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What a compromise. Snicker. Sounds like me and my wife.
I like the looks of the Pilot better, the Ody looks a little like a 1960 Japanese version of a 21st century van if you know what I mean. I think it is the nose of the Ody. The big issue with the Pilot I don't need or care for AWD and the mileage is poor. Thumper had a good thought, if you only tow once a year, rent for the trip and save your car. My wife and I are coming to the same decision.
How long before someone makes the comparison to Twiki the Robot?
--> Andy
Did go out tonight to drive a Ford Expedition just to see what this big SUV was like. Alot of people we know are saying "Aren't you done with a minivan yet" Ready to move on to a SUV? Actually no I am not with 3 kids under 11. Expedition was big, it's a ford and way too mich gas.
Did go out tonight to drive a Ford Expedition just to see what this big SUV was like. Alot of people we know are saying "Aren't you done with a minivan yet" Ready to move on to a SUV? What is it about that some woman won't be seen driving a minivan? Have 3 young kids and minivan is much more practical. Expedition was big, gas guzzler and a ford, 3 big strikes.
--> Andy
When we talk about 2nd. row you keep pulling in 3rd. row.
when we talk about the structure, you keep pulling in transmission.
when I ask you why Lexus use it, you keep saying it's just a marketing ploy, However, when I questioning the hesitation, you claims that it must be reliable since Lexus is using it and it is by design, even though toyota can't provide the design spec.
When I say Honda will overnight 4 sets of tires mounted on the rims free and pay for your hotel stay, you keep saying only RR can do it and what if the dealer has one 1?
When we talk about easier 3rd row fold, you keep claiming toyota's 2 action is as easy if not easier.
When I say the Sienna is matching the old ody's crash performance, you keep saying the previous generation of Odyssey did not perform as well as Sienna, simply because the sienna was the best pick back in 1998? Even in the face of the NHTSA Crash Test showing the previous Odyssey 99-04 earned straight 5 in all cat., Please show us, how can your sienna earned more than 5?
So who is ignoring the fact and making false claim? and why your post #1281 got deleted? are you trying to hide something?
If your 1st. means best stands, you should have bought a DG, not Sienna.
As for which one people prefer/like, please let the market speak.
As for which one is better, let edmunds.com be the judge if you trust them.
I think we'll have to agree the disagree. And ask all readers just ignore our posts, go out to try both vans and find out the truth and facts themselves, then come back to see who is saying the truth.
Oh, yea, finally, I'll have to forgive you for your position to talk up the sienna to preserve your sienna's investment. And may be I should have joined your position to talk down the ody. so I and/or maybe we can get it cheaper.
I was shocked to learn it cost more to insure our old Subaru Forester vs. a brand new minivan. I'm guessing the problem was they categorized the Forester as an "SUV". Either that, or "minivan" is a ridiculously low insurance category.
--> Andy
Remember that the AWD Sienna XLE Limited comes with NO SPARE tire. Get a flat, you are struck. The FWD version DOES HAVE a spare tire. So You are golden.
I don't know how to change a tire so I think I would feel more comfortable with run flats unless you say they leave you unable to travel any distance whatsoever.
I was more worried about the Honda having the odd wheel sizes, but now I am thinking I should just wait another year and see if either Honda or Toyota fixes the tire issue! Although my dh might kill me if I don't make a decision now, he is salivating over driving my Saab 9-5 aero ( and I"m in no rush to give it up!).
The Dunlops that come standard on the AWD Sienna certainly could last longer. Most gripes in these forums have to do with tire life and cost. Expect to get about 20-25K from a set, and make sure you check your tire pressure and rotate regularly.
Run-flat, self-sealing, PAX tires for Minivans
Steve, Host
Steve, Host
I'm just now putting 2 and 2 together: You OWN a Touring (the unloved sister with no Nav or RES) and you're dissing the PAX system?
The trouble is that VSA must be shut off to use a donut spare tire (according to the owners manual) due to the difference in diameter of the spare compared to the other wheels.
Bottom line: You cannot get away from PAX wheels once you own a Touring model. I am locked in now. The damn dealer told me it would be no problemo to switch wheels if I wanted. But the owners manual is clear: If you have PAX, you gotta stick with PAX or your warranty is DEAD.
The manual also states that you cannot install snow tires on the Touring Ody either. What a crock.
So, here's to PAX. I have a vested interest now. Everyone go out and buy lots of PAX equipped Odysseys. I need this technology to spread like wildfire. But there is zero chance of that happening. This will be a doomed experiment.
Will your dealer allow you to return the Van? I know carmax has a five day return policy on their used cars, but don't think many new car dealerships have this policy.
This will keep the vehicle computer happy and let you use any wheel you want. I would stay with a tire/wheel combination that is w/in 5% of the PAC size. I'd get some wheels that are cooler looking .
I don't know what to say about the spare/doughnut problem.
Steve, Host
When we found out that we were expected our first child in December, we knew we had to augment our vehicle fleet with one that is spacious, child-friendly, and practical. Neither the Intrepid nor the TT was going to quite cut it. This was in May of 2004.
After overcoming the stigma associated with driving a minivan, we decided on a Sienna Limited AWD. The reasons included power liftgate, all-wheel drive, HID lights, space, Toyota build quality, and a rear-view camera. We would have to live with the fake wood, no CD changer (we wanted rear-view camera which required a screen that would be located where the changer would be), and the ho-hum performance.
At the point when we were about to put money down on one, we caught wind of a new 2005 Odyssey. We decided to wait for the arrival of the Odyssey and make a comparison. Ultimately, the Odyssey blew us away. It handled better than the Sienna. We did not have to give up the CD changer if we opted for the NAV (which was necessary for the rear view camera) since the NAV screen folded down to reveal the CD changer behind it. The voice activated NAV, A/C and stereo package was quite handy... no fumbling around while driving. However, I am semi-embarrassed to admit that the one thing that really push us toward the Honda was the absence of fake wood! We feel that for a $43K van (after all the options we wanted), Toyota could at least give us some real walnut. If not, just use aluminium or plastic. I'd take real plastic over fake wood (which is plastic) any day.
We have driven the Honda for about 1,000 miles now and we have no regrets (we also save $2k since the Honda was cheaper). That said, I am quite certain, however, that I will regret not waiting for the model with AWD and HID, if and when Honda decides to produce it. I supposed one can't have it all...
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I have a deposit on a Touring with nav and DVD here in NJ. Supposed to be delivered Dec 13. Just learned about PAX limitations. No one at Honda explained it or mentioned it. Nothing on Honda web site that says no spare or jack. Nothing in Odyssey literature.
Let me understand this:
No donut spare included or available?
No place to store a full size spare?
No jack included?
Can not switch tires with anything but PAX, not even a temp donut tire?
I spoke to Honda service at my dealer, they have NO PAX tire right now available! Seemed clueless...
I spoke to Michelin PAX so called customer service expert, who made many claims that he said were in the Michelin warranty about delivered PAX tires within 12 hours, free tows, free accomendations if tire was not delivered. Guess what I read warranty online. NONE of this is documented in the Michelin Warranty. He even claimed PAX tires in Canada, even though there seems to be no dealers there and no PAX tires on Hondas there!!! When I told him that he seemed stumped!!
Questions, What is in storage place in back where donut is usually stored in Touring model? Is there a jack included with Touring model? What was Honda thinking when they built a van with DVD and GPS that owners would be afraid to travel away from the limited amount of dealers with replacement PAX tires???
I probably will cancel my deal based on what else I find out here and from Honda! Very frustrated!
Thanks
Stephen A
Don't let the PAX tires turn you off. There is an excellent, informative, very comprehensive article, "Running Flat, Low and Flat out" in the January 2005 issue of ROAD AND TRACK (pages 138-142). Everyone having reservations about the PAX system should read the article. Especially note the difference between the PAX tire pressure sensors and the Sienna tire pressure sensors.
There have been several negative comments posted on this forum and on PAX forum. However, most of them seem to be based on the "fear factor" (what if my tire goes flat, what if I can't get to a dealer, what if--, what if--). After reading the ROAD AND TRACK article, I'm convinced that the advantages of the PAX system more than offset any hypothetical or real fears.
Although not mentioned in the article, the PAX tires have a treadwear rating of 500, indicating that the tire should have useful tread life for about 60,000 miles, (more or fewer miles depending on driving habits). That's about double what other run flat tires are providing. Also, the PAX tires are rated "A" for both traction (wet) AND temperature. This combination is found in very few tires.
Don't give up on the Touring until you've looked into the PAX issue for yourself. Don't let a bunch of naysayers do your thinking for you!
Its not just "what ifs" based on fear factor. As one of those who avoided Sienna AWD mainly because of the runflats, PAX issues are much worse than regular runflats, whatever a magazine may say. People have had nightmarish situation with regular runflats, but atleast they can be replaced with regular tires in a pinch. Not so with PAX.
Secondly, as long as one leases for two years, may be replacement cost is not a worry. Runflats themselves are pretty expensive (~$800 to 900 for a set of four) and it is not clear what will happen if you needed to replace one tire after the two year warranty period.
I think Honda goofed up big time here. Sienna's runflats were necessitated by the lack of space due to the AWD powertrain. Honda seems to me wanted to be on the bleeding edge of tire technology with their touring and they even got rid of the spare for no apparent reason!
Assuming tourings make up 10% of total Ody production, they probably are making 20K a year, so the chances of PAX catching up in the consumer market is rather slim unless other manufacturers follow Honda's lead sooner than later.
Personally, since I tend to keep my cars for 10 years or more, PAX is a big no no for me.
I am disabled, so run flat tires are important to me, and PAX appears to be the best system available considering treadwear, temperature rating, rolling resistance,compliant sidewall structure and accuracy of the tire pressure monitoring system.
I admit that I'm an optimist by nature, but I do believe the PAX system will be a winner. It is without doubt the best system out there today.
Thanks for the reply. I appreciate it. But I am not afraid of technology, nor do I doubt it is better and worth it. But this is simply a case of letting ENGINEERS make business decisions for consumers, which has never really worked. I know I am an ENGINEER. These "what ifs" are REAL problems for someone who drives past his neighborhood.
PAX tires may be forgotten about or changed alot in 5 years. I bet Honda will make them optional sooner rather than later, like on other vehicles when the backlash from consumers hits. Even the guy in the Honda service dept told me this.
I drive a 2001 Chrysler T&C now and have 94,000 miles on it already. I plan on driving to Canada next summer from NJ. There are NO PAX dealers or tires in Canada! There are NO Michelin certified PAX dealers in NYC!!!!!
I spoke to my local Honda dealer service dept where I have my deposit. NO PAX in stock right now. If I do get stuck on road with a flat (I have had 3 flats in the past three years) the BEST I could hope for is driving out of my way to find a dealer. The worst is sitting over a weekend waiting for an expensive tire to come in a remote place! No donut tire available for this vechicle. Full size tire has no place to fit. Can not put a non PAX tire on van, even in a pinch!
After 60,000 miles I then can be lucky enough to pay premium for new hard to find PAX tires. Which will happen on my 2-3 year old minivan that cost almost 40K.
Honda should have made these optional for those who wanted them on Touring models. Honda should be held accountable for NOT telling customers the limitations of replacing PAX tires. Nothing on their web site, nothing in writing, nothing on van at dealer, nothing on their brochure, nothing on invoice, salesmen seemed to neglect telling me... I found out on this forum only after my deposit was placed! If Honda was so sure of themselves, it would NOT have been hid from buyers! Why not have a replacement tire included until this system catches on, if it does?
I work in technology. One thing I know is a more expensive, hard to fix or replace product will fail without a great business plan. Honda seems to have missed the mark with this one. Good luck with PAX, I will buy it when it IS a STANDARD, not before!
I am going to look at Toyota Sienna again tonight and will compare price, features, and delivery time to EXL-RES-NAV with as many options, even with its anemic radio/sound system!
All the ratings and technology is just wonderful until you are stuck or need replacement at a very high price! PAX as I find out has been around for some time in europe and has NEVER "caught" on to mainstram even there. With only one van, one model, Honda and Rolls Royce using PAX here. NO regular tire place will fix these anytime soon, probably never.
Check out the tire tool manufacturers web sites. PAX is not a big deal to them and they supply the tools for tire shops. One even stated "since small tire shops will never really see a PAX tire, it is NOT worth the expense to outfit to repair a PAX tire". NOT even Michelin's, the inventor, PAX certified shops are fixing these in most places. All they have is a PAX tire for swap in stock, you can hope, I checked! Same with Honda dealers, swap is what they do , NOT repair.
Might be a nice class action suit coming soon to Honda at this rate. I will be getting my deposit back, Thank You.
Sorry for the long post. But I am a bit frustrated. I appreciate the feed back from you all.
Stephen A
Today I bought a Toyota Sienna XLE Limited which actually has the same equipment and some more things the Honda did not. But has "REAL" tires and a spare! Same exact price as dealer matched Honda deal.
I hope Honda is listening. I was all set with the Odyssey and cancelled ONLY due to having NO choice of tires. As much as I thing PAX technology may be great, having limited replacements and NO repairs ridiculous on a vehicle made for travel. Now when I need tires on the Toyota Sienna I will have choices and NOT pay premium of what ever Honda and Michelelin feels like charging.
I think it is terrible how many Honda buyers have no idea about PAX, as Honda is hiding these limitations from consumers. Nothing in brochures, nothing on their web site, nothing on invoice or car. I found out in these forums. Thank you Edmunds!
All the great technology goes out the window when you are stuck on a remote road on a Saturday night on a vacation or when you are stuck paying double or triple or worse for a regular replacement of worn tires.
Bet Honda will change the PAX only in 2006 or sooner when they see what they lose.
Stephen A
Edmunds long term test 1999 Odyssey EX was 18.3 MPG and 2004 Sienna XLE is 16.0 MPG. By comparison, the long term test 2004 Quest SL was 17.8 which is the same as the 2001 GC ES 17.8 MPG.
Why doesn't the 5 speed AT of the Sienna deliver better gas mileage than the old fashioned 4 speed AT of the other 3?
- Sienna requires premium gas for its rated 230HP. If regular gas is used, power drops to 220HP. Ody gives you 255HP with regular gas.
- With the most HP and sport car handling, The Ody will out accelerate and out handle all minivans out there, if you are a sport car guy type of person.
- Ody has the highest residual/trade-in value, per USAToday article,
http://money.cnn.com/2004/12/08/pf/autos/residual_value/index.htm
That should be a good test as to how durable they are!
I didn't get to check out one up close, so I don't knwo wha tmodel it was, or what they did with the interior.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I didn't really hear "sports car handling" and "minivan" mentioned in the same sentence did I?
Also, have you dynoed a Sienna with and without premium fuel since you're throwing out HP numbers? I didn't find any difference in timing advance at WOT between the two. Without a difference in timing advance there shouldn't be a difference in HP either.
1. Max HP is rated at over 5000 rpm on both vehicles. The HP at 3000 rpm is a much better metric of useful power. I do not have the curves for each engine so I do not know the truth on this.
2. Sienna torque reaches 242 ft-lbs at 3600 rpm. The Ody doesn't reach its' 250 ft-lbs until 5000 rpm. When pulling, etc. low rpm torque is more important than high rpm HP.
3. I drove our brand new Sienna from D.C. to home and measured the fuel mileage. I averaged between 26 and 28 mpg with 5-speed on the interstate at 70 mph using regular (87 octane) gas. Averaged about 23 mpg when running in 4th gear at 65 mph.
4. Sports car handling? I've driven the Odyssey many times and am certainly impressed with the variable velocity steering "feel" that Honda uses in all of their vehicles... but sports-car like?.
5. Resale value: supply, demand and quality will drive resale values as will how well you keep it. Where I live, there are more used Odysseys for sale than Siennas. Trust me, Siennas hold their value extremely well around here--which is why I bought new.
6. Toyota recommeds premium fuel? Where did this come from? All documentation states 87 octane and I can testify that it runs perfectly at this level (no knocking, pinging, etc.). Maybe it would matter under heavy towing load since the engine may want to adjust the ignition timing a bit? Clarification/references are needed.
7. The Sienna has a higher power-to-weight ratio than the Odyssey. Acceleration probably has more to do with how the transmission is geared than anything else. Low-end pulling power will suffer the acceleration and vice-versa. I personally want low-end torque since we sometimes pull a trailer. Thinking of that... only the Sienna comes standard with a 3500 lb tow rating. All Siennas come standard with heavy duty alternator, cooling, etc. The new Ody does not (one of those trade-offs that Honda decided to make to pay for the extra goodies on the inside I suppose).
Still, if you feel this way, then others must as well. I hope Honda Corporate types monitor these forums.
I do think it's silly that so many people are scared of run-flats in general. But the real issue is conventional run-flat vs. PAX-- sort of like VHS vs. Beta....
It's a bit of apples and oranges, though. Sienna AWD has run-flats because it HAS to. Odyssey Touring seems to be PAX-laden for no good reason.
I have driven both the Ody and Sienna and I have to agree with C & D on the reasons why they chose the 2004 Ody over the 2004 Sienna. The 2005 Ody has raised the bar even further!
Since this didn't happen you disagree.