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Comments
Here is where I need help.
The comparison includes:
1. Mercedez ML320
2. Lexus RX300
3. Acura MDX
4. Nissan Murano
6. Infiniti FX35
7. VW touregg
8. BMW X5 3.0
Here are the factors important for her:
1. Easy to drive
2. appeal (she loves the interior of the fx and the exterior of the Jeep GC)
3. No need for a third seat, just a little extra storage
4. leasing programs (residuals, price, maintenance)
5. Safety (no need for off road capabilities)
6. The standard 6 cyl. engines in all of these are plenty
What should be my first move?
Please consider that a key aspect of productive debate is to focus on the original assertion, and not shift it to suit one's conveniences.
The original point being debated is quite simple, and where my original post started.
Infiniti obviously knows FWD or FWD torque bias is hazardous.
Note in the above: "FWD or torque bias is hazardous." It does not qualify it to be "less safe" or "more hazardous" or what specific conditions exist.
During this debate, I've stayed faithful to debating that original point. However, that has not been the case otherwise; the responses have varied from "is hazardous" to "less safe" to "more hazardous."
I can invent any number of scenarios where FWD may prove hazardous. The same way where I can invent any number of scenarios where RWD is hazardous. I can also invent scenarios where any drive system is hazardous. The bottom line is, the original assertion just made the blanket statement that "FWD or FWD torque bias is hazardous." Something which credible autojournalists and manufacturers do not state.
Saying that the system is "hazardous" without applying appropriate contextual qualification is, frankly, irresponsible. Certainly not credible.
Trying to continue a debate by altering the original assertion and "making up" scenarios to suit those altered assertions is also not debate. Especially when credible, supporting third-party evidence has been repeatedly requested and none given. Certainly is a discredit to the debater. It provides the appearance that the debater, aware that the argument is a losing one, tries to alter the game and resorts to spilling useless rhetoric.
At that point, a debate is no longer practical not desired. Never mind that there are countless sources that say that FWD is good for snow driving, and that RWD has some hazards in snow driving as well. Never mind that in Sweden, FWD vehicles predominate (e.g. Volvos, Saabs) and do quite well in the harsher climate there, thank you. Never mind that the marketplace is saturated with FWD and FWD-biased vehicles and yet there is not a tremendous revelation that they "are hazardous." And, please, never mind that there has been no credible, third-party supporting information provided, without the application of personal bias.
Sadly, the debate was over a long time ago. I will not continue it in this forum. Thank you for your original one or two responses that were at least somewhat coherent.
Steve:
So "AWD, FWD, RWD Wagons - Which is the Best?" is the place to make it so? Thanks.
Roadbed conditions aren't always as predictable as one might wish. I might even point out that the performance of FWD (and 4WD/AWD)in adverse conditions often leads the driver to become over-confident.
This is not really a "creditable" statement but I have come to believe that RWD is less hazardous because it "warns" you sooner about adverse roadbed conditions. It isn't as adverse roadbed "capable" and so you're less likely to drive it into the twilight zone.
Then there is the mooretorque "rule".
"The better your 4Wd/AWD is the deeper into the muddy woods you get before becoming stuck".
I think the same rule applies to the FWD being better, more capable, than RWD.
But, I would add that during our snowstorm of 12/18/90 it was predominantly FWD vehicles that I saw scattered all over SR520. Of course you could say that was because FWD is the predominant vehicle out there on the road today.
My 85 Jeep did fine in part-time 4WD mode and with snowchains on all four.
And take Willard with you :-)
Steve, Host
Please Steve keep them on subject.
I thought my "plugging" of the T&C was strictly limited to the comparison of the T&C AWD system (which is quite SEVERELY FWD torque biased) and the RX/HL AWD system.
At the top end price wise you might pay 35k for a T&C and unless you really, REALLY need stellar AWD performance it simply isn't worth that kind of money.
Not to take undue credit, but have many of you now noticed that according to the early press releases the new RX330 will have a completely different AWD system, dropping the always "flaccid" Viscous clutch/coupling system in favor of an electronic AWD system which with proper design could react almost instantaneously to (ANY) wheel slippage, except for all four simultaneously, of course.
PT - Premium Package Plus (leather, illumination entry, power tilt steering, moonroof)
PL - Power Back Door
HL - HIDs
DC - 6-CD In-Dash Changer
DR - Roof Rails/Rack
WU - Wood and Leather Steering Wheel
NV - Navigation System with Rear Camera
HH - Two Level Heated Seats & Rain Sensing Wipers
FT - 18" Alloy Wheels, Full Spare
Price = Approximately $42k -- nothing firm yet, but less than a similarly equipped 2003 model
This package accounts for 17% of their allocation (total NAV allocation is 25%, non-Nav is 75%).
I noticed two interesting things with their allocation:
1) The Performance Package is only available on the high end, with NAV.
2) The Large Sunroof is only available on a non-Nav vehicle.
There is no mention in any of the packages of the Dynamic Laser Cruise Control. My dealer isn't sure what to think about this, and I don't even know if I can order it separately.
One more thing -- if you have not been invited, Lexus is having their annual Luxury Refined event this spring/summer. It is being held in many locations throughout the US, and will allow you to drive the RX330, GX470, LX470 and their near competitors. If you did not receive an invite, you can register for one at www.luxuryredefined.com. (I didn't have an invite, and I was able to register without a problem.)
I'll keep everyone informed as I hear more.
Andi
You will get to drive them on-road and off-road. Would definitly recommend to anyone interested to sign up - these events are usually "first class" from Lexus.
Thanks for the note on option packages amontgom. I would be curious to know how much the performance package is?
Andi
Steve, Host
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Subject
RX330
Discussion Thread
Response (Denise Academia) 03/11/2003 02:45 PM
Dear Mr. West:
Thank you for contacting the Lexus Customer Satisfaction Department regarding the
2004 RX 330.
The vehicle will have front, center and rear differentials, without the use of a Limited Slip Differential (LSD), in the center differential. The vehicle will not require the viscous coupling because traction control and vehicle skid control will transmit power to the appropriate wheels upon detection of wheel slippage. Also, the RX 330 should have enough rear wheel suspension clearance for the use of snow chains.
If you have any further concerns, you can also reach the Lexus Customer Satisfaction Department at 1-800-255-3987, Monday through Friday, 6:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m., Pacific Time.
Sincerely,
Denise Academia
Customer Satisfaction Representative
Customer (Willard West) 03/06/2003 03:45 PM
No answer yet ???
Customer (Willard West) 03/03/2003 01:00 PM
Dear Sir,
The early press releases indicated the new RX330 eliminates the center viscous clutch in favor of a Sequoia-like brake modulation AWD torque apportioning system. I have already placed my order for the RX330 (to replace my wannabee AWD 01 RX300) based on the above information.
Now I note that Lexus.com and Lexus.ca are both indicating the viscous clutch is a holdover on the RX330.
Which is the truth?
Willard West
PS: Will the RX330 have enough rear wheel suspension clearance such that I can use snowchains (rear only or all 4) without be threatened with loss of control?
Looks like the base price is going to be lower then the current RX
I saw the preview vehicle at the dealership. It's nicer than I thought it would be. I got a current build and options list from the dealer.
Here are available options (packages):
leather LA - leather, power tilt/telescoping sterring with memory, roof rails, roof racks.
premium PM - includes LA + illuminating entry system, one touch open/close moonroff, 6 disc in dash cd changer.
premium plus PT - includes PM + power back door, HID headlamps, wood and leather steering wheel and shift knob.
nav/mark lev VN - includes PT + Nav with rear camera, Mark levinson 11 speaker stereo.
perormance VP - includes PT + 18" graphite wheels (235/55/r18) all season tires, 6.5J graphite plating, air suspension, sequencial "sport shift" transmition, AFS (HID headlamps that turn with you), rain sensing wipers, BUT NO wood and leather steering wheel and shift knob.
Larg sunrrof VQ - large sunroof, 6 disc in dash cd, power tilt/telescoping sterring with memory, illumination entry, power back door, wood and leather steering wheel and shift knob, HID, leather.
I dont know if the follwing is for Dallas area, or Texas and neighboring states, But here is a list of current builds:
PM + 18" wheels, rain sensing wipers, power back door, wood and leather steering and shifter.
PT + 18" wheels, rain sensing wipers, 2 level heated front seats.
PT + 18" wheels, rain sensing wipers, rear seat entertainment.
PT + 18" wheels, rain sensing wipers, 2 level heated front seats, NAV wit rear camera.
VQ + 18" wheels
VP + Adaptive cruise control, NAV with rear camera.
VN + 18" wheels, rain sensing wipers, 2 level heated front seats, adaptive cruise control, rear seat entertanment.
The car I saw was VN + 18", heated seats, rain sensing wipers. Sales guy estimated about $42k.
I did some research, my humble estimates for packages and options (based on current Lexus packages):
PM = around $3000
PT = just under $4000
VN = $4900
VQ = I have no idea
VP = PT + $700*
I read somewhere that VP is a $700 option, I have to guess it is $700 on top of a PT premium plus package.
And of course, we have these known prices on other Lexu cars already:
NAV = $2000-$2200
Rear seat entertainment = $1600
Wood and leather steering and know = $330
Mark lev stereo = $1300
I hope my numbers are close...
That would take the MSRP of the RX to $43,500, which is $2500 more than a comparably equipped MDX of $41,000. Thus equipped, the RX would have power back door, power tilt/telescoping with memory and HID headlamps, but the MDX would have heated leather seats, rain sensing wipers and 7-seat arrangement and still costs $2500 less?
PT - $3,440 Premium Plus package
> Includes: Leather, power tilt wheel, moonroof
VN - $6,670 Levinson/NAV package
> Includes: NAV w/rear camera, Levinson, Leather, HIDs, Power Back Door, Wood/Leather Wheel & Knob, moonroof??
DR - $220 Roof rack/rails
FT - $215 Aluminum 18" wheels, full spare
HH - $665 Heated Front Seats w/rain sensing wipers
CL - $600 Dynamic laser cruise control
NV - $2,350 Navigation w/rear camera
HL - $515 HIDs
Lexus Link - $1,215
PL - $400 Power back door
EY - approximately $1800 (did not write down the exact amount) - Rear Entertainment System
He did not get some other packages, e.g. the Performance Package.
jofam1, keep in mind, packages are not supposed to be as much as individual options added up, it should be less, maybe not as cheap as I guessed. As to your refernce to MDX, I drive a 2001 CL, and I always joke that my Acura stands for "can't afford a Lexus". So, I would not expect the RX to be cheaper than a similarly equipted MDX.
Now, can anyone advise regarding how to get the best deal an RX 330? This will be my first Lexus purchase. Hopefully, my Acura will mean "couldn;t afford a Lexus until now".
How is the grip? Could it be slippery at times? It's a nice looking option with the matching shift knob.
Pricing however will be interesting since the demand is going to be so great. I was planning on waiting to see if they come out with a "special edition".
Andi
Thanks.
And William -- no problem! My name always seems to give me a few laughs along the way. I think there are probably more females on this board than you think -- we just lurk a little more.
I'll try to diligently post any info I can get on this car - either from the dealer or from Lexus Customer Service. I'm trying to give my sales rep a few days before I call him again. Don't want him to think I'm a pest!
Andi
Andi
Andi
Andi
Wonder how much negotiating I can do to get that price down some? If anything - could do without the performance package.
If this is correct then I would probably skip the Mark Levinson and just add the separate Navigation System which would yield a more reasonable $45,505 MSRP. Maybe I'm missing something and someone can clarify? I put a refundable deposit down yesterday and I want to understand what my options are before the vehicles start to arrive, which is expected in 2-3 weeks.
Incidentally at this particular dealership there are about 120 customers ahead of me, and this number was expected to grow considerably with the auto show (spring new car fever) starting here locally today.
The other side of things, Lexus likes to sell at MSRP and you really have to shop around. I'll bet there are still Lexus dealers selling RX 300's at MSRP.
Just some thoughts
I heard that Lexus hasn't been able to give them away and so factory production has been cut drastically.
http://pressroom.toyota.com/photo_library/display_release.html?id- - - =20030303sales
The folks posting on the Edmunds GX boards seem to like it.
Just curious to know where you've picked up your info re production cutbacks and low consumer acceptance.
:-)
Steve, Host
(if you are him, sorry about that Hawaiian DUI)
I will go back for a test drive tonight. I will try to get a copy of their sticker for the above car.
He said they have about 5 or 6 out of their first allocation that have not been pre-ordered. Hopefully it stays that way, I would love a discount after 3 or 4 months it is released.
I am going to bet that for VP($6770)+ VN($5455) package, we probably should at least deduct the PM($2145). Basically, 2wd+VP+VN-PM=$45680. They keep saying top end at 45k, this makes it sound closer to it. I also think pricing for WU is wrong on kbb. How can wood steering and shift be $4220?? On another Lexus car, its only $330.
Anyhoo, dealer says Lexus has tendency to under promise and over perform. So we will see.
Anyway, nice drive... Extremely quiet, enough pep for a fun drive. I can't write a good review, because I have never driven an RX before. I have a 3.2CL with NAV (so you know what I am used to), and I was very impressed. I did sit in an RX300 to compare the interior. WOW, after seeing the 330, I would never want an RX300. And the 300 is the hotest selling lux-ute, to put it in perspective.
I really like the NAV on the 330. Much better compared to my the one in my Acura. Lots of features, including However it could use a little joystick, and hopefully we can enter destination while driving. I forgot to test that feature.
Anyway, can't wait to have one. Please keep posting any pricing info you find. Thanks.