There is nothing like a meaningless categorization that categorizes exactly nothing.
You forgot categories 3) and 4):
3) Drivers who care about performance and driving enjoyment but do not apply these criteria when purchasing minivans.
4) Drivers who have test driven both the Odyssey and Sienna and have found that their Dodge Neons can handle much better (even as the oil is leaking).
5) (the bonus category) Deluded minivan owners who are trying to escape their middle-age crises by imagining that their minivans can or even should handle like cars while they go back and forth to the local supermarket or their children's soccer games.
My daily driver has roughly twice the horsepower of the Odyssey but I don't consider myself a sports car fan as I simply don't have time for the track and much prefer the utility of a safe four door.
However, I always prefer driving a car with good handling characteristics. Good acceleration and traction are important considerations as well. I also hate squeaks and rattles.
Believe it or not, I picked the Odyssey Touring simply because it has navigation in Canada and the more expensive Sienna doesn't.
I also prefer the interior of the Odyssey as I find the Sienna's interior not to my liking, I am never a big fan of the Toyota/Lexus wood (too red/orange, very gaudy IMHO). The all black interior of the touring looks much classier and less dated.
Thirdly, the Odyssey has a very nice RES with a huge screen, not sure if the Sienna has the same for my baby.
For the above three reasons, I did not even bother test driving the Sienna especially since navigation is a must.
HID would be nice. Here on the west coast, it's handy to have AWD in the rain but from my limited experience with front wheel based AWD systems, torque steer is still there. Neither will be that much fun to push to the limit.
To me, the Odyssey doesn't handle that well (compared to our other sedans and wagons) and if what I hear is correct, the Sienna is even more boat like which is rather alarming.
All in all, the enjoyment derived from finding my new restaurant reading the Zagat reviews in the Odyssey plus the DVD navigation beat the pleasure from the HID and AWD.
Luxurious features are great. The new M5 may have more horsepower than the Odyssey and Sienna combined, but it surely doesn't have the nifty auto trunk/tailgate closer!
By the way, I find both vans really quite ugly. Why can't I have my standard Honda silver without the pearl tint? There, I have said it.
Overall, I have to say I have been extremely happy with the Odyssey Touring.
"Should be at least 800+hp to play the game in the race tracks!
Just ask any serious race car driver."
I was going to try and stay out of this moronic discussion, but quips like that are hard to ignore.
Macakava, has it occurred to you that the VAST majority of cars entered in SCCA (that's Sports Car Club of America in case you don't know) competition make SUBSTANTIALLY less than 800hp? That make SUBSTANTIALLY less than 500hp?
Why don't you try dropping about $5k on a 'gently used' Miata spec racer and trying your hand at some real racing before you run your mouth about who qualifies as a 'real race car driver'. Personally, I'm hoping you just managed to offend a few thousand folks who would otherwise be considering an Odyssey. Or I guess that if they don't herd some 800 hp 'real' race car around the track, they aren't really 'car' guys.
ewt - nice video. It appeared that you were taping from a hand held video from a passenger in the back seat rather than bolting the camera to a roll bar. Do they ordinarily allow passengers while hot lapping at Thunder Hill?
I made a fairly comprehensive list of the differences between the two vans (Ody EX-L and Sienna XLE) this weekend and have a question for Ody owners:
Is rear-seat audio (w/ wireless headphones) available ONLY if you have the RES, or do the regular EX-L models have this? This feature is standard on all Siennas XLEs whether they are DVD equipped or not and I can see this as being useful when the kids want to listen to their CD's while my wife and I may prefer silence.
I was going to point out the spec Miata angle myself, but didn't bother. It's pretty amazing how fast a good driver can go with only 120 hp. My best lap at Thunderhill is only about 3 seconds faster than the Spec Miata lap record there.
The video was taken from a not-very-steady mount in my car. I don't have a roll bar to mount the camera to, so it bounces around a little. I've never attempted to fix it because it gives you more of a sense of what it feels like in the car on a fast lap. Thunderhill allows passengers, but they don't allow them to hold cameras in the car anymore.
In general, I like my vehicle to feel as "sporty" as it can for the type of vehicle it is. Sporty being about as relative as a term gets.
When we test drove the Ody this weekend, my wife barked the tires leaving the dealer. She was really embarrassed, but simply said "It's just that it's a MINIVAN! I thought I would have to put my foot down to get it to move." It's got terrific torque for the size and type of vehicle, and it's readily available. The Sienna is by no means underpowered, but it required much more pedal travel to achieve a vigorous response.
I hate to think about it, but at some point me or my wife will probably have to attempt an avoidance maneuver in the van. One of the things I thought about before deciding we would purchase the Ody was "Which van would I rather be in if I had to use some unusual tactics to avoid a bad situation?" The answer is absolutely the Odyssey. Basically, everything about the way the Ody drove inspired more confidence than the Sienna.
From the looks of the video, ThunderHill looks like a fairly fast track when a high hp car would have more of an advantage. My cousin (who owns, and races, a '66 Shelby GT350 and 289 FIA Cobra) tells me that on small technical tracks (2nd Creek outside of Denver and Hallett outside of Tulsa), he has fits with those 'little girlie 4-banger' Caterham 7's.
I've also been on the 3.9 mile road course at Texas World Speedway and watched spec Miata's irritate the heck out of ZO6 Corvettes through the road course. The Corvettes would have better than a 50yd advantage at the end of the front straight; the Miatas would be run up their tailpipe by turn 7.
Maybe if those Corvettes would have had the Odyssey suspension setup......
Ncguy - I completely understand that point of view. That's generally been a big consideration for me when I've bought cars in the past. I and others just object to being classified as a "Aunt Mildred" because it wasn't THE overriding factor in our purchase decisions. They're both excellent minivans, and either one is a great choice depending on what you like better. As a car guy, I actually wonder whether I would have just been happier just keeping the Q45 I used to have as a family hauler since minivans are less than inspiring to drive. The grass is always greener I guess.
Also, if emergency handling is a big concern, I'd suggest doing something like autocrosses to increase your skill at driving a car at or beyond its limits. The vast majority of drivers don't know how to drive a car anywhere near its limits, so small differences in handling capability aren't very meaningful anyway.
Re;smaller van that can still seat 7 (with manual shift as an option)
Unfortunately the Euro/Japan only Toyota Previa isn't available in the States (think of it as a Sienna on a diet) but an even smaller contender is coming this summer - the Mazda5 - slightly smaller externally than the Mazda MPV but similar internally, second & third rows fold flat and has sliding side doors. However would need a MazdaSpeed version to keep some of you guys happy.
You can check it out on the Canadian Mazda Website under Upcoming link (Mazda US have no info but Ford has announced that the Mazda5 will come to the States):
Geez, I fall asleep for a few hours and all of a sudden I find myself in the middle of a Miata message board???
ncguy1 makes a good point about emergency maneuvering as a possible criteria for car selection that could bring driveability into play in such an "unworthy" class of vehicles.
I actually think taking a good driving school coupled with lots of driving experience would be far superior to simply joining an autocross. Not only would there be mass confusion as a flood of trash-talking minivan drivers suddenly appeared at the next autocross (then again, maybe this would be a GOOD thing), but you need to have the experience to build from in order to understand what you're experiencing on the track. I've seen plenty of bozos taking their "gently used" Miatas onto the track and have no utter clue what to do when they push past their limits and go sliding through some cones.
Let me see if I can summarize the differences between the fully loaded versions of these minivans.
ODYSSEY:
Voice controlled Navigation
sportier handling
Pax run flat tires (might be a disadvantage)
6 CD changer (you can't get that in a Sienna with nav, right?)
adjustable pedals
SIENNA:
HID headlights
softer ride
Bluetooth phone
laser cruise control
teloscopic steering wheel
Am I missing anything big? You can always add HID headlights to the Odyssey or a voice controlled navigation system to the Sienna in the aftermarket. Adjustable pedals vs. telescopic steering wheel is pretty much a wash to me. The difference in ride firmness isn't huge. So, the two vehicles look pretty comparable to me. They both look like excellent choices. If Nissan worked out the initial bugs from last year's model, then there are three good choices for 2005.
"You can always add HID headlights to the Odyssey"
Why? Odyssey has very bright headlights. HID is not always better; just read the Consumer Reports on the topic. I have HID on my Acura TL and they're no better than our Odyssey's headlights.
See, once again the wonders of personal taste. I find that the fashion trend of "centrist" dashboard layout to be a crippling error in the Quest. On the Mini Cooper, it's "retro", and it's only a little cumbersome because the car is so small.
On a big minivan, it makes no sense to me at all. I have a hard enough time with screaming kids in the back, now all the gauges are waaaay in the middle?
Ugh.
But yeah, you seem to have the big stuff. There's a lot of little nit-picky things in terms of ergonomics, screen sizes, interior materials that can come into play depending on your personal tastes.
We're on a message board talking/sparring/arguing about minivans. I think that makes us all "Aunt Mildreds."
But I get your point. To be honest, I thought the wife and I were going to go for the Sienna. I think of a minivan as a device for getting my family from here to there with the maximum about of COMFORT and convenience. Sounds like the Sienna, right? Plush, comfortable, seriously quiet. Just didn't work out that way. But it's a great van.
The center dashboard location of the instruments has been a big driving distraction to many folks, especially in a large vehicle.
Looking at the instruments directly ahead, instead of sideways, is a natural thing that requires less effort and is less tiring.
It is also very unusual to observe the left turn light signal appear to the right of the steering wheel(at least in the Saturn Ion). It is probably the same in the Quest and mini-Cooper - I cannot recall.
"There's a lot of little nit-picky things in terms of ergonomics, screen sizes, interior materials that can come into play depending on your personal tastes."
Yes, but I don't know if my tastes are the same as yours.
(meaning, that such things are highly subjective, and what may bug one person might actually please another, so if I'm bugged about where some switches are located, you might think, "Hey, I like it there instead!")
I thought we were supposed to post all our controversial preferences so that other people can tell us why we're idiots for caring about such things. Are you chicken? :^)
Cool! When I get back to the states in 2 years I'll definitely visit the Mazda dealer. Good work Mazda (or Ford, or whoever is running the show there).
Thanks everyone, I tried it today in the 8 passenger Sienna LE. The Sienna does definitely fit 3 carseats and does have LATCH for 3 seats. I tried 2 Britax which are large FF car seats and one Graco RF infant and they do fit well.
UNQUOTE
Great news, can I ask a variation on the same question:
Is it possible to place 2 FF infant seats in the 2nd row centre and "behind-drivers" position in the Sienna LE without the centre infant seat rubbing against the passenger side 2nd row if its is rolled forward.
...could you explain why tracking a car with an AT is "not ideal"? (i suspected your vehicle was a stick by the way). i'm hoping your response doesn't end with the fun factor. it could but i doubt it.
i'm not sure why anyone would want to track a vehicle with an AT myself. i suppose "you track what you got" and what you like to drive. track on.
but that wasn't where i was going.
i was trying to get back to the issue of controllability, since i *STILL* think a van with a MT would sell. you don't have to be on a track to derive pleasure (active engagement in the act of driving), benefit from increased controllability and fuel economy that a MT brings...
isellhondas: maybe another manufacturer besides Honda will morph their VAN, for fuel economy if for no other reason.
Sales numbers drive business. For minivan category, less than 5% of owners would like a MT.
Trade-in or resell time would be very difficult beacause 95+% of folks would want AT. Residual value will drop significantly for MT with fewer buyers(demand).
The headline could have read, Hondas minivan pulls ahead in power and weight, but not 0-60 mph time. The Newsday article reports a 0-60 time of 10 seconds. The 0-60 mph time also comes from a third party, Popular Mechanics.
Of course these two tests were performed on different days, using different model vans and test conditions. But this does seem highlight the fact that 0-60 testing is more than a little suspect. Getting such variable results from the same drivetrain makes you wonder how meaningful the measure is.
I think you can only trust numbers generated by the same driver, testing equipment and testing conditions.
I'm with ewt; my 'track' car (when I go) has a 6-spd manual. When my wife and I FINALLY pull the trigger on a minivan purchase (either Ody or Sienna), it will be the first automatic I've ever owned.
A stickshift in a minivan, in the US, is a non-starter. And I think the numbers of potential owners interested in a manual would be closer to 1%. There should actually be more demand for manual transmissions in SUV's (IMO) but those are also becoming extremely rare although my wife's 4runner 4wd does have a MT.
I don't understand the drop in residual value argument for MT vehicles however. Sure, the demand is lower. But the SUPPLY is also lower. What sets the residual value is the ratio between supply and demand, not JUST demand.
The ONLY time I pay attention to 0-60 times (when trying to compare two vehicles) is when the two vehicles were tested by the SAME drivers (or magazine) on the SAME day, under the SAME conditions.
In other words, I don't pay attention to the actual 0-60 times, only the DIFFERENCE in times between the two vehicles. And for minivans, unless the difference in 0-60 times was better than 1 sec., I would consider them to be essentially the same. Is there really any reason to get all worked up over a few tenths of a second? These are MINIVANS.......
"I thought we were supposed to post all our controversial preferences so that other people can tell us why we're idiots for caring about such things. Are you chicken? :^) "
Either that, or you'll notice that half my list is filled with falsehoods and misconceptions leading you to believe that I never set foot in the van. :^)
I have a MPV that I have loved. My family has now grown to 3 kids all in car seats. The problem is I now put two of the kids in the 3rd row, one in the middle while removing the second middle seat for space. This causes several problems- not much storage space (it is a pain to use the middle area as the kids have to get in and out), cant reach the kids or hardly hear them speak, cant help wipe a nose! Last and most important, I dont feel they are safe in that far back seat (Does anyone know if this is true). My wife wants a big SUV that she can put all three seats in the second row. I want to know if anyone puts three in the middle in the Sienna or Honda. With a split 3rd row and being able to put all three in the second, I think the van is still our best bet even without the 4 wheel drive which would be really nice with our STEEP driveway in Northern Indian weather. Thanks for any help and sorry for the long post. David
Torque off the line (0 to 30 from the stoplights) is nice, but some drivers need merging power more (30 to 60 on the freeway merge ramps). 0 to 60 numbers are less useful to many of us.
David, there was a discussion about this a while ago, but I don't remember if any consensus was reached:
I know that 3 car seats across the 2nd row works (from other posters comments) in the 8 seat version of the Sienna (CE and LE trim levels only). This probably works well in the Sienna because the middle seat can be staggered forward of the two outboard seats. FYI: all 3 mid row seats in the Sienna 8-seater have LATCH anchor points.
I don't know how well it works in the Odyssey with the +1 seat (EX versions only). IMO, the Sienna 8-seater 2nd row WOULD have been 'perfect' IF ONLY THEY HAD PROVIDED ARMRESTS for the 2nd row (anybody at Toyota reading this?). For that reason, I like the Odyssey EX +1 concept better (for me) because the two outboard seats are more comfortable and I still have the ability to carry (on occasion) a passenger in the middle.
However, both the Ody and the Sienna are somewhat wider inside than the MPV. You could probably fit 2 car seats very comfortably in the 2nd row of either van with the 2nd row seats together and leave more than adequate space for the oldest child to move to the 3rd row. From your post, it seems as though there isn't adequate room to access the 3rd row in your MPV when you've got two car seats in the middle row.
ahh, but you and ewt didn't say why you'd 'track' a car with a MT over an AT...only that you have a 6-speed to track. now why is that?
oh well, so much for trying to get you guys to fight my fight with isellhondas.
i see your point.
and yes, when we pulled the trigger on a van, we had no choice but to go with an AT. personally, i was unwilling to compromise in other aspects of the drivability of the vehicle so i went with a setup which responded most like previous vehicles i've owned (VW rabbit / scirroco, Mazda 323, VW Jetta GLI, Honda Accord).
i have to drive a van, but i don't have to drive any van.
you say a van with a MT is a non-starter. i only ask why. i'm thinking economics are not a static thing. look at the resurgence of interest in nuclear power generation. if the cost of fossil fuels makes it competitive then it happens.
and that's happening.
maybe when we in the US have to pay much more at the pump, something more in line with what europeans pay...maybe then the manufacturers will "educate us" [ha ha] and produce smaller VANs or SUVs, and hopefully with a MT.
and/or maybe by the time the ODY needs to be replaced, the kids are grown.
The only meaningful comparison is when all the manufacturer models are tested by the same one testing agency(i.e. C & D, R & T, Consumers Report).
The car specific agencies like C & D test the vehicles in a more spirited fashion to determine their true capabilities compared to the more liesurely fashion of say Consumers Reports, Popular Mechanics, etc. I suspect that Newsday may be testing more liesurely than CR.
I have found that all/most vehicles tested by C & D/R & T have posted 0 - 60 times at an average of 2 secs faster than CR.
This is getting pretty far off topic for a sienna/odyssey forum, but an auto tranny is always shifting when you don't want it to on a racetrack. It upshifts when you lift, so the engine doesn't provide much engine braking on the way into corners, then downshifts when you get back on the gas in the middle of the corner, upsetting the car. You want to be able to control what gear the car is in whether that's done with a normal manual transmission or a manumatic.
I'd be interested in a minivan with a manual transmission, but I suspect I'm in a very small minority. I'd be interested in that Mazda 5 minivan if Mazda didn't apparently mean "underpowered" in Japanese. Just about every car in their lineup needs another 40 hp. If they put the 6 cylinder from the Mazda 6 in it rather than a 2.3L four cylinder, that would be a minivan with some fun to drive potential.
Once you get used to automatic transmissions and have encountered traffic jams, you would not want to go back to MT. In fact, I remember clearly a long time ago while on a date when my hand slipped from the stick shift while changing gears rapidly. LOL
AT have become more efficient these days where the gas penalty is about 2mph average. This is no big deal and many would easily pay the small extra cost for the convenience of not shifting(unless you plan to be on a date).
In fact I read a while back where the AT in a particular vehicle was as fuel efficient or better than a MT in that application.
Running boards on a minivan serve more of a fashion/cosmetic statement than a useful purpose since the ground clearance is low and comparable to a car. It is like a silly SUV owner installing brush guards infront of his hood when his SUV sees only asphalt.
Besides the running boards add weight and air resistance.
However, if one is disabled physically for any reason, the running board in a minivan may be of help to enter the vehicle.
Running Boards, good idea? Its important to try a van with running boards. I have always wanted them, for their looks, until I drove a 2005 Sienna with them. My leg hit the board everytime I got in the van a normal way, not using it as a step. The vans are too low to actually use them as a step. I found a van with running boards at a dealer to test drive.
I find it interesting that a 'car guy' (as opposed to us Aunt Mildred types) prefers AT for convenience rather than a MT for the extra performance. And then, to back up the preference for an AT over a MT......fuel efficiency is brought into the picture?
I know this REALLY belongs in another forum, but I drive a manual because, as an Aunt Mildred type(?) I prefer increased levels of driver involvement, though it seems that 'car guys' (?) want......less driver involvement?
macakava, your logic is giving me a headache. Why don't we just stop characterizing Sienna fans as 'Aunt Mildred' types, Odyssey fans as 'true car guys', and move on to more important issues....like cupholder design! (where the Ody truely sucks....I mean, only 3 cupholders for the rear seat???? Why, that's only 1 per occupant!)
> I have always wanted them, for their looks, until I drove a 2005 Sienna with
> them. My leg hit the board everytime I got in the van a normal way, not using
> it as a step. The vans are too low to actually use them as a step.
So, in summary, everybody agrees that lghong67 should get the running boards, but he should also raise his car several inches so it will work properly, right?
It sounds like you're being sarcastic, but think about it seriously. Each kid back there needs one cup holder for his shot glass and another for his beer chaser. What else can they do when mama has PMS?
Comments
You forgot categories 3) and 4):
3) Drivers who care about performance and driving enjoyment but do not apply these criteria when purchasing minivans.
4) Drivers who have test driven both the Odyssey and Sienna and have found that their Dodge Neons can handle much better (even as the oil is leaking).
5) (the bonus category) Deluded minivan owners who are trying to escape their middle-age crises by imagining that their minivans can or even should handle like cars while they go back and forth to the local supermarket or their children's soccer games.
However, I always prefer driving a car with good handling characteristics. Good acceleration and traction are important considerations as well. I also hate squeaks and rattles.
Believe it or not, I picked the Odyssey Touring simply because it has navigation in Canada and the more expensive Sienna doesn't.
I also prefer the interior of the Odyssey as I find the Sienna's interior not to my liking, I am never a big fan of the Toyota/Lexus wood (too red/orange, very gaudy IMHO). The all black interior of the touring looks much classier and less dated.
Thirdly, the Odyssey has a very nice RES with a huge screen, not sure if the Sienna has the same for my baby.
For the above three reasons, I did not even bother test driving the Sienna especially since navigation is a must.
HID would be nice. Here on the west coast, it's handy to have AWD in the rain but from my limited experience with front wheel based AWD systems, torque steer is still there. Neither will be that much fun to push to the limit.
To me, the Odyssey doesn't handle that well (compared to our other sedans and wagons) and if what I hear is correct, the Sienna is even more boat like which is rather alarming.
All in all, the enjoyment derived from finding my new restaurant reading the Zagat reviews in the Odyssey plus the DVD navigation beat the pleasure from the HID and AWD.
Luxurious features are great. The new M5 may have more horsepower than the Odyssey and Sienna combined, but it surely doesn't have the nifty auto trunk/tailgate closer!
By the way, I find both vans really quite ugly. Why can't I have my standard Honda silver without the pearl tint? There, I have said it.
Overall, I have to say I have been extremely happy with the Odyssey Touring.
Just ask any serious race car driver."
I was going to try and stay out of this moronic discussion, but quips like that are hard to ignore.
Macakava, has it occurred to you that the VAST majority of cars entered in SCCA (that's Sports Car Club of America in case you don't know) competition make SUBSTANTIALLY less than 800hp? That make SUBSTANTIALLY less than 500hp?
Why don't you try dropping about $5k on a 'gently used' Miata spec racer and trying your hand at some real racing before you run your mouth about who qualifies as a 'real race car driver'. Personally, I'm hoping you just managed to offend a few thousand folks who would otherwise be considering an Odyssey. Or I guess that if they don't herd some 800 hp 'real' race car around the track, they aren't really 'car' guys.
ewt - nice video. It appeared that you were taping from a hand held video from a passenger in the back seat rather than bolting the camera to a roll bar. Do they ordinarily allow passengers while hot lapping at Thunder Hill?
Is rear-seat audio (w/ wireless headphones) available ONLY if you have the RES, or do the regular EX-L models have this? This feature is standard on all Siennas XLEs whether they are DVD equipped or not and I can see this as being useful when the kids want to listen to their CD's while my wife and I may prefer silence.
The video was taken from a not-very-steady mount in my car. I don't have a roll bar to mount the camera to, so it bounces around a little. I've never attempted to fix it because it gives you more of a sense of what it feels like in the car on a fast lap. Thunderhill allows passengers, but they don't allow them to hold cameras in the car anymore.
When we test drove the Ody this weekend, my wife barked the tires leaving the dealer. She was really embarrassed, but simply said "It's just that it's a MINIVAN! I thought I would have to put my foot down to get it to move." It's got terrific torque for the size and type of vehicle, and it's readily available. The Sienna is by no means underpowered, but it required much more pedal travel to achieve a vigorous response.
I hate to think about it, but at some point me or my wife will probably have to attempt an avoidance maneuver in the van. One of the things I thought about before deciding we would purchase the Ody was "Which van would I rather be in if I had to use some unusual tactics to avoid a bad situation?" The answer is absolutely the Odyssey. Basically, everything about the way the Ody drove inspired more confidence than the Sienna.
I've also been on the 3.9 mile road course at Texas World Speedway and watched spec Miata's irritate the heck out of ZO6 Corvettes through the road course. The Corvettes would have better than a 50yd advantage at the end of the front straight; the Miatas would be run up their tailpipe by turn 7.
Maybe if those Corvettes would have had the Odyssey suspension setup......
Also, if emergency handling is a big concern, I'd suggest doing something like autocrosses to increase your skill at driving a car at or beyond its limits. The vast majority of drivers don't know how to drive a car anywhere near its limits, so small differences in handling capability aren't very meaningful anyway.
Congratualtions!
Unfortunately the Euro/Japan only Toyota Previa isn't available in the States (think of it as a Sienna on a diet) but an even smaller contender is coming this summer - the Mazda5 - slightly smaller externally than the Mazda MPV but similar internally, second & third rows fold flat and has sliding side doors. However would need a MazdaSpeed version to keep some of you guys happy.
You can check it out on the Canadian Mazda Website under Upcoming link (Mazda US have no info but Ford has announced that the Mazda5 will come to the States):
http://www.mazda.ca/root.asp
Steve, Host
ncguy1 makes a good point about emergency maneuvering as a possible criteria for car selection that could bring driveability into play in such an "unworthy" class of vehicles.
I actually think taking a good driving school coupled with lots of driving experience would be far superior to simply joining an autocross. Not only would there be mass confusion as a flood of trash-talking minivan drivers suddenly appeared at the next autocross (then again, maybe this would be a GOOD thing), but you need to have the experience to build from in order to understand what you're experiencing on the track. I've seen plenty of bozos taking their "gently used" Miatas onto the track and have no utter clue what to do when they push past their limits and go sliding through some cones.
ODYSSEY:
Voice controlled Navigation
sportier handling
Pax run flat tires (might be a disadvantage)
6 CD changer (you can't get that in a Sienna with nav, right?)
adjustable pedals
SIENNA:
HID headlights
softer ride
Bluetooth phone
laser cruise control
teloscopic steering wheel
Am I missing anything big? You can always add HID headlights to the Odyssey or a voice controlled navigation system to the Sienna in the aftermarket. Adjustable pedals vs. telescopic steering wheel is pretty much a wash to me. The difference in ride firmness isn't huge. So, the two vehicles look pretty comparable to me. They both look like excellent choices. If Nissan worked out the initial bugs from last year's model, then there are three good choices for 2005.
Why? Odyssey has very bright headlights. HID is not always better; just read the Consumer Reports on the topic. I have HID on my Acura TL and they're no better than our Odyssey's headlights.
On a big minivan, it makes no sense to me at all. I have a hard enough time with screaming kids in the back, now all the gauges are waaaay in the middle?
Ugh.
But yeah, you seem to have the big stuff. There's a lot of little nit-picky things in terms of ergonomics, screen sizes, interior materials that can come into play depending on your personal tastes.
--> Andy
sure.
But I get your point. To be honest, I thought the wife and I were going to go for the Sienna. I think of a minivan as a device for getting my family from here to there with the maximum about of COMFORT and convenience. Sounds like the Sienna, right? Plush, comfortable, seriously quiet. Just didn't work out that way. But it's a great van.
Looking at the instruments directly ahead, instead of sideways, is a natural thing that requires less effort and is less tiring.
It is also very unusual to observe the left turn light signal appear to the right of the steering wheel(at least in the Saturn Ion). It is probably the same in the Quest and mini-Cooper - I cannot recall.
"There's a lot of little nit-picky things in terms of ergonomics, screen sizes, interior materials that can come into play depending on your personal tastes."
So, do you have your own list?
(meaning, that such things are highly subjective, and what may bug one person might actually please another, so if I'm bugged about where some switches are located, you might think, "Hey, I like it there instead!")
--> Andy
(I think that's the tongue-in-cheek emoticon)
Honda's minivan pulls ahead, with power, in its latest version (Newsday)
This one seems like a repeat:
Much better than good (My San Antonio)
Steve, Host
Thanks everyone, I tried it today in the 8 passenger Sienna LE. The Sienna does definitely fit 3 carseats and does have LATCH for 3 seats. I tried 2 Britax which are large FF car seats and one Graco RF infant and they do fit well.
UNQUOTE
Great news, can I ask a variation on the same question:
Is it possible to place 2 FF infant seats in the 2nd row centre and "behind-drivers" position in the Sienna LE without the centre infant seat rubbing against the passenger side 2nd row if its is rolled forward.
Thanks in advance.
i'm not sure why anyone would want to track a vehicle with an AT myself. i suppose "you track what you got" and what you like to drive. track on.
but that wasn't where i was going.
i was trying to get back to the issue of controllability, since i *STILL* think a van with a MT would sell. you don't have to be on a track to derive pleasure (active engagement in the act of driving), benefit from increased controllability and fuel economy that a MT brings...
isellhondas: maybe another manufacturer besides Honda will morph their VAN, for fuel economy if for no other reason.
Trade-in or resell time would be very difficult beacause 95+% of folks would want AT. Residual value will drop significantly for MT with fewer buyers(demand).
The headline could have read, Hondas minivan pulls ahead in power and weight, but not 0-60 mph time. The Newsday article reports a 0-60 time of 10 seconds. The 0-60 mph time also comes from a third party, Popular Mechanics.
http://auto.consumerguide.com/auto/new/reviews/full/index.cfm/id/- - - 38134 Auto Consumer Guide posts a 0-60 mph time of 8.3 seconds with an EX.
Of course these two tests were performed on different days, using different model vans and test conditions. But this does seem highlight the fact that 0-60 testing is more than a little suspect. Getting such variable results from the same drivetrain makes you wonder how meaningful the measure is.
I think you can only trust numbers generated by the same driver, testing equipment and testing conditions.
A stickshift in a minivan, in the US, is a non-starter. And I think the numbers of potential owners interested in a manual would be closer to 1%. There should actually be more demand for manual transmissions in SUV's (IMO) but those are also becoming extremely rare although my wife's 4runner 4wd does have a MT.
I don't understand the drop in residual value argument for MT vehicles however. Sure, the demand is lower. But the SUPPLY is also lower. What sets the residual value is the ratio between supply and demand, not JUST demand.
In other words, I don't pay attention to the actual 0-60 times, only the DIFFERENCE in times between the two vehicles. And for minivans, unless the difference in 0-60 times was better than 1 sec., I would consider them to be essentially the same. Is there really any reason to get all worked up over a few tenths of a second? These are MINIVANS.......
Either that, or you'll notice that half my list is filled with falsehoods and misconceptions leading you to believe that I never set foot in the van. :^)
--> Andy
David, there was a discussion about this a while ago, but I don't remember if any consensus was reached:
Minivan 3rd Row Seats Deadly
Steve, Host
I don't know how well it works in the Odyssey with the +1 seat (EX versions only). IMO, the Sienna 8-seater 2nd row WOULD have been 'perfect' IF ONLY THEY HAD PROVIDED ARMRESTS for the 2nd row (anybody at Toyota reading this?). For that reason, I like the Odyssey EX +1 concept better (for me) because the two outboard seats are more comfortable and I still have the ability to carry (on occasion) a passenger in the middle.
However, both the Ody and the Sienna are somewhat wider inside than the MPV. You could probably fit 2 car seats very comfortably in the 2nd row of either van with the 2nd row seats together and leave more than adequate space for the oldest child to move to the 3rd row. From your post, it seems as though there isn't adequate room to access the 3rd row in your MPV when you've got two car seats in the middle row.
oh well, so much for trying to get you guys to fight my fight with isellhondas.
i see your point.
and yes, when we pulled the trigger on a van, we had no choice but to go with an AT. personally, i was unwilling to compromise in other aspects of the drivability of the vehicle so i went with a setup which responded most like previous vehicles i've owned (VW rabbit / scirroco, Mazda 323, VW Jetta GLI, Honda Accord).
i have to drive a van, but i don't have to drive any van.
you say a van with a MT is a non-starter. i only ask why. i'm thinking economics are not a static thing. look at the resurgence of interest in nuclear power generation. if the cost of fossil fuels makes it competitive then it happens.
and that's happening.
maybe when we in the US have to pay much more at the pump, something more in line with what europeans pay...maybe then the manufacturers will "educate us" [ha ha] and produce smaller VANs or SUVs, and hopefully with a MT.
and/or maybe by the time the ODY needs to be replaced, the kids are grown.
The car specific agencies like C & D test the vehicles in a more spirited fashion to determine their true capabilities compared to the more liesurely fashion of say Consumers Reports, Popular Mechanics, etc. I suspect that Newsday may be testing more liesurely than CR.
I have found that all/most vehicles tested by C & D/R & T have posted 0 - 60 times at an average of 2 secs faster than CR.
I'd be interested in a minivan with a manual transmission, but I suspect I'm in a very small minority. I'd be interested in that Mazda 5 minivan if Mazda didn't apparently mean "underpowered" in Japanese. Just about every car in their lineup needs another 40 hp. If they put the 6 cylinder from the Mazda 6 in it rather than a 2.3L four cylinder, that would be a minivan with some fun to drive potential.
Do you find running boards to be a useful accessory on a minivan? (We have one child and are planning for at least one or two more).
Thanks in advance, Aunt Milliford (even more conservative than Aunt Mildred)
AT have become more efficient these days where the gas penalty is about 2mph average. This is no big deal and many would easily pay the small extra cost for the convenience of not shifting(unless you plan to be on a date).
In fact I read a while back where the AT in a particular vehicle was as fuel efficient or better than a MT in that application.
Running boards on a minivan serve more of a fashion/cosmetic statement than a useful purpose since the ground clearance is low and comparable to a car. It is like a silly SUV owner installing brush guards infront of his hood when his SUV sees only asphalt.
Besides the running boards add weight and air resistance.
However, if one is disabled physically for any reason, the running board in a minivan may be of help to enter the vehicle.
Aunty: Are you at that stage now?
I know this REALLY belongs in another forum, but I drive a manual because, as an Aunt Mildred type(?) I prefer increased levels of driver involvement, though it seems that 'car guys' (?) want......less driver involvement?
macakava, your logic is giving me a headache. Why don't we just stop characterizing Sienna fans as 'Aunt Mildred' types, Odyssey fans as 'true car guys', and move on to more important issues....like cupholder design! (where the Ody truely sucks....I mean, only 3 cupholders for the rear seat???? Why, that's only 1 per occupant!)
> them. My leg hit the board everytime I got in the van a normal way, not using
> it as a step. The vans are too low to actually use them as a step.
So, in summary, everybody agrees that lghong67 should get the running boards, but he should also raise his car several inches so it will work properly, right?
Neil
> I mean, only 3 cupholders for the rear seat????
> Why, that's only 1 per occupant!
It sounds like you're being sarcastic, but think about it seriously. Each kid back there needs one cup holder for his shot glass and another for his beer chaser. What else can they do when mama has PMS?
I'm in a strange mood today.
Neil