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Comments
Unfortunately, to the masses, AWD is AWD no matter how it works or who builds it. Nowdays, offering AWD with no traction control is almost like offering FWD with no traction control. So many cars now have AWD, even if it only sorta works.
I still maintain that VDC should be offered (maybe standard?) on turbocharged models, and indlude an off switch for a more spirited drive.
PS. Did Subaru have any comments for Nissan using the name "VDC: Vehicle Dynamic Control" con their vehicles?
Just to clarify, I don't think Subaru has made a big effort to drive the distinction between the AWD systems to the customer. Clearly, they have segmented the AWD solutions internally, but like zoomer mentions, you really need to care about these things to pick it up.
However, Subaru has started to try and distance themselves from the competition by branding their AWD as Symmetrical AWD. Unfortunately, I don't think the average buyer understands enough to see why a symmetrical layout has advantages over other AWD kludges.
Lastly, Subaru probably isn't offering VDC on other models yet due to cost. Product options are not free, even if no one buys it. There is an administrative and support cost associated with every unique model option. Right now, the VDC-specific parts are limited to just the VDC wagon. Now imagine the permuations Subaru would have to deal with if suddenly all VTD-equipped models (Baja, WRX, Legacy GT, OBXT) were to have VDC!
Ken
Not that I don't like Accords, (had 3 and 1 Integra) but when did Accord become "a peformance oriented car"?
Outback XT looked good in monotone. LLBean's mirror fell off - which didn't look especially good to a couple checking it out (we saw 2 other manufacturers' mirrors fall off). 2005 is pretty much what I expected from Subaru - tweaks here & there - certainly looks much better (revolutionary) on the web site than in person (evolutonary). Interior IS much better - passat-like. I couldn't find the extra inch in width, nor could my wife...
Racing simulators were a big hit - they had 3 of them, but the lines looked about an hour long. The LLBean Forester looked good.
After looking at all (I mean ALL) the cars/SUVs and sitting in almost all of them (30+), I left the show scratching my head. Subaru has been talking about a mid-sized 7 seat SUV since before I bought my 2001 LLBean H6 over 3 years ago. I've waited patiently for info....but not much is out...
We love our 2001 LLBean after 57K miles and will keep it for our usual 9-10 years, but I don't see another Subaru in our driveway this spring (to replace our Accord). The Outback, while safe, is getting too small on today's highways. (We sat in the obnoxious Hummer just to see what it would be like to drive a tank able to crush 95% of existing vehicles.)
Subaru is losing Outback graduates to other Japanese auto manufacturers by not having a move-up car/crossover SUV. I would gladly buy the "7 seater" this spring, or maybe wait until the fall, but it looks like it is at least a year or two away. It's a shame - Subaru builds such a good product..
Oh well, maybe in 2011 I'll buy the 2nd generation Subaru 7 seater SUV to replace our 2001 Beaner...
Ralph
Bob
You mention width and I can imagine having a hard time finding the space due to that change specially one inch. It's probably there somewhere ;-) How about length? Subaru went to 105+ inches in wheelbase (+2 inches). Any more room there? I believe that cars that have at least 107 inches in wheelbase and 70 to 71 inches in width tend to have adequate room (yes that is subjective) and don't get lost in the highway amidst the suburban assault vehicles (SAVs!!). In my earlier post I refer to several cars that will have dimensions close or greater than 106/7 and 70/1 and will have AWD. The only recent introduction that has a "smallish" wheelbase is the Mazda 6 (small compared to the other midsize sedans). The Mazda 3 now rides on almost 104 inch wheelbase (bigger than the outgoing Legacy!) That is why I was surprised that SOA increased the Legacy's wheelbase by "only" 2 inches. I was hoping that they would increase it by a healthy 4 to 5 inches as I, just like you, want to move to a larger car then the current Legacy/Outback dimensions provide. Even the second generation Prius rides on 106+ inch wheelbase but is on the narrow side (67 inches). I really hope that SOA has used all the space inside to give more room than the current legacy or they will have a similar experience as the 6. The 6 is a nice car and will sell but not in the same volume because most who cross shop with Altimas, Accords, and Camrys tend to not get the 6 (yes this is my unscientific read of the trade rags) because of the size--especially the rear seating area.
2.5i $20,900 plus dest
2.5gt sedan $25,900 plus dest
2.5gt wagon $26,900 plus dest
VDC wagon $33,400 plus dest
Not exact, obviously, and he also said SOA has to meet with FHI one more time to finalize, but overall sounds good. Hope they end up being right.
Welcome to Subaru Crew!
The 05 Legacy GT is equipped with the 2.5 turbo in both sedan and wagon, 5 speed manual and 5 speed SportShift auto . The 2.5 t is available in the 05 Outback XT wagon,only. The Legacy GT wagon and the Outback XT will have identical interior , including new performance seating.In recent track tests in Japan, the Legacy GT wagon ran circles around the much heavier Audi S6.
mark
The 2.5T is also based on a semi-closed deck that is stronger than the block on the old EJ25. The pistons and valves are significantly stronger too.
Ken
Mark
Mark
I believe it's just a tilting unit. I was hoping for both as well because my wife is 5'2" and I'm 6'1". ;-)
-Ian
Anybody have any word yet on the EPA numbers for the Legacy 2.5i with the manual tranny.
-juice
Had a used 98 GT wagon in 2000 for a while, suffered from persistent clutch shudder. juice and co helped me figure our what was wrong and with negotiating the return of the GT....and turned me onto getting a new Forester. I go away for 4 years. Now I'm buying again, and some of the old crew are still here. Amazing!
JP
This is from the dealer websites from Fred Adcock Exec VP of SOA
sedan wagon
2.5i $20,995 $21,995 add $1000 for Sportshift Auto
2.5i LTD $24,445 $25,645
2.5GT $25,995 $26,995 add $1200 for Sportshift with VTD
2.5GTLTD$28,495 $29695
OUTBACKS:
2.5i $23,995
2.5XT $27,995
3.0 LLBEAN $32,195
ADD 575 destination on all models
Mark
Using those numbers , an OBXT LTD would MSRP $31,495 for 5MT, $32695 for the 5EAT Sport Shift.....$500 MORE than the LLBean with the upgraded 3.0...that'll be a hard sell. Even with all the improvements, the numbers for the turbo and the LTD versions are are about $1000 too high, IMHO . Still a lot of car for the $$ compared to the other manufacturers.
Mark
Active AWD: Entry-level to mid level models
Auto VTD: High end and sport models
Manual VTD: Ultimate sport application
Based on that analysis, then, is the Forester XT considered by SoA to be an "entry-level to mid level model"? If not, then why no Auto VTD?
[runs and hides for another week]
Ed
Thanks a bunch.
Mike
Hey, long time no hear. Hey, where'd you go? ;-)
Well, in my view the FXT is just borderline high/mid end from a total Subaru offering. It's clearly at the high end of the Forester line-up, but the Forester line in general is very heavily planted in the mid-level of Subaru's offerings. The Legacy GT/OBXT/OB Bean and VDC fall into what I consider the high-end category.
Also from a sportiness side, the FXT certainly has the power, but as I've mentioned before, it could use a stiffer suspension and better tires to really be a sport offering.
Subaru could have offered the FXT with VTD and it would still have made sense too.
Ah, the beauty of a cross-over.
Ken
Will the side airbags and side curtains be standard EVEN on the 2.5i (NOT Limited) sedans and/or wagons?
If so, this car looks to be a phenomenal value.
My 'rents would happily snap up a Black 2.5i Automatic at MSRP of $22570. Looking to buy in Sept/Oct, so hopefully people wont be paying MSRP at that time still, though given this cars portfolio of features- its possible.
~alpha
OTOH, ONLY GT Legacies have side curtain airbags STANDARD. They are optional on the lower models. ALL Legacies have front and side air bags, however.
Legacys are a better value with that big difference.
-juice
All the models of the Legacy/Outback come standard with side air-bags and side curtain air-bags.
-juice
Re: sunroof, anybody know if it will be an option (if not std) on the 2.5GT? I'd be willing to pay extra for it, but i don't know if it's worth $2500.
That's fine, though, I prefer cloth.
-juice
If your parents can wait 6 months to buy a new Subaru, which looks like that's about their expected time frame to purchase, have them join IMBA. As a member of IMBA they would be eligible to use Subaru's VIP Partner's Program, which allows you to buy a new Subaru with all factory installed options at true invoice. Here's the link to the VIP program on IMBA's website http://www.imba.com/tcc/subaru.html
I bought my 2003 Outback wagon using the program. It was the best car buying experience I've ever had. Once you've been an IMBA member for 6 months you are eligible for the program. You simply contact IMBA and tell them the dealer that you want to purchase a new Subaru from and Subaru will mail you a voucher to present to the dealer. The voucher instructs the dealer to sell you a new Subaru with all factory installed options at true invoice. When I bought my Outback there was a $1000 cash back to dealer incentive which made my purchase price $1000 under invoice. I had to negotiate the price on the additional options that I wanted the dealer to install in my Outback, as the program's invoice pricing does not apply to dealer installed options.
taoman
There used to be a list of order codes over at nabisco. Perhaps they had some mention of the interior fabric.
I doubt the moonroof will be an option on the standard GT. Subaru has typically kept the "premium" packages together as a bundle. Perhaps later in the product lifecycle, but at least not this year.
Ken
mark
Mark
Mark
zoomer1- I think you're wrong with respect to pricing. If you look at the rest of the midsize market- the Legacy competes well on price when you factor in its AWD.
Example-An Accord EX with side airbags and curtains is $23,320. Granted, that model gives you a moonroof, power seat, and 6 disc in dash CD changer, but a Legacy 2.5i with auto and side airbags/curtians is expected to be about $22,600. So for a savings of 7xx dollars, you get AWD but give up a couple of conveniences. Seems fair to me, and I'm sure SOA will offer an options package or two for the 2.5i and GT models- because there's a decent gap in features and price to the 2.5 Limited and GT Limited models.
~alpha
First, Honda Accord EX with side airbags and curtains is $22k with M/T and $22.8 with AT($1,320 and $520 less). That is a considerable difference and could be significant to consumers.
Second, the Accord is a larger car with greater height, width, length, and overall interiro space. Under the EPA/DOT class definition the Honda is a true Midsize while the Legacy qualifies as a Compact so I would disagree with your statement that they both qualify as Midsize. You may disagree with the EPA and DOT on the car's classification as it currently stands but that is what the classification is.
Third, I agree that AWD is a value proposition and as such one should pay for it. My read of the industry magazines including trade specific literature shows that when it comes to AWD versus price and reputation...consumers in general favor price over features above and beyond the norm (generally considered as p/s, p/w, AT, ABS, Airbags, AC, power seats, remote fuel and trunk). So, SOA is competing with brands who push out 150k to 280k units that can be price elastic. SOA needs to position themselves at a price that is marginally higher but not so high as to create a really large price difference.
To take your example the Accord model you cite is priced lower than the GT Sedan by almost $3000 and it has several features that are optional on the Subaru (AWD excepted). The L model of the Subaru is $2000 less than the Accord model you use as an example and has an even greater lack of standard features (Intellichoice and Edmunds used for comparos).
If you are an SOA afficionado you will believe that AWD is worth the extra money--we are a small group in the compact segment (80,000 units last year). So, if you are AWD neutral and price sensitive that is a tough sell. If you AWD averse then the proposition is a non-starter as the Accord competes with or beats the Subaru on NCAP, Reliability, Depreciation, Resale, and we have already discussed dimensions.
It is easy for SOA to get lost in the compact crowd. Midsize segment sold well over 1 million units. To wit, last year SOA had a LOSS of $28.5 million.
My point is that AWD just by itself won't sell Legacies any more. More cars will have AWD and since larger companies can amortize the costs over several hundred thousand units they can eat the increases taking the AWD cache away from SOA. By pricing the cars 4% or higher for 2005, depending on models, while others introduce AWD on larger cars that are priced similarly is a risky gamble for SOA.
2004 Accord EX Auto w/ std Side Airbags and optional Side Curtains plus dest:
MSRP: $23,290
vs.
Anticipated Legacy 2.5i Auto w/ Side Airbags and Curtains and dest.
MSRP: $22,570
(Perhaps youre numbers dont include destination charge?)
Second, thats fine the EPA/DOT classify the Accord as a Mid-size and the Legacy a compact. The fact of the matter is that they are competitors, you will see them in comparison tests against each other, and many consumers (I'm NOT saying ALL) WILL cross-shop the two (as my parents will in October). If you want to read that as meaning I disagree with the EPA/DOT classification that's fine.
Third, "To take your example the Accord model you cite is priced lower than the GT Sedan by almost $3000 and it has several features that are optional on the Subaru (AWD excepted). The L model of the Subaru is $2000 less than the Accord model you use as an example and has an even greater lack of standard features (Intellichoice and Edmunds used for comparos)."
What model year Legacy are you even talking about? Are you even talking about 2005? If so, there's no L model (that Im aware of anyway), and the GTs will have 250 hp, so why are you comparing a 160hp Accord to them, and then citing the substantial price difference? Very bizarre comparison.
~alpha