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Sienna: 18.11
Now, with a virtually a coin toss, and the Honda having a better 0-60 time. Which one gets better gas mileage, on regular (cheap) gas, and makes more horsepower. Horsepower is what gets you off the line and on your way merging into traffic faster.
Let me also toss reasle in there, we know who won that award....
link
Steve, Host
sorry, i couldn't resist...
seems most of this thread is now devolving into devoted point / counter-point with regards to fairly minute issues which have already been ferreted pretty well.
isn't there something more novel to compare the vans on and discuss?
maybe some team should toss rocks at these vans to simulate material "comming from the road surface" to identify which manufacturer's paint holds up better, or run some stop light fire drills to see which van can have their 2nd row seats pulled more quickly during an absurd emergency, or something else significant like those.
http://auto.consumerguide.com/auto/new/reviews/full/index.cfm/id/- 38134
Ody Touring: 4634 lbs @ 255HP P/W = 0.0550 HP/LB
Sienna LTD: 4165 @230HP P/W=0.0552 HP/LB
So, Sienna is marginally higher. I don't think for regular driving you'll ever see any difference between the two and also I don't think 0 to 60 times will be significantly different.
Sienna runs on regular gas and develops peak torque @3600 rpm compared to say @4500. I have never used anything other than regular in mine. I don't think I've ever crossed 3500 rpm on my Sienna tach, so haven't used the peak HP @5500 rpm. The van cruises effortlessly below 2000rpm on highways at 65mph, IIRC. For 80mph the tach shows 2300 rpm or so, again IIRC. So, unless of course Ody is geared to be in the 4000s rpm in lower gears, one wouldn't see much of a difference in anything (merging etc.).
Siennas do get comparable if not better mileage. Really, it is too early for any verdict on the 05 Odys. You hear in these boards people getting far below the Ody EPA figures. Sienna folks are even getting more than 28mpg on 100% highway driving, although my average has only been ~23mpg in mixed driving. I wish it was 25, but hey, I got only 17mpg with the 3.3L engine on my 93 T&C.
"seems most of this thread is now devolving into devoted point / counter-point with regards to fairly minute issues which have already been ferreted pretty well. isn't there something more novel to compare the vans on and discuss?"
Don't you know? We go around in circles here! However, when someone says ACE structure is the best since sliced bread without evidence, it has to be responded to, particularly in light of sales misinformation. Also, did you know, people throw marbles at dummies during crash tests? That's novel, for sure! LOL.
The differences tend to be more in the personal preference areas (styling, specific "gotta have" features, handling vs. ride).
So, every buyer needs to try them both (and any other possibilities), and decide what they like best, and go with it.
I can almost guarantee that no one else on this board has exactly the same criteria, in the same order of importance, as I do, so YMMV.
And sometimes one key item is enough for a person to eliminate a choice, even if most other people think it is insignificant. Doesn't mean it isn't important to them though (or that they deserve ridicule).
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
One factor I'm considering, but may not be a deal breaker, is the 3500 towing capability of each van. Toyota says no package is necessary to tow up to 3500 lbs. Honda needs a pkg. which
will not be available until February. Price is unknown, however a service tech estimated ~$1300.00 based on the towing package for the Pilot. Has anyone towed up to 3500 lbs on the Sienna? I don't expect to tow often, but with 3 boys, bicycles and camping gear, the situation may present itself during the summer months.
My boys prefer the Odyssey, for the ease in entering the 3rd row. My husband doesn't care except that I make a decision soon. I've got Honda dealers down to ~$2200.00 off MSRP $99.00 doc fee on an EX. When you compare an LE w/the BZ pkg, the two vans are virtually identical in safety features, options and price. I've got a Toyota dealer quote for an LE w/ BZ pkg @ $26,050.00.
I am dizzy with pros and cons on each vehicle. If someone has something to share regarding towing capability or anything else, I welcome your 2 cents.
It's true that the Sienna comes with the towing "pre-package" off the factory line. The Odyssey would be installed as a dealer option. Both vans likely would need to have a set of air bladders installed in the rear suspension in order to tow a significant load. This is not for load capacity, rather that with a low-slung minivan, you're going to be scraping bottom with a load. This is well-documented with the Sienna even with a 1 1/2" higher ground clearance. So likely both vans will have this problem.
Depending on where you're going, a lot of folks on camping/trailer boards recommend you try to stay under 80% of your tow capacity when you're actually on the road. This will accommodate errors in estimating how much weight you're really carrying, and to have decent performance on the road, especially if you have to negotiate hilly terrain.
Just wanting to be sure you know what you're getting into if you really need to tow all 3500 of those pounds.
Beyond that, it sounds like you're gotten quotes for both vans similarly equipped for a very similar price. Go with what suits your personal tastes, they're both good vans.
--> Andy
BTW, they will not need to install anything in the rear suspension, both vans are rated for 3500 lbs, the Odyssey can tow 4500 on a boat with approved and rated trailer. I am unsure on what the Sienna book says about boats and 4500 lbs of tow capacity.
wen
First, they are both very good vehicles, hard to go wrong with either. However, we had certain criteria for our van which made the decision rather easy.
First, AWD would normally be very important here in Colorado. Mountain driving in the winter can be tough without AWD. However, we are keeping our GMC Yukon XL (which has 4 wheel drive), so AWD on a van wasn't an imperative. Front wheel drive is fine for 99.9% of the time around town. For the times when it is not, we've got the Yukon as a backup. We'll probably continue to use the Yukon for ski trips up to the mountains. Ground clearance can be pretty important when 12" of snow is dumped, so not sure how well a van would deal with that, AWD or not.
Second, with 3 kids and 2 dogs, we wanted space to be able to seat the 3 kids in the second row, fold down the rear seats and put the 2 dog kennels in the back. This meant we had to have an 8 seat van.
Third, we wanted dual power doors for ease of getting the kids in and out of the van. We also wanted leather as it seems to clean up from kid messes easier than cloth.
Since the Sienna doesn't offer an 8 seat version with dual power doors (not to mention leather in an 8 seat version), the Sienna just didn't meet our requirements.
The Odyssey comes in an 8 seat version with leather (EXL) and has dual power doors. The touring model is not offered in an 8 seat version, so that was not an option (we would have considered it if it had been available in an 8 seater, but the EXL RES fit the bill nicely).
So, that was it. Case closed. For our particular situation, the Odyssey gave us what we wanted and the Sienna did not.
I've owned the Odyssey for 48 hours now. It is my wife's van, I just got to drive it for the first time tonight for a quick trip to the grocery store. Very nice.
Shoot, I meant to post this to the Sienna vs Ody board. Don't see how to move it. Maybe the host/admin can move it over?
The must have feature was heated seats which we can get only on leather seats. With that requirement in mind we looked at Quest, Monterey, Sienna, and Odyssey. The first 2 were iliminated because quality and interior design. It was down to Odyssey and Sienna.
The deciding factors were handling, looks, interior design/quality, back seat entry/exit, vehicle high, and price. Odyssey comes out ahead in all these areas for us. Even having a Toyota dealer two blocks away could not compensate for the Sienna. For the price level we are willing to pay, Odyssey beats the Sienna hands down.
I think Sienna comes with power steering cooler, transmission oil cooler, heavy duty alternator/generator, and extra duty radiator already packaged in. I know someone here will correct me if I'm wrong
I see the new GM vans are not as fuel efficient as my '98 Olds, I get 22-23 city with some highway and easy 25-26-27 (conditions and speed variable) on highway trips.
But then again I don't have all those bells and whistles like Nav, laser cruise, backup TV, DVD, etc. Somehow we survive!
I'm going to sign off this forum, its all been said now its arguing!
Cheers,
Dirk
Sienna advantages:
HID
JBL sound
Radar Cruise
Telescoping Wheel
MPG! 2 better than Ody/VCM on both highway and city
Fit and finish (lexus) vs. Ody rattles and creaks (1st year)
Ody Advantages:
Voice command great for audio and a/c so-so for Nav
2nd row seat comfort!
Res 9" only slightly larger due to format
Steering effort higher..road feel / firmer ride
Ody driver seat is problematic for some. Basic design is fine problem could be lack of telescoping wheel to reduce stress on shoulder and upper spine.
Sienna 2row does not recline enough to be comfortable.
To compare apples to apples, one must have one testing agency perform the 0-60 tests on vehicles being compared instead of comparing vehicles tested by different testing agencies.
However if you use regular gas, the engine electronics(computer) will adjust the timing automatically for the lower octane gas which will result in a reduction of an estimated 5 - 10 hp.
"The Sienna needs/wants premium gas to get its advertised maximum 230hp. This was also stated in the June 2004 C & D minivan comparo as well."
How'd you know? I have the owner's manual and it says no such thing. Go back a few messages and read what exactly the manual says. C&D like so many review magazines is incorrect. I'd agree with C&D if they'd dynoed the van, but they had not. Someone had posted earlier based on *measurements* that the gas grade didn't seem to affect the ignition timing much at all.
So it is not surprising to hear what you said about the 05 Ody.
Even though I have an 04 Ody now, I am considering replacing my 10 year old second car with a new 05+ Ody when the timing is right. The Ody is just plain fun and "sporty" to drive in the way it handles and accelerates! The Sienna is just too quiet and not engaging enough!
20/28 Odyssey with VCM 255 HP (Regular 9all Honda models except S2000)
19/25 Odyssey without VCM 255 HP regular gas.
So how can the Sienna have a advantage, maybe you can explain that.
Fit and finish....joke, they both are comparable. What about hesitation of the acceleration, that an advantage also? What about standard safety features? HID is also only on the more expensive Sienna models(XLE Limited).
Honda did drop the ball on the HID.
You should also add that since premium gas cost about 10+%(extra 20 cents/gal) more than regular, that on a normalized cost(to regular gas)basis, the Ody's fuel consumption on regular gas is 10+% better than the rated numbers for fuel consumption/cost comparison vs the Sienna using premium gas.
For clarity,
1 gal of premium gas = 1.10+ gal of regular gas on a cost basis
link
Steve, Host
Steering and throttle response better than Sienna. Sienna is excuted better and has a big advantage in MPG in real life. Each had great features the other lacked.
Picked up a Sienna Ltd FWD #2(HO)Navi for #35,085.00 +T/L (socal) Seems like a great value. I can offset the steering response and handling with a good set of Yokohama's Sienna's have crappy highway spec tires!
Both are great vans to pick between them is a coin flip! Thanks to all the Ody and Sienna fans for a informative chat and Kudos to the host.(Steve)
Where have you ever seen an article or a posting that a Sienna has to have premium fuel to get maximimum mpg. Please post a link... I'm waiting.
Regular gas can be used as the engine electronics will compensate the timing for it. But there will be a penalty of some lost power due to it. However, many "non-car" guys will not notice it or care.
Remember the MDX uses the same 3.5L Ody engine that is rated at 265hp in the MDX, vs 255 in the Ody. But the MDX recommends premium gas as the engine has been tuned for that premium gas.
As a "car guy," I neither noticed nor cared (except that I saved .20 per gallon over 70,000 miles).
The vehicle never displayed the slightest sign of hankering for premium.
Wants premium gas for what? The manual states that you may want to use premium gas for increased performance. I know this because I read it. That is all that it says. You are pulling this stuff out of thin air about premium fuel increasing gas mileage.
How many "car guys" drive a minivan?
You state that if you research it more you are sure that you can find some support. So find it... Post links... I'll wait.
And don't cross post to another posting by a car salesman or Honda fan, lets see an authoritative source.
Does this scare you (anybody)?... it certainly does me!...
What salespeople say? or how people interpret?
How long do you plan to have the van? 2-5 years?
I do and I know quite a few others that do as well. My other car is a 475 hp sports car that spends, well used to spend before kids, a great deal of time at the racetrack. I had a big 4 door sedan that was still fun to drive (Q45) as a family hauler before finally getting tired of frequently running out of space, and loading kids in and out of the back seat. I decided to get a Sienna instead of a Yukburbhoe like 75% of my neighbors because it is a much better family hauler and I have no need to tow, which is the only advantage they have over a minivan. If you're not concered with what others think of your vehicle, a minivan is a much better drive than a SUV of comparable space.
There just doesn't seem to be much difference between regular and premium fuel in a Sienna. Many people inluding myself don't see any difference in mileage, and I've datalogged ignition timing using OBDII software with both, and there aren't any big differences between the two. I don't know of anybody who's done any performance testing, but I sure don't notice any difference other than the car feeling a little more responsive at throttle tip-in with premium. Honda salesman will undoubtedly continue to tout this as a big advantage of the Odyssey, but it just isn't true.
Car and Driver also thinks the DVD player can't be played over the speakers and that the Sienna has a backup beeper, neither of which are correct either.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2003-03-21-drive2_x.htm
Article in USA Today by James R. Healey.
Quote,
"·How thirsty? FWD is rated 19 miles per gallon in town, 27 on the highway. AWD is 18/24. Premium fuel is specified. Toyota says regular can be used with slight, unspecified, losses in power and fuel economy."
Doubt you will believe this one either. This has been ridiculous and too personal. Can we move on the more important issues
People hear things and report them back. This isn't a court of law.
Honda may have ruined my sales expereince with them for a long time going forward. NOT properly informing consumers the real FACTS, limitations, and costs associtaed with the proprietary tire technology that they and Michelin are FORCING on Touring owners. NOT a great move when consumers realize they have been cornered! But you can read all about PAX in the PAX tire RFT forum.
My other reasons I like the 2005 Sienna XLE Limited over the Honda Touring are:
Better smoother ride, much quieter, bigger moon roof, laser cruise control. sound system is much better in Sienna, nicer fit and finish in interior, back seats that fold into floor much better made than Honda Touring (no plastic latches that break), Roof rack comes with cross bars and was NOT "conned" into paying extra for such a simple item for a 40K luxury minivan, storage for spare under van, more comfortable seats, power seats on BOTH the driver and passenger side, better heated seat control, third row seats open out on Sienna unlike Touring, sun shades in BOTH the second and third row seats are standard, 115 volt outlet in both rows on Sienna not just the second row like Touring, nicer carpeting in Sienna, traction control in Sienna, extra storage in doors under armrests, but most of all no PAX tires with RFT are an option. Toyota RFT are standard size. Sienna has a spare even if it is a donut!
I am very happy with my choice. Glad I had a choice on tires.
The Honda ODDY (pun intended) is a nice van. Drove it twice. Almost bought it. As far as the gas mileage and handling both vans are close with Sienna having some things better as I mentioned. 2 miles per gallaon is subjective to real world driving and NOT great difference. The NAV in Toyota seems nicer, but I have NOT tried it as I have the Sienna. The Sienna uses the same NAV as the Lexus and it is extremely nice.
Resale value may get hurt on 2005 ODDY, when Honda decides it lost too many sales to Toyota and others and see how many people choose the EXL instead of Touring. Then finally make PAX tires an option, not a requirement. Then YOU may have THAT ONE!
A .3 in 0-60 is a "who cares" as this is a van not a sports car.
NOT going to matter much when you are searching for a replacement tire on a weekend or live in snow area as there are NO snow tires for PAX.
Sorry Honda, you blew it with me! My suggestion is get informed and buy what fits you. BUT know all the FACTS. For me 40K is a lot of money to spend. So be careful. Paying so much for replacement tires from ONLY ONE source was not a great idea. So I bought a Toyota and found it nicer anyway.
Stephen A
Honda...are you listening?
No doubt there are other "Stephen A's" out there that may feel the same way.
"You can find the recommended fuel octane rating for your vehicle on the back cover of your Owner's Manual.
Our current model year vehicles have the following unleaded fuel octane rating recommendations:
MODEL OCTANE
<snip>
Sienna 87*
* For improved vehicle performance, the use of premium unleaded gasoline with an octane rating of 91 or higher is recommended."
Steve, Host
Some of these obviously are Honda salesmen, who would rather mislead people than telling the truth. Clearly, 230 HPs are with regular and one may get a few more with premium grade.
Steve, Host