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Paying more than MSRP for (new) Hybrids, Depreciation/Value of used Hybrids
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On the other hand, the dealer would probably be happy to give you your $1000 back and then sell the car for $2000-3000 over MSRP. Face it - the 400H is in huge demand and there's a price to pay to be the first on the block. If you don't like it, then either a) don't buy the car, or b) buy somewhere else. I have a feeling you won't get a better deal though...
but if the dealer said "pay $1000 DEPOSIT to get in line and pay MSRP," then the buyer was ripped off. if the dealer said "Pay $1000 for the PRIVLEDGE to get in line and pay MSRP," then all is "fair." (it happens on ebay all the time) If the dealer said the 2nd line last year, then the buyer could have shopped around at a different dealer. If the dealer said the 1st line, and the dealer changes the deal on him, then what can he do today? he'll have to get on the end of another list or pay $2000 to get the car now at another dealer. if this was the case, then it's a dirty tactic.
Take 'em to court - no lawyer needed, just bring in your deposit slip and the paperwork from your deal. I would also write a letter to the dealer protesting their action, be sure and get a return receipt, and wait a couple of weeks. If the dealer doesn't respond or fails to deliver satisfaction, you will probably get your $$ back from the judge.
I you do take them to court, request that the judge also add money to the judgement to compensate for your time, costs, and mental anguish. Small claims court will handle cases where no more than $5000 is involved, so keep the amount requested below 5 grand.
No, I disagree, the point is that the deposit should have been applied to whatever price was paid, and according to the original post, they basically forfeited the deposit - it was not applied to the purchase price.
It the dealer wanted to inflate the purchase price by $1000, then I could see your point, but that is not what the person said. Perhaps that is what they meant. But in any case, that $1000 should have either been refunded, or clearly applied to the purchase price. That $1000 belongs to the purchaser unless it has been clearly accounted for and documented. Common industry practice would indicate it should have been taken out of whatever amount became the agreed sales price.
Take 'em to small claims court. If you have some questions, ask a lawyer; it is worth the $100 or so for an hour of his/her time to give you a legal opinion.
Again, the person bought the car and has been driving it. I doubt a judge would force the dealer to refund anything. As far as the lawyer goes, it's a $100 just to find out whether court is a good idea, plus whatever your time is worth. If it is a good idea, it'll be a lot more than that. Even if they won, they'd probably end up netting about $100. Not worth the aggravation. Chalk it up to experience, don't buy from these guys again, and move on.
Well, you don't use lawyers in small claims court - you represent yourself. I was just suggesting that the lawyer be consulted as to the law, before proceeding on the claim. If the judge approved a settlement, I imagine that lawyers fee could be part of the judgement.
RE: Already bought the car.
Doesn't matter, if the dealer did something illegal or contrary to normal practice, they may be liable. By that logic, if someone stole my wallet and I waited a day to tell police, the thief couldn't be prosecuted...
Plaintiff: "He said the deposit would go towards the price."
Defendant: "No we didn't your honor."
Judge: "It is vague here...wait, you bought the car for the dealer's price?"
Plaintiff: "Yes sir, but it wasn't fair."
Judge: "Boo hoo. Next case."
Yes, the person signed the papers, but the $1000 was not clearly listed in the paperwork. This is a dealer error, not the buyer. Paperwork would rule - if the deposit is clearly indicated in the paperwork. Additionally, there are such things as legally binding oral agreements, often based on customary practices. Here is my interpretation:
Judge: "What happened to the $1000?"
Defendant:"We kept the money."
Judge:"Was the money applied to the purchase price?"
Defendant:"No."
Judge: "Was the plaintif told that the money would not be creditied towards a purchase? Anything in writing?"
Defendant:"No."
Judge: "I find for the plaintiff. Defendant to refund the $1000 plus an additional $2000 for pain and suffering. "
It doesn't cost much to go to small claims court.
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Escape Hybrids ruin many thousands of dollars more than a regular Escape with all the rebates and dealer discounts...Escape hybrids have little discounts from MSRP...if any.
In our society "Let the buyer beware" is a good consumer watchword. However, I did not follow my own rule lately I took a new Chevy Impala back to the dealer and got my money back last month when the "Employee" price turned out to be a hoax at the particular dealer where I bought the Impala. I e-mailed Chevrolet and had a phone call from a Chevrolet investigator on a Sunday afternoon. the dealer gave me all of my money back and the GMAC contract was canceled... it can be done if you have a reasoned and temperate argument. Remember that the dealer's are wholly independent auto resellers and do not have a standard set of "rules".
Hybrids are more expensive to buy than the equivalent gasoline models and most drivers will never recover their extra purchase price... somewhere between 100,000 and 200,000 miles. Right now the hybrids are a very expensive toy that appeals to people with a lot of money to burn, those who want to experiment with a new technology and those who want to be Green. Currently it is a niche market and interesting to all consumers, but not many at the current premium prices for hybrid models. It will be a couple of years before prices make a hybrid a good economical bargain. The Escape/Mariner hybrids have a very small towing capacity ...the same as a regular 4 dr car such as a Chevy Impala 6-cylinder or Honda Accord 4-cylinder, so towing with an Escape Hybrid may be a bit impractical except for a U-Haul trailer, a 10m ft small pop[-up camper or a small boat trailer..
I finally wound up with an Accord 4 cylinder (no hybrid) that gives me 30-35 MPG at 65-75 MPH...maybe next time for me if hybrids are still offered. The 700 lb additional weight and 5-6 thousand dollar battery replacement costs have to bee solved first.
Why do Honda Accords have so much appeal and so little discount, well one thing stands out, fit and finish of my 23005 Accord is impeccable and makes my FWD 2002 Escape V6 look and feel like it was assembled by a totally inept Ford manufacturing management/worker team... yet both are assembled here in the United States..
$1000 deposit placed in May 2005 on my credit card.
At closing yesterday, the deposit was credited back to my credit card. I wrote check for partial down-payment, and after credit for my trade, financed the rest.
When I asked why the deposit was not used in the total payment, business manager said that this was just the way they did things to comply with the lending practices of the credit union.
In any case, no problem, as I got my deposit back with no muss or fuss.
Just wish they would have let me pay partially by credit card for the FF miles. No issue for me since I don't carry a balance.
Oh, I paid MSRP; no dealer mark-up.
Mike
The dealers like the security of having a deposit from the CC company. If they credit back to the CC they do not have to pay a percentage. They want all the money, and your check is better than that CC charge.
Railroadjames
P.S. One last thing...Ever see what a replacement exhaust sys. costs or the A/C on an Accord...Megga Bucks. So none of the cars escape the high costs of primary item replacement on those cars..
I think there are very legitimate long-term concerns about the hybrid batteries as they start cranking out more and more of them. Not a big deal if you buy a new hybrid today, but the next decade will be telling...
Voluntary Emergency assistance crews still have a lot of problems with how or if they should approach a hybrid vehicle involved in an accident. Ford issues theri Hybrid trained mechanics a 10 foot fiberglass pole in case a trained mechanic gets "hung up" while servicing the Hybrid!
Costs can be prohibitive for a Hybrid -- example the Ford Escape. A similarly equipped non-hybrid Escape can cost up to $10,000 less than a hybrid Escape (same equipment). Those costs are prohibitive for a family without a lot of money to throw away and hence are a "high-cost" alternative transportation. Recovery costs for those hybrids would reach equality at approximately 250,000 miles. There is no free lunch and the hybrids prove that. The emissions of my Honda are the same as the hybrids, so hybrids so-called advantages will be flattened in the future.
You can easily go to Europe and see all the small cars that purport to "stuff" 5 people in them and get great mileage...and their highway mileage is 40-50 MPG on either gasoline or diesel. VW Rabbit diesels used to get 50-55 MPG, I don't know if VW Golf diesels still do.
And, of course, the CVT transmission was used on the Netherlands DAF autos in the 1950s (tiny like your Prius). The USA loved it and put it in our snowmobiles for years...will it last like our regular transmissions will?
Oh and of course, keeping the engine constantly at a high RPM to get maximum torque is an old trick, we used to do it with every tractor I ever saw on our and neighbor farms some 50-60 years ago...helps in plowing or discing soft ground.
So hybrids married all of these old techs, of course their battery packs use batteries that need to use a tremendous amount of fossil fuel energy to create in ther first place.
then the sales and marketing divisions hired the hype writers and called it Tomorrows technology Today...NOT!
Do me a favor, before you take your Prius up tp 100MPH again, go to the church of your choice and say a prayer. Driving like that is just asking for trouble.
As to the question about the "Batteries" WE owners know that they work at only a fraction of their capacity and that adds to their longevity. The only question I see is the timetable to see if these hybrids live up to their great track record as of now. Yes, time will tell and if Toyota's Hybrids continue to maintain their high level of quality & durability. I'm totally satisfied with 24K and nary a problem while averaging 50 plus miles per gallon.
Oh to oldjoe I knew you'd throw criticism toward me over going over 100 mph. I never meant to imply that I made a habit of that kind of vigor. I meant only to imply that by testing my vehicle's limits I know what they are and what they are not. Lastly, I have one criticism of my Prius ...When you build a car to be roomy and functional it tends to be subject to "Cross-Winds" You can't necessarily have it all so they say. All in all I again say ..."Dollar for Dollar the Prius delivers quite alot. DRIVE ONE and see.
Railroadjames.
That's what I'm a little worried about. If we start cranking out millions of hybrids, how are we going to dispose of all those big batteries, which are more than a little toxic? Just interested in your thoughts.
Again, I agree that if you buy a Prius new, battery replacement is not a big worry. But if you buy it used without the big warranty, it could be a major issue. Which of course could affect your resale when you go to sell it 5-7 years from now.
railroadjames(ding-ding)
This takes me back to the other question that used to irritate me...when dealers would give an additional $500.00 discount to "college grads" and leave the "blue-collar" guy out in the cold. Seems predjidicial to me.
Railroadjames(equality in the market)
Yes, I have read up on the Prius and do not like the abysmal handling characteristics it has. Thin tires and a soft suspension allow the Prius to be "thrown around" in Freeway or high wind driving and gas mileage to suffer. I took my Honda Accord on a trip from Eastern Iowa to Rapid City, SD...the wind was blowing, the sun was hot and I sat comfortably and in complete control...no wiggle, no weaving and gas mileage at 65-75 was 30-33 MPG...in complete luxury. That is my idea of transportation in 2005.
Gas mileage estimates for the hybrids are a very well known and accepted joke...even the government admits that the estimates are 20-25 % too high due to archaic formulas that are used to estimate mileage (the formulas were made up many yaers ago). The federal government went to change the formula so that the hybrids would more accurately reflect their true gas mileage and ran into a hornet's nest from the companies that manufacture hybrids...Toyota being the most vocal. How dare the formula be changed to tell the truth? Shenanigans like this are the reason hybrids are still a bit suspect for the average user.
My Honda is rated 5 stars in all seating positions, not just the driver's seat...and the standard side airbags and side curtains belongs as standard equipment on such a poor handling auto as the Prius...not as an option.
Things are improving...there are now teams of people going around the country (Canada at least) showing fire fighters and Emergency personnel like police and paramedics where the various kill switches are on the dangerous battery packs. These locations and technology changes vary from manufacturer to manufacturer and from auto to auto and probably will be standardized in the future. Additional items that may be necessary will be external and internal large emblems or text spelling out that the auto is a hybrid. There are some necessary changes coming.
There is no doubt that the so-called hybrids are an additional technology. However, driving an underpowered hybrid in fast city freeway traffic gives an instant defensive driving course to the driver. What was it...67 HP. Gee I had a 1967 Opel 4 speed stick shift that carted 4 of us and our books and briefcases to work getting 44MPG on the highway and city 25 mile drive into Philadelphia...1100CC and 90 HPs. Heck, it could even walk itself around the block on it's battery and starter motor (Opel had a lot of ignition wire problems.)
Oh yes, VW had a engine kill at stoplight system back in the 1970s.
Hybrids are probably here to stay...if they can solve some of the problems. by the way, there was a governor's conference in Des Moines Iowa last week where the 34 governors were carted around town by Chevrolet Suburbans... running on 85% methanol (corn squeezins to usa all). Hmmm, wonder if GM will bring that engine out soon! 89-90 test gasoline/ethanol mixtures are readily available here in Iowa at all gas stations for a 6-12 cent per gallon lower price than 87 octane regular unleaded at the same gas station. Yesterday I filled up at $1.99 a gallon for 89 octane gasahol when the regular 87 octane gas price was $2.12 a gallon. Of course Blue states want nothing to do with gasahol.
Seems autos like Prius will be sort of orphans in the hybrid wars as it looks like all the new hybrids are being put into very powerful high-end V-6s and V-8s. Too bad, we may never have anymore of a fleet of hybrid small cars.
Yes, oldjoe will have to be convinced,,,I have lived through the Edsel, the Yugo, GM Diesels, GM 4-6-8s, Mercedes go-slo diesels, 1980s Hyundais, Triumph's IRS, Citroen oil leveling, push-button transmissions, aqua cars, 3-wheel ATVs, Corvairs, Vegas, Electric Shifts, suicide doors, under-the seat gas tanks, fuzzy dice, glass packs, studded snow tires, dunebuggys, assemble-it-yourself car kits, Isetttas, Fiats, Crosleys, Kaiser/Frazer 3 doors (one welded shut)etc.... technology hypes that somehow never did cut it....maybe in my next life.
We all heard the 2004 hype about the superior intellect of the Demo prez candidate ... hype was enormous... until grades at Yale were finally released. If it is too hard to believe ,,,it usually is!
If you really want to get to know a Prius check out "Motor Trend" & "Car & Driver" they tell it like it is and believe this...They weren't giving accolades out without merit. That and the test drive totally convinced me that the "Smart Hybrid" would be my next car...at $20,689.00 plus tax out the door. I have had several cars too, like you. We must be close in (ol) age. ha! I too have had many good and not so good cars. A semi-automatic '53 Dodge , a '69 Opal GT(red of course), a 63 Impala SS (cherry), even a Corvair. I even built a VW Dune Buggy back in '68. Almost bought an Aqua Car except it almost sunk on a test drive. 50 plus cars and 20 motorcycles later I'm proud to take the big steps to hybrid cars. They are the car of tomarrow ..TODAY.
Railroadjames(toot-toot)
Was that an Amphicar?
http://www.amphicar.com/
I'll temper my statements by saying that I hope these cars succeed in the long term, because I am fascinated from an engineering standpoint. A superior route at this point? If it makes you feel better, sure....otherwise, nothing outstanding here compared to some other IC technologies.
railroadjames
However, my main concern is where would you ever find a mechanic to fix any hybrid problem... except hopefully at a qualified dealer! Trying to train every back yard and gas station mechanic is just not going to work. Let's see, will BBMCO fix a transmission problem and will QuickyLube understand that they cannot put any motor oil into a hybrid except the specified type...not a problem for the people with autos under warranty, but how about the aftermarket on used cars. Tecky's might understand but not the average USA driver who just puts gas in and maybe changes the oil every 8-10,000 miles. I am betting that the used car market for non-warranted hybrid used cars may wind up to be a bit thin!
That is a very good point. If you cannot find a mechanic that can work on your modern car after the warranty is up, you are in trouble. Dealerships and especially Toyota & Lexus are known for over charging on after warranty repairs. A car like a Prius is especially bad as there is little chance of finding an independent repair shop for the near future. Several posters are already feeling the pain of repairing a Prius that is out of warranty. A 2003 Prius should not have a $3800 plus repair bill. This happened with in days of her buying the car. Sounds like the someone dumped their Prius on an unsuspecting, would be advocate of the hybrid technology. She will now be a very vocal voice against the Prius. The Prius is a very visible symbol of the emerging hybrid technology. When 20 or 30 people stall on the highway it gets more headlines than the 800,000 trucks that Toyota had to recall. Toyota should have kept the 8 year 100k mile B to B warranty they offered on the original Prius. At least until all the bugs are worked out.
Is the mechanic at Joe's Service Station going to service your new GMC Sierra Hybrid for hybrid-technology-related concerns any time soon?
PS
Bob Baker Lexus, our once dealer, is asking ten thousand dollars markup for the RX400h on their lot. If that does not qualify as a thief, I don't know what might.