Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

merc1 · April 2005

I'm off to see the new 3-Series at Soldier Field (Chicago) Tuesday. Should be fun.

M

buddhabman · April 2005

designman - In terms of handling the only car that can be considered to be more poised is the BMW 330i. Driving the old gen Legacy on twisty mountain roads was pure fun. The new Legacy GT with power can hold it's own with any of the cars in this segment. It's known for having one of the most stable driving feel on bumpy roads.

designman · April 2005

Bumpy roads and sport suspensions are like oil and water, so if a Legacy GT is good in that environment it is testament to its soft suspensionability to absorb shock. I will agree to disagree with you on this and I find that the reviews overrated it considerably.

kdshapiro · April 2005

"Bumpy roads and sport suspensions are like oil and water, so if a Legacy GT is good in that environment it is testament to its soft suspension.."

My 330 was great in that environment. Does it have a soft suspension?

I haven't test driven the Legacy, but test drove the Forester and Outback. Maybe they aren't up to BMW standards, but for many $$$ less they are darn close.

designman · April 2005

My 330 was great in that environment. Does it have a soft suspension?

Sorry to have to tell you this, your 330 is not great in that environment.

blueguydotcom · April 2005

Bumpy roads and sport suspensions are like oil and water, so if a Legacy GT is good in that environment it is testament to its soft suspensionability to absorb shock. I will agree to disagree with you on this and I find that the reviews overrated it considerably.

Totally agree with your last statement.

kdshapiro · April 2005

Do you live in NJ? Have you driven on our roads?

The Forester/Outback/330 had the same amount of teeth jarring. Which I found perfectly acceptable given the sporty nature of the cars. Conclusion: the suspensions of these vehicles have the same tautness, with the 330 (naturally) being the best tuned.

designman · April 2005

Doesnt matter where you drive, the Legacy GT handles like a boat whether its the Atlantic or Indian Ocean. Outback has a much tighter suspension. Forget about the Forester, it's not even on the map in the handling category. Leads me to believe that, like the Legacy, you haven't driven it.

kdshapiro · April 2005

Hmm. You may be right about the Legacy, I don't think I drove it, I drove the Outback, my impression was it was more trucky like. (I've driven so many they all blend in). But, surely the Forester XT will not outhandle a sedan. But for what it is, silky smooth shifter, power galore with the turbo, taut suspension, spacious cross-over, 5.3 to 60, LSD and $$$ less than an X3, it's a perfect vehicle for some. Heck, it'll blow past an FX45. Can you tell I had a blast driving it? The cabin noise from the windup of the turbo is right on the money. Although it clearly does not belong in the entry level segment, as the amenities are not up to others in the segment, it's a lot of bang for the buck.

And finally for those who dwell on such things, it's reliable and it got the IIHS best pick. Comparing it against a 330, no it's not all that, but you know what it's $15K less. And Subaru scrimped in the amenities, not the engine, handling or drivetrain.

jcj1 · April 2005

I need to make a purchasing decision in the next few days. I have narrowed the field down to two: an Infiniti G35 RWD Sedan or a Subaru Legacy GT LTD Wagon. I can get either car for $500 over invoice via the Costco program, and the two cars are within a couple of hundred dollars of each other with the options I want.

For the G35, I opt for RWD because I live in the California where there is no real need for AWD. I'd go with the AT because I feel the G35 accelarate more smoothly with the AT, while the 6MT is a bit notchy and also less practical for my daily commute.

For the Subaru, I opt for the Wagon because I love the oversize sunroof and the wagon is a bit roomier and also looks a bit nice (my personal opinion). Unfortunately the AT does not work well with the 2.5 Turbo in the Subaru, and the 5MT with STi short throw shifter and Momo shift knob is so much fun to drive that it reminds me of a Mazda Miata. So I think I'd go with the MT for the Subaru.

Now the questions:

1) My wife is a bit concerned about the durability of turbo engine as we plan to keep our car for a long time (We kept our last two cars for 10-15 years). Is this a good enough reason to stay away from the Subaru?

2) How is the predicted reliability of Subaru compared to Infiniti? This is our No. 1 priority. So far we only have experience with Honda and Toyota which have been pretty much trouble free. Can I expect the same level of quality and reliability from Subaru or Infiniti/Nissan?

3) Is $500 over invoice a good price for these cars? Is it worth bargaining for a price that is significantly better than Costco's?

Your help is most appreciated. Thanks!

kdshapiro · April 2005

Some thoughts:

1. cars with turbos in the long run are probably less problem free than cars without. In 15 years, who can tell what the reliability of a turbo car is? But in 15 years, what will be the reliability of the G35?

2. You can get a lot of reliability information from the annual car buyers issue of consumer reports. You can read the Subaru and Infiniti forums for some insight as to the types of issues people are experiencing.

3. I would starting negotiating under invoice and work my way up, rather than to work my way down.

Good luck

gordonwd · April 2005

In 7 years of ownership, the only major out-of-pocket expense on my A4 1.8T was a turbo-related repair that cost me about $600. So take that for what it's worth. But it is one reason why I downgraded the Saab 9-3 as a replacement for the A4: I just didn't want another turbo for long-term ownership (ended up with a 325i). Look under the hood and you'll see a lot of extra plumbing, sensors, controls, etc. that are related to the turbo. And the thought of something in there spinning at 20K RPM for years and years makes me cringe

.

shipo · April 2005

Back in the 1980s when Chrysler was the largest producer of turbocharged engines in the world, I had not one but two of their cars. Both were running strong at 100,000 miles when I traded them in, and I had no doubt that they would have continued to provide me with excellent service had I decided to keep them. Having said that, within my immediate sphere of family and friends, there were five other Mopar turbos that I was aware of, and each one of them required a turbo replacement within the first 75,000 miles (one needed two turbo replacements). The only difference that I could figure was that while we all followed the standard maintenance plan, I used Mobil-1 while the rest of them used whatever oil their dealership happened to use.

I switched to Mobil-1 from Castrol-GTX when I got my first turbo simply because I'd heard of bearing issues due to the oil being coked when the oil supply was abruptly cut off from the hot/high speed turbine bearings at engine shutdown. I reasoned that the Synthetic oil would be much more capable of resisting coking, and while my sampling of two isn't definitive, it was enough to cause me to use nothing but Mobil-1 in every car I've had since then.

Best Regards,
Shipo

gordonwd · April 2005

And on my A4 turbo they had a recommended oil-change interval of 5000 miles vs. 7500 miles for the 3.0 V6 model of the same car. Even with that, I heard that there were some issues with engine problems caused by the coking up of the oil if it was not changed on time or a substandard grade was used. I got a letter from Audi regarding this a few months after I had sold the car. Fortunately, I sold it to a friend of mine down the street, so was able to pass on the warning to him.

squirtdad · April 2005

I havn't seen much input on the small mecedes sedan, the c230 (supercharged, etc)

Does any on have any input on this one, especially compared to bmw 325 and Audi A4

thanks

potemkin · April 2005

Here's my two cents: I test drove two '05 C230's back in November. One was a sport coupe with an automatic. The other was a sport sedan w/6 speed manual. I drove the auto first* and was dismayed by the noticeable lag on take off. The 6 speed, on the other hand, had no noticeable lag and I couldn't tell the difference between it and a normally aspirated six. As far as the shifter goes, it was silky smooth, quick and short. The road holding was good, but a little softer than I'm used to (though not as soft as MB's reputation for a soft ride).

* I had no intention of buy an automatic, it's just that they didn't have any sticks on the lot when I went looking.

You're welcome.

P.S.: For what it's worth, I wound up buying a '05 325i ZSP in January. Never drove the A4 -- I have an aversion to FWD.

twodogjohnny · April 2005

I just sold my 04 WRX, and got an 05 G35X.
The WRX is something like 227hp, the legacy is 250hp with half a litre more displacement.
4cyl vs. 6cyl: you are going to be reving that subaru above 3k to keep it in the powerband. The low end is real hard to find with the subaru.
The subaru manual transmission is like shifting a tractor.

I always felt like I was racing and working hard while driving the WRX. I just push the pedal and cruise along with the G35. Power is always there when you need it.

-johni

kdshapiro · April 2005

I understand and am not debating that point. I was only pointing out that after a test drive or two I understand why there is almost a cult like following for the cars. They are not entry level luxos. But the drivetrain is beyond reproach and the shifter is silky smooth.

The Forester for example was clocked at 5.3 to 60 by C&D with only 210 hp. Like the Bimmers these cars are sleepers. But again I realize the luxury factor is not up to their bigger cousins.

gordonwd · April 2005

That's the "problem" with getting into the luxury segment: you get spoiled by all the features that you did quite well without when you didn't know about them

. Two cars ago I owned a Sentra SE-R that I thought was a really great car -- sort of the early 90's equivalent to the WRX in being a pocket-rocket, sleeper type of compact car. When I got my A4, I suddenly woke up to all the features that I didn't have in the Sentra: power windows, climate control, great stereo, and on and on.

Now I don't think I can go back to what now seems like a stripped-down car like the Sentra, and in retrospect even my A4 seems like it was lacking compared to my 325i (how did I ever get along without memory power seats??

). And I just read a road test the other day of a car in this segment, and the reviewer knocked it down because it had heated seats but no heated steering wheel, if you can believe that!

kdshapiro · April 2005

I agree 98%. After living with a 3 series for a few years, I got very spoiled. I like the extra luxo stuff, no doubt. However, I realized the loaded Outback would be quite acceptable to me as would the Forester XT premium. I do want the power this, power that, heated this and automatic that and leather.

I found out don't *need* a premium brand and I can gracefully step down the luxo factor, and still like the car.

With the additional requirement for more cars in the family I'm thinking through the difference between what is wanted and what is needed.

ljwalters1 · April 2005

I, too, love the luxury features :shades: , and determine which car I get more by those features than the brand. With my VW, the "coolest" lux feature (that I miss very much

) is rain-sensing windshield wipers. Certainly I'm fine with the regular, Hi, Low, Intermittent, but it's great having wipers that change automatically w/o my having to adjust them. Speed sensing comes close, but no cigar! The most annoying lux feature on my VW was the redundant radio controls. 1- they operated as a "seek" button, as opposed to scrolling through the presents, which was quite annoying. 2- they were on the right-hand side of the steering wheel. For some reason, I really like those controls on the left. If I want to use my right-hand, the dash isn't much farther away!

With my current car ('04 TL), the top luxury feature is the voice-recognition nav system, that's integrated to receive voice commands for the radio and the climate control system. Totally unnecessary, as I can now change the radio stations by using the standard controls, the controls on the steering wheel or my voice), but totally fun!

For all you feature buffs out there with heated seats - they're pretty good for keeping your take-out food warm on the drive home. Kind of like a built-in sterno-flame!!!

Anyone else have some favorite/hated lux features to share?

kyfdx · April 2005

Our 3-series has heated seats, which I love... and the rain-sensing wipers.. I thought that was a totally over-the-top feature, but it is really nice!

Even with adjustable intermittent wipers, I was always changing the adjustment to match the current amount of rain... The rain-sensing wipers work so well, they seem connected directly to my brain... Sometimes I don't even realize they are on..

Memory power seats... If your car has two drivers, this is a great feature.. 10-way power seats are a pain, if you have to readjust them and find your "spot".. With the memory, I just push one button before I get in, and it is right where I want it.

Next car, heated steering wheel...

regards,
kyfdx

blueguydotcom · April 2005

But the drivetrain is beyond reproach and the shifter is silky smooth.

unless one likes smooth, refined and buttery easy. I like my engines to feel solid and not make any hustle or bustle when pressed - like a BMW inline 6 or an Audi/VW turbo. The engine should pull and I should not get a sense of NVH or that the engine will burst from the hood. Every turbo subaru is fun but it's way too unrefined for my tastes.

The transmissions, imo, make BMW trannies seem good. That's a major accomplishment considering how bad their manuals are!

blueguydotcom · April 2005

Anyone else have some favorite/hated lux features to share?

Not a lux only feature now as I can get it on the Mazda 3 - xenon headlights. sorta a big fan of my BMW's tilt down passenger mirror too. And yes as others have said, memory seating is HUGE. That's kinda it.

kdshapiro · April 2005

I don't know what car you drive, but one of the the cars I tested (turbo) had a drivetrain beyond reproach. The engine never gave me a sense it would burst, in fact, it threw me against the seat on full acceleration and the engine was just as smooth as the I6.

Now people have been reporting picking up loaded models from anywhere between 25K and 26K. So that's 15 grand less than my 3 series with 5.3 to 60 as reported by C&D. That's a 15 grand difference from a loaded 3 series.

So for 15 grand I'll live with some of the shortcomings. Maybe I'll put a down payment on a house.

shipo · April 2005

"Memory power seats... If your car has two drivers, this is a great feature."

I'd insist on them even if I was the only driver. Why? Have you ever spent the time to get your 8, 10 or even 12 way manual sport seats adjusted just so, only to need to valet park your car? I've done it entirely too many times (like 2-3 times per week for nearly 12 years), and it seems like three out of every four times when I'd reclaim my car, the parking valets had somehow managed so mess with every single adjustment knob, lever and handle, forcing me to spend half of the trip home constantly focusing my attention on adjusting the &#$*!@^%& seat, instead of on the traffic surrounding me.

Best Regards,
Shipo

blueguydotcom · April 2005

I don't know what car you drive, but one of the the cars I tested (turbo) had a drivetrain beyond reproach. The engine never gave me a sense it would burst, in fact, it threw me against the seat on full acceleration and the engine was just as smooth as the I6.

Well so far about 5 WRXs, two legacy GT 2.5s, a couple Forester XTs. Not a single one felt smooth or refined. All were exceedingly rough and the NVH was astounding. Fast economy cars...but still leaving no doubt about their origins.

Now people have been reporting picking up loaded models from anywhere between 25K and 26K. So that's 15 grand less than my 3 series with 5.3 to 60 as reported by C&D. That's a 15 grand difference from a loaded 3 series.

So? I can buy a G35 MT6 for probably 10k less than a 330i Perf Pack but the engine's still a loud, balky, unrefined Nissan 3.5 matched to a notchy tranny (and a weird tach that flashes lights!). Savings and speed aren't really important to me if the car's not as refined.

kdshapiro · April 2005

Exactly

Different strokes for different folks. There have been a never ending series of posts about the notchy BMW shifter. Shall I dig them up? There are also varying opinions about BMW, shall we discuss those as well? Subaru builds cars of a different focus than BMW, and for those who like them, the cars are on target.

Here peruse this link at your leisure.

click here

I now understand that when a BMW gets their doors blown off by a Forester turbo the mindset of: "Ahhh. It's only a Subaru".

aaargh · April 2005

My '98 Grand Prix had a heads up display. I do miss that. Even though I have had my TL for a year now, I occasionally catch myself looking at the spot on the windshield for the HUD information.

That and the supercharger are the only things on my Grand Prix I miss.

ljwalters1 · April 2005

I agree, Shipo. My last 2 cars had memory, and even though I was the driver 99% of the time, they were helpful after having to move my seat to reach something or vacuum or whatever.

ljwalters1 · April 2005

what is a "heads up display" and "HUD" info?

aaargh · April 2005

A HUD (Heads Up Display) projects information onto the windshield, much like in a jet fighter.

The Grand Prix displayed the speed, turn signals, radio stations (when you change them), low fuel, and 'check gauges'.

The HUD unit sits on top of the dashboard immediately in front of the driver. It's a LCD display with a mirror that reflects the display onto the windshield. It's been around for several years.

At first I thought it was a cute but useless feature, but when you get used to it, it really is nice to have. I don't know why entry-level luxury vehicles don't have them. :confuse:

blueguydotcom · April 2005

KD,

So the doors are blown off...and? An STi will obliterate just about anything that isn't called Vette/Viper/or stickers under 70k. Shrug...

Weird that you're on the side of power at all costs. I thought you appreciated the intangibles associated with a luxury sedan/vehicle? I think you do but you're smitten with Scoobies. And they're awesome cars for the price and goal - crazy performance, decent materials, long term reliability and nearly unbreakable. My silly bro-in-law has tricked out a WRX to crazy levels. The car is a monster and he treats it like a red-headed step child that broke his bottle of mad dog. He seriously beats that poor car and it runs like a champ. It's amazing how it runs and runs.

So yeah his little 23k WRX with 5-6k in mods will out right spank the pants off a BMW. Maybe even an M3. But I wouldn't take a 500 mile trip at 120 mph in his car. no way in hades! Day to day, i couldn't live with his gnarly, raspy exhaust and the osbcene handling ability/coupled with rough ride.

I want the smoothness, the composure, the ability to get 30 mpg running 100 mph all day.

kdshapiro · April 2005

"So the doors are blown off...and? An STi will obliterate just about anything that isn't called Vette/Viper/or stickers under 70k. Shrug...

Weird that you're on the side of power at all costs."

There 3er is the benchmark and it has the perfect combination luxury and performance. All other luxo cars are a compromise in terms of one or the other. However...

I acknowledge it does not have the luxo features of the Bimmer or it's sleek smooth sophistication. But it flies like a bat out of you know where.

blueguydotcom · April 2005

Yes it's uberfast. I've considered an STi but fear i'd flat out kill myself. Not sure I could put up with the racket either.

kdshapiro · April 2005

WRT to a comment in an earlier post: you might say the car needs to be driven the same way as an: S2000, Miata or RX8. None of these cars are much good keeping the revs below 2K. Need to move the little needle up a ways to extract some performance.

One could also make the assertion you get 120% the performance with 50% of the luxo value at 75% of the price. (I don't know if that averages out to better value than the Bimmer or not

)

It's just another direction one might want to go when shopping.

blueguydotcom · April 2005

WRT to a comment in an earlier post: you might say the car needs to be driven the same way as an: S2000, Miata or RX8. None of these cars are much good keeping the revs below 2K. Need to move the little needle up a ways to extract some performance.

Uh that's true of bmws too. and all the scoobies. to get a bmw to move you better have the tach north of 3k rpm (4k in a zhp).

It's just another direction one might want to go when shopping.

True, true. I'm all over the place with what i want. I want a hatch, a convertible, a sedan. Hmm. That's why I'm seriously considering an A3 or Mazdaspeed3 and then pick up a used Miata or Z4 a year or two down the road. Or if BMW will confirm a 130, then get a simple convertible for a year or two and the 130 will join it eventually.

esf · April 2005

About your new car considerations- If you want an A3, you may have to wait like half a year for the 3.2 version, which is the one that would really have you pick it over the Mazda in performance. The 2.0T just isn't powerful enough to compete with that. Also, the 3.2 is supposed to have the DSG transmission from the TT 3.2, but neither A3s are supposed to have quattro until next year. And, BMW isn't giving us the 1 Series. The 1 Series is the Europe and Asia-only hatch. America is getting the 2 Series, a tiny coupe and convertible model. But, you're not going to be able to get it until like 2008. It's still developing. About the A3 again, if you want your car soon, and have the $, maybe you could spring for the S4 Avant instead, and have more performance, luxury and equal style for a bigger price tag. This is because that the 3.2 isn't coming soon. Or, if you can't afford that, look at the A4 Avant or Sedan 3.2. It's supposed to really fly! Anyway, BMW already did confirm a 130i, and it's already on sale in other parts of the world. It's the 230i you want.

Also, I don't know how long you can wait, but the next TT is supposed to be a major rocket. It's going to have an Audi Alluminum Space Frame, and it's going to also have the next generation Audi/Volkswagen V6: A 3.6 V6, first being used in the upcoming Passat, is going to generate some 280 horses, and that's not all. Audi is going to make a TTS, supposedly with the 340 horsepower V8 from the S4 (If it can fit), and a TT RS, but I don't know what that monster is gonna have. It should give the Porsche Boxster S and the Mercedes SLK 55 AMG a major heads-up. Or, they'll eat its dust if they don't put the 911 engine in the Boxster and make an SLK 63 AMG!

blueguydotcom · April 2005

The 2.0T just isn't powerful enough to compete with that. Also, the 3.2 is supposed to have the DSG transmission

Uh, the DSG is going in the 2.0 also. DSG is already available in europe on the A3 and GTI: http://www.tiscali.co.uk/motoring/roadtests/whatcar/audi/a3hatchback/210359/full.html

And, BMW isn't giving us the 1 Series. The 1 Series is the Europe and Asia-only hatch.

The 1 series is in Mexico right now...Mexico's not in Asia or Europe last time I checked. In fact last weekend a friend saw a 1 series at Fashion Valley Mall here in San Diego. It had Baja Mex plates on it.

So you might want to amend that statement.

A3 again, if you want your car soon, and have the $, maybe you could spring for the S4 Avant instead, and have more performance, luxury and equal style for a bigger price tag

S4 Avant = big fat, lazy pig. That thing weighs nearly 2 tons (3957 to be exact)! If i wanted something fast I'd just keep my 330i ZHP. The 2.0 is under 30k nicely optioned and it gets 31 mpg v. 21 mpg. Take the extra 20k and go buy a used Miata and mod it to the high heavens.
.
. This is because that the 3.2 isn't coming soon. Or, if you can't afford that, look at the A4 Avant or Sedan 3.2. It's supposed to really fly! Anyway, BMW already did confirm a 130i, and it's already on sale in other parts of the world. It's the 230i you want.

Spend some time on Bimmer boards. The success of the Mazda3 and possible success of the A3 will most likely mean the invasion of Bavaria's smallest soldier. If the A3 flops, BMW won't bother.

shipo · April 2005

"Also, I don't know how long you can wait, but the next TT is supposed to be a major rocket. It's going to have an Audi Alluminum [sic] Space Frame, and it's going to also have the next generation Audi/Volkswagen V6: A 3.6 V6, first being used in the upcoming Passat..."

Bzzzzt! I'm sorry, that's not correct!

Audi and VW are not using the same engine. Audi is wedded to a true V6 as it is shorter and is able to be mounted longitudinally and still allow for a nice installation for AWD. VW is reverting back to a VR6 design for the new Passat, with is a longer mill, requiring a transverse installation and an AWD system similar in nature to what the Audi TT has sported for a few years.

Given the numerous inaccuracies in you post, I find myself wondering where you got your information. Could you kindly post references to your sources so that the rest of us can steer clear of them. Thanks.

Best Regards,
Shipo

cybersol · May 2005

Anyone choosing right now between these cars have an opinion on how the new 3 series fits into the mix? Anyone tempted by the last of the old 3 series?

Thanks, cybersol

dhanley · May 2005

The new 3 is a little less "driver focused" than the old one, but in most ways objectively a better car.

dave

billyperks · May 2005

Did you test drive one?

blueguydotcom · May 2005

I have. It's a better car than my 330i performance package. Yes, the interior is not as cockpit like and yes they moved the window controls to the wrong place (left side door) but otherwise the handling is unflappable, the steering more precise, the roadholding amazing, road noise lowered, engine is more responsive and the car is all around far more fun to drive.

dhanley · May 2005

Yes, i did. I agree with blue about the window switches, and while i agree that objectively, it's a much quicker car, it still didn't feel as fun to drive for me.

Maybe i'll change my opinion if i drive it again.

dave

djocks · May 2005

I am coming off the lease of a 03 330i and I have been shopping a great deal in the recent months.

I like many on this board am in need of a family friendly sedan (4 doors) that will serve primarily as a commuter for me. I drive about 50 miles a day.

I thought for a while that I would like the G35(6MT), but after driving one for almost a day I was not a fan with the way the car set up. The interior had maxima written all over it (to be honest, it is the interior they should've put in the maxima). The performance was strong and obviously fast but it did not possess the crisp feeling of my 330i. So the G35 became an after thought. (I will speak more on it later)

So now it is going to come down to the TL v BMW.

I had the honor of taking out the new 06 325i (6-MT) yesterday and a tip of the hat to everyone waiting for one. I know what the horsepower says, and I can read the 0-60 times but I say without hesitation that the new 325i absolutely rips the G35 and TL apart. It feels as fast as my present 330i and the driving experience is actually improved. It is truly another typical BMW "how do they do that?" experiences. And after driving the 3 cars, anyone who says the G35 or TL is close to the 325i is saying that because that is what they have in their garage. I am coming at you honestly b/c I am leaning towards the TL, but the fun factor of driving the 325i is not even measurable. It truly is a 4-door sports car. The sales person asked if I wanted to take the 330i out and I said no. Reason being is, if I do, I know I will regret not getting one every day I drive something else. the other big positive, is the new stereo is "ABOUT TIME". The HK's in BMW's are flat out garbage and have no business being in such a car. The new logic 7 sounded awesome for the little time I used it.

HOWEVER,

The feeling from the drivers seat is tight. Both in a good way, and a bad way. It is a fully connected driving experience but it still feels small. A cruising machine this is not. Now the real bad. There is no noticeable difference in back seat room. I am 6' tall and I would want no part of sitting behind me. Also a very big flaw, it getting in the passenger seat. I must have looked funny as I got in and out several times, and each time I hit my left knee on the dash which is now bowed out rather than in. I can hear my wife now saying how much she "hates getting in and out of that THING!". I like the look, but I just feel from the outside the TL looks more aggressive. Something about the lower rockers that make it look more aggressive. I like the front and the back does not bother me but I bet that when the M3 hits we all say, wow thats they way they all should look. Much like the 5 series and M5.

that brings me to the TL and away from the G35. Since I feel (and you will too if you ever drive the new bimmers) that there is NOTHING like them, it does not make a difference what else you get, it is not the best. So other factors then come into play. The total size and interior of the TL I find gorgeous, not to mention they have every toy in the book. The germans make engines and the Japanese make technology. The Nav system and stereos on the TL are as you know, simply the best around. The seats are big and comfortable. And the back seat is perfect for a father of one who is getting bigger every day. I live in the northeast and front wheel drive also has advantages. Simply put the TL is a fast, and very nice touring sedan that is perfect for a commute.

I still need to give things a little thought. I really would love the BMW but I think the TL is a better fit for my life in 2005. I am going to be very jealous though every time I see a 330i screeming around some turn and the driver smiling from ear to ear.

I hope you liked my take.....

djocks

laurasdada · May 2005

Pick up the TL for your everyday family/commute requirements. Buy a used 3er for weekend fun. It sounds like you won't be happy with anything but a 3. Of course, growing up and having a family often means sacrifice. Which is why I'm driving an '05 TL instead of an Aston Martin DB9...

TL is a great ride, but I've never driven a 3. As a skiier, grew up with FWD and have always driven FWD. Of course, with the lousy (in the snow) OEM Bridgestones on my TL, a RWD Bimmer would probably have been better this past winter!

byronwalter · May 2005

...you'll probably scamper back the the Bimmer like monkey on fire. I've driven both and thought that the TL was like general anesthesia. Just haul around a low-speed corner quickly in the TL :P

billyperks · May 2005

I have gone around corners many of times at high speeds in my 03 TLS and it feels pretty darn gone good.

blueguydotcom · May 2005

I have gone around corners many of times at high speeds in my 03 TLS and it feels pretty darn gone good.

Yeah, I bet exiting that corner you were at WOT too, right. :P

Oh that's right, you can't do that with a TL.

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