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Comments
Chrysler (STAFF) - Sales people were generally pleasant and not pushy, but were unlear about what specific packages included what and how the cost differed. Chrysler dealers in general seemed willing to negotiate price.
PLUSES - Lots of options were available and it was generally easy to tailor a car to what you desired. Stow-N-Go is good if you absolutely must be able to easily convert your van to a sheetrock hauler or want a covered pickup. It is generally easier than anywhere else to get the exact van that you want (delivered in a timely manner). Relatively easy to option in DVD NAV. That's about all I can come up with.
MINUSES - The stow-n-go seats suck. Everyone I saw sit in them said the comfort tradeoff for being able to put them into the floor was not worth it. Side curtain airbags are not standard on all models (this is stupid, minivan buyers want safety above all). Just about every van in my area had the side curtains optioned in, so obviously it's at least a high priority here. The dash layout did not impress my in-laws, and they are not generally picky. Nothing really made this van stand out...it did everything reasonably well but in general it was underwhelming.
Toyota (STAFF) - Both our experiences in Toyota dealerships left something to be desired. Basically, Toyota turned out to be what I thought Honda would be like. Our sales reps were confusing and knew less than I did about their cars. In fact they both mentioned that I should come sell cars for them, not something I wanted to hear. Instead of having their own desks, there were random tables in the showroom. Neither dealer wanted to even give us a price and one actually told us to go to see the Honda Odyssey and come back. We did the first but never came back. Considering the Toyota is an '04 design and pricier than the newer Honda I thought this was a major mistake on their part. I would have never let us leave that dealership, let alone tell us to go to Honda. Weird.
PLUSES - Nice ride, quality interior. Some cool seat options. Very comfortable interior. Dash was laid out much like what we saw in the T&C actually, functional but not all that striking. Quiet and soft ride. Contrary to what some people will tell you, I found no evidence that you need to use PREMIUM gas in the Toyota. Dealers seemed to have little trouble getting the van you wanted.
MINUSES - Dealers seemed to think you were going to buy one no matter how inept they were. The nice ride comes with the price of it handling like the heavy minivan that it is. Most expensive of the three companies we looked at. Compounded by the fact that you must buy the most expensive option package to get DVD NAV. I thought the way they did the packages was extremely useless. Either give us no choice of packages (Honda) or let us choose whatever we want (Chrysler). Again, all models do not come standard with 2nd/3rd row curtain air bags...this is silly on a $30K plus vehicle, let alone a high end minivan.
Honda (STAFF) - The best of the bunch by quite a margin. One saleman was energetic, a tome of knowledge, and personable. At another dealership our salesman was incredibly honest (basically telling us to get accessories somewhere else at a discount), low-pressure, and capable of answering all our questions. Honda dealerships had individual desks for discussion with your sales rep and had more information available in them (color charts) than at Toyota. The only negative is that Honda dealerships had real trouble keeping cars on the lot, which was made worse by the fact that Odysseys only barely come in each month (getting a color you want is hard, finding the perfect vehicle is impossible...DVD NAV is almost totally impossible to customize where we are). Because of this, Honda was harder to get a discount out of than Chrysler but they were pleasant and tried to work with you (as opposed to Toyota).
PLUSES - Doesn't handle as much like a minivan as the others (it's not close to being a car though). Our test drive seemed pretty agile though considering. The inside of the van shines. Dashboard is beautiful and accessible, seats are incredibly comfortable. We preferred the EX-L's leather seats to the XLE's leather seats, but that was out of a combined pool of about 5 cars...maybe it was just coincidence. Storage space was everywhere and cupholders as far as the eye can see. Seats folded easily and everything closed very solidly. Electronic sliding doors seemed incredibly easy to manually slide. Grab handles were in multiple places (sometimes 2 sets per location). If I was near-invalid I could still work the seats, doors, and ingress/egress of this van. ALL AIRBAGS ARE STANDARD (what is wrong with everyone else?) Van seemed very tightly put together and seams were small. It was obvious that people fell in love with this van after sitting in it/driving it.
MINUSES - Good luck finding the colors/trim level/especially anything with GPS on the lot. They barely get them in here and basically you have to take what they get. The roof rack design sucks. You only get side rails and to put in the crossbars you have to take a hacksaw to the side rails....I kid you not. This was $400 (including parts/labor) at our dealer. Obviously we will not be letting them install it. (Don't believe me....then go here and look at the crossbar install instructions: http://www.handa-accessories.com/odyext05.html
Ride is firmer than in the Sienna.
I don't like to gush about any car, but the Honda was just much better suited to what we were looking for. The Toyota was pricier and it seemed harder to get options you wanted without accepting some (what I consider to be) frivolous stuff...ie. laser cruise. The Honda had comfortable seating, ample power, standard safety feature that we were shopping for (side curtains), and enough seat utility to be acceptable as a 7 person crusier in a pinch. I am sad to say that Chrysler had almost nothing to offer beyond a somewhat gimmicky Sto-N-Go feature and good product availability. My in-laws came away pleased with dropping $31K for an EX-L (Odyssey with Leather for those wondering), so there isn't much more of a testament I can make than that.
Some people will certainly disagree with me and you are welcome to, but I thought this might help some other potential buyers in case their experience mimics ours.
Having said that, it wouldn't dissuade me from purchasing the van. The Odyssey is too oustanding a fit for what my in-laws wanted to pass it up.
God help the Toyota dealers in my area....
Steve, Host
Also, the Sienna is barely outselling the Odyssey. Considering how few of them were available at my local dealers I would wager that it's more of a supply problem than that of demand. Notice that the Odyssey outsold the Sienna in December (most recent data) by the entire amount that the Sienna outsold the Odyssey for the whole year of 2004 (obviously including Dec as well). Basically, the Odyssey made up for much of the past year's difference just in December. Obviously no reason to feel sorry for Toyota, but the December sales do say something.
Daimler / Chrysler always sells more....but the van is still not that impressive. Money (price) talks I guess. And that is a Caravan / T&C strongpoint as always. Getting $2000 + 4 years of 0% OR $2500 back in your pocket is pretty hard to pass up for most families I would think, considering the vans are not incapable. I just think they are a weak effort considering what the competition offers. At least they are priced accordingly.
The only disappointing note was that with Odyssey, the boot seems to be firmly on the dealers' foot.
I briefly looked at the CollegeHillsHonda website:
http://www.collegehillshonda.com/instructions/gen3_odyssey/crossb- - ars.pdf
regarding the crossbars and downloaded the PDF. The only tools required were 2 screwdrivers. I maybe wrong though.
Once again great review.
As for the vans, at least the fact that the minivans are so different will make it possible for most families to feel like they got exactly what they wanted. Each company's van seems to have it's own very definite personality. Happy hunting.
I like everything about the Odyssey except for the drivers seat. It is very uncomfortable for me. Did you test drive an EX with cloth by any chance? There isn't one on the lot here for me to test.
Thanks for your input.
Depends on what you want or what you think is impressive.I am impressed by stow and go seating. By a smooth and quiet ride. By having driver and passenger seats that fit like a glove. By having no rattles or wind noise. So far I haven't seen the competition beat all that. Chrysler Corp. sells more mini vans than Honda, Toyota, Mazda and Nisson put together. So it has to be a little more than just price.
Sales do take more into account than just price. Chrysler has always sold more minivans than anyone else, but they also have the capacity to do so. Minivans have been Chrysler's savior since their introduction, they are fully devoted to their production....near dependent on it I would venture to guess. Even our own Edmunds estimates that 1/3 of their total profit is from minivans. Do you think 1/3 of either Honda's or Toyota's profits come from the Ody and Sienna? Not likely. Mazda and Nissan are really not pertinent. Why not throw in Kia at that point, at least there is an amazing price/product ratio there.
Again, the T&Cs and Caravans aren't bad vans in the least, but I don't think the dominant sales figures can be attributed to the assumption that their vans are just that much better than everyone else's. I think price and being a domestic company helps (though I think that is mostly just perception at this point....our Ford was assembled in Mexico and my Honda in Ohio). But mainly I think the fact that Chrysler has devoted so much production effort to the minivan segment is what allows them to stay on top. At the end of the day, I can't buy an Odyssey or Sienna if they aren't there to buy. And if you check your local Honda dealers for an Ody with DVD/NAV and try to specify a color....you will know what I am talking about. Minivans are Chrysler's bread and butter market, but Toyota and Honda are quickly eroding what was once a substantial gap while still managing to crank out Camrys, Corollas, Accords, and Civics all over the place.
After 100,000 miles they will have their share of rattles. I know. I owned one.
If you think the Dodge/Chrysler will have their share of rattles after 100,000 miles from now. You have to wonder how much worse the rattles will be in the Honda if they're already doing it.
But....what rattles are you talking about in the Hondas? I have heard some complaints on the Accord boards, but I don't remember anything specifically from the Ody people? Some of it could easily be teething problems with loose curtain airbags or similar hidden safety features stuffed into the pillars of the Accord/Ody if there are rattles. Even assuming that were the case, which I don't think it is, I'll take the rattles if all the safety features come standard. It's no problem to secure a rattling airbag in comparison with making one appear out of nowhere when I need it in the other vans. I still don't understand why Toyota/Chrysler don't make the 2nd/3rd row curtains standard at least on the mid and uppper level models.
I did not get to test drive an EX with cloth unfortunately. I actually don't like leather and prefer the cloth in general but the EX-L's seats and seat warmers were pretty tempting. I wouldn't turn down one if someone wanted to get me a Christmas present;) I only got to sit in the EX driver's seat on the showroom. I liked it better than the leather, but again, I am kind of anti-leather biased. The lumbar support of the leather was a little more pronounced and I liked the "looser" approach of the cloth.
Sorry if that was not helpful.
The Odyssey was tight, much tighter even than a friend's '03 Accord EX. It was fun to drive. Basically, it was the only one that put a smile on our faces when we got out.
Where's the rattles? I just got done reading about two more people with them. 3888 and 3889 on the Honda Odysseey Owner PLS. But I have read many of them on this sight. They don't seem to be coming from the side air bags. Most are from the side doors.
I would rather have a van with no rattles. I can always order air bags on my van if they don't come standard. The important thing is if you can get them, not if they are standard equiptment
Had an "Interesting" experience at this particular dealer. I specifically asked to test drive the ex and ex-l. They said o.k. but when we went out to for the test drive it was actually an LX! They didn't have either of the ones I specifically asked for. The salesperson said the seat is the same as the ex. Actually it's a lot softer as it doesn't have the lumbar support. Wasn't impressed with the sales person but was VERY impressed with the Odyssey. Lots of pick up. Took it on the highway and didn't get blown around. It was a pretty snowy slippery day here in Ontario so thought it was the best time to try out the traction control and VSC. I was extremely impressed. As I'm used to my AWD highlander I was sceptical that the odyssey would handle as well and grip the road as well and I was pleasantly surprised. I was also impressed that the Odyssey comes standard with Michelin LX4 tires. I'm a big Michelin fan and have cross terrains on my highlander.
The other things that really impressed me were the height adjustable seat belts in the second row. Also, the front of the vehicle seems quite a bit shorter than the sienna, therefore seems easier to manouver.
All in all I think I'm leaning towards the odyssey over the Sienna.....if I can ever get to test drive the ex!!
I appreciate the helpful information from these posts and I hope this info is helpful to others as well.
Sienna's maze of options is lost on me; Odyssey's 3-4 tier system of straightforward option packages I like much better; Sienna and Odyssey both ride well; they both offer plenty of passing power; but the Odyssey seems to offer more standard features, and buck for buck seems to give you more; by way of illustration, I am paying 29.5K for an Odyssey with leather, rear DVD entertainment system, etc., etc., etc. and would have spent probably not less than 33k for the Toyota (Sienna) equivalent. No thanks. Both vans are promising, quality items and have exceedingly great predicted reliability. Despite my Odyssey purchase, I wouldn't balk from purchasing a Sienna for the right price.
We also noticed the adjustable 2nd row seat belts, very nice. Not too useful for us with all adults being carried but my g/f and her sister are short so that may yet prove advantageous after all.
odysseus: I also thought the Sienna packages confusing. And even with more choice than Honda it seemed harder to get what you wanted. Maybe the price was just a subconscious player in all that. It's especially hard when most Sienna shoppers are also trying to compare in their head against two other makes and models. But I also agree with you in that if we had been offered a good deal on the Sienna we would not have hesitated much to buy it.
Anyway I love it my wife drives a 01 RX300 and said she likes it too. I have the Nav and can say that works better than the Nav in my Lexus. I guess it should since it's yrs newer. So far it's been a dream and this being our first van were lucky to have a choice between the Ody and Sienna. We chose the Ody for 3 reason. 1st price we paid 32,500 plus tax (1500 over invoice) for our EXL R&N Sienna was 36,000 plus tax for XLE Ltd with Nav. 2nd was the the Interior dash and Nav with the front loading DVD. 3rd was the most important we felt the Ody drove better not big and mushy like a van usually does. The comfort from the drivers seat sold me. This is probably a personal choice.
Only complaint thus far is no factory leather for the steering wheel and the stock radio (120 WATTS) is just ok. I have not heard any squeaks or rattles.
I added fog lights a leather shift knob, splash guards and ordered a wood leather steering wheel from a company in Texas. About 1k in extras but why not it's still cheaper than the Touring model and much less than the Sienna. The last tank I got 20.5 mpg using 87 octane.
I'm deciding between an AWD Sienna and the Odyssey. I was leaning toward the new Odyssey, but driving in the snow made me rethink the decision; also the discussion of seating arrangements.
Anyone with good/bad experience driving either in the snow/ice? thanks....
Steve, Host
The other issue with the tires is that there are not many people currently trained to replace this tire and there aren't many places that have the equipment to do so.
Our dealership is trying to help my two friends but there aren't many options in run flat tires. Also there is no place to put a spare tire because of the placement of the AWD system. So regular tires are not a real option unless you want to carry the spare in the back.
I'm in the same quandry. I would love to get the AWD Sienna but these run flat tires are a real deterrent.
Honestly, changing a tire is not all that big a deal for us so we really wanted to avoid run-flats. If you are just doing local ferrying of kids/cargo and the primary driver is not going to be putting on a spare ever anyway, I can see going for the run-flats......maybe. I do like being able to go on tirerack.com and having multitudes of choices on replacement tires though.
Also, I've had no problem with my run-flats. Sure, I wish I could get longer life out of them. But over the life of the vehicle, the AWD performance is worth an extra set of tires or two. And my local tire shop did a fine job of mounting my run-flat snow tires (purchased at the TireRack--several options were available at the time). I don't believe any special equipment is necessary (like for Honda's PAX)-- just some extra time, patience, and slightly higher labor charge. With my RFT Blizzaks, this vehicle has been fantastic in this recent barrage of snow we've had here in the northeast. I grab the keys for the Sienna every time it snows, while my 4WD Tundra sits in the garage.
Yes, I have purchased multiple computers myself. But in that example, you start with a base and then add on each feature you want.
The Toyota packages are bewildering because 1) they are seemingly random groupings of options, 2) if you like 3 things but want a fourth, there may be no package that offers you all four OR there is a package with all four but also a bunch of stuff you don't want, and 3) a minor thing but significant to me is that the packages are identified by plain numerals, with no indication of any sort of theme or grouped function. The salespeople I dealt with in my search had to keep referring back to paperwork with listings of option packages, because they had no logic to use to remember them.
Tested.
Odyssey EXL Res Nav +1
Sienna LE 8 passenger.
Ride - tie. The Sienna is a little softer, but the firmer ride of the Honda is just as comfortable.
Handling - Odyssey. A little bit crisper, better than the second generation, but not as carlike as the first (the extra 1,000 lbs doesn't help).
Acceleration - tie. Both are plenty adequate.
Shifting - tie. Under hard acceleration both seemed to cut way to much engine power during shifts, and took too long to shift. I am used to faster crisper shifts. I was not impressed with either. I did prefer the straight forward Honda gearshift to the gated shifter of the Toyota.
Noise - Sienna. The major culprit was wind, and the Odyssey had more of it. Both engines were quiet at cruising speed.
Front seats - Tie. Did not take a major trip with either, but they both were easy enough to adjust to a comfortable position.
Middle seats - Hard to compare because the Toyota has two versions of middle seats. We like the three accross seating of the Sienna, and it is definately more comfortable for three adults than the Odyssey with the +1. It is not as comfortable for two adults though. With the 7 passenger Sienna the middle row is a tie.
Rear seats - Odyssey. No comparison. The Sienna felt cramped in the way back, and Honda was actually useable for an adult.
Access - Sienna. The middle seats tumbled forward nicely and gave plenty of room to get to the third row.
Fuel mileage - Tie. The Sienna slots in between the two hondas (VCM and non VCM). I have been reading people reports on gas mileage, and so far VCM does not seem to be offering as much advantage as hoped. I was impressed by the 21.5 mpg average that the trip computer said the Sienna got during our test drive (the vehicle only had a dozen or so miles) this included a little bit of idling and some 65-70 mph highway cruising plus a some time on access roads.
Reliability - CR has the Sienna higher right now, and recently new models from both companies have been only average to slightly better (improving in subsequent years)
Cargo/Versitility - Tie. The Sienna has more space behind the third seat (at the expense of third seat room), but the space is so tall it is awkward to use. Both vans could benefit by having some sort of shelf system available. The Honda is a little more flexible for passengers with the +1 seat.
Quality/Materials - Honda. The dash was extremely legible, and controls seemed just right. I really don't like the shiny black plastic on the Sienna - what were they thinking?
Nit picks.
I find it strange that the Honda has no trip computer (except on touring) - you would think they would want to highlight the improved fuel mileage.
Both vans know DVD's are getting popular and force many extras on the buyer. Honda is worse by forcing leather, sunroof and VCM. Toyota just forces stability control and a few other smaller items.
The overall winner.
Still deciding, but price will play a major role. I like the Honda a little better, but configured the way I want it is about $1,500 more. I realize it is a better value comparing apples to apples, but it has a lot of apples that I don't need or want.
I look forward to seeing what CR has to say about both vehicles in their next issue.
If you don't want the leather, sunroof and VCM, but do want a DVD overhead system, consider an aftermarket overhead DVD system. They are GREAT! You can have a Panasonic or Sony system with 9" screen and built-in DVD player installed for about $800-$900. The Sony especially would almost look like a factory system since it's silver color.
Since you don't want the moonroof, overhead system can be installed very easily. With moonroof it just takes a bit more work, but is also very doable. I have a Sony system installed in our Touring with moonroof and other people have Panasonic unit with moonroof as well.
You can buy a larger-screen laptop that plays DVDs for the price of adding the feature. And I would think a GPS/Navigation gizmo would be something you'd want to carry around, not just have in the car. And besides which, with the rapid advancements in technology, the current systems will be outdated by this time next year.
"You can buy a larger-screen laptop that plays DVDs for the price of adding the feature. And I would think a GPS/Navigation gizmo would be something you'd want to carry around, not just have in the car. And besides which, with the rapid advancements in technology, the current systems will be outdated by this time next year."
Interesting view. Hard for me to understand, though. I rarely am walking around looking for something and need a GPS. If I am close enough to walk, I doubt I need a GPS in hand. If driving, I could be miles away. And every technology is outdated a year or two later. Doesn't matter to me as long as what I have works. Buying a laptop is a possibility, but keeping it tied down while trying to use it (and what if I need NAVI up front buts kids want DVD in back?) and other security/safety issues make it impractical.
So, I cannot understand why anyone who wants a NAVI or especially NAVI/DVD would NOT get an in-car unit.
For Navi, you can get one for a Palm or PocketPC for about $300. And you can use that while in another car.
In my mind, that's an indication about how these options could be overpriced.
Anyway, I hope that folks keep in mind that those are viable options. It's more convenient to have it in the car, but for the $$, it may or may not be worth that much more. All just my opinion, of course. :-)
From what we have heard out of VCM's inability to increase MPG, it seems Honda is better off not having a trip computer in the lower trim levels. Those that can afford the Touring probably don't care as much about MPG. However, I view VCM as a very powerful marketing tool that could have made me pay extra for a higher trim level. Luckily, we purchased a Sienna instead. The last Highway trip we took was from Indianapolis, IN to Sandusky, OH. On the way up I checked MPG and it was 24.1 MPG on regular unleaded. Note that Indianapolis is lower in elevation than Northern Ohio, which means we were climbing a constant low grade. On the way back, I topped the Sienna off with Sunoco Ultra 94 just to see if would make a difference. Well, the downward grade of heading back to Indy and the Ultra 94 netted 27.4 MPG. The van has about 6200 miles on it, so it isn't fully broken in yet. I hope you Honda drivers start to get better MPG, otherwise I would be real steamed.
Higher octane fuel is generally a waste for vehicles that are designed to operate OK with regular grade fuel, even those that advertise better performance with premium, with regular grade is acceptable. This is because unless the engine is under heavy load, any knock sensing system that retards the engine timing under knocking conditions will not be operating as the knock is not occuring under light load even with regular grade fuel. Cruising on relatively level freeways means you are not loading up the engine and thus spark is fully advanced whether you are using regular or high octane fuel.
Many people don't understand this, and the oil companies will never tell you that, since they can make more money on higher octane fuels.
Edited addendum: Sandusky on Lake Erie and Lake Erie's elevation is 569 feet above mean sea level. Indianapolis is at 717 feet. So you are driving downhill going from Indy to Sandusky.
You can buy a larger-screen laptop that plays DVDs for the price of adding the feature."
I have two portable DVD players and a laptop that can play DVD. Yet they're completelly useless to me for the purpose of showing a video to our 18-months old. She's not old enough to hold it on her lap and the attachment systems I've seen are too clunky.
I won't be the primary driver so I suppose that is fair.
I know it's a good babysitter but, still...
It is a nice break on a 12 hour drive.
I know it's a good babysitter but, still..."
I hear you. But I don't think it is constantly. We had our new Ody three weeks before we used the DVD player. Now I am teaching my 3-year-old that DVD is only for long trips (2 hours or more, for him). So far, so good. He just likes being in the van. Doesn't care for headphones, though. Have to work on that.
Speaking of, when you buy an Ody, should the headphones work out of the box? I haven't made ours work, yet, but then I haven't tried hard. Do they need batteries? I'll try to look it up over the weekend.
Don't forget that your children will need car seats of one sort or another for many years. (At least booster seats.) If you're a safety nut like me and plan to try and keep your kids in 5-point Britax Husky seats until they weigh 80 pounds, then realize that Husky seats are very wide, and that all car seats require seatbelt mounting once the kids weigh over 48 pounds.
You may need to go to a dealer, preferably with a bunch of car seats, in order to get the answers to some of your questions.
The differences between the two vehicles (for car seats) seems to boil down to:
Ody: The seatbelts come from the side of the vehicle, rather than from the car seat itself. Many car seat configurations especially for older kids require that seatbelts be used rather than the Latch system.
Since putting a chair in the seat prevents it from folding, what many people do is remove the center seat / console and use the resulting space as a walkway to the third row.
The Ody only has three LATCH positions: the two 2nd row captain's chairs and the center rear seat. You may or may not consider this as an indication of where Honda engineering thought it would be best to put the children's chairs.
The Honda only has one rear tether attachment point behind the rear seats. (In the center) So for larger children this means you are only supposed to put one car seat in the third row of the Honda.
Another point is that the Ody 8th seat is very narrow. You may not be able to use the configuration the driver side plus center seat for two child seats, unless you have narrow child seats.
Sienna: The seatbelts are built into the chair itself, so if you have the center row configured as center plus driver side, then there is free passage from the passenger side to the rear.
Sienna has 4 LATCH positons: the two outboard 2nd row seats and the center and passenger side third row seats. I have heard (but not verified) that there are three tether attachment points in the Sienna, and some people say they have the advantage of being in the ceiling rather than the floor, so you don't lose the cargo room that you would in the Ody.
Also the Sienna 8 seat config has more evenly sized 2nd row seats, and the 2nd row middle seat can be "indexed", or brought forward. This may allow you to more easily fit wide car seats. Also if you have only one baby it may be easier to care for the baby from the front seat if the baby is in the indexed position.
Regarding the curtain airbags, I think that their main safety advantage is keeping unbelted passengers inside the car during a rollover accident. Since your kids will always be belted, the curtain airbags aren't going to add much to their safety.
I myself was leaning towards the Ody 7 seat for price / handling / perceived reliability reasons until I realized the problems I would probably have fitting three Husky car seats. Now I'm leaning towards the Sienna. Haven't figured out whether 7 or 8 seats would be best for me yet.