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Add sunroof, cargo convinience, Mach radio, side airbags... it tops $30K before rebates and discounts
The 4 valves per cylinder is Honda's early 80's technology. Honda has moved on to variable intakes, variable valve lift duration and timing.
CR-V is purchase, Escape is a lease. She has been burnt by Ford resale a few times. We both bought new 2002 Civic and 2002 Focus. Both cost about $14K new. My trade in on the Civic was $12,500, her trade in on the Focus was about $6K. I tried to convince her to go with Honda, but she is a Ford gal.
Steve, Host
We need to clear some conceptual confusion here that Duratec represents the family name of Engines that Ford has been manufacturing. So the Duratec engine you have seen in Contour 10 years ago is not the same Duratec engine comes with Ford 500 or Escape.
So if you refer to specific aspects of CRV engine then we can start to have meaningful comparison.
Ummm, I thought he mentioned "variable intakes, variable valve lift duration and timing", which are all (relatively) new capabilites of the Honda I4 engine. Does the Escape have these features?
The CarsDirect.com price for this vehicle is $24,533.
As for the pricing debate, I think a much more useful metric is simply the CarsDirect.com price for similarly equipped vehicles. scape2's citations of newspaper ads in his town are not useful because these are almost always 2WD vehicles with few if any options. Also note that Ford is now making 2.3L 4-cylinder versions of the XLT, even the 4WD XLT. A fair comparison is a V6 Escape vs the CR-V, given that Honda's 4-cyl is more powerful than Ford's 4-cyl, and that the CR-V has a 5-speed auto vs. the Escape's 4-speed. There's really not much reason to consider a 4-cyl Escape.
The CarsDirect.com price (or the Edmunds TMV price) is a reliable snapshot of roughly the best price you could negotiate for a given vehicle, and includes all current rebates. You could probably get a bit lower than CarsDirect.com's price, especially if you simply ask a dealer to beat it, but not much lower.
To compare to the CR-V EX, omit the MACH audio system and towing package from the above maxed out Escape XLT 4WD V6. It's MSRP is now $26,935 and the CarsDirect.com price is $23,505. A CR-V EX Auto, which is AWD by default, and comes standard with side curtain airbags and a power roof, lists at $24,065 and CarDirect.com offers it at $22,517. This is a grand less than the Escape. The Escape is not cheaper. It might be better to some, but it is not cheaper.
As for scape2's assertion that an Escape Limited's MSRP tops out at $28k or so, it actually lists at $30,065 with all factory options.
These prices all include destination charges and are based on an Arizona zip code. I doubt that regional differences are significant.
In other news, I think the Escape is falling behind on the feature front. I tested Kia's new Sportage and the Hyundai Tucson. They both have rear under-floor storage, overhead consoles, side curtains, etc. all standard in the trims I tested. The most recent Escape I looked at was barren of all these, and cost more.
Do you have everything your neighbor has?
I did a little search over the Internet and this is what I found:
Duratec has 4 valves per cylinder too and features fracture-split forged powder metal connecting rods, does CRV's I4 has this? OR, does it make sense for CRV to have it?
Duratec utilizes a technology to connect passage between the two halves of the intake manifold over each bank of cylinders that can be open or closed to vary plenum volume, and despite the absence of any sort of variable valve-timing scheme....."
The point is, every manufacturer has a way of doing / accomplishing things, CRV I4 may have this, Escape Duratec may have that...
Escape's duratec is very capable of doing everything. It (3.0L) produces 200 HP/193 lb-ft torque and tows 3500 lbs. The other one (2.3L) makes 152HP/152 lb-ft and tows 1500 lbs.
I think it is fair to have price diffrence on the paper.
"To compare to the CR-V EX, omit the MACH audio system and towing package from the above maxed out Escape XLT 4WD V6. It's MSRP is now $26,935 and the CarsDirect.com price is $23,505. A CR-V EX Auto, which is AWD by default, and comes standard with side curtain airbags and a power roof, lists at $24,065 and CarDirect.com offers it at $22,517. This is a grand less than the Escape. The Escape is not cheaper. It might be better to some, but it is not cheaper."
I paid mine $22.5K + Tax, it is V6, XLT AWD, Side airbags, sunroof, side step bars etc. So which one is cheaper, getting a V6 vehicle for $22.5K or I4 vehicle for $22.5K?? :confuse:
Blue book is not widley used in my region, Black book, AKA Galvin's is used in NY more often than anything.
We sold the Focus privatley for $7K, she had to add $1000 to pay off her loan to release the lien. I highly doubt you can get an 2004 Focus SE with the options she had for $9K. Besides, we bought both of our cars in 2002, when the going price was what it was. You are MISSING A BIG POINT HERE, let me spell it out for you. I bought a Civic Si (top of th eline Civic), she bought Focus SE (middle of the line, but the only manual 4 door, not a stripped down version we could find in the region) Her's had a $1000 rebate and 0% interest offer, mine had no rebate and 1.9% interest offer. Civic cost $14.5K, Focus cost $14K. Fast forward to 30 months. Both cars have been equally driven, both have been maintaned by the book. I go for trade in appraisal at Honda and offered $11,500 as first offer, after negotiations it went up to $12,500. $14,500-$12,500=$2000 to drive the car for 30 months. She goes in to Honda to see what she can get, $5K at most. Ford was willing to give her $6K, no more. They offered $7K if she bought a used Escape. $14,000-$6000=$8,000 for the privilige to drive FORD for 30 months.
This is one of the reasons she decided to lease the Escape. It is guaranteed 45% depreciation (55% residual), even though it is inflated by Ford. I don;t think a 3 year old Escape with 30,xxx miles will sell for $12K. On the other hand a 2002 CR-V's with 36K sell for over $15K. Heck a 1999 CR-V with 70,000 miles sells for $10K the first day it is advertized.
I don't know about Honda sales hurting, GM is offering employee pricing and there is chatter on the internet that Ford will in July. I wonder if Ford is doing it out of its good nature, or because the sales have slumped? I wonder why Ford has to offer rebates on such finely engineered and produced vehicles, while Honda does not. I wonder...
Honda is leading by -14.7 %
http://www.forbes.com/associatedpress/feeds/ap/2005/06/02/ap2072129.html
http://www.autoblog.com/entry/1234000390034967/
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2005-06-01-may-sales_x.htm
And it is hard for me to take $14.5K as for price of Civic Si. Civic Si, costs more than that. for $14.5K, you can buy only LX.
Busineess Week Online article talks about that...
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/04_21/b3884079.htm
And below lines are from above link
"And Honda had to set aside $369 million to cover recall and warranty costs for 600,000 SUVs and minivans with transmission problems. "Honda's situation in the U.S. isn't so good right now," says Yoshio Watanabe, an analyst at Mizuho Securities Co."
I like to hear some comments from CRV crowd here...
Steve, Host
Very true. And just because something works on one engine doesn't necessarily mean that it will have the same impact on another design.
Having said that... 200 hp and 193 ft-lbs is not much for a 3.0L engine. Mazda has added VVT and gets 225 from the same engine block. Honda uses a 3.0 to get 250hp and the engine is silky smooth compared with the Duratec.
This is comparing apples with oranges. If your only measures when buying a vehicle are towing weights and acceleration times, then yes, the Escape is a better buy. I'd argue that if you were really into power, though, you haven't done your research, because the Escape is a mouse next to the Jeep Liberty, especially the CRD, in terms of power.
Regardless, the "cheaper" car, when prices are even, is the one with the better resale. Ford has to offer rebates, which hurt resale, to get people to buy Escapes, while Honda, which has a better resale value to begin with, doesn't. Therefore, in terms of strictly monetary value, the Honda is the far better (and smarter) purchase.
Honda is leading by -14.7 %
http://www.forbes.com/associatedpress/feeds/ap/2005/06/02/ap2072129.html
http://www.autoblog.com/entry/1234000390034967/
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2005-06-01-may-sales_x.htm
And it is hard for me to take $14.5K as for price of Civic Si. Civic Si, costs more than that. for $14.5K, you can buy only LX.
It was advertized in the paper at $15K. I walked in asked if they would sell it for $14, they sold it for $14,500. There are people on the board spicific to the new Si who have paid as low as $13,800 for the 2002 Si. LX is bread and butter car, and it comes with auto, which is like air to some people. Si does not come with auto and I lived in a NYC suburb, where most people are not even aware of what manual transmission is. (exaggeration, but closer to truth that you would think)
Don't forget that Honda has a little naturally aspirated gem that makes 240 horses out of a 2.0 liter 4 cylinder engine. Of course no one would put that in an SUV, but that car can compete with other cars in its category, such as Miata and BMW Z3.
C'mon varmint you know the Duratec matches that in other brands like Jaguar. The Duratec30 in the S-Type used to make 240+ HP and is just as smooth as Honda's 3.0L.
FWIW the Mazda version makes 220 HP but only 193 ft-lbs of torque. I have one and I'm not complaining. However, Ford is dropping the Duratec30 into the Fusion, Mercury Milan, and Lincoln Zephyr. So far the Lincoln is the only one to announce that it too will have 220 horses but not from the same method as the Mazda. The Lincoln, as well as the other two, will use i-VCT (Intake variable cam timing) which works on the intake only to bump it's horse power to 220, whereas the Mazda uses VVT on both intake and exhaust. The biggest difference is in the torque dept. The three new one's will make 200 ft-lbs as opposed to the Mazda's 193. A small bump, but a bump nonetheless and it shows that you don't need all those big acronyms to make more power.
Now before I go too far with this, the Ford and the Mercury are still listing 210 HP and 200 ft-lbs as their numbers. We'll have to wait and see what the final numbers are I guess. I just felt an example was needed in this discussion.
Yes, but that little gem comes at a high price compared to the Miata. I'd much rather have the MAZDASPEED Miata with a blower and have fun all through the rev range. I've never driven an S2000 but from what I've read it is extremely difficult to use all 240 horses due to the ridiculously high redline.
I think it's great that Honda did such a thing to prove it's engine building prowess, and it really is a great engine, but I'm not so sure it was such a good idea to put it into a production car. Racecar sure.
Then why were you quoting raw numbers? Show me where the Escape's V6 has a broader torque curve than the Accord's?
True enough. Spend $40K on a Jag or $20K for an Accord with a similar engine.
There are many areas where I would concede specific expertise goes to Ford, but engines is not one of them. Whenever you compare two engines of similar size and purpose, the Honda comes out on top in power, economy, emissions, and NVH.
I belive Jaguar S is supercharged, not naturally aspirated. It also cost twice the Honda.
Edit: Varmint beat me to it :-)
Nope. It's n/a just like the Honda and the higher price is NOT because of the motor. You're thinking of the S-Type R which has a supercharged 4.2L V8 that makes 390 HP.
FWIW the '05 S-Type Duratec30 only makes 235 HP but I think it makes more torque than it did before. The Lincoln LS and Jag X-Type versions are 232 HP and 227 HP respectively.
Yeap, you are right. :-)
My bad.
He claimed specific numbers. I rebutted. You said that specific numbers aren't necessarily the best measure and we should use a power curve. (I noticed you didn't correct Snowman on this point.) I said show me a curve.
If you are maintaining that the Ford engines are just as good (when graded on this curve), find me a curve illustrating that fact.
It is to some people. Unfortunately I'm not one of them.
He claimed specific numbers. I rebutted. You said that specific numbers aren't necessarily the best measure and we should use a power curve. (I noticed you didn't correct Snowman on this point.) I said show me a curve.
If you are maintaining that the Ford engines are just as good (when graded on this curve), find me a curve illustrating that fact."
What specific numbers you are talking about??
I just posted official HP and Torque numbers for CRV and Escape to make my point then suddenly found Accords, Jaguars, Jeep Liberties flying here...
Feel both you guys free to find and post the power curve of CRV and Escape.
Since this is CRV vs Escape forum, please don't bring any numbers from any other make model. CRV I4 vs Escape Duratec ONLY, please.
And Varmint, please give up referring to other models of Honda whenever CRV doesn't it cut it any more against Escape.
".... Honda uses a 3.0 to get 250hp and the engine is silky smooth compared with the Duratec"
Good for Honda, but this doesn't cut it anymore. THeir most basic cars (Civic, Accord) are the biggest loosers...Looks like consumers are looking something else in cars...
Accord sales shrunk 23.7%, Civic 24.7% compared to 2004 May. And this is not related gasoline prices....
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2005/06/01/110791.html
Well, I suppose that is true, but you should also note that those values are only for the month of May, and that the year to date numbers are somewhat better: Civic -13.8% and Accord -7.9%.
The honda light truck division is booming, up 14%. Eating someone's lunch there, probably GM and Ford. Ford truck sales are down -8.4%.
Let's return to the topic; we should note that CR-V sales are up by 5.4%, both monthly and year to date.
Here are the Ford Figures for the Escape: Month of May -39.5%, year to date -10.9%. At least it's better than the Explorer/Expedition, which are both down over 20%.
http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=20891&make_id=trust
A lot of that has to do with the fact that they have a brand new model in the lineup that didn't exist last year. Which ironically isn't doing as well as Honda had hoped out of the gate. Add +100% into the equation of any average and it's going to look better than it really is.
Despite the fact that I agree with the sentiment, I do not think it applies in this particular case. I listed two engines of the same displacement (a Mazda and a Honda) where VVT has been used successfully to improve the engine. Baggs listed a third for us (the Jag). Various VVT systems are being used by every major player in the automotive market. To be quite honest... as I'm writing this, I'm trying to think of another modern 3.0L which puts out less power than the one in the Escape, and I'm having a hard time coming up with an example.
So, based on the performance of its 3.0L peers, I would have to rate the Escape's Duratec pretty low. It's not an "ancient" engine, but I'd call it "dated" without reservation.
Now, if you feel the only way to measure an engine's performance is to compare it with other engines in similar cars, then we can do the CR-V versus Escape thing. The CR-V's I4 will run circles around the Escape's I4. Even with the more advanced valve technologies not available to the Duratec, the Mazda-derived I4 powering the Escape is no match for the CR-V's I4. The fact that we spend half our time in this thread comparing the CR-V's I4 to the Escape's V6 ought to tell you how well Honda's engines perform.
Sales for the Accord and Civic are not down because the engines aren't up to snuff in the area of technology. They are down for several reasons, but none of them have to do with lack of sophistication. Lack of incentives, cuts in production (in anticipation of the next generation Civic), increased competition in the segments from companies like Mazda, Nissan, Hyundai, and Subaru, lack-luster styling in the case of the Accord... All of that stuff plays a part in the performance of those two car lines. But lack of engine technology is not part of the game.
"A lot of that has to do with the fact that they have a brand new model in the lineup that didn't exist last year." - Baggs
The same can be said for Ford. The Freestyle is new to their lineup.
it is tuned to have a wide torque curve, not max peak horsepower. i don't see too many (any?) owner complaints about it.
I'd have thought with a sheet metal freshening plus some new transmission items, the 2005 would have done at least as well as 2004 (which it may yet; we won't know until 2005 is over).
Turning Radius: Escape 37.1, CR-V 34. I love how nimble the CR-V is in traffic and parking. To me, the Escape rides a bit better than the CR-V, maybe this impacts the turning radius.
Cargo room: Escape is about 7 cu feet less that the CR-V in both behind the rear seats and with the seats folded. And that is not counting the large well (a.k.a. "ice chest") beneath the CR-V cargo floor, which is probably another couple of cubic feet.
Rear Seat room: Escape: 36 in, CR-V 39 in. On long trips I often pull the CR-V seats forward a couple of inches, making them similar - but then I have almost 40 cu feet of cargo space.
Also, I'm not sure what the cost would be for a 7 year, 100K, no deductable extended warranty for an Escape. It cost about $900 for my CR-V.
Of course, I have no need of towing anything, so that factor is not important for me...
I'm always amazed at the packaging job Honda did on the 2nd Gen CR-V. Really efficient.
Some people will (no doubt) respond with their great deals on the Escape Limited V6; give it a day at most. So I suppose some people disagree.
If I recall correctly, Ford is showing a $2000 rebate (I think - through July 5th). Could be $1000, I'm not sure - I was looking at the Hybrid, which doesn't have a rebate.
Well, I think this practise was invented and grandfathered by Honda crowd here. Escape owners are told million times how Honda is doing well in terms of R&D, new models investments, reliability, resale etc, etc., whenever CRV can't prove otherwise by itself against Escape.
And if you please refer to post 6187, I already answered why I post Honda numbers, as a reaction to prove that consumers are selecting different brands, b/c they are price sensitive and they are aware of that majority of make and models are equal each other in terms of quality and many other factors.
Don't you find interesting Hyundai has not lost sales (gained little), Nissan gained lot in truck divison despite high fuel prices.
"But lack of engine technology is not part of the game. "
this is what I have been telling you in a different way, engine technology doesn't cut it anymore, cause others have similar technologies as well.
Also, Escape + Mariner + Tribute have combined sales of 97644 units, many more than CRV (58576 units YTD).
They also realize that if people in this segment really require towing, they'll go with the CRD or 3.7 liter Libertys, which isn't their competition. The Libertys tow more and get just as good or better mileage as the Escapes with a heavier platform and better offroad capabilities. The CR-V, on the other hand, is designed for young people and couples who desire safe all-weather driving, reliability, fuel efficiency, and superior interior space. They have their market pegged. I didn't buy a CR-V to do 0-60 or pull a camper, and Honda realizes most people don't.
Ford Escape more expensive than a CRV.. Looks like I am going to have to post prices, VIN#'s and dealership names again.. and again.. and again....
14.5K for a Civic Si.. no way, asked my friend who manages a Honda dealership and he laughed. 19K at least as new, was his response... Do you know what Civic EX's go for in my region? 19K!! Yep, 18,888. Honda fans scream and yell resale but they fail to show they cost more upfront. Another point to make is the low financing. For instance. I bought my 01 Escape with .9 percent financing for 3 years. My Escape is paid for! How many 01 CRV owners can say that!.. None because it wasn't available... LOL@!. I saved thousands in financing. Honda has not offered any great products that people want.