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Subaru XT Turbo Forester
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Comments
Thanks for suggestion but on too website of dealers in Oregon and Washington doing that gets answers which amounts to a sales pitch, but no official pricing. Regardless, the Subaru policy seems like a good one, however it is not a good purchase if one overpays for it. Still trying to get more clarity. As I posted before my exp. is that dealers initial asking price is all over the map - as much as they think they can get away with. Many seem to lower their price on the same policy to meet the competition withour simultaneously raising the price on the vehicle.
Miamixt - thanks for your posts. Edward (S. Oregon)
I still haven't had time to armwrestle with the service department about these; been working 80-hour weeks for quite awhile. Meanwhile, the dash buzz is slowly driving me bonkers. I can't catch up on my sleep while driving to/from work with all that racket going on.
In any event AT Subarus other than those with VTD are far more front-wheel biased than rear-wheel biased. I wish that wasn't true.
Apologies,
Ed
-juice
I tried to resist taking one for a spin. I've been trying to 'make' myself concentrate on the new Legacy coming out instead. But the XT MT was very impressive. This was a gold MT with only a turbo gauge as the sole installed option. Not my choice in colors (would prefer the Java Black), but it'll do for a spin.
I kept it under 4k RPM's and watched playfully as the turbo gauge bounced around as I accelerated or decelerated. Power just seems to be always there. It answered my throttle response immediately. Really couldn't tell the 'throttle-by-wire' was there. Even got to test out the hill-holder on a slightly inclinded right turn. Wasn't sure what to expect, but it seemed fine and let up as expected.
That is one nice engine. A slightly different engine tone than my NA 2.5 H4. I heard a subtle 'whoosh' every once in a while. Gosh, I wonder what that is? ;-)
If SOA brings the MT premium down to us blokes in the States, I'm most certain I'd get one.
SOA, you have until December to get that here, that's when my IMBA VIP pricing kicks in! ;-)
-Brian
Anything "major mechanical" is definitely covered and I have found that having one gets you VIP treatment at my local dealer (like the free timing belt when I had to have some leaking cam seals fixed) or the HVAC bulbs being done when they are not actually covered.
I have already more than broken even on my 98 Legacy with the ext warranty (mostly a/c repairs - I have a new compressor and condensor plus the seals/timing belt and 2 new radio antennas). I got that for about 1/3 off MSRP from the selling dealer.
That has been my standard MO since then on my other car purchases, if they aren't even offering 1/3 off I walk elsewhere, works fine at the Ford and Chevy and Winnebago dealer so far! One person at work got almost 50% off their subaru ext warranty (but then they killed her on the tradein!)
For my WRX I got mine from subaruwarranty.com which offers genuine SOA warranties at about 30-40% off MSRP. You send them the filled in paperwork and payment and SOA sends you your warranty paperwork.It was dead simple, I could have got a local dealer to match them but the bums wanted me to come in person to sign the forms the dealer I purchased the car from laughed in my face when I said match this price! subaruwarranty.com even had a SAE for me to return the forms.
subaruwrxparts also do ext warranties but they don't advertise zero deductible prices which are the ones I always get, plus they weren't doing ext warranties when I got mine from subaruwarranty.com
John
I'm in the same boat as you. IMHO that's because SoA has been less than helpful at providing owners performance details on AWD. I too hear people tout the superiority of Subaru's AWD system. But I very seldom see objective citations. And what I've seen is often no more than a magazine review, usually a magazine that also has a Subaru ad contract. Or, I hear of a "straw-man" AWD system, such as Volvo's old AWD system, that is so obviously poor that it is easy to pat ourselves on the back for owning a Subaru AWD. Maybe too easy.
What I've never seen is a head to head comparison of AWDs using stock vehicles from Subaru and other makers, tested by an independent facility.
Please don't misunderstand. I like Foresters, and I've owned both 1st and 2nd gen models. They seem to me solid value for the dollar compared to their competitors. But I'm not equipped to judge the AWD performance accurately and objectively.
But Subaru is. And I bet they know how well their AWD stacks up against the competition. They must know if it performs as designed. And they'd know what trade-offs were made and why. Why don't they make that information available to us?
I don't want proprietary engineering details. But I would like to know what value Subaru's added between Forester generations. Not with sales hype, but with performance specifications that we as owners can use to evaluate our investment. Has Forester's AWD gotten better, worse or stayed the same?
It's been six years since they introduced the model. If a Forester was a $24,000 stock I bought, I'd like to see management's latest SEC 10-K but I can't seem to find it.
Thanks for the response,
Jake
PS: Maybe Lance can put in a good word for us with Subaru, get Americans an Australian-class web site with technical specification pdfs for US models.
I can say from personal experience ( a GT coupe and a 4000S) that the quattro systems on the 80s Audis (torsens but no traction control or ABS) were not as good as the auto subarus of the early 90s.
Personally, I think the "superiority" of Subaru's AWD system is not in the system itself, but rather in the from-the-start incorporation. The viscous coupling in MT vehicles, electronic clutch pack in the AT vehicles and planetary gears with clutch pack in VTD have similar analogues in other makes. However, very few companies, if at all, have a symmetrical layout of the drivetrain to maximize AWD. There's a reason why Subaru has been advertising it's "Symmetry AWD".
With the prevalence of AWD systems, I think it's just a matter of time until we see comparisons focusing just on the AWD systems.
Ken
Any advice on break-in for that drive and thereafter? Edward (S. Oregon)
There seems to be quite a bit of play in the emergency brake lever. It sounds like there might be an adjustment on the lever itself. Will have to sit down and read the manual tomorrow. I am impressed with the output of the fog lights. This really helps to see the side of the road in Deer country. I have a set of steel wheels and Dunlop Graspic DS1 tires ready to go as soon as the bad weather sets in. Decided not to attempt to use the Graspic tires from my outback. Looking forward to post break in period.
Don
I tend to agree with you about symetrical AWD and also "from the ground up" incorporation of AWD. I found the movies at Subaru Australia to do a very good job of explaining symetrical AWD and how it differs from other AWD designs. I'd also add that Suburu has long experience with AWD. I expect good design execution and reliability, which does seem to be the case. But unfortunately we can't say for sure because Subaru has not, to my knowledge, told us their AWD performance goals and specifications.
I count on AWD in the long winters of ND and that means keeping me moving along intended paths even on snow and ice. My experience suggests Subaru AWD is good, better than FWD with Traction Control.
I seem to recall Consumers Report did a very small test comparing AWD to FWD with TC, and Snow Tires. As I recall the CR testers felt AWD was better on snow and ice. But what I would really like to see, absent Subaru telling owners what their engineers know, is a similar CR test of current Subaru AWDs performance vis-a-vis competitor AWDs.
It's maybe worth noting that CR has been somewhat critical of the OB routine and emergency handling and CR has dropped Forester's rating for emergency handling (eg 2000S AT "above average" to "average" on 2003X AT). How much of that drop's attributble to AWD vs tires and suspension, I'd don't know. We owners are left to wonder: slower AWD response for torque reallocation, changed default torque split, tires, and/or suspension changes between 1st & 2nd gens Foresters. Who can say?
As always, I appreciate your input,
Jake
Thanks for the comments. I'm not sure how many AWDs out there are "always on" vs "FWD" until slippage is detected (ie proactive vs reactive), but I'd bet the proactive AWD is more common than a couple years ago when I last looked.
But proactive vs reactive is, maybe, beside the point. What counts for performance and handling is how fast does the AWD system shift torque from the axle (or wheel, eg MB/Audi AWD) that slips to the axle that grips. It's the same critical factor in traction control and yaw control systems: how fast is the response. Some systems are fine on asphalt, gravel or water but too slow for snow and ice.
The only way to know is if automakers shares the specs, or if some pro (certainly not me) tests the performance in a lab and/or on a test track.
Jake
From the manual on brakes,"While maintaining a speed of 30-40 mph,step on the brake pedal lightly. Repeat this five or more times."
Parking Brake lining,"drive the vehicle at a speed of 22 mph, with the parking brake release button pushed in, pull the parking brake lever SLOWLY AND GENTLY with a pulling force of approximately of 33 lbs, drive the vehicle for about 220 yards in this condition, wait 5 to 10 minutes for for the brake to cool down, then repeat this procedure.
Hope this helps. Might be tough on the interstate. You don't want to get run over in the new XT:)
Good luck on your new ride. Let us know how it goes.
Don
Never had info. on breaking in a parking brake before. Edward
#1: VDC. Because it can send 100% of power to either axle, and because it is proactive, i.e. it can prevent drop throttle oversteer or get you up a wet boat ramp without tire spin. So it thinks, using inputs from yaw sensors and throttle positions, and is "smarter" than most other systems. Rear bias to split is icing on the cake.
#2: Quattro with traction control. The torsen fails if you have frictionless surfaces, but T/C overcomes this Achilles' heel. It is still limited to 67% of power to either axle, and it purely reactive, albeit very quick reacting. Cannot prevent drop-throttle oversteer without stability control (optional), and you will have some wheel spin on the boat ramp, until T/C engages. So close but no cigar, VDC is better.
#3: Subaru Auto AWD. Proactive, but default split feels like FWD. The catch? Front axle is unmanaged. Rear LSD only optional.
#4: Subaru's VC. Purely mechanically reactive. But...it works in snow, unlike a Torsen without T/C, and the default 50/50 split is fun. Front axle is unmanaged, rear optional.
If you put traction control on #3, I'd even rate it higher than Quattro.
That's how I rank them, but some would pick the fun first and maybe move the VC up in the rankings.
-juice
John
C&D did a test a while ago with two Audi A4s -- one with Quattro and a FWD version. They equipped the Quattro with all-seasons and the FWD with winter tires. IIRC, the FWD version w/snows did as well as the Quattro except for starting on a hill.
Perhaps the difference between the 2000S and 2003X are the lower profile tires on the 2000S?
Ken
BMW330xi vs Audi A4(or it may even have been a S4) vs Outback VDC. While not a proper AWD comparison as such it was interesting. The A4 with summer tires had ridiculously long track times in snow compared to the others with all seasons. Take the summer tires off and the Audi caught up with the others. They also could get the BMW and Audi to spin out but the VDC on the OB was so conservative (this was before the off switch), they couldn't get the OB off the road no matter how they tried.
I ordered a 2004 Forester XT premium with the VIP program. The dealer's invoice price in $25,721 (Rye, NY) and what I see on edmund.com is $25,612.
Also, I was promised a $250 Subaru rebate and am told now that it didn't apply to XT.
any idea if i am getting conned or not?
TIA,
Little
I wouldn't sweat the invoice pricing, but I might check with another dealer to see about the rebate.
At any rate, buying a car at a reasonable price is always a trying experience. try not to beat yourself up over $340.00 if you can afford it.
Good luck with your XT!
Jim
If your dealer has only given you an invoice total with no detail, I'd go back and get the detail.
When I bought my XT in June, the dealer furnished a printed invoice. Each and every cost exactly matched the prior invoice-price research I'd conducted online. Not one discrepancy. My out-the-door price was exactly $100 plus invoice for the basic XT, plus port-installed invoice cost of each option I selected.
Can Subaru gimme the official invoice price if I ask them directly?
jim: It's the thought of being screwed, not just about affordability.
See page 11-40 in your new owners manual.
Good Luck.
Don
Ironically, their conclusion was to rank the VDC last and ask Subaru for an "off" switch, which they got. Now I guess they can crash all 4 vehicles! No test would be complete without that!
Eejits.
Little: I think SoNE (Subaru of New England) has a slightly different price structure than the rest of the country.
The rebate applies to 2003 models, and there was no 2003 XT so in that regard they're being honest.
Bottom line? If you like the car, buy it, you are not getting screwed IMO. Having said that, CT has many dealers so shop that price around.
-juice
Glad to see you weigh-in on this. My experience with OB VDC was on snow and ice (careful test drive of dealer demo in a empty icy parking lot), and it convinced me. Had I not been too tall to safely fit in a moonroofed cockpit I would have bought an OB VDC years ago.
I found VDC traction and yaw control fast enough to prevent any spin-out or slides as I did figure "8s" at increasing speeds up to 35mphs. Traction control with yaw control is awesome if it reacts fast enough. OB VDC I tested did react fast enough at those speeds.
However, I've never seen how VDC performs on icy, snowy conditions at highway at speeds (ie 45 to 70mph). I'm not about to look for icy curves on my nearest interstate to find out, certainly not with someone else's vehicle. Do you or anyone else know of any reviews of the OB VDC at higher speeds on a snow and ice track?
For icy/snowy conditions I treat my AT Forester as a FWD vehicle with superb balance and agility. Default torque split and Forester's slow responsiveness to torque reallocation needs make it "feel" like a FWD vehicle when the surface is very slippery. But it's the best FWD drive vehicle I've ever driven.
If Subaru put VDC on the Forester, drivers would see a quantum jump in performance on snow and ice and much greater safety. Subaru has price considerations but I'm a little disappointed there's still no Forester VDC option.
Thanks for your input,
Jake
PS: I agree with your "ratings" of AWDs: they also correspond to my own test drives of those systems. Like the default torque split of the Forester MT but for me, and maybe most drivers, AT provides a better integration of Forester's powertrain and ABS with it's AWD potential.
Dealer said that the $250 incentive from Subaru applies to all models.
If you think we have it bad consider that Toyota's U.S. distribution rights are owned by one man. Ever wonder why the wacky option packages on Toyotas and how you can't get a simple option without purchasing a package? That's the reason. Toyota is so desperate to get out of the situation that they've offered the guy a billion to release the rights back to Toyota. He didn't bite.
In any case, the captive distributors do like to add port installed options that are generally overpriced.
Steve, Host
I'll look for the C&D issue you refer to. I've not read it but it seems they must have got the OB VDC up to speed. Do you recall how fast?
Jake
Can't remember how fast they were going, I don't think they were going highway speeds , just doing crazy things and trying to spin it out. It was like a one or two page article at the end of another article which may have been their OB VDC test.
Its interesting that VDC, DSC, etc or whatever you want to call an electronic stability control is not a popular feature in US vehicles, I read somewhere over a third of cars sold in the EU have ESC now. Its almost more common than ABS and probably a better investment too. VW offers it for only several hundred dollars on its models, other manufacturers should do the same.
Pros :
1) I think the new automatic is very nice, better shifting, smoother etc.
2) Can't beat the AWD of course
3) The engine. And what a jewel that is.
4) All the amenities of the premium package, except for the auto psycho climate control.
Neutrals:
The mileage isn't great, but its acceptable given the performance.
Cons :
Build quality regarding squeaks, rattles, and wind noise is more on the lines of a 12k Hyundai. I'm learning to live with them, but overall my ex's 98 Tracer is a lot quieter. The Forester build quality - and this is my second, the first being the 03 w/premium, just is not in the high 20's price class. My wife's 03 OB wagon is a much better "finished" vehicle.
If I had to do it again I'd wait for the 05 Outback product line.
Larry
One thing that made a huge difference with wind noise - removing the roof rack. Mine won't go back on unless I'm carrying something. The majority of noise now is from the tires, I'm looking forward to getting rid of the OEM ones but I'm cheap enough to wait for them to wear out first. Driving 25-30k a year I can live with them that long...
Brett: stop teasing Corvettes. It's not fair. To them. LOL!
-juice
Mine, in about 80% sea-level freeway driving on cruise control at 65-70MPH - with A/C hardly ever running - has never come even distantly close to those numbers. Through about 3500 miles, I'm averaging less than 22MPG.
22mpg ain't too shabby.
-juice
My number one complaint is the size of the gas tank. I am only getting around 270 miles between fill ups. I am used to about 400.
Removing the rack eliminates much of the wind noise, especially with the big moon roof open or closed. Turning up the sound system gets rid of rest.
If you plan on using a roof rack often, consider getting the optional Cross Bar Set-Square. This rack goes on and off very quickly without tools. It is compatible with all Thule components which are more varied than Subaru's offerings. This option is about $100 at subaruwrxparts.com. There may be an equivalent Yakima compatible rack.
My car has not had any interior rattles or buzzes. I have been satisfied with the fit and finish and my previous car was a Saab. Earlier I reported a buzzing coming from my driver side mirror. I flipped mirror back and found the inspector (or maybe part number) sticker half loose. This is what cause the buzzing. I recommend removing these decals from both mirrors.
In Conneticut I paid $26,300 in early September. This included the square bar rack and arm rest extension. There were not as many XT's available then and only three white ones in New England with PP. The dealers have more XT's now and are more willing to bargain.
The Auto Climate Control is nice and I use it most of the time. However, it has some annoying characteristics that I would like to modify. When it is hot out, it will crank the AC full blast to get to desired temperature as fast as possible. When it is cold out it will not do anything until the engine heats up. Then it comes on like a banshee pumping the heat out full blast. In both cases this is the fastest way to get the interior to the desired temperature, but I would be willing to sacrifice a few minutes of comfort to keep the fan below level 4 when in Auto mode. Maybe the ECU can be reprogrammed to change some of these characteristics.
Another strange thing with Auto Climate control is that it will turn the AC on after heating up the car to desired temperature. It is 49 degrees F and dry outside and it has the AC on! What is up with that?! To stay in Auto and shut off the AC I have to turn the temp up above 75. This is ridiculous when wearing warm clothing. I want to reprogram my climate control to my preferences. Anyone know if this is posible?
It sounds like I am nagging, but I actually love the car. Driving to and from work is one of the best parts of my day.
The sound system is damn good for a factory unit. The highs and upper mids mellow out after the speakers break in. With my more-sound-reflective leather interior and the placement of the mid speakers by legs, I personally think the system sounds better with the mid boosted to +2 and the bass at +1. Still experimenting with it. Maybe rolling the treble back to -1 or -2 could achieve a similar effect.
If you are looking for a new Subaru Forester, do not test drive the XT unless you can afford to buy it. Same goes for the WRX buyers. The feeling of the power, specifically the torque coming through AWD is addictive. This car has made me a torque junky! I have had two people driving with me ask about the 6 cylinder engine. They are surprised to hear it is a 4 banger. The XT's 2.5 boxer with low boost turbo, variable valve control, intercooler, mated up with AWD and new 4 speed automatic transmission deserves an award for drivetrain of the year. The 05 Legacy may top it, but for right now this has got to be the best drivetrain for typical everyday driving available today, period.
I'm probably not the first to think of this, but it occurs to me that either the XT engine or (even better) the STi would (with appropriate conversion bits and pieces, such as water-jacketed exhaust manifolds) make spectacular marine engines. Very small overall size, comparatively lightweight for the power, and either one could easily produce 350BHP or better after they're freed of all the catalysts and other pollution-control junk. And all that low-midrange torque would be perfect for leaping up onto a plane.
The thought of a lightweight 17-18' Kevlar-constructed skiboat with a small, light 350BHP STi engine makes me drool.