salsa - yes, I was being sarcastic. But you bring up an excellent point. To solve the problem of only 1 cupholder per 3rd seat occupant, all shots must be consumed PRIOR to leaving the house. Therefore, the single cupholders will still be adequate for the chasers (don't know that I've ever seen a cupholder capable of holding a shot glass securely anyway...)
greg_y - incorrect. I think you are confusing option package #47 (bartender special with the 60/40 split folding minibar) for package #33b. With this package, you not only get the additional cupholders, but a small port-a-john in lieu of the smaller portion of the split rear bench.
cargenie05 - yes, Honda and Toyota ARE owned by the same cabal. This cabal also oversees the Ford Company and misc. divisions (Volvo, Mazda, Jaguar), General Motors, and essentially every other vehicle motor company known to man. Through massive price fixing and draconian labor practices, the actual costs to produce the typical Odyssey is only $29.13. The rest is profit.
(j/k - Toyota and Honda are COMPLETELY different companies. About the only way they could be 'owned' by the same people would be if Joe Blow investor bought publically traded stock in both companies)
No, actually that's option package 47-b-prime-squared, which is not available in certain regions unless you also purchase XLE AWD Limited with HO Package and make a donation to the Prius-green fund. In other regions it's a free give-a-away if the dealer likes you.
Now the next question? How about rear spoilers? I see so many Siennas with those rear spoilers and I cannot for the life of me understand why they are so popular. Aside from very questionable aesthetic value (again, I will acknowledge the role of subjective taste), I'm puzzled. Maybe there are a few drivers out there who need stability at speeds of 90+ in the shopping malls?
A rear "spoiler" (which is not what is actually is) may help keep vertical glass (such as on the liftgate of a van or SUV) somewhat freer of dirt and grime.
Honda apparently thinks so since they are standard on the Pilot and Odyssey.
I haven't used tumblers for shot glasses since I was in college.....I think....it's all so fuzzy now....
Okay - back on topic...
My wife and I still can't decide between an Ody EX-L and a Sienna XLE. They each have unique features that we want; regardless of which one we chose, I'm afraid there's gonna be something (several things?) that we'll wish we could have had but wasn't offered. I sat down last night and made (what I think is) a comprehensive list of the things which we desire and were different between the two. Perhaps someone here will find this useful....or not:
Ody - Lazy susan, +1 seat, all safety features standard vs. packages only on Sienna, curtain airbags include rollover sensor, more legroom in 2nd and 3rd rows, tray table in 1st row AND ability to place console in 2nd row, (slightly) easier to fold 3rd row, manual easy closing rear hatch, lighted steering wheel controls and window switches, standard CD changer and moonroof, standard floormats and cargo net, larger conversation mirror, and easier(?) to access donut spare
Sienna - (fake) wood trim, power passenger seat, operating 3rd row windows w/ sunshades, power door switches accesible to both driver and passenger, additional power door switches in b-pillar, tri-zone automatic climate control, power rear hatch (but overly sensitive?), tumble-forward 2nd row seats make easier access to 3rd row, right hand 2nd row captains chair has integrated seatbelt so it moves with seat location, more hip/shoulder room, more cargo space behind 2nd and 3rd row, better JBL 10 speaker stereo, trip computer, low tire pressure monitoring system, armrest storage, can put console in either 1st or 2nd row, rear seat audio w/ wireless headphones, and includes towing package.
I did this list off the top of my head, but these are the OBJECTIVE differences I remember. Thinking completely subjectively, IMO the Sienna had a quieter, smoother ride and seemed to have a higher grade of interior materials (both plastics and leather). And while the Ody seemed 'noisier', it wasn't noisy per se. The Ody does handle 'better'. I've heard it called 'carlike'. Uh, no.....at least not 'carlike' compared to what I'VE driven in the past. I certainly would NOT confuse it's handling with an Accord.
I suppose that if the Sienna's handling were compared to a pig on ice, the Odyssey might be compared to an athletic, coordinated, pig on ice.
I think you forgot to mention the XLE Sienna's telescoping steering wheel that is unavailable on ANY trim level of Odyssey. If there is a significant height difference between you and your wife, this is an important benefit--especially for airbag safety.
rorr, you know that you can get (fake) wood trim for the Odyssey too, right? I saw a photo and it looks better than the puny little scraps of (fake) wood Toyota slaps on the Sienna.
Heywood, although the Sienna has the telescoping steering wheel, many people in this thread have mentioned that the Odyssey has the adjustable pedals. That's even more important than the telescoping steering wheel for keeping short drivers a safe distance from the air bag.
Adjustable pedals in the Ody is for Touring only, while the Sienna do have the telescoping steering wheel in all trim-models standard. (rorr was comparing to Ody EX-L, not Touring).
Have you checked out pricing between the two? (not hypothetical invoice or msrp, I mean really see what dealers in your area are asking for?)
The reason I bring it up is at least in my area, curiously, it was the Honda dealers who were willing to bargain a little for the Odyssey while the Toyota dealers clung to their overly high markups like grim death. Between that and some options packaging hocus pocus stunt they were pulling, the price differential went from a hypothetical $1k to well over $7k!
(options packaging stunt being they insisted that the particular options package we requested (AWD XLE #12) did not exist or at least was not being made available from Toyota, so in order to get the goodies we wanted, we were bumped to a Ltd then had the massive markup thrown on top. No thanks.)
Depending on the area of the country, there are Odysseys to be had at or near invoice, in every trim level. Check out the Odyssey: Prices paid, etc. forum; my dealing with Honda dealers (this time around) were only positive.
"the Odyssey handles more like an Accord than a Sienna."
That DOESN'T mean the Odyssey handling is 'carlike'. I could say a dirt bike more closely resembles an F16 than a little red wagon.....that doesn't make the dirt bike "F16-like". Yes, the Odyssey handles 'better' than the Sienna. The difference (IMO) is extremely incremental. For THIS to be the deciding factor between the two vans, they would have to be virtually IDENTICAL in all other respects. They aren't.
macakava - one of these days, I'm gonna figure out what the heck you're trying to say.....doesn't look like it will be today....have you been to the the Temple of VTEC lately? Ohhhhhhmmmmmmmmmm......
heywood - you are correct. I had noted the telescoping wheel difference when I initially made my list and forgot it in my post. That's another advantage for the Sienna.
salsa - I've seen the aftermarket wood kit you mentioned for the Ody (on H and A accessories site). Ugh. Yuck. Tasteful wood interiors (IMO) have just a few wood ACCENTS, not slathered over the entire dash from door panel to door panel. What is that, the special 'woody' edition Ody? And yes, I know the TOURING edition gets adjustable pedals. I'm not interested in a TOURING model.
thumper - good point. I know that compared feature for feature, the closest I can get to an Ody EX-L would be a Sienna XLE w/ package #6 (which gives me the side airbags, traction/stability control, leather, sunroof, and CD changer). The MSRP price difference is around $4k; I know the Toyota dealers in my area WILL deal. How much, I don't know yet. I haven't talked to a single Honda salesman yet so don't know about how the deals are generally going in my area.
Mostly what you do on this forum is answer posts like mine. I have read your other posts! I "rag" as you say about the ODDLY (named it right, as was my intention) as this is a forum to compare the Honda and the Toyota minivans.
Seems you are NOT objective, as I was. Remember I test drove both minivans extensively. I put a down payment on the Honda and bought the Toyota after a LONG decision! I do NOT sell Hondas or Toyotas! I buy them!
YOU may have NOT seen a broken seat on your beloved Honda. BUT I experienced this first hand. My bet is you will see some broken ones... and will be red faced!
I care about Laser cruise control and since I am the consumer, I choose. I bet if others used it they might care also as I think it is one of the best options on my new minivan.
Yes, I have a strong distaste of the PAX tires, especially the way Honda "hides" the facts. And when they decide to make them an option next year, it will be a ODDLY!
As far as the NAV system in the Honda. I am happy with the Toyota NAV system. Just a NAV system is NOT going to sell the ODDLY all by itself. Funny how you can "knock" laser cruise in the Sienna and praise the Honda NAV. OBjective? I think not.
This forum is for people to learn and discuss the differences. It served me well by NOT making a mistake for ME! YES, TO EACH HIS OWN! Remember I do NOT sell cars, I buy them. I will remind you that sells them, HONDA LOST MY SALE I HAD A DEPOSIT ON THE ODDLY!!! IF I SOLD cars I would care WHY I lost a sale???
NAV system in Honda is better, BUT NOT light years... I test technology for my livlihood for a Fortune 10 company. Voice recognition is available to the Sienna by adding a mic ($40). But still would NOT be as good as Honda ODDLY. But that does NOT sell a car alone. The Sienna NAV is also excellent.
The second row seats are a one touch fold, sorry I own the Toyota! IT is. The seats have a latch on side and with JUST ONE touch the seat folds and goes foward. Third row seats are built a bit better on Sienna also, and fold easily. NO plastic latches to break!
More than a few people are ticked off by PAX. Several cancelled order as I did. Many will be more upset when they try and find a spare (EVEN my Honda dealer in North NJ had no PAX in stock). Many will be upset when they PAY the cost of replacements. Nothing wrong with PAX as long as you know what you are buying and all the limitations involved. Which Honda makes difficult as they NO NOT INFORM consumers. NOTHING in brochure, web site, invoice, stickers. etc. Maybe after a class action law suite that might change. PAX is all about control, not technology. Other run flats can be exchanged when needed with standard tires, NOT with PAX!
Laser cruise is only a gimmick to you because the Honda does NOT have it. I use it and think it is nice and useful. More useful then a NAV system that might understand my voice (talk about gimmicks). I drove about 200 miles on a trip over the holiday break and almost NEVER had to toauch the pedals, amazing feature, NO matter what you say.
Interiors - Whatever you like. I liked Siennas.
Moonroof in Sienna is larger, even if you do NOT open it. I open mine on a nice day! I also open my rear windows as do my passengers on a nice day. At least I have a choice in the third row. I used to open the third row windows for outside air on my 2001 Chrysler T & C from front also, as even this van had that.
Seat heaters also afford choice on Sienna as they have settings. I use them. Power passengers seats are nice for the passenger! Maybe you are never the passengers or DO NOT care about your passengers as you do not care if their windows open! We are speaking on value here also. Power seats on both sides for same price is value and NOT useless.
I am a former Audio Engineer. Sound is important to me. I made my comment about the stereo being better in Sienna by using my ears. I listened to both extensively and found the Sienna's better. Better sub woofer in Sienna. I found the Touring stereo to be a bit under powered. Sienna also has a center speaker for surround sound! Sienna had a better full range sound also.
The 115 Volt outlet in rear is useful for vacuum and hooking up a refrig in rear on a long trip. It also has been great for using a laptop in van while kids play Playstation. Not earth shaking here, but useful. TWO outlets are better than ONE!
Sienna comes with sun shades in both rows, a roof rack with CROSS BARS, and it also has FLOOR MATS included in XLE Limited in all rows! I paid NOTHING extra for these as they came standard. NOT an EXTRA $290 as you seem to indicate in your post. I can ADD a ($40) mic to use NAV voice activation if I wanted to play your nickel and dime game. NO WASH HERE, INCLUDED!!! Don't you think you should get CROSSBARS on a 40K vechile? I do! By the way the Sienna XLE Limited was exactly the same price to the dollar as the Honda ODDLY. The option for the Honda third row sun shades on top of costing extra, does NOT integrate into the vechile as well as the Sienna Standard one goes INTO the side.
Seems whatever you did NOT get or CAN NOT get on your Honda is useless. Hardly objective... I had a down payment on Honda, I BOUGHT a Sienna. I did the research for ME. I am happy with decision. It was an objective decision based on what was best for me.
To each his own. But not helpful to call every feature that you can not get, or do not have useless! Sounds like you are just upset that you did not have these features. The only feature you were happy to "tout" was the NAV in the Honda... REALLY! LOL! Sorry we disagree.
perhaps you're right. i guess everyone just needs to drive vehicles they are considering back to back if practical and assess that for themselves.
to me the ODY is more "car-like". but you are correct, it's a rather non-specific and subjective term and it's ultimately semantics anyway.
while you might know the driver / performance terms related to handling, i cetainly don't and wouldn't appreciate them if i saw them laid out side by side. most of that stuff in car-magazines just goes over my head. i tend to make my assessment by the feeling i have when i drive the car under different scenarios (accelerating from a stop, slowing down, changing lanes, merging to highway traffic, driving a winding country road, pulling a U-turn or 3-pointer, using one hand to turn the wheel, or a few fingers to make minor steering corrections at different speeds, etc).
2nd-hand anecdote: might we agree that the handling characteristics of any vehicle can change (quite noticeably) by merely changing the tires on the vehicle (stiffer vs. softer sidewall) etc?
i work with a Sienna owner who told me he was very tired of going through tires. i do believe he had alignment checks a number of times.
anyway - he changed the tires on his '02, indicating to me the new ones were wider. i don't know the specifics of *why* he decided to go with a wider tire, nor by how much wider they are than his prior set (i could find out), but both he and his wife immediately appreciated the difference in the handling of the vehicle (i presume cornering).
1st-hand anecdote: i don't have a hitch, nor do i pull a trailer. i was however quite impressed on a few occasions with the ODY's handling after i pulled the 2nd row seats, dropped the 3rd row, and completely filled the space behind the front seats with numerous boxes filled with books, paper files and odd furniture.
wouldn't it be a hoot to show up at a dealership and tell them you want to take their vehicle on a demo ride, but you want to fill it up with people, or "junk" first.
Semantics - quite right. But then I love argueing semantics, even though it is usually completely pointless (I'm funny that way).
The way you make your assessment is, IMO, the BEST way to do it: ignore what the magazines say and just DRIVE the vehicles in question. And testing as many different aspects as possible (acceleration, braking, steering response and feel, etc.) is optimal. I just shake my head at those who spend 5 minutes 'road testing' the car. We all have different criteria for what makes a car 'right' and you won't get that out of a magazine review.
Absolutely, vehicle handling characteristics DEFINITELY change with tire changes. But though they will definitely change, each person will have their own opinion about whether or not the change was an improvement or not.
Just having an alignment check done won't necessarily cure excessive wear. Factory alignments may have been set for other criteria (on-center steering feel, steering response, etc.) which don't necessarily give the owner the best tire wear. That being said, I've heard several stories about excessive tire wear on some Toyota models and years but I don't know if it is endemic of all Toyotas or not.
And yes, very generally speaking, a wider tire will give you 'better' handling. However, wider tires are, again generally speaking, more prone to following road imperfections (trammeling) which may give one the impression the car is constantly 'hunting' back and forth.
Adding a lot of weight will certainly make the vehicle feel more 'planted' and less susceptible to road imperfections or wind. I don't think I would try tackling a winding mountain road with a lot of gusto in a weighed down Ody however.
Hmmmmm, I've got some drywall I need to pick up this weekend. I'll see if I can test-drive a new Ody over to the local Home Depot and load'er up....8^)
First, adjustable pedals do not address the 'arm reach' problem. So what if a short driver can move the pedals closer to the seat? If the steering wheel is stationary, a very short driver may have his/her arms totally outstretched just to reach it.
Also, only Odyssey Touring offers these adjustable pedals. Lesser trim levels have NEITHER adjustable pedals OR telescoping wheel. Sienna offers telescoping wheel on all trim levels.
It's a huge omission, IMO, that Honda failed to include an telescoping wheel on the Odyssey--especially the high-dollar 'Touring.'
Of course it would be best if both Ody and Sienna offered telescoping wheel AND adjustable pedals.
Everyone's situation is different. Based on pricing offered by the dealers, different things become more or less important. For the price differential between what I was offered for an Odyssey and a Sienna, I could've gone to a custom interior shop and have stuff like the converter and the 3rd row sunshades put nicely into the car.
Floor mats? Our non-Touring came with floor mats. Free. In all rows. I think they're talking about the rubber all-weather mats. Which Weathertechs are better for anyway.
Getting cross bars or better speakers is not a huge deal for a car in the aftermarket. Getting a better navigation system? Revamping the RES for a larger screen and moving the player to the dash? Maybe you need to talk to chiaw about how much time and money he's spending to customize his NAV system the way he wants. (Yes, I understand it is more capable than the Honda system is now, but you are hardly running a "stock" system anymore, No?)
Heywood, you're talking about comfort, that's subjective. The arm reach problem might be significant for you, making the telescopic steering wheel more important to you for your comfort. But, if you can't reach the steering wheel, why don't you just move your seat closer?
I'm talking about safety. Air bags are designed to have a certain distance from the passenger. When short drivers have to slide their seat too close to the steering wheel, they can get seriously injured in an accident. That's the reason for the adjustable pedals. My wife is short, but she didn't have any problems reaching the steering wheel in the Nissan Quest. She usually has the opposite problem of having to sit too close to the steering wheel in order to reach the pedals.
With the Sienna, the driver adjusts the seat so the pedal reach is comfortable. They then adjust the telescoping wheel so it is comfortable.
With the Odyssey, the driver adjusts the seat so the steering wheel is comforable, and then adjusts the pedals.
Ultimately, both Ody and Sienna drivers WILL find a position in which both the steering wheel and pedals are comfortable. Both approaches let the driver adjust the ratio between steering wheel reach and pedal reach. I fail to see what is really all that different between the two approaches to driver comfort. The ONLY way that one system would be inherently better would be if one system allowed for a wider range of adjustment.
However, the cynic in me realizes that since the Sienna has a telescopic steering wheel standard while the Ody has the adjustable pedals only in the Touring model, that Honda fans will say ANYTHING to justify why adjustable pedals are preferable to telescopic steering wheels.
My Family is in a similar predicament although I have 2 kids and a Mother-in-Law. I recently purchased a 2005 Sienna LE-8 with the BX(option 8) pkg. I put my newborn infant in the BF infant seat in the 2nd row middle seat. By the way have you seen the write up on this 2nd row middle seat?Toyota is the only one with this feature on this seat which is the ability to be moved forward 18 inches or 12 inches past the adjacent 2nd row outboard seats! Coupled with the size of this seat which can handle a Britax Roundabout plus size (with safety attachments), and you have trumped the competition period. My wife can now access the newborn(2nd row,middle seat) if she chooses to ride shotgun(In the front). This is something the competition cannot match. I have toyed with the configuration(3-FF Baby Seats in the 2nd row) you mentioned and it even works with the 2nd row middle seat not fully indexed forward(18 inches), but at 6 inches staggered forward from the adjacent seats. Of course in this config, you will not be able to access the third row seating. In this config, I fold the 3rd row into the floor and increase my Cargo space. My present config is 2nd row(driver) and 2nd row middle have Car Seats and the 2nd Row Passenger side has my Mother-in-Law or wife. This config, gives access to the third row via the one touch folding 2nd row passenger seat and powered sliding door. This is the one that works best for me. I read somewhere else where other poster bought the 2005 Sienna LE-8(BX-Pkg 8)and has it configured that way(all car seats-2nd row). He claims that the Sienna LE-8 gives him unlimited seating and cargo configuration flexibilty. Like him, I agree that as compared to the 05 ODY's plus one seating, the Sienna's 8th seat in the LE Trimline blows it away! As for the amenities lacking in Toyota's Sienna Lower trim lines, I sacraficed that for that 8th seat. I wish they had this 8th seat in the XLE/XLE Limited trim lines but maybe in the future. As for NAV, HIDs, Leather etc, I found substitutes for some of them.
Anyway, I am very happy with the Sienna, although I did research on the 2005 Ody and their plus one seat and ultimately decided the Sienna far superior for my requirements.
Here are the measured facts(for the largest piece of plywood) from June 2004 C & D minivan comparo.
Ody: 99" X 48.5"
Quest: 96" X 48.5"
Sienna: 97" X 47.5"
A 8' X 4'(96" X 32") would fit with relative ease in the Ody; a tight fit in the Quest; and a compromised tighter fit in the Sienna if you tilt the plywood up on one side and scrape the interior sides in the process.
Mercy, what a sweet ride. So quiet and roomy. I'm 6'6 and I found that the Sienna has noticeably more head and leg room than the Oddy.
Also, to my ears, it is somewhat quieter.
I was ready to take a Limited AWD until I read about the tires and there being no room for a conventional spare if I switched. Also it had the NAV system which does not make as much sense to me as paying attention and a little pre trip planning.
Having picked the Sienna for me, I believe that it wonderful that we have two choices that are of this caliber to pick from.
Heated seats? In Phoenix. Will still be brand new when I trade.
The adapter for Apple Computer Inc.'s iPod is compatible with more than 3 million Pioneer car stereos sold during the past several years, the company said. The device allows users play songs from an iPod player through the car stereo and to scroll through playlists using the stereo's front panel controls. The adapter will also charge the player's internal battery. Pioneer said the adapter will be available in March and sell for about $140. Currently available iPod FM transmitters, which are not controlled through the stereo, range in price from $20 to $80.
For those of your considering a Sienna Limited: I too found the Laser guided cruise control one of the best features on the Sienna Limited, but had no idea just how nice it was until I began driving the vehicle. it takes cruise control to a new level of usefulness. It can be used in most highway traffic conditions. Just set the desired speed, the desired distance between you and a car in front of you (There are 3 distance options) and you can really relax. You don't have to hit the gas or brake pedal. All you need do is steer the vehicle. If you come upon a slow moving vehicle the car brakes itself, keeping the set distance between you and that vehicle. You pass when you have a chance and the car accelerates to the set speed. You can literally drive for hours without touching the gas or brakes. It makes both short and long trips easier and more relaxing.
However, there are a couple exceptions: It will not work when you have your windshield wipers on past intermittent. Also, since it depends on the reflection between you and the tale lights of the car up front, it ocassionally won't work if that cars tale lights are very dirty. Never the less, it's a great feature.
i wonder, if it could actually steer the car based on the vehicle in front of you and lane markers, would you let it do that too?
Sure! I remember doing a book report for school in ~1963 from a Popular Mechanics article - we were all going to be driving in grassy swales with little steering or braking needed by 1980.
I'm still waiting, but I'd go for that (and a laser cruise would be nice too).
Let's don't get carried away. All the laser CC does it allow you to avoid the annoyance of having to continually turn the CC on and off to adjust to the speed of other cars. It doesn't "drive the car for you." It's a nice feature, and apparently interferes with police laser guns as an added bonus.
Actually, from what I've been reading, the Laser Cruise is rather tempermental, not only to bad weather conditions (as mentioned above) but also when rounding a turn it could misfire between the car in front and other cars and/or the freeway guardrail, causing the system to get confused about how far exactly the car ahead is.
Given that some of us live in areas where the "wipers are on" quite a lot... not such an important feature to have.
1.) the driver ahead w/o ABS hits the brake hard in an emergency situation. In some situations such as dry roads, you can actually stop faster with skid marks due to no ABS
That laser cruise could cause a driver to pay even less attention then they do already. Since I rarely use my cruise in the first place, it would be of no value to me.
I would much rather be paying attention than becoming dependant on a cruise control system that may or not work like it's designed to at all times.
It's certainly not perfect. It does ok on curves, but steep hills cause it to become "nearsighted." It works best on relatively flat roads without lots of traffic. I could live without it, but it is a nice feature to have.
I'd say it has about the same degree of necessity as voice control for the NAV that requires you to repeat things and remember "magic" words.
Actually, I'm against anything that takes a driver out of the business of driving. I don't use my cell phone when I drive and I go nuts when I'm alongside of someone engaged in an animated conversation while driving 60 MPH in traffic.
And, I don't drink hot coffee while driving.
It just seems that a driver using laser cruise could easily get lulled into inattention.
Not having to pay close attention to your speed (i.e., no worrying about spacing out and unintentionally speeding) frees you up to concentrate on traffic conditions and the cell yakking donut eating driver in the next lane.
I put my cruise on 35 in town all the time so I don't have to worry about a speed trap.
I have to say the way our family drives, we don't use cruise control. But this is in the NYC metro area, so the traffic we're in is generally more congested and the length of time behind the wheel is usually no more than an hour or so.
Not sure why we chose the Odyssey over the Sienna - we generally had good experiences with Toyotas and started out looking at the Sienna (as far back as August). I guess because the reviews were better for the 2005 Odyssey, and the feel behind the wheel was also better.
I'm in your camp, isellhondas. I have had cruise control on my vehicles for five years now and I almost never use it. I like to control the car and be aware of everything around me. Putting cruise on and then off and then on while I drive and stop distracts me. I only use it on long hauls on interstates, and even then only when traffic is moderate to light. The last couple of cars we bought came with cruise as part of a package, but I ignore it.
Sound like some of you have the feature and don't find it all that useful.
Sounds like others don't have the feature but there perception is negative. My response to them: When automatic transmission was first introduced it was looked upon in the same negative light by many who had not yet tried it. But once it became widely available and the price came down people tried it and they loved it. Yes, it takes away that portion of control from the driver. But it made the driving experience more relaxing and most people welcomed that in a non sports car vehicle.
Concerning the safety aspect of laser cruise control. My experience has been that it makes the drive safer. Long trips in particular are far less strenuous when one is not tending the gas and brake constantly. To me less strenuous results in less fatigue and a safer trip.
what you are saying. and yet (i hope i remember this correctly) human factors and complex system study suggests a bell-curve vigilance relationship to describe human performance...
essentially i believe it goes something like this: that the amount of tasking or being busy actually makes a human perform better and better, but only up to a point, at which adding more to do makes the human a poorer performer and they just get poorer as tasking continues to increase.
fundamentally, humans are poor passive monitors. or said another way: we need something to do.
so remaining actively engaged in the process of driving, should at least on a theoretical basis, always place you in a better position to react to the unexpected.
if you've got so much going on that using this automation actually lessens an overly burdensome load level (?), then maybe you have too much going on in the car (talking on cell, tossing stuff back to the kids, looking for your wallet, checking your face in the mirror, munching on that big mac and balancing the fries and the drink against the wheel, etc).
That's not what I am saying. Operating the gas and brake peddle in itself does not lead to poor performance as a result of over tasking an individual. What I'm saying is that they both require energy which along with steering, paying attention to the road and socializing with the family takes a toll on ones energy reserve. The less energy exerted the more refreshed and alert the driver is on long drives. For me that makes the drive more relaxing, enjoyable and safe.
Your last point about to much to do is not an issue for me. I pay attention to my driving. Unfortunately, too many people do the things you point out while driving and the result is a more dangerous drive for all of us. Instead of Honda Odyssey vs. Toyota Sienna, a more productive town hall meeting might be: "Paying attention while driving versus doing other things that make the roads less safe for everyone."
Comments
greg_y - incorrect. I think you are confusing option package #47 (bartender special with the 60/40 split folding minibar) for package #33b. With this package, you not only get the additional cupholders, but a small port-a-john in lieu of the smaller portion of the split rear bench.
cargenie05 - yes, Honda and Toyota ARE owned by the same cabal. This cabal also oversees the Ford Company and misc. divisions (Volvo, Mazda, Jaguar), General Motors, and essentially every other vehicle motor company known to man. Through massive price fixing and draconian labor practices, the actual costs to produce the typical Odyssey is only $29.13. The rest is profit.
(j/k - Toyota and Honda are COMPLETELY different companies. About the only way they could be 'owned' by the same people would be if Joe Blow investor bought publically traded stock in both companies)
Now the next question? How about rear spoilers? I see so many Siennas with those rear spoilers and I cannot for the life of me understand why they are so popular. Aside from very questionable aesthetic value (again, I will acknowledge the role of subjective taste), I'm puzzled. Maybe there are a few drivers out there who need stability at speeds of 90+ in the shopping malls?
Your shot glasses are too small to fit securely in the cup holders? I guess my shot glasses are bigger than yours. <g>
Honda apparently thinks so since they are standard on the Pilot and Odyssey.
Okay - back on topic...
My wife and I still can't decide between an Ody EX-L and a Sienna XLE. They each have unique features that we want; regardless of which one we chose, I'm afraid there's gonna be something (several things?) that we'll wish we could have had but wasn't offered. I sat down last night and made (what I think is) a comprehensive list of the things which we desire and were different between the two. Perhaps someone here will find this useful....or not:
Ody - Lazy susan, +1 seat, all safety features standard vs. packages only on Sienna, curtain airbags include rollover sensor, more legroom in 2nd and 3rd rows, tray table in 1st row AND ability to place console in 2nd row, (slightly) easier to fold 3rd row, manual easy closing rear hatch, lighted steering wheel controls and window switches, standard CD changer and moonroof, standard floormats and cargo net, larger conversation mirror, and easier(?) to access donut spare
Sienna - (fake) wood trim, power passenger seat, operating 3rd row windows w/ sunshades, power door switches accesible to both driver and passenger, additional power door switches in b-pillar, tri-zone automatic climate control, power rear hatch (but overly sensitive?), tumble-forward 2nd row seats make easier access to 3rd row, right hand 2nd row captains chair has integrated seatbelt so it moves with seat location, more hip/shoulder room, more cargo space behind 2nd and 3rd row, better JBL 10 speaker stereo, trip computer, low tire pressure monitoring system, armrest storage, can put console in either 1st or 2nd row, rear seat audio w/ wireless headphones, and includes towing package.
I did this list off the top of my head, but these are the OBJECTIVE differences I remember. Thinking completely subjectively, IMO the Sienna had a quieter, smoother ride and seemed to have a higher grade of interior materials (both plastics and leather). And while the Ody seemed 'noisier', it wasn't noisy per se. The Ody does handle 'better'. I've heard it called 'carlike'. Uh, no.....at least not 'carlike' compared to what I'VE driven in the past. I certainly would NOT confuse it's handling with an Accord.
I suppose that if the Sienna's handling were compared to a pig on ice, the Odyssey might be compared to an athletic, coordinated, pig on ice.
8^)
that's a no-brainer, right?
You may be technically correct since I own 500 shares each of Toyota and Honda. So I do own Toyota and Honda to the tune of less than 0.001%!
Neil
The reason I bring it up is at least in my area, curiously, it was the Honda dealers who were willing to bargain a little for the Odyssey while the Toyota dealers clung to their overly high markups like grim death. Between that and some options packaging hocus pocus stunt they were pulling, the price differential went from a hypothetical $1k to well over $7k!
(options packaging stunt being they insisted that the particular options package we requested (AWD XLE #12) did not exist or at least was not being made available from Toyota, so in order to get the goodies we wanted, we were bumped to a Ltd then had the massive markup thrown on top. No thanks.)
--> Andy
"the Odyssey handles more like an Accord than a Sienna."
That DOESN'T mean the Odyssey handling is 'carlike'. I could say a dirt bike more closely resembles an F16 than a little red wagon.....that doesn't make the dirt bike "F16-like". Yes, the Odyssey handles 'better' than the Sienna. The difference (IMO) is extremely incremental. For THIS to be the deciding factor between the two vans, they would have to be virtually IDENTICAL in all other respects. They aren't.
macakava - one of these days, I'm gonna figure out what the heck you're trying to say.....doesn't look like it will be today....have you been to the the Temple of VTEC lately? Ohhhhhhmmmmmmmmmm......
heywood - you are correct. I had noted the telescoping wheel difference when I initially made my list and forgot it in my post. That's another advantage for the Sienna.
salsa - I've seen the aftermarket wood kit you mentioned for the Ody (on H and A accessories site). Ugh. Yuck. Tasteful wood interiors (IMO) have just a few wood ACCENTS, not slathered over the entire dash from door panel to door panel. What is that, the special 'woody' edition Ody? And yes, I know the TOURING edition gets adjustable pedals. I'm not interested in a TOURING model.
thumper - good point. I know that compared feature for feature, the closest I can get to an Ody EX-L would be a Sienna XLE w/ package #6 (which gives me the side airbags, traction/stability control, leather, sunroof, and CD changer). The MSRP price difference is around $4k; I know the Toyota dealers in my area WILL deal. How much, I don't know yet. I haven't talked to a single Honda salesman yet so don't know about how the deals are generally going in my area.
Mostly what you do on this forum is answer posts like mine. I have read your other posts! I "rag" as you say about the ODDLY (named it right, as was my intention) as this is a forum to compare the Honda and the Toyota minivans.
Seems you are NOT objective, as I was. Remember I test drove both minivans extensively. I put a down payment on the Honda and bought the Toyota after a LONG decision! I do NOT sell Hondas or Toyotas! I buy them!
YOU may have NOT seen a broken seat on your beloved Honda. BUT I experienced this first hand. My bet is you will see some broken ones... and will be red faced!
I care about Laser cruise control and since I am the consumer, I choose. I bet if others used it they might care also as I think it is one of the best options on my new minivan.
Yes, I have a strong distaste of the PAX tires, especially the way Honda "hides" the facts. And when they decide to make them an option next year, it will be a ODDLY!
As far as the NAV system in the Honda. I am happy with the Toyota NAV system. Just a NAV system is NOT going to sell the ODDLY all by itself. Funny how you can "knock" laser cruise in the Sienna and praise the Honda NAV. OBjective? I think not.
This forum is for people to learn and discuss the differences. It served me well by NOT making a mistake for ME! YES, TO EACH HIS OWN! Remember I do NOT sell cars, I buy them. I will remind you that sells them, HONDA LOST MY SALE I HAD A DEPOSIT ON THE ODDLY!!! IF I SOLD cars I would care WHY I lost a sale???
Stephen A
The second row seats are a one touch fold, sorry I own the Toyota! IT is. The seats have a latch on side and with JUST ONE touch the seat folds and goes foward. Third row seats are built a bit better on Sienna also, and fold easily. NO plastic latches to break!
More than a few people are ticked off by PAX. Several cancelled order as I did. Many will be more upset when they try and find a spare (EVEN my Honda dealer in North NJ had no PAX in stock). Many will be upset when they PAY the cost of replacements. Nothing wrong with PAX as long as you know what you are buying and all the limitations involved. Which Honda makes difficult as they NO NOT INFORM consumers. NOTHING in brochure, web site, invoice, stickers. etc. Maybe after a class action law suite that might change. PAX is all about control, not technology. Other run flats can be exchanged when needed with standard tires, NOT with PAX!
Laser cruise is only a gimmick to you because the Honda does NOT have it. I use it and think it is nice and useful. More useful then a NAV system that might understand my voice (talk about gimmicks). I drove about 200 miles on a trip over the holiday break and almost NEVER had to toauch the pedals, amazing feature, NO matter what you say.
Interiors - Whatever you like. I liked Siennas.
Moonroof in Sienna is larger, even if you do NOT open it. I open mine on a nice day! I also open my rear windows as do my passengers on a nice day. At least I have a choice in the third row. I used to open the third row windows for outside air on my 2001 Chrysler T & C from front also, as even this van had that.
Seat heaters also afford choice on Sienna as they have settings. I use them. Power passengers seats are nice for the passenger! Maybe you are never the passengers or DO NOT care about your passengers as you do not care if their windows open! We are speaking on value here also. Power seats on both sides for same price is value and NOT useless.
I am a former Audio Engineer. Sound is important to me. I made my comment about the stereo being better in Sienna by using my ears. I listened to both extensively and found the Sienna's better. Better sub woofer in Sienna. I found the Touring stereo to be a bit under powered. Sienna also has a center speaker for surround sound! Sienna had a better full range sound also.
The 115 Volt outlet in rear is useful for vacuum and hooking up a refrig in rear on a long trip. It also has been great for using a laptop in van while kids play Playstation. Not earth shaking here, but useful. TWO outlets are better than ONE!
Sienna comes with sun shades in both rows, a roof rack with CROSS BARS, and it also has FLOOR MATS included in XLE Limited in all rows! I paid NOTHING extra for these as they came standard. NOT an EXTRA $290 as you seem to indicate in your post. I can ADD a ($40) mic to use NAV voice activation if I wanted to play your nickel and dime game. NO WASH HERE, INCLUDED!!! Don't you think you should get CROSSBARS on a 40K vechile? I do! By the way the Sienna XLE Limited was exactly the same price to the dollar as the Honda ODDLY. The option for the Honda third row sun shades on top of costing extra, does NOT integrate into the vechile as well as the Sienna Standard one goes INTO the side.
Seems whatever you did NOT get or CAN NOT get on your Honda is useless. Hardly objective... I had a down payment on Honda, I BOUGHT a Sienna. I did the research for ME. I am happy with decision. It was an objective decision based on what was best for me.
To each his own. But not helpful to call every feature that you can not get, or do not have useless! Sounds like you are just upset that you did not have these features. The only feature you were happy to "tout" was the NAV in the Honda... REALLY! LOL! Sorry we disagree.
Stephen A
to me the ODY is more "car-like". but you are correct, it's a rather non-specific and subjective term and it's ultimately semantics anyway.
while you might know the driver / performance terms related to handling, i cetainly don't and wouldn't appreciate them if i saw them laid out side by side. most of that stuff in car-magazines just goes over my head. i tend to make my assessment by the feeling i have when i drive the car under different scenarios (accelerating from a stop, slowing down, changing lanes, merging to highway traffic, driving a winding country road, pulling a U-turn or 3-pointer, using one hand to turn the wheel, or a few fingers to make minor steering corrections at different speeds, etc).
2nd-hand anecdote: might we agree that the handling characteristics of any vehicle can change (quite noticeably) by merely changing the tires on the vehicle (stiffer vs. softer sidewall) etc?
i work with a Sienna owner who told me he was very tired of going through tires. i do believe he had alignment checks a number of times.
anyway - he changed the tires on his '02, indicating to me the new ones were wider. i don't know the specifics of *why* he decided to go with a wider tire, nor by how much wider they are than his prior set (i could find out), but both he and his wife immediately appreciated the difference in the handling of the vehicle (i presume cornering).
1st-hand anecdote: i don't have a hitch, nor do i pull a trailer. i was however quite impressed on a few occasions with the ODY's handling after i pulled the 2nd row seats, dropped the 3rd row, and completely filled the space behind the front seats with numerous boxes filled with books, paper files and odd furniture.
wouldn't it be a hoot to show up at a dealership and tell them you want to take their vehicle on a demo ride, but you want to fill it up with people, or "junk" first.
The way you make your assessment is, IMO, the BEST way to do it: ignore what the magazines say and just DRIVE the vehicles in question. And testing as many different aspects as possible (acceleration, braking, steering response and feel, etc.) is optimal. I just shake my head at those who spend 5 minutes 'road testing' the car. We all have different criteria for what makes a car 'right' and you won't get that out of a magazine review.
Absolutely, vehicle handling characteristics DEFINITELY change with tire changes. But though they will definitely change, each person will have their own opinion about whether or not the change was an improvement or not.
Just having an alignment check done won't necessarily cure excessive wear. Factory alignments may have been set for other criteria (on-center steering feel, steering response, etc.) which don't necessarily give the owner the best tire wear. That being said, I've heard several stories about excessive tire wear on some Toyota models and years but I don't know if it is endemic of all Toyotas or not.
And yes, very generally speaking, a wider tire will give you 'better' handling. However, wider tires are, again generally speaking, more prone to following road imperfections (trammeling) which may give one the impression the car is constantly 'hunting' back and forth.
Adding a lot of weight will certainly make the vehicle feel more 'planted' and less susceptible to road imperfections or wind. I don't think I would try tackling a winding mountain road with a lot of gusto in a weighed down Ody however.
Hmmmmm, I've got some drywall I need to pick up this weekend. I'll see if I can test-drive a new Ody over to the local Home Depot and load'er up....8^)
How easy this is, I've leave up to the reader....
And since the Sienna has more 3rd row hip/shoulder room, I'll make the leap of faith to say it has a wider load floor.
First, adjustable pedals do not address the 'arm reach' problem. So what if a short driver can move the pedals closer to the seat? If the steering wheel is stationary, a very short driver may have his/her arms totally outstretched just to reach it.
Also, only Odyssey Touring offers these adjustable pedals. Lesser trim levels have NEITHER adjustable pedals OR telescoping wheel. Sienna offers telescoping wheel on all trim levels.
It's a huge omission, IMO, that Honda failed to include an telescoping wheel on the Odyssey--especially the high-dollar 'Touring.'
Of course it would be best if both Ody and Sienna offered telescoping wheel AND adjustable pedals.
Pedals or wheel. Either needs to be adjustable. Not necessarily both.
And yes, it sucks that only the Touring has any.
--> Andy
Floor mats? Our non-Touring came with floor mats. Free. In all rows. I think they're talking about the rubber all-weather mats. Which Weathertechs are better for anyway.
Getting cross bars or better speakers is not a huge deal for a car in the aftermarket. Getting a better navigation system? Revamping the RES for a larger screen and moving the player to the dash? Maybe you need to talk to chiaw about how much time and money he's spending to customize his NAV system the way he wants. (Yes, I understand it is more capable than the Honda system is now, but you are hardly running a "stock" system anymore, No?)
--> Andy
I'm talking about safety. Air bags are designed to have a certain distance from the passenger. When short drivers have to slide their seat too close to the steering wheel, they can get seriously injured in an accident. That's the reason for the adjustable pedals. My wife is short, but she didn't have any problems reaching the steering wheel in the Nissan Quest. She usually has the opposite problem of having to sit too close to the steering wheel in order to reach the pedals.
With the Odyssey, the driver adjusts the seat so the steering wheel is comforable, and then adjusts the pedals.
Ultimately, both Ody and Sienna drivers WILL find a position in which both the steering wheel and pedals are comfortable. Both approaches let the driver adjust the ratio between steering wheel reach and pedal reach. I fail to see what is really all that different between the two approaches to driver comfort. The ONLY way that one system would be inherently better would be if one system allowed for a wider range of adjustment.
However, the cynic in me realizes that since the Sienna has a telescopic steering wheel standard while the Ody has the adjustable pedals only in the Touring model, that Honda fans will say ANYTHING to justify why adjustable pedals are preferable to telescopic steering wheels.
Anyway, I am very happy with the Sienna, although I did research on the 2005 Ody and their plus one seat and ultimately decided the Sienna far superior for my requirements.
Ody: 99" X 48.5"
Quest: 96" X 48.5"
Sienna: 97" X 47.5"
A 8' X 4'(96" X 32") would fit with relative ease in the Ody; a tight fit in the Quest; and a compromised tighter fit in the Sienna if you tilt the plywood up on one side and scrape the interior sides in the process.
Perhaps adjustable pedals are a better alternative for short drivers, and telescoping wheels for taller ones.
I am reasonably tall (6'1"), but my legs are long. As soon as I get into any vehicle, I immediately move the seat all the way back.
A (manually) telescoping wheel seems like the simpler, cheaper solution. Honda should offer it on the Odyssey.
Mercy, what a sweet ride. So quiet and roomy. I'm 6'6 and I found that the Sienna has noticeably more head and leg room than the Oddy.
Also, to my ears, it is somewhat quieter.
I was ready to take a Limited AWD until I read about the tires and there being no room for a conventional spare if I switched. Also it had the NAV system which does not make as much sense to me as paying attention and a little pre trip planning.
Having picked the Sienna for me, I believe that it wonderful that we have two choices that are of this caliber to pick from.
Heated seats? In Phoenix. Will still be brand new when I trade.
The adapter for Apple Computer Inc.'s iPod is compatible with more than 3 million Pioneer car stereos sold during the past several years, the company said. The device allows users play songs from an iPod player through the car stereo and to scroll through playlists using the stereo's front panel controls. The adapter will also charge the player's internal battery. Pioneer said the adapter will be available in March and sell for about $140. Currently available iPod FM transmitters, which are not controlled through the stereo, range in price from $20 to $80.
Alpine has a similar item.
However, there are a couple exceptions: It will not work when you have your windshield wipers on past intermittent. Also, since it depends on the reflection between you and the tale lights of the car up front, it ocassionally won't work if that cars tale lights are very dirty. Never the less, it's a great feature.
You don't have to hit the gas or brake pedal. All you need do is steer the vehicle.
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and
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You can literally drive for hours without touching the gas or brakes.
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forgive me, but i (and i hope many other people) will have a completely opposite opinion about the utility and safety of this feature of the Sienna.
from my perspective, you are actually leaving it up to the driver in front of you and technology to manage the control of your vehicle.
i wonder, if it could actually steer the car based on the vehicle in front of you and lane markers, would you let it do that too?
scarey.
Sure! I remember doing a book report for school in ~1963 from a Popular Mechanics article - we were all going to be driving in grassy swales with little steering or braking needed by 1980.
I'm still waiting, but I'd go for that (and a laser cruise would be nice too).
Steve, Host
Given that some of us live in areas where the "wipers are on" quite a lot... not such an important feature to have.
--> Andy
if you're on the open road, then the LC isn't doing much above conventional CC is it?
so while i agree with thumper in his scenario...not a very useful feature in heavy traffic or rainy conditions...
i stand behind my opinion about safety, since i'm against automation taking people out of the process of actively driving.
respectfully, i don' think i'm getting carried away...but i admit, my opinion is on one end of the spectrum.
1.) the driver ahead w/o ABS hits the brake hard in an emergency situation. In some situations such as dry roads, you can actually stop faster with skid marks due to no ABS
2.) The Sienna driver falls asleep
I would much rather be paying attention than becoming dependant on a cruise control system that may or not work like it's designed to at all times.
I'd say it has about the same degree of necessity as voice control for the NAV that requires you to repeat things and remember "magic" words.
I expected that.
Actually, I'm against anything that takes a driver out of the business of driving. I don't use my cell phone when I drive and I go nuts when I'm alongside of someone engaged in an animated conversation while driving 60 MPH in traffic.
And, I don't drink hot coffee while driving.
It just seems that a driver using laser cruise could easily get lulled into inattention.
I dont' care what brand of car it's on!
I put my cruise on 35 in town all the time so I don't have to worry about a speed trap.
Steve, Host
Not sure why we chose the Odyssey over the Sienna - we generally had good experiences with Toyotas and started out looking at the Sienna (as far back as August). I guess because the reviews were better for the 2005 Odyssey, and the feel behind the wheel was also better.
To each his own. For me it's been great.
Sound like some of you have the feature and don't find it all that useful.
Sounds like others don't have the feature but there perception is negative. My response to them: When automatic transmission was first introduced it was looked upon in the same negative light by many who had not yet tried it. But once it became widely available and the price came down people tried it and they loved it. Yes, it takes away that portion of control from the driver. But it made the driving experience more relaxing and most people welcomed that in a non sports car vehicle.
Concerning the safety aspect of laser cruise control. My experience has been that it makes the drive safer. Long trips in particular are far less strenuous when one is not tending the gas and brake constantly. To me less strenuous results in less fatigue and a safer trip.
But, then I'm not a big cruise control person anyway.
essentially i believe it goes something like this: that the amount of tasking or being busy actually makes a human perform better and better, but only up to a point, at which adding more to do makes the human a poorer performer and they just get poorer as tasking continues to increase.
fundamentally, humans are poor passive monitors. or said another way: we need something to do.
so remaining actively engaged in the process of driving, should at least on a theoretical basis, always place you in a better position to react to the unexpected.
if you've got so much going on that using this automation actually lessens an overly burdensome load level (?), then maybe you have too much going on in the car (talking on cell, tossing stuff back to the kids, looking for your wallet, checking your face in the mirror, munching on that big mac and balancing the fries and the drink against the wheel, etc).
regards.
Your last point about to much to do is not an issue for me. I pay attention to my driving. Unfortunately, too many people do the things you point out while driving and the result is a more dangerous drive for all of us. Instead of Honda Odyssey vs. Toyota Sienna, a more productive town hall meeting might be: "Paying attention while driving versus doing other things that make the roads less safe for everyone."