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Audi and Lexus get superior interior, both in design and in fit/finish. From leather quality, to stitches, to seat profile, to dashboard and liner plastics/inlays. There are options or configurations simply not available in common brand siblings:
- rear wheel drive sedans (Infiniti, Lexus);
- manual transmissions on big engines (Infiniti, previous generations of Audi);
- actual build quality (chassis stiffness, number of welds, stricter quality control procedures, etc.);
- suspension settings, both standard and sports versions of the brands;
- "same" engines are often tuned up to produce better power/torque (not all, of course, not always enough to actually notice);
- there is usually at least one generation of lag in availability of certain convenience, performance or safety equipment, whether standard, or optional (e.g. HID adaptive lights, keyelss sensor entry/start and more) for those who desire them, of course.
I do not know if the price difference is fully justified to cover it, but it is ridiculous to say they are "the same cars". Similar would be a proper operative word. It is fair to say that 20 years ago those cars were much closer to each other than today - or so it seemed to me.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Of course everybody does the same thing. It's a market segmentation ploy, no more, no less. GM with it's rebadges, and now its divisions, has done it worse than most. What is different division cars in one country (TSX) is in a single division in another (Euro Accord).
It's more or less because often engines or quality of interior is changed, even if mostly the same vehicle. And of course higher-end dealers often give more perks and services. Warranties may vary. Etc.
Only the buyer can decide if it is worth it to them.
And without the track record of reliability that Lexus has proven year in and year out.
You say the ES is a tarted up Camry.
I say the Camry is an ES dressed in rags.
Well, for one, if you look in CR you'll see way more red dots than black dots for Audi, and about the opposite for VW. For two, VW dealerships have a bad reputation, not so for Audi dealerships, and furthermore, back in 2006 Audi was still giving free maintenance for 50K miles.
I recall walking into the showroom to eyeball a particularly pretty dark grey metallic one that was sitting there. Salesperson approached, asked if I liked it. I told him I didn't know much about them. I remember him clearly...."let's go familiarize you with it."
He pulled it out of the showroom and off we went. Again, it wasn't very fast (especially given that it was supposed to be a sports sedan), but it showed quality and smoothness I had never experienced before.
I had the inevitable question...."so, on this particular model, is there a price in mind you'd like to throw out there?"
He pointed to the sticker.
I countered..."so, if I said I was interested right now for....say....&1,000 off MSRP, you wouldn't take it?"
"NOPE"!
"$500 off?"
"NOPE"
$100 off?
"NOPE"
Contrast that to a year or so ago. I found an IS 350 (next gen from the one I had test driven years ago) that I was very mildly interested in. Went for a test drive again (same dealer, different sales person). Some of the same impressions I had originally...high quality, very smooth. But, this one had some "oooomph" under the hood.
Still, it really wasn't my cup of tea.
Big difference, the sales person threw out a number without me even asking that was almost $2K off MSRP.
Gotta admit, Lexus makes some very high quality cars. They seem to just miss the mark compared to others I might be in the market for at any given time.
1. 328i: 2272 gallons of premium at say $3.75/gal (number vary) = $8522 for five years.
2. 328d: 1705 gallons of diesel at say $3.90/gal (number vary) = $6647 for five years
Amount saved: $1874. Anticipated new car price difference: $3-$5K. The only other variable is depreciation. Say we get 5% better depreciation of 328d, say 55% vs. 60% of depreciation $26.4K vs. $27K.
In conclusion, not including higher taxes and financing (loan, lease), assuming MSRP as benchmark, 328d comes up overall $2500-$3000 less expensive over 5 years. To me it's nothing, especially because:
1. 328i will likely enjoy better discount at purchase than 328d
2. If leased, 328i will likely enjoy better money factor than 328d; lower residual may offset that.
3. People who keep their cars less than 5 years will see even smaller fuel savings.
4. Diesel prices are even more volataile than gasoline. It is easy to imagine increase of the difference in price per gallon by another 10 or 15 cents.
There are a lot of other factors that could make the calculus more attractive for the diesel, but there are many other factors that could offset that, too. This was intented to be a demonstration how I would make a calculation if I had all the data, including mixed mileage, trying to take emotion out and account for all variables, not just one that is visible (mpg). I completely understand the gas mileage focus. It is easy to let go and forget about the costs that are already "set", like car payments. They are planned and accounted in home budget, out of sight, out of mind. But the gas bill comes every week or so, varies, even though it is planned, it springs up all the time and every unplanned trip adds to the bill. So it is easy to think that if I save on gas, I will spend less money overall. But that may or may not be true. Without a cold meticulous calculation there is no way to tell. Yet people rush to "do something" in every time gas price jumps 30 cents.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Loaners- you will be surprised what some toyota dealerships are offering these days in regards to perks.
It's totally different from when I was in college and that's not too far back- the non luxury dealerships are getting more sophisticated.
That can be huge as one expensive fix can run 4 figures easily and if something is going to break, most likely it'll be in that "extra" year.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
I've been anxiously awaiting the introduction of a BMW diesel that was more representative of what's on offer in the rest of the world. This is a start, but it only comes with an automatic transmission, according to the on-line Roundel piece I read a few days ago.
All I want is a small diesel in a well-made car with a manual transmission.
Or, as Charles Shultz put it, I could flap my arms and fly to the moon.
A colleague recently purchased a Passat TDI manual and loves it...or a Mazda 6? Not in BMW league but I'd still classify as well-made.
Multigear automatic (like 8-speed) is absolutely transmission of choice for a diesel. IMHO, of course.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Agree with all of that although small diesels can be OK with an MT. Torque comes in very low down so they'll happily pull you up a cliff in what your mind tells you is too high a gear. ATs are better though. I have a Volvo S60 D5 (185) Geartronic. Nice combination.
I had 2x Peugeot 406's. Probably the best riding cars I've ever had. That was when Peugeot made great chassis/suspension set-ups. No more, it seems. That Pug diesel and the VW Group 1.9 TDi PD engines are the stuff of legend and probably did more to move Europe to small diesels than any other. The 130bhp 1.9 TDi PD in my old Skoda Fabia vRS was a brilliant combination in a light car, and the 6MT was just built for playing with the mountain of torque the engine produced. Happy days.
The only way to make up the price difference is to hold on to the car and drive the wheels off it. Currently diesel in phoenix is .40 cents less than premium. Do I expect it to stay like this, no, but the price fluxuates enough that it doesn't bother me. I have owned three diesel cars/trucks in my past 1986 MB SDL, and 1981 Chevy Suburban diesel and 1996 ram truck 2500 with the cummins diesel.. Both cars were driven well into the 200K miles range the truck 175K before it was sold.. The modern diesels have taken care of the short comings of those diesels.
Diesel's are not for everybody, just like Lexus, BMW and Audi's are not for everybody.
The 45 mpg is now mentioned on their website. I remain slightly skeptical, but if BMW learned VW lesson, perhaps it will be more accurate. VW made a huge blunder preanouncing in big letters over 50 mpg on the new Jetta and delivering nowhere near that number after EPA testing. I was joking that they must have mixed up kilometers per imperial gallon with mpg. It wasn't that bad, but the blunder was obvious. The embarrasment was so big that VW challenged their users to a survey on real life numbers. Talking spin doctors - Joe from Ohio says he got 56 mpg, so should you!
I also heard that EPA mpg number is based not just on real testing, but also on extrapolation calculations based on that testing. It is basically is a good predictor for traditional gas engines, but it reportedly completely breaks down on hybrids (overestimates mpg) and has some significant flaws on diesels (presumable underestimates). I don't know if that is really true, but it would make sense why some hybrids are so off when it comes to the mileage.
Many immediately smelled big conspiracies and foul play, but to me a botched methodology due to using calculations outside of their intended class of problem (happens all the time in engineering), seem much more reasonable explanation for the blunder. I simply don't think Toyota, Ford, or Honda were purposly misleading consumers. They simply run tests and calcs according to EPA guidelines, but those turned to be wrong for new technology.
I agree with your last statement - diesels are not for everybody. They definitely have their place in personal vehicle market (e.g. taxi cabs, SUVs, pickup trucks), especially for those traveling often large distances at constant speeds. American aversion was a bit overdone. However, they are not cure for cancer, either.
I wonder how much more 328d will cost. If they misprice it, they may kill it before it shows up.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
http://www.leftlanenews.com/bmw-328d-quick-spin-review.html
I think the d will be an interesting car- but the volume will come from the reg 328- the real question on the whole bmw line is how long they will be able to Charge so much more for less car - better options for 40k- I mean even the ugly TL has a sh-t load more standard, and can be had for a massive discount- awd and is larger and more powerful and will run a lot more with less maintence for thousands less then the avg 328- now we all know most 3s are leased but for those who keep cars 5 years why would you go new bmw?
I'm still amazed at some of the non standard features on a sudo lux car- it's amazing.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
The door's over there -- don't let it hit you on the way out.
As usual, I was a day late and a dollar short. By the time I was able to afford a BMW (actually purchased, to keep) things were headed down the chute. They don't miss me, but I sometimes pine for what might have been.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
In regards to price, I would assume base would be around 38-40K. It will be interesting to see where MB will price the C class diesel and GLK diesel. AS well as the Audi A4 Diesel, and from what I read the Audi TDI will have more HP 180hp and 240lbs... An interesting time for diesels in the US.
Really, really wanted one – and could afford one.
I was overruled by my then wife.
[ Bought a Volvo. ]
In mid-2011 I ordered a 335, for European Delivery.
It still had enough BMW-ness for me. Then.
I do NOT see a BMW that will likely tempt me when the lease is up, later this year.
‘down the chute’ in 2 years?
- Ray
Just one data point . . .
They keep moving ever so further away from the "sport" part of sports sedans/coupes.
‘down the chute’ in 2 years?
Good to hear from you, Ray.
They'll never miss us, but we will miss them, to some extent.
Oddly, my TSX offers me more involvement with the car than today's BMWs -- DIY-friendly owners' manual, nice manual transmission, real tires (with a spare) and a dipstick.
Nowdays it's necessary to have your BMW flatbedded to the dealer to get the battery replaced. That's kind of a big deal here in AZ where summer battery failure is a fairly regular occurrence. Granted, the battery's in the trunk and is unlikely to pack up for the person who leased the car, but my last car was like that and it required two battery replacements during the time I owned it. Both were performed by me where the car sat when it wouldn't start.
Then there's that electric steering thing.
G37 - Did not feel luxury at all. Also, not great in driving. So this is off my list now.
328 - Wow!! What a car. Loved the way it drove. Simply amazing. I would have bought this one except the size. Little too small for family of 5. So thought will drive 528.
528 - Not as good of a drive as 328, but still great. The price tag is very high. Was thinking should try out 535 since with v6, it might be a better drive for the bigger car, but again due to price shock did not even try it.
So now I am back to Lexus ES 350.
With what I have learned from this forum, now I am interested in trying the Avalon (limited). It come out about 2K less that lexus and also has wider backseat. So want to try it and see how it feels.
Another thing I have started to think about is to lease a MB. Will try the C250 and C350 and see how they feel and how big is the backseat.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
This was probably a typo on your part but the 535i, like all 6 cylinder BMWs, uses an inline six.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Like dino001 said, so many times we say we need cars for that "what if" that comes along once or twice a year.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
Think about it - if the car is really for you and only sometimes for the kids, 328 wagon could really be for you.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
first time BMW drivers usually have the same impression as you.
Do yourself a favor and test drive an Audi A4 and an Acura TL, too.
I find the opposite...when kids are sitting in a forward facing seat (booster, etc) their little feet stick straight out...marking up the previously beautiful seat backs. Maybe not legroom...but seat depth would help...or really really short seats so their legs could bend
2018 430i Gran Coupe
2018 430i Gran Coupe
BTW, it must be top of the line, because that rental from Hertz I drove (I was surprised myself that Honda sold a rental car) was unimpressive to say it charitably.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
A car is the chassis, suspension, interior and exterior materials and finishes, engineering, design, looks, handling, power, performance, Gas mileage, and refinement.
Some people buy bells, whistles, gadgets, and doo-dads. Some people buy the car. I'm in the latter group. After all, I got an Audi with just 2 options, DSG transmission, and Sport Package (admittedly that includes like 3 or 4 things).
You can add a million gadgets and options to a cheap car, it's still a cheap car with a lot of content.