanks in advance.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Well, the checklist must have 200 items on it. I usually check the top box and draw a line through the rest and have the customer sign it after I've gone over the car.

    Never once, in seven years have I had a customer want me to go over every little box on the checklist. Like I said, it's pretty dull, boring and useless stuff.

    I always ask if they have any questions at all and ask them to be sure to call me later if something comes to their mind.

    Then, after two or three days I'll call and make sure they are completely happy.

    If you REALLY want to see one of these checklists, I'm sure your dealer will be happy to show you one.
  • gasguzzgasguzz Member Posts: 214
    That should be normal - as long the lights "recover" after the ECU compensates.
    The AC is a 30A circuit, which causes a drain at startup. The power windows behave the same way, as with all high amp systems.
  • RonaHRonaH Member Posts: 12
    Thanks gassguzz for your reply. I called the Honda dealership this morning, as I am taking the car in Friday for some work on the driver's side power window and that was what they told me. funny, I have had a four cylinder Camry and an Accord and never noticed that the headlights dimmed before. Thanks again.
  • spiffyclagalspiffyclagal Member Posts: 4
    Hi:

    Is the destination fee included in the invoice price?
    What do you all think of this quote (SF Bay Area):
    We will offer you a 2002 Honda Civic EX 4dr sedan with automatic
    transmission in any color you desire for $15,926. This is valid
    through
    6/23 and is plus tax, destination, dmv, doc and tire fee. Our price
    includes a full tank of gas, and as our gift to you, door edge guards
    and
    wheel well moldings (a $258 value) to help protect your vehicle against
    damage.

    Thanks,
    Tam
  • millsk1millsk1 Member Posts: 24
    I sell most of mine for much more than that. I have always wondered why dealers quote prices with destination separate. Tire fee?
  • millsk1millsk1 Member Posts: 24
    for everyone to take delivery of cars that are in stock? If I have a customer who agrees to a deal, I have them in that car immediately. I was just wondering if that is a regional thing. When I bought my boat, they wouldn't give it to me for two days! I was furious. You can buy a new car from me, finance it, and be gone in one hour in your new car.
  • montourmontour Member Posts: 1
    Does anyone know, if you can order a Honda with Daytime Running Lights, or get them installed by the dealer..
  • mickeywdwmickeywdw Member Posts: 12
    Thanks to everyone for a great board. We just picked up our new Civic EX with side airbags. It is silver and so far so good. We bought it for $16,295 plus tax and tags. We are excited and hoping for 10 years of safe driving. Thanks!
  • spiffyclagalspiffyclagal Member Posts: 4
    Thanks, millsk1...
    I have no idea why the destination fee is separate...
    the Tire fee is a California thing ($1/new tire) to help pay for dealing w/ old tires that pile up at the dump, etc.
  • alyssazmomalyssazmom Member Posts: 142
    I have a 2002 Honda Civic EX Sedan that I've had since Jan. 02. I went to www.handaaccessories.com and am interested in the sunroof wind deflector, the leather steering wheel cover, all season floor mats (winters here in VA) and maybe the cargo linger or cargo net.

    My questions are:

    1) Does the wind deflector really work? I'm not sure how I like the looks of it on the car itself but when I have my sunroof open, it does get loud at higher speeds.

    2) Was the leather wrap easy to install?

    3) Same for the liner?

    4) Is the cargo net a pain to use?

    5) Should I have all of these installed by the dealer? Should I purchase through the dealer or online?

    On a different note, I went to pick up my car from Rosenthal Honda (oil change) and the man that brought my car around had either just spit his gum out or someone else had just done it. Either way, I missed seeing it and it ended up on the bottom of my shoe which of course, ended up on my carpet floor mats...grrr.... should I insist that Rosenthal replace the mat? I can't get it out, I tried. It's dried now but looks bad.

    Thanks,

    Carrie
  • dabimmerdabimmer Member Posts: 165
    Try Ice cubes on the gum to freeze it and it 'll come off pretty easily.............
  • lngtonge18lngtonge18 Member Posts: 2,228
    I thought Civic owners would be interested in this article I found in an Acura owner magazine. It showed the result of an offset impact between a Civic and the much larger and heavier Acura 3.5RL at a combined speed of 50 mph (each car was travelling at 25). The Civic did amazingly well, with the passenger compartment completely intact. It was pretty impressive to see it hold up so well to a heavier car.
  • mickeywdwmickeywdw Member Posts: 12
    When we bought our Odyessy 3 years ago after the first service, the rugs had grease on them from the service people. When I pointed it out, they were apologetic and offered to detail it at the next service which they did. I would ask your dealership to the same for the gum.

    Good luck
  • bjk2001bjk2001 Member Posts: 358
    Carrie (aka Alyssazmom)

    1. Sunroof wind deflector. I have the same question.

    2. Learther steering wheel wrap. It's very easy to install. All you need just a pair of needle nose pliers and a pair of leather gloves. I installed it on my 01 Odyssey twice, I installed 1st time I didn't pull it tight so had to undo then redo again. It took me about 1 1/2 hours. keep in mind when you thread it thru the holes you have to pull it tight.

    3. Cargo tray is just drop in. I bought it from hondaparts4you.com it's cheapest place for cargo tray. I bought 1 for my Odyssey and 1 for my Civic.

    4. Cargo net. I didn't buy one for Civic but my odyssey came with one. Like you said it's kinda pain to use it. Since its right at the end of the trunk, Everytime you need to load stuffs in the trunk you either have to remove the net or go over it. Don't recommend.

    5. Don't pay Dealer to install them. You could install it yourself. Handa accessories give you good instruction for Sunroof wind deflector. Let's say, once you bought the sunroof visor and decide its too much for you to install it yourself. You could always take it to dealer and ask them to install it for you. When you go to dealer, service department typical has to buy parts from Parts department. This case you just ask service dept to install for you. No parts department invovled.

    These are just my 2 cents,

    Bjk
  • rfruthrfruth Member Posts: 630
    *every* time I get in my Civic (00 5 speed hatch) & turn on the A/C (lots) I turn the temp control switch just off the coldest setting figuring a little better fuel economy less wear & tear on the compressor etc and the owners manual is worded like that anyway Jason says nope the compressor is on or off there is no thermostat and that stands to reason this is a Civic there is no max A/C setting auto climate control there's an A/C switch (on or off) temp and fan control that's it I got home from the airport and asked a neighbor who owns a small fleet of trucks and asked him, before I even got the question out of my mouth he was shaking his head (that Jason is correct the car doesn't have the smarts to cycle the compressor as needed) when you answer and hope that you do say turn that baby as cold as it will go cause I will. Rob in Houston
  • mdrivermdriver Member Posts: 385
    Turning the thermostat one setting from max cold to save wear and tear on the compressor is like tuning off the engine at a red light to increase engine life. Makes no difference. Turn the A/C up as high as you want.
  • jrct9454jrct9454 Member Posts: 2,363
    ...by setting the temp control higher, all you are doing is mixing HOT air from the heater box with the COLD air from the AC. You are not reducing the workload of the AC compressor one bit. All systems work this way - any temp setting other than max cold is maintained by, in effect, turning on the heater to mix with the air from the AC. At this time of year, that makes no sense at all....
  • alyssazmomalyssazmom Member Posts: 142
    Thanks for your reply!

    I spoke to my brother about the wind deflector and he swears it lowers wind noise significantly. So I think I will get that one along with the leather steering wheel wrap.

    I spoke ot Rosenthal and they will not replace or clean my floor mat because it can't be proven that a Rosenthal employee spit the gum out and not a customer. I tried ice and that didn't work. It's dried now and there's nothing I can do to fix it at this point...That'll teach me to watch where I'm walking and not ogle at my Civic, lol.

    I am going to avoid the trunk net but the trunk liner is a coin toss for right now.

    Carrie
  • bjk2001bjk2001 Member Posts: 358
    Carrie:

    You are welcome. Sorry to hear about your misfortune gum problem on your carpet. You could get rubber all weather mats to cover it.
    I strong suggest trunk tray. I just read a post from Ody's board that someone's mom forgot to close gasoline can tightly so some gasoline was spilled in the trunk. Kinda messy smell and pain on the your know what to clean it.
    One day my daughter took her grandmom to supermarket grocery shopping and she refused to put shopping bag with meat products in her trunk, she was scared the blood/water will drain out from the shopping bag and run all over her brandnew Civic trunk. Since she has trunk tray now she feels much relax about grocery shopping.
    As my experience, I took my old beagle to vet one day to get some shots. I put her in my Ody trunk and when I got home guess what I found. She did her "things" in there. I was soo happy I had trunk tray. All I did was took it out and rinse it with garden hose, then put it back. It save my day.

    Regards,

    Ben
  • alyssazmomalyssazmom Member Posts: 142
    You have a very strong case for me to get the trunk tray, lol. I do plan on getting the wind deflector, leather steering wheel wrap, now the trunk tray (how can I not after your post? lol) and most likely the all season floor mats in a few months.

    Thanks again!

    Carrie
  • bjk2001bjk2001 Member Posts: 358
    You are very welcome.

    I am thinking to get sunroof wind deflector and leather steering wheel cover. I showed her wheelskin leather steering cover they are selling aftermarket with two tone one. I like two tone but my daughter likes Honda original black one. So we will see maybe I will get them after summer when she goes to college. hehehehe.

    My daughter likes her new Civic very much. She was very happy until her best friend got a brand spanking new Lexus IS 300 loaded with leather, CD changer,... a few weeks ago. It took me a while but I was finally able to convince her that Civic EXis a bette car than IS 300 for her age. Insurance is cheaper, cheaper to maintain, uses less gas and ...... since she has to pay for her gas and stuffs now. LOL.

    Now the trouble is I don't see her that often any more since school is over. She is still in bed when I go to work and she goes out to hang with her friends in the aftrenoon till ..... I probably need to put a lojack on her car so I know where she goes now. LOL

    Ben
  • alyssazmomalyssazmom Member Posts: 142
    Yeah, freedom in a new car is hard to beat!

    Thats great she still likes it! A Honda Civic EX Sedan is absolutely more appropriate for a teenager or young adult. Hands down, have to agree!

    Carrie
  • doverdamdoverdam Member Posts: 3
    I have a 2002 Honda Civic EX Sedan (auto) - the a/c worked well for a while but just in the past two days, in 90 -95 temps. outside it is not cold anymore - merely cool, even when I have the fan turned all the way up. I do not understand about compressors or different settings - all I know is that when I pushed the a/c button the green light did come on, but the best it could produce was cool not cold air. I do not have time or patience to go thru 1,975 messages to find out if I am alone - this is my first time using this msg. board - is there a space or blank on the designated make of car where I can type in the problem or subject such as "air conditioning problems" and there will pop up the no. of the message(s) that pertains to this? Thanks for the help - hot and wishing I had kept my trusty 1990 Corolla with its icy cold air!
  • alyssazmomalyssazmom Member Posts: 142
    My 2002 Honda Civic EX Sedan (auto as well) only is giving cool air not cold. I'm in Northern Va and the past two days it has been in the 90's. I plan on calling Rosenthal for an idea of why its doing this but right now don't have the time to take it in. But just wanted you to know that you aren't alone!

    Carrie
  • bugrad94bugrad94 Member Posts: 3
    I have a 2002 Honda Civic EX/automatic 4-door with 18,000 miles. I want to trade the vehicle in, but because it is so new, there is no online services that can advise me on its trade-in value. Can you help me? I am ballparking around $14,500 - $14,750. Is that range reasonable?
  • alyssazmomalyssazmom Member Posts: 142
    I would go to http://www/kbb.com and see what the 2001's are going for then inflate your price a bit.


    Just curious but why are you selling your car? I have the exact same one...


    ~Carrie

  • gasguzzgasguzz Member Posts: 214
    Trade-in is essentially wholesale. No way you can come out ahead at the dealer on an '02.
    Do a private sale for the best bang (with its associated probs).
  • alyssazmomalyssazmom Member Posts: 142
    Your post about Cananda/Japan/US made Civic's made me question where mine was made. I thought it was made in Ohio. My vin starts with a 1HG. Any idea?

    Thanks again,

    Carrie
  • jrct9454jrct9454 Member Posts: 2,363
    Start by checking the invoice for a NEW car of the same model. This is what a dealer pays, less holdback, for getting a new one to sell. Then ask yourself what YOU would discount the car for beyond that if you were a dealer looking to buy your car.

    My rule of thumb is to take the current invoice for a 2002 Civic EX [about $16.7k] and subtract current dealer incentives, holdback, and about 10-15 cents a mile, assuming otherwise perfect condition. That results in a figure very close to the lower of the range you are quoting.

    And then remember this: "value" is just a word that describes what a willing buyer and willing seller have decided to agree on at any moment in time. Take the car to a few dealers, offer it for sale, and you will have your answer. About 50% of the time, I don't "trade" cars in the traditional sense when I buy, but sell it either on the private market or by shopping it to new car dealers of the make I'm selling. This always results in a fair price, even if it isn't as high as you were hoping.
  • jrct9454jrct9454 Member Posts: 2,363
    The VIN you describe sounds like an Ohio car. If it were from Japan, there would be a J in the first 3 digits. But how the Ohio and Canadian plants are distinguished would require someone who has a Canadian car to tell you. I'm 100% sure yours is North American built, and 51% sure it came from the Ohio plant.
  • bjk2001bjk2001 Member Posts: 358
    Carrie:

    You are right. I think "1" is Ohio, "2" is Canada, "J" is Japan and "S" is England I am guessing this one now.

    My 01 Odyssey was assembled in Canada it starts with 2H. 02 Civic was assembled in Japan it starts with JH. Your 02 Civic is asembled in Ohio it starts with 1HG, and I remembered (if my memory serves me correctly, you know due to old ages :-) ) I saw a black Civic Si which was assembled in England starts with S 2 months ago. I just checked my dealer's inventory all their Civic Si start with S. So my guess "S" is from England. Final Answer.

    Have a good day,

    Ben
  • britton2britton2 Member Posts: 305
    if your VIN starts with a 1 or a 4 - it was made in USA, if it starts with a 2, it was made in Canada - if it starts with a J, Japan - I think this is right. My old '86 Honda Civic was made in East Liberty, OH - a darn good car - served me well for almost 15 yrs.
  • alyssazmomalyssazmom Member Posts: 142
    Thanks Ben, britton2 and jrct!

    ~Carrie
  • lab63lab63 Member Posts: 6
    Hello everyone. Need a new car. The old 1989 Corolla with 141,000 miles on it is kaput! Can't decided between another Corolla (2003) or a 2002 Civic. Am looking for any opinions on which car they think will give me less problems. I am leaning toward the Civic, because 4 dealers around town say I have wait 6-8 weeks to get a Corolla. Any suggestions will be welcomed! Thanks everyone
  • jrct9454jrct9454 Member Posts: 2,363
    Don't know where you live, so don't have any insight about why it would take 6 weeks to get a Corolla. That said, here are my observations:

    First, you don't break this tie based on long-term ownership considerations. If you are planning on keeping a car a long time, then neither of these cars has a big advantage either in reliability or long term ownership costs. The Civic is cheaper to own for about the first 5 years because of resale value - after that, it doesn't matter much.

    Second, the chief differences are the classic Honda vs Toyota points: the Civic handles a little better, but you have to step up to an EX to get such things as a height adjust on the driver's seat and other small niceties. The Corolla has a little more power, has a better highway ride, and is a bit more refined in most respects. It also now has a measurably larger trunk, and a bit more useable room in the back seat.

    Right now, the economics probably favor the Civic, if all other things are equal: they are being heavily discounted in all markets, and as you have noted, are thick as thieves on the lots. On the other hand, we broke the tie by buying an '03 Corolla LE automatic with cruise control as the only option, and paid $15.6k in Sacramento CA back in March. After 3000 miles, I am even more convinced we did the right thing FOR WHAT WE WANTED, which was a little softer ride and a little more refinement over what I felt in the Civics we drove.

    In the past 3 years, I've also recommended and helped buy Civics for friends and family, so I really do regard myself as pretty neutral. It really depends much more on what you currently value most in the driving experience, than any advantage either car has for the long haul. It's hard to make a mistake here, at least now that Toyota has so dramatically remade the current gen Corolla.

    Buy the Civic because it's what you prefer, or because it's easier to get - but not because it will give you fewer problems, because my experience just doesn't see those kinds of differences.
  • bjk2001bjk2001 Member Posts: 358
    Go for Civic EX, its cheaper and available. In a long run resale value even after 10-15 years Civic will still be better than Corolla (probably not much). 03 Corolla price is higher now due to new model. Wait for a year, Corolla will get deep discounted like other Toyotas. For past history both cars have good reliability. Since Corolla is a new model year reliability prediction is a "little" guessing. Someone may argue Civic also could have lemon. Since you need a car fast go with Civic.

    regards,

    bjk
  • britton2britton2 Member Posts: 305
    I'd go for the Corolla - for these reasons:

    has a timing chain - not a belt
    has a better powertrain warranty (at least the '01's did)
    costs less
    looks like a more expensive car (a baby Lexus)

    having said that - get the Civic if you can't or don't want to wait for the Corolla - I drove one for a long time (14 1/2 yrs) so I having nothing bad to say about them - except to say that I think Toyota makes a better automatic tranny.
  • bjk2001bjk2001 Member Posts: 358
    britton2:

    1. 02 Civic timing belt needs to replace @ 110,000 miles or 7 years.

    2. You are right. Honda warranty for powertrain is 3 years 36,000 miles Toyota is 5 years 60,000 miles.

    3. Corolla costs less.- Not right now, maybe one year from now. We bought our 02 Civic Ex April $16,400 out of the door. One of our friend bought her 03 Corolla LE this month (no sunroof) $18,000 not sure she has ABS or not.

    4. Corolla looks like a more expensive car (a baby Lexus) IMHO Corolla is mimicking VW Jetta.- Baby lexus is IS300. Also if you scroll the posts back maybe 1 month you can read discussions that Honda is selling US Civic EX model in Canada as Acura EL. (Entry Level Luxury Car). So Civic EX "is" Entry Level Luxury Car already.

    These are just my two cents. Have a nice day,

    bjk
  • britton2britton2 Member Posts: 305
    I respect your 2 cents! But I disagree about the new Corolla looking more like a VW Jetta - to me it is more Lexus-like - I do believe that the '03 Corolla is priced less than the similarly equipped '02 Civic - also, it is priced less than the '02 Corolla and the '02 was priced less than the '01 - it is my understanding that a timing chain is more durable than a belt - I'm glad to see that you can go 110,000 miles now before having to replace the belt - years ago they recommended it be replaced at around 60,000K I believe - it was a very difficult choice for me last year when it came down to the Civic or the Corolla - and if I am mistaken about my numbers then I stand corrected - have a nice day to you as well.
  • jrct9454jrct9454 Member Posts: 2,363
    ...to the extent that price is the question, we bought our '03 Corolla LE automatic with cruise in March for $15.6k in NorCal.

    Some dealers are offering Civic EX automatics for $16-16.5k right now, because of dealer incentives and a general glut of cars on the lots. But, like politics, all pricing is local...
  • alyssazmomalyssazmom Member Posts: 142
    First let me say that I LOVE my Honda Civic, however...

    I wonder if I got a lemon. I bought the car in Jan. 2002. Since then it has been in for repairs in this order:

    1) Right rear passenger door broke. Was fixed in a week.

    2) Right rear passenger seat belt broke. Was fixed in a week.

    3) Steering wheel squeaks when turned. They could not find the problem therefore, can not fix it.

    4) The sunroof rattles. An annoyance but not a mechanical failure...

    5) My Civic is yet again in the shop because the a/c has pretty much stopped working all together. It blows out lukewarm/cool air but not cold air. Rosenthal updated me this morning, that there is a problem, they just can't find it to fix it.

    That's 5 problems in 6-7 months. While non except the steering wheel squeak and sunroof rattle are repeat problems, I'm surprised that I've had problems within the first months of ownership.

    Family members suggest I start acting on VA's lemon law but I feel that's too hasty. However if I DID get a lemon, I'd hate to know what I'll be paying out of pocket in 2 1/2 years.

    Any advice?

    Thanks,

    Carrie
  • bjk2001bjk2001 Member Posts: 358
    Carrie;

    Wow I am very sorry to hear you have all those problems with your Civic. I would document all your trouble, put a spread sheet out the time and date, how long does it take to fix or not fixing it. Your family is right, start acting on VA lemon law, each state is different. I would send a copy of the problem to Honda see if they will buy it back or change another Civic for you. Keep in mind, "squeaky wheel gets the oil". Did you get a survey phone call from Honda right after you bought your car? Maybe you should call Honda and tell them you will change your survey from Very satisfies customer to very pissed off customer now.

    Make sure you got everything taken care before your 12 months/12,00 miles bumper to bumper warranty.

    regards,

    ben

    PS: If Honda is willing to give you a new Civic, try to get one start with a "JH".
  • jrct9454jrct9454 Member Posts: 2,363
    When this happened on our $50k Mercedes E sedan, I was able to fix it by going to the spot where the steering column penetrates the firewall inside the car, and manipulating the boot that covered the opening. Don't know how Honda does this with the Civic, but a good look at both the cabin and engine side of the area in the firewall where the steering column goes would be a worthwhile place to start investigating.
  • vocusvocus Member Posts: 7,777
    I thought it to be weird that you took back a used 2000 VW Jetta to Carmax because it had so many service problems and bought a Civic because you heard they were reliable. Now you have all these problems with the Civic. Crazy.
  • lab63lab63 Member Posts: 6
    what a great response from everyone about what I should do between the Civic & Corolla. jrct9454, I live in New York and the four dealers I have gone to or called so far (within a 30 mile radius) have told me they have no Corollas and that I would have to wait 4-6-8 weeks for one. One dealer didn't even have a car for me to test drive! Your price of $15.6k is better than I got. I got a quote of $15.8k w/o any extra options. Since tomorrow is Saturday, will hit the dealers and see how I come out! Any thoughts on the Matrix or should be asking that in another Town Hall?
  • alyssazmomalyssazmom Member Posts: 142
    Is there a board here you don't lurk at? ;)

    That Jetta had been in 9 (!) times in one year according to the service records at Stohlman VW. If you found that out and had the opportunity to take the car back, wouldn't you? And all of the problems were electrical and window related.

    I spoke to my attorney and was told to write a very nice letter to Honda directly through their website. He's handled a few lemon cases and said that the cordial approach along with avoiding the dealer altogether, is the best approach. So I will gather my receipts and e-mail them when I get home from work.

    I really love my Civic so I HOPE this is the last of my problems. Rosenthal called and the car is ready. I was told that they did not fix a part but if it doesn't get cold, I am suppose to close all of the vents, let the engine cool off for a few minutes then reopen the vents and make sure the circulation button is pressed. *sigh*

    Overall I adore my Civic and still hope to get that 100,00 miles out of it...

    ~Carrie
  • bjk2001bjk2001 Member Posts: 358
    Carrie:

    I asked my daughter regarding her A/C. We are here 90-100 F in sunny California. She told me it works fine at the beginning it's not cold but after a while it gets cold. Keep in mind I am asking a 17 years old and this is her first car. I think your dealer kinda making an excuse to get an easy way out of a problem they have no idea how to fix it yet.

    Owner's manual will tell you to press in re-circulation button first till it is cold then then press the exchange air button to have fresh air comes in. My Ody EX with full auto air. It will turn on re-circulation button by itself when it needs to cool down fast then switch to ambient fresh air.

    My question to the dealer is how are you supposed to open the vents on passenger side if you are driving by yourself? With a 10 feet pole? LOL. I just think a few things to ask "Have they checked HCFC-134A pressure inside your A/C unit or not? How about A/C relay function does it kick in ok? . Maybe you should ask them " If they put a thermometer at the vent, what's the specific temperature supposed to be" There is another possibility maybe A/C fan belt is loose so compressor doesn't push hard enough?

    Anyway good luck, it's my lunch time now.

    bjk
  • jrct9454jrct9454 Member Posts: 2,363
    Yes, that sounds like a tough situation - here in Calif, there are plenty of cars to be had in any large metro area.

    I'm way, way, way off of my turf here, so all I can suggest is to go further afield [Philly, DC, upstate, Jersey, Wilmington?] if you get seriously interested in the Corolla as opposed to the Civic.

    Of course, a heavily discounted EX Civic is a great car in this class...we didn't have the need to make the choice based solely on availability, so for the reasons already on the table, we bought the Toyota [which was not sitting on the lot, by the way - I asked one of the local dealer's Internet guy to get me a car out of their allocation - it took about 3 weeks from the time we did the deal over the telephone until the car arrived from NUMMI].

    LEs are still not common on dealer lots, but they are out there in CA. On the other hand, urban Honda dealers are choking on their inventory, so almost anything goes when it comes to price.
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