Buick Lucerne

miggy3 · June 2005

Where do you get up-to-date information on the days supply for new vehicles?

alpha01 · June 2005

It wasnt a LeSabre, it was a Grand Prix. The 3800 has its merits, but its not as refined as engines in competitors, and especially not competitors costing $31K as a well equipped LeSabre can.

~alpha

1487 · June 2005

Listen, if you are a fan of the 500 that is your business. the bottom line here is that the Lucerne is designed to compete with more expensive cars. You have decided that the 500 will be superior because it offers more base hp and has a lower price. I dont think anyone really considers the 500 a luxury car while the Lucerne will be considered one. I agree 100% that the 3800 shouldnt be the base engine so you are preaching to the choir here. You seem to be predicting the failure of the Lucerne on the grounds that it is not enough like the 500 but the 500 hasnt exactly been a runaway success. I can tell you in my area the 500 does not seem to be as popular as the lacrosse in spite of its superior room and value. Granted they have mimimized the incentives, but the 500 hasn't outsold the Lacrosse by a substantial margin which is interesting when you consider that t he lacrosse is just one of GM many midsize models and the 500 is the staple of Ford's sedan lineup. You are wrong when you suggest that the Lacrosse has been selling with huge discounts. That is totally false, the Lacrosse didnt even have a substantial discount before the GM employee program began. Before that I believe the rebate was $500 dollars which hardly qualifies as "huge".

"The LeSabre outsells the Avalon and when it becomes the Lucerne, no doubt will continue to do so. That said, the Avalon was projected at 85K units/year and Toyota has had to up capacity to the current Monthly Run Rate equal to 120K/ year. Thats pretty impressive to me, especially when you consider that vehicles like the LeSabre (and LaCrosse) sell at substantial discounts. "

First of all the Avalon is brand new and it's replacing a lame older model so it's going to have a great first year. Second of all, it's main competition, the Lesabre, is currently 6 years old and it severely outclassed in terms of interior design and power. The main competition for the Avalon would be the 500, which is cheaper, less luxurious and much less powerful, and the 300 which is doing well. Toyota and Honda are famous for having low sales estimates that get boosted a few short months into production. I'm sure they knew how well the car was going to do. While the 300 is the media darling, the success of the Avalon shows that not everyone is looking for a brash RWD car.

Are you suggesting the 500 is a no compromise car? If so I have to disagree. The 500 comes up short on power, features and styling. On top of that I am not crazy about the interior and i definitely find the Lucerne's interior to be better.

62vetteefp · June 2005

automotive news

imidazol97 · June 2005

Now you've gone from knowledge that a 3800 is not appropriate to a Lucerne to you drove it in a Gran Prix, a completely different target automobile. The noise is not controlled nearly as much (it's a sports car in the eyes of the buyers I know) and it spares the weight for the power.

Strengths of 3800 that's so unrefined as stated: 36 mpg traveling at 70 on interstate on trip here to Nashville. 3 adults and luggages. I set it on the interstate and let her run to see what she'd do over the strip between Louisville and TN border. Never heard any thrashing from the motor. Seemed refined to my better half too. Come on. Let's be real about what some people need and want from an automobile versus what others want and need. I used to want image in a car and something I perceived was fun to drive. Now I want a good dependable car.

chris65amg · June 2005

I've said some very harsh stuff about the Five Hundred, but I really don't know why that matters. The fact of the matter is that Buick is trying to lower the buyer's average age (but then again, few companies aren't) and the Lucerne's base model won't do it.

"" the bottom line here is that the Lucerne is designed to compete with more expensive cars""

Exactly! So it shouldn't have a paltry engine/tranny combo in a car that will undoubtedly be competing with the Avalon and 300 Limited!

I like the Lucerne and Five Hundred about the same. Not a great thing.

And that's not even the worst thing.
GM's own Impala, a Chevy, will outpower the Lucerne in base form. Would it have killed GM to put the 3.5L in the Lucerne base as they did in the Impala?

alpha01 · June 2005

I think its interesting that you feel I am a fan of the Five Hundred. Im not necessarily, I just think its more appropriate to the marketplace than the base Lucerne will be.

I'm glad we agree on the 3800 issue. But since we do, and since you contend that the Lucerne is competing against more expensive models than the Five Hundred/Montego, does this not give you some major pause as to the Lucerne's success potential?

You feel that I "seem to be predicting the failure of the Lucerne on the grounds that it is not enough like the 500 but the 500 hasnt exactly been a runaway success." Actually, I am stating it will be a struggle because the Lucerne lags further behind the Five Hundred in categories where that car isnt especially impressive, such as the powerplant. I agree that the Five Hundred hasnt been a runaway success. THUS FUTHERING MY POINT that the majority of non-high end Lucernes will have a difficult time in the marketplace against the more expensive vehicles you feel it will compete against.

With regards to the LaCrosse, prior to the Employee Discount program (which has been met with tremendous success), the vehicle featured $1000 rebates in the Northeast. It debuted 8 months ago. Is that supposed to be impressive? I definitely take your point about the Five Hundred being Fords mainstay whereas the LaCrosse is one of many GM models. That said, Five Hundred sales have been kept at only 12% fleet, and although I dont have the figure for LaCrosse fleet sales, I cant think its better than that number, and, as mentioned, the Five Hundred offers lower incentives.

"Toyota and Honda are famous for having low sales estimates that get boosted a few short months into production." Really? Well, then youd think that GM and Ford would wise up and stop releasing figures that they seem to never hit. Regardless of the estimate, that Toyota can run to capacity production on a full size American made car while not offering substantial incentives speaks volumes. Neither GM or Ford has done this.

Where did you read that I am suggesting that the Five Hundred is a no compromise car? What features does the Five Hundred not have that are so important? Really, I can think of only stability control and Navigation. Otherwise, styling is subjective, and the FWD Five Hundred tops out at 28K, which, in all likelihood, will not get you as many features as will a 195 horse, 4 speed auto $28K Lucerne. No doubt, the Lucerne V8 will nail the Five Hundred from a performance/features standpoint. But then, it will be more expensive, and still have to do battle with the successful 300Cs and Avalons of the world.

Finally.... you've been in a Lucerne to know how the interior is constructed, materials quality, etc?

~alpha

62vetteefp · June 2005

3.8 is a Buick engine from way back. Chevy had no strings to that engine. Buick has a whole bunch of loyal buyers who will love the 3.8L. Capacity on the new engines will be added and the 3.8L will die.

62vetteefp · June 2005

"With regards to the LaCrosse, prior to the Employee Discount program (which has been met with tremendous success), the vehicle featured $1000 rebates in the Northeast. It debuted 8 months ago. Is that supposed to be impressive?"

Most other Buicks and GM cars had a $2500 - $3500 rebate. Big difference to the $500-$1000 on the LaCrosse.

LaCrosse fleet is very low. Less than 12%.

When did GM announce the proposed production figures on the LaCrosse? they did'nt.

I have been in a Lucerne interior. Top notch.

imidazol97 · June 2005

3.8 liter has been dead. It has been the 3800 for years. Someone else can probably delineate the changes that came with the name change.

johnclineii · June 2005

Yep, they took out the period and added two zero's. That's about it...

Actually, it happened, I think, when the Series II came out, and there were substantial changes to improve refinement and durability...(tactfully not mentioning plastic manifolds, though)...

62vetteefp · June 2005

hee hee, yes we call it the 3800 but it is still a 3.8L.

For the series III a number of enhancements were made to quiet it down. the largest improvement was to add a stuctural oil pan.

alpha01 · June 2005

I certainly stand corrected if LaCrosse fleet is lower than 12%, that would shock me because thats where the Five Hundred is, and that number is lower than the Chrysler 300 fleet sales.

I dont care what incentives were on other GM vehicles, the one Im talking about is the LaCrosse, and with a $1000 Cash Back 8 months out of the gate, thats not impressive. Current Camry incentives in my area are $750 back or 2.9-4.9% financing... but that vehicle is only 44 months since debut.....

~alpha

62vetteefp · June 2005

I am glad you do not care what the other Buick incentives are. Tells us what you are trying to do. Everyone knows GM incentives are higher than the imports because their MSRP's are higher than the volume they desire. GM started this sept 11 to keep our economy going and now they need to get out and they are attempting to do this.

Fact is LaCrosse incentives are much lower than other Buicks because they are a new vehicle and do not need as much to get the volume they desire. Everyone expects incentives at GM and they had to have them to sell any. BUT I do see the MSRP being lowered to get more volume and I would guess the incentives would stay around $1000 for LaCrosse but lower on other Buicks.

National incentives range from $750-$1500 with the same interest range of 1.9-4.9% for Camry. LaCrosse is $1000 and the 1.9/4.9% with the temporary employee discount. Sales are cooking!!! Lets hope they are profitable!!!

The majority of fleet for GM is going to Chevrolets to keep their volume up and keep the other nameplates more profitable.

dispencer1 · June 2005

It would be interesting to see in a survey how many Toyota owners switch to GM. I have had several Toyotas. All were absolutely dependable, none rode as well as my 2001 Malibu, and all cost a fortune if you follow the 'book" for dealer servicing. My Chevy dealer is much more reasonable. I wouldn't have a Chrysler product on a bet -reliability is terrible. I've never seen a Toyota dealer who was "ready to deal". Most of the ones I've done business with acted as though they were doing you a tremendous favor to sell you the car. This is just my experience though. I'm glad you had a different one.

aauno1 · July 2005

Sounds like they believe in their products!

1487 · July 2005

I have already noted that there are many cars in this price range that offer 200hp or less. That does not excuse the lucerne but at least we can acknowledge it's not alone. I dont buy your contention that the 500's lukewarm success with a 200hp engine spells doom for the Lucerne. First of all the Lucerne is replacing a successful model, the lesabre. The 500 is kind of replacing the fleet only Taurus but not really.Second of all, the 500 has been criticized for excessive engine noise and abrupt shifting. These are things that turn buyers off and are not likely to be an issue in the Lucerne. Third of all, the Lucerne (IMHO) doesn't look as boring as the 500. The high roof sedan concept may be popular amongst economy cars, but it doesnt work on the 500.

The Lucerne will be up against tough competition in the 300 and Avalon, but if it is priced right it will do well. I think anyone can admit the Lucerne's interior is superior to the 300. No I haven't sat in it but the pictures give a good idea of what to expect. I also think it's styling is more appealing than either car, although the 300 has a more youthful look.

When did GM ever release sales estimates for the Lacrosse? GM rarely does that anymore, but if they did they wouldnt be as unrealistic as Toyota and Honda. Honda originally said they planned to sell 50K ridgelines a year and I laughed at that. Naturally, three months down the road they are saying customers are forcing them to ramp up production.

The Lacrosse has not been peddled to fleets like its predecessors and that is one reason why it sales havent been great. I think it's better for Buick to sell to real people than to boost numbers by selling to Enterprise. In the last few months the Lacrosse's sales have been close to that of the 300 but the 300 is a runaway hit and the Lacrosse is a flop according to people like you.

Where do you live that Camry's can only be had with $750 off? Toyota doesnt do big national rebates, but their dealers are offering cars for $2000K+ off MSRP right now. A discount is a discount no matter how you cut it. People want to pretend Toyota sells cars with no discounts by comparing manufacturer issued rebates, not actual transaction discounts. As a company Toyota offers customers far less in direct rebates, but that doesnt mean the customer isn't getting a significant discount.

Engine aside, I expect the Lucerne to have a lot of standard equipment, such as leather (that is confirmed), pwr seats, 17" wheels etc. People buying these kinds of cars want to see content, have a quiet ride and a lot of space. As much as I hate the 3800 being in the Lucerne, most buyers of low end models wont care just like people who buy the new Avalon could care less about having 280hp on tap to speed to Bingo each night. If the pricing and advertising is good than the car has a chance.

I also dont consider $1000 rebate on an overpriced car like the lacrosse to be outrageous. There arent many cars in that price range not selling for discounts. Have you looked the advertised pricing on the altima lately? Remember, it was just freshened for 2005.

1487 · July 2005

The argument that incentive levels determine the desirability of a car doesn't fly with me. Just because the 4 year old camry has low incentives from the factory doesnt mean it's automatically a better car. The marketplace says that Toyota can sell anything to anybody. The camry is behind on power, styling, innovative features and other things but since its a toyota and the brand image is sky high they can continue selling them like hot cakes. The lower incentives dont change the fact that the Lacrosse looks better inside and out than a camry is probably quieter to boot.

alpha01 · July 2005

That you feel the LaCrosse looks better than the Camry is purely subjective, and completely irrelevant in a discourse where a vehicles overall execution is concerned. You also cite that Camrys sell for $2 grand off sticker, which I will completely AGREE with. However, I was talking about the REBATE available. I live in the Greater NY Toyota region and the REBATE is $750 or special financing. If you're talking money off sticker, the LaCrosse is much greater than the $1000 REBATE, especially now that GM's Employee Discount Program was launched. Compare apples to apples, please... REBATES are one thing, total $$$ off MSRP is another, the difference between the two being good negotiation skills/ the reception of the vehicle in the market.

Toyota CANT, and doesnt, sell anything to anybody. Witness the recently euthanized ECHO, the T100, Paseo, etc.

The Camry is behind on styling? What the heck does that mean? Innovative features? Surely you musnt be talking about things like NAV (which the LaCrosse doesnt offer) or stability control (which the LaCrosse only offers on CXS trim) or side thoracic bags (LaCrosse only comes with optional head curtians) or standard ABS. (Its not 2006 yet). The Camry is down on power? Compared to what? And since the Camry is behind on "other things", can you name what they might be? Please realize that Im not saying everyone should buy a Camry. They shouldnt. But dont make arguments that you cant back up with some kind of substantive, factual detail.

ALSO, I NEVER SAID INCENTIVES ARE DIRECTLY ATTRIBUTABLE to a vehicles overall execution/goodness. That is something you inferred. However, if you cant peddle a brand new model without incentives for at least a short time, that speaks to the vehicle's reception in the marketplace, and typically, ones that are well received dont need that much to get out the door. You cite the Altima, which was freshened for 2005. What exactly is your point? That model has $1500 nationwide REBATE (not disc off MSRP, mind you), and it DEBUTED in FALL 2001. Most vehicles that have been around for 4 model years have some incentives. GM vehicles that have been around for 4 model years usually have multiple thousands stuffed in the trunk (again, just talking rebates, not $$$ off MSRP).

Now, with respect to the Lucerne, GM will need to get its pricing right. The Five Hundred hasnt been a runaway success for Ford, but it has done fairly well, selling only 11% to fleet buyers, and without major incentives.. What is the percentage for the LaCrosse? What will be the percentage for the Lucerne?

Finally.....wait... there are many full size models with less than 200 horses under the hood? Hmmn... I cant think of only the Kia Amanti and the rental grade 2.7L 300.

Like I said, the Lucerne will be a good car, competing against better ones, and will have its work cut out for it, just as the LaCrosse does. Now, if the 240 horse 3.9L was the base engine, I think itd be a different story, as the playing field would be much more level.

~alpha

charko2 · July 2005

I miss my bonnie boo hoo. Don't want to leave my gm dealer because I am in love with my service manager, in fact his whole dept. Lucceme vis Bonnie 05 (if I can find one?)

johnclineii · July 2005

What's a "bonnie boo hoo?"

chris65amg · July 2005

Pontiac Bonneville. Never heard that nickname, though.

charko2 · July 2005

Right my bonnie is the bonneville. and boo hoo means I'm crying over its death.

1487 · July 2005

I will try o explain this as simply as possible. Any car that sells for a substantial discount obviously needs that discount to maintain volume. Toyota and Honda generally do not like to have large national rebate programs for PR reasons. There are other ways to provide the customers with incentives like offering the dealers cash for every sale which allows the dealers to sell cars for $3K off MSRP. You are saying that the lack of large rebates on Accords and Camrys proves that they are more desirable cars. The bottom line is that the dealers for these cars are advertising (more Altima and Camry than Accord) huge discounts and that gets customers in the door. The source of those discounts really is irrelevant. The whole point of these incentives is that the customer is paying far less than MSRP. Do you really think Toyota and Nissan sales wouldnt drop if they stuck to their pathetic $750 rebates and nothing more? Unless you are selling highly desirable luxury cars these days people want a deal. I dont see where negotiation skills are required when ads in the paper clearly tell you a camry is available for $3000 off sticker, it seems pretty plain to me. Just as plain as walking into a GM dealer and getting a car for the emplyee discount price.

The lacrosse has an uphill battle because it's not a recognized name brand and the price was too high. Whatever rebates were offered on the lacrosse were just price corrections that brought the car to a more realistic price point. When a Lacrosse CXS costs $29K I have a hard time believing GM was hurting when they offered $1000 cash back.

If GM is learning anything, and it appears they are, the Lucerne will be launched with a competitive price and minimal rebates.

BTW, when I said the Camry was behind I wasnt just talking about in relation to the Lacrosse. Clearly the Lacrosse doesnt offer many things not found on the camry. However when you consider other cars in this price range offer AWD, 240-300hp, HIDs, 18" wheels, fold flat front seats, standard ABS/stability control, 6 speed autos, etc. you begin to see my point. The Camry is the class leader in any category that I can think off so as far as I know it is no longer the benchmark in this class.

BAsically you are saying the Lucerne will flop because it has the 3800 as the base engine. That may be true but beyond that your other criticisms of the Lacrosse dont seem to apply to the Lucerne. It's not lacking in safety features, technology (engine excluded) or interior quality. You say its competing against better cars but I dont know which cars in this class are clearly better. The Avalon? It has the engine, but the styling is definitely not for everyone. The 300? The styling isn't for everyone, the interior is hardly class leading and the Lucerne offers quite a few features no found on the 300. I think I've been over the 500 already.

alpha01 · July 2005

You over simplify way too much.

"The source of those discounts really is irrelevant."

Actually, its very relevant in terms of resale values.

"I dont see where negotiation skills are required when ads in the paper clearly tell you a camry is available for $3000 off sticker, it seems pretty plain to me. Just as plain as walking into a GM dealer and getting a car for the emplyee discount price."

Um, theres a big difference, because not EVERY Camry will sell for $3000 less than sticker, whereas EVERY LaCrosse will sell at the substantial employee discount price under that program. Vehicles advertised in papers are often AS YOU SAID, to get people in the showroom, and dont apply to the entire inventory.

"BTW, when I said the Camry was behind I wasnt just talking about in relation to the Lacrosse." Well, thanks for clarifying that, because thats exactly what your post implied. Also, I'd like to point out that simply because the LaCrosse or Camry dont have 18 inch wheels doesnt really put them "behind"- its how those wheels adhere to the road that makes a component of handling ability. However, standard safety features are a much bigger issue, IMO. I agree- the Camry isnt the class leader it once was. But then, this model has about 8 months left on its cycle, and the LaCrosse... has about 42 (at least).

"BAsically you are saying the Lucerne will flop because it has the 3800 as the base engine."

Please find where I said that. I said that I think the Lucerne will have a tough time because most of its volume will be powered by the antique 3800. I didnt say it would flop. Also, please stop referring to styling an objective aspect of a vehicle. It's not. The Avalon is the class leader in overall execution, and the 300 ASIDE FROM STYLING offers excellent road manners and has the Hemi hype behind it, in addition to available AWD. (What are the quite a few features not on the 300 that the Lucerne has?). IFinally, the Hyundai Azera will threaten the Lucerne as it is capacious, luxurious, has an appropriate engine, as well as likely attractive pricing, Hyundai's very strong warranty program, and continually improving image and auto press esteem.

~alpha

johnclineii · July 2005

Alpha01, you state that another poster oversimplifies "way too much." (which begs the question of how much oversimplification is just enough! :P )

Then, you go on to state that the 300 has excellent road manners as though THAT were an objective aspect of a vehicle. Different drivers seek totally different things in road manners (or handling, as I would put it), things that vary greatly. There are those who find the newer Crown Vics/Grand Marquis to have way too stiff a suspension. I, for one, would find even the more recent sport packages on those vehicles to be way too marshmallowey.

LaCrosse is aimed at a target market. If that market buys it and is big enough to constitute a 'success' in GM's book, it will be a success--at least to its maker. If it doesn't, it won't.

As for me? I drove a 300. For a week. And hated it. Supposed road manners and all. And the word excellent is not one I would have thought of in 10,000 years to apply to road manners as an adjective in relation to that car.

imidazol97 · July 2005

>The lacrosse has an uphill battle because it's not a recognized name brand

Uhhhhh, "Buick" is not a recognized name? LaCrosse is not similar to LeSabre?
I have seen a lot of late 20s & 30s people driving LaCrosses; and I've seen some LeSabre types.

>The 300?

Understatement of the year. Haven't driven one; won't be trying one. I recall all the "styling" leadership shown by Chrysler through the years, that flopped. Start with tailfins 1955-1957, I believe. Check out the 1958 Chrysler and Desoto... Later styling with Italian swoops failed to succeed. I compare the 300 to the Seville restyle. It may sell buyers for a couple of years and then they better have something better as did Cadillac.

I'm going to read the 300 forum here to see how the mechical successes are going on the 300. I know what the Pacifica has in its record...

> The Avalon? ...the styling is definitely not for everyone.

Another understatement. It looks bloated to make it look bigger than it's Camry underpinnings deserve. So did the earlier Avalon, although a cowork of my wife had one (along with a Mini). This one shows the continuity of the Toyota line up through the Lexus models.

alpha01 · July 2005

By excellent road manners, I meant handling capabilities that I've observed which are backed by good slalom numbers (objectively derived) in the magazines I've read. The car has good transient response for being so large a vehicle, with little body roll compared to many of its peers. Thats not subjective. Styling, however, is.

Otherwise, I am not a fan of the vehicle, but I did feel it easy to pilot.

~alpha

1487 · July 2005

"The Avalon is the class leader in overall execution, and the 300 ASIDE FROM STYLING offers excellent road manners and has the Hemi hype behind it, in addition to available AWD. (What are the quite a few features not on the 300 that the Lucerne has?). IFinally, the Hyundai Azera will threaten the Lucerne as it is capacious, luxurious, has an appropriate engine, as well as likely attractive pricing, Hyundai's very strong warranty program, and continually improving image and auto press esteem. "

Can you please clarify how the Avalon is the leader in overall execution? The Avalon has the best standard engine in this class, that is a fact. Everything else is purely subjective. I dont find the car's interior or exterior styling to be well executed. The Avalon is yet another dull, reliable car from Toyota, it's just that it has a powerful motor. I am no 300 fan, but I would get a 300 before an Avalon any day. The Avalon looks like a bigger camry or possible a dulled down GS sedan. The interior is far to space age for me.

I would also like you to explain how the Azera spells trouble for the Lucerne, but not the 500, Avalon or 300? As with most GM critics, you fail to recognize that a strong new entry poses a threat to all existing cars in that segment. Sure the Azera will be cheap and offer 265hp which shames the 3800, but at least the Lucerne offers a more powerful engine. What about the 500? It doesnt even offer an optional engine and when the 3.5L engine debuts in the future there is a good chance it wont outpower the Azera. The Avalon will outpower the Azera but the Azera is likely to cost $5000 less than a comparably equipped avalon and it's styling is no more dull than the Avalon. That's not a threat to the Avalon?

about the Camry and it's lifecycle, you contend that the LAcrosse is barely competitive with a 4 year old camry, but you neglect to mention (no surprise here) that the camry has been steadily upgraded over its lifespan. The Lacrosse is far better than a 2002 Camry, but it's merely competitive with a 2005 camry. The camry has received, wheel/tire upgradesm NAV, stability, more power,The SE model line, adjustable pedals, 5 speed auto and other things. I don't follow the car too well, but I'm sure more features have been added. Unless GM is completely inept, I would expect the Lacrosse to see power upgrades, a 6 speed auto, 18" wheels and possibly navigation added within two years or so. A new camry may be on the way, but with a few simple changes the Lacrosse could be competitive with the upcoming camry. In fact, considering how Camry's and Accords are upgraded with new models I wouldnt expect radical changes with the new camry. More power, a hybrid model and a better interior would be top features in my estimation. I'm not sure what you are expecting, but I wouldnt expect it to leapfrog the competition when there is so many competent cars in this segment.

johnclineii · July 2005

That's all nice and all, but the usual GM practice is to DEcontent models after introduction, not to add more features. Witness the Impala from 2000-2005, for example.

I sincerely doubt you will see features ADDED to the Lucerne during each of its design's lives prior to any refreshening. You are more likely to see content removed...or standard items made optional at additional cost.

alpha01 · July 2005

Hmmn, lots to address-

Re: the Avalon
"I dont find the car's interior or exterior styling to be well executed." CAN WE PLEASE MOVE PAST STYLING as a function of a car's merit? It has nothing to do with how the vehicle performs! The Avalon, at this point in time is the leader in the class because it combines in one package more of the better attributes of its competitors. It is roomy, fast, fuel efficient, rides and handles well, offers good ergonomics, a variety of high tech features, and Toyota reliability at a reasonable price.

Re: the Azera
Its a threat to the segment, most definitely. Given its pricing, however, I feel it will be more of a threat to the segment laggards (Five Hundred, base Lucerne, etc) than the leaders (Avalon, 300C).

Re: the Camry
"about the Camry and it's lifecycle, you contend that the LAcrosse is barely competitive with a 4 year old camry, but you neglect to mention (no surprise here) that the camry has been steadily upgraded over its lifespan. The Lacrosse is far better than a 2002 Camry, but it's merely competitive with a 2005 camry."

That makes no sense. What are you talking about? I'm comparing a 2005 LaCrosse to a 2005 Camry, which debuted 4 model years ago. Just because GM goes eons without upgrades doesnt mean that its a good business practice in this industry. Do you really think GM should be lauded for playing catch-up? Toyota uses its upgrades to keep its vehicles selling well, first and foremost.... and the upgrades are a result of competitve threats/pressures.

(FWIW, the only Camry with a wheel/tire upgrade this iteration is the SE V6 in 2005, which accounts for the lowest % of Camry sales. Also, NAV was available in 2002, as was stability control on all V6 models as of 2002, and the SE trim line was added for the 2002 MY, not anytime midcycle).

You really think the LaCrosse is going to get all those upgrades? I dont doubt some of them.... but how many upgrades did the Regal/Century receive?

Seriously, Im not saying either the LaCrosse or the Lucerne are poor vehicles. I think the LaCrosse is one of GMs better efforts in the segment to date. However it/they arent/wont be class leaders. Re: the LaCrosse- dont take my word for it, just read.... ANY REVIEW EVER on the car. Depending on where a consumers preferences lie, it may be a great car for that individual. But as an overall package, its not at the top.

~alpha

62vetteefp · July 2005

Yes it is a bit subjective since it is hard to quantify those handling characteristics unless you own a very expensive piece of equipment to measure them (hint: race car drivers "rent" time from the OEM's on these machines).

But your point is taken, however, not everyone cares about the fastest slalom times. In fact I think most drivers care more about how the ride is. Impacts, tire harshness, floatiness. You give away these features as you minimize body roll and decrease slalom times. Sure handling has to be decent but ride whens out for most folks.

alpha01 · July 2005

"You give away these features as you minimize body roll and decrease slalom times. Sure handling has to be decent but ride whens out for most folks."

I totally agree- there is a compromise that is inherent. My point regarding the Avalon is that it seems for many to be the least compromising- Fast but efficient, smooth riding but a capable if not sporty (in non-Touring trim) handler, roomy but not excessively huge, luxurious but elegant....

~alpha

62vetteefp · July 2005

I have not driven the new Avalon but can probably assume it is similar to the Camry and ES330. Both these cars do exhibit what I call correct "real world driving" needs. They handle very acceptably for most any driving condition in the US unless you happen to get find yourself on a race track. Ride is very acceptable for harshness and impacts. To keep to topic here I think you will find that Buick has emulated these R&H characteristics.

At one time the american public wanted rolly, plush rides but most have tired of the awful handling and have compromised toward the better handling and given up some ride characteristics. Go drive a 30 year old Buick and you will not believe what the public desired at one time. Now all they have to do is convince the buyers to test drive them.

vanman1 · July 2005

Even my parent's LeSabre is quite floaty and the rental Century I drove a few years ago was real bad. I know what you mean though, smooth was in and maybe it wasn't all bad, when you are cruising down the highway it feels great.

imidazol97 · July 2005

>Even my parent's LeSabre

What year LeSabre? How many miles on the struts? Which tires and size does it have? I have an 03 and it's not floaty. I have a 1998 which was soft but had lateral control; new struts at 40K from Monroe fixed a lot of the softness and made it fun to drive even on wavy roads.

62vetteefp · July 2005

'03 was much less floaty than both the pre 2000 LeSabre and the '97 designed -2004 Century. Floatiness is directly related to the dampening of the struts and I am sure the Monroes would have been much more damped than the OEM struts.

Lucerne will be much more tied down than any of the above.

bigunit67 · July 2005

Some of the guys are arguing about the Lucerne facing an uphill battle cause it's an unknown brand, then the retort is "Buick is an unknown brand?".

Both of you, as I see it, have a point. Not everyone pays attention, but in Business Week, USA Today, Smart Money, etc., you can read articles this year about all of GM's problems and how this or that person thinks they should do this or that to fix them. ONE of the things many so-called experts recommend is gutting one or more divisions of GM, with Buick at the top of these lists.

People who are not car nuts like many of us may not actively seek this info out, but it subtly hurts the brand because they absorb this information and it comes into play when they see or hear about new products from Buick. The best way to counter that image, to me, is by really showing the public something. While the LaCrosse is a decent car, above ave even, it's basically a next-gen Regal and the Lucerne looks like the love-child of a caddy and a park avenue.

It's like whenyou tick your boss off at work. To get back in his/her good graces, you really have to put some effort out. I just hope Buick gets that message. They can "exist" while putting out good cars, but they won't steal anyone's market share till they put out GREAT cars again. Where is the 21st century version of the Buick Regal Grand Nat'l?????

My 98 Regal has 123,xxx miles on it...hoping I will want to look at a Buick when I'm ready to let her go to the big car heaven in the sky.

1487 · July 2005

GM didnt do much with the last generation Buicks but they have been updating models more often of late. I wasnt suggesting that it's good practice to not upgrade products. But you were suggesting that the current camry has been around for four years and I was pointing out that the 2005 camry has been updated to be more competitive. I didnt know the camry had stability and SE model when it debuted. That is the first I'm hearing of that but you would know. If you want to predict the future of the lacrosse based on cars like the regal that is fine but I would look at GM's more recent vehicles like the G6, Malibu, Grand prix, CTS or even the midsize SUVs. All have received updated in terms of features and/or models since they debuted. Since we already know GM will have a FWD 6 speed auto in production next year I would think the Lacrosse/Lucerne are major candidates to receive this tranny. When you consider that the GP and Impala are available with 18" wheels it seems likely that the Lacrosse would offer them as well. Navigation is a different story but the GP has offered it since last year so it would be logical for the Lacrosse to receive this feature. I doubt it will ever get HIDs since Gm is adverse to putting them in any non-Caddies.

"the LaCrosse- dont take my word for it, just read.... ANY REVIEW EVER on the car."

Sorry but I dont look to enthusiast magazines to praise any Buick. Those same magazines will criticize a camry for being dull and unsporty but then excuse the car because it's a high quality Toyota. When they review a lacrosse it's a different story and the car is called boring, dull, lame, conservative and worse. There is nothing exceptional about the camry but it is virtually immune to criticism due to the fact that it's a Toyota and it's "bulletproof". When it comes to reviewing Toyotas that's all that really matters. Just for the record, all of the auto mags/internet reviewers praised the Ridgeline as the greatest thing since sliced bread and yet sales have been less than stellar. You cant always take the word of reviews as gospel. With the exception of the 300C, F150 or Mustand I cant think of one domestic product that has gotten universal good reviews from the press and yet many domestic models are popular sellers. If people made purchases based on reviews than the Europeans and Japanes would have about 80% share instead of 35%.

alpha01 · July 2005

None of the comments I made about the LaCrosse's reviews in magazines were made in conjunction with predictions of sales. Yes, I agree- the Ridgeline has received tremendous praise but is selling at a tepid pace. I never said that critical acclaim means success in the marketplace, though from an advertising/marketing standpoint, I would definitely think its easier to achieve.

There are plenty of domestic vehicles that get strong reviews from the experts, ones you didnt name. They're just usually not GMs, though some are- the CTS, Corvette, and Cobalt come to mind, actually.

Toyota is hardly immune from criticism- read edmunds.com thorough comparison of the Camry vs. Accord and Sonata. (The Camry does have a few competitive advantages still.. efficiency, ride/refinement....).

"If people made purchases based on reviews than the Europeans and Japanese would have about 80% share instead of 35%." Again, I never said purchases are made based on reviews. I used the reviews of the LaCrosse to point to its overall execution in terms of its competitors... it simply lags (and is overpriced at MSRP, a fate I hope doesnt befall the Lucerne)

Competitors... the yardstick against which the Lucerne will be measured.... and thats where the vehicle's UPHILL battle ensues.

Not gospel, my opinion, but I think its well backed by reasonability.

~alpha

1487 · July 2005

I was talking about univeral praise, not lukewarm praise. Cars like the CTS, Vette, Cobalt and STS have garnered decent reviews, but with the exception of the vette they have not been considered anywhere near class leading. The CTS has been critized for styling and interior design from it's inception and the STS has been criticized for its interior repeatedly and the Cobalt has been called a great effort for GM but no real threat to "great" small cars like the Civic. Outside of GM I can only think of a handful of domestic vehicles that get praised, the Chrsyler LX cars, the Stang and the F150. Nothing else in Ford or Chrysler's stable is really worth talking about until the Fusion comes out.

As you said the problem with the Lacrosse is it's high MSRP. The Lacrosse sold well during the employee discount program which shows people will buy the car if it offers some value. I dont see how the Lacrosse's ambitious pricing proves that it "lags" in execution. I dont understand what you are basing that argument on at this point. The car has good ergomics, nice fit/finish, a quiet ride and attractive, quality materials but you claim it lags its competitors. It lags them in sales, but I wouldnt say in execution. I dont know when you last sat in an Altima or Camry but I dont find either to be better designed than the lacrosse inside or out.

Hopefully GM will learn something from the lacrosse's recent sales success and price the Lucerne accordingly.

bmwguy1 · July 2005

Although i currently drive an '05 BMW, i have always been a fan of Buicks, considering I grew up with them. Dad always drove a Buick (Skylark, Regal, Park Avenue, Electra). it they seemed like well made, attractive, comfortable cars back in the 70s, 80s and very early 90s.

sort of stopped paying attention to Buicks for a while (especially after seeing the later models just looking like plain cars) until recently when I glanced upon this euro looking car from the back and said "what the hell is that?" looked at the emblem and saw Buick (LaCrosse), i was shocked. the cars are looking much nicer now it seems.

I then decided to research Buick and came upon tons of articles about their current transformation from the "old persons" vehicle to trying to attract younger crowd. I thought it was a joke but then I started to carefully looking inside Buicks (as I drove passed them in my 525i) and took notice that 90% of the time, there was someone who looked over 55 in the car. so it wasnt just a myth, its true.

Now lets just say, from someone who has become a fan of German and Japanese cars over the years, this new LUCERNE strikes me as very interesting. It has the look of a dynamic, modern American car with bits of European flair. It departs from the usual jelly bean shape of Buick's more recent cars, and the interior looks just as plush as my beemer.

OK, so I am sold on Buick's new model. Perhaps I'll buy one as a company car for someone else to drive. But here are a few recommendations for Buick to consider with future releases:

1- Consider navigation style screen inside the vehicle (didnt see that in Lucerne)

2- Make moon/sun roofs standard

3- And for future models, consider a different name than say "Lucerne" which immediately brings to mind jugs of milk and cows.

But as a fan of Buick I will carefully observe how they transform their brand, appeal to younger crowds while retaining their faithful 55+ base, and also create the image of a true American luxury car.

I wont be giving up my BMW anytime soon, but maybe next time around Buick? who knows....

larrymit · August 2005

I've owned a 91 Park Avenue, a 99 Ultra, and now own a 97 Riviera (supercharged 3800). I owned several Olds before these.

I bought a 2004 Toyota Solara convertible and a 2005 Toyota Tacoma pickup. I've been thrilled with the fit and finish, delivery condition, and absolute reliability of both Toyotas. I'm now considering a new Avalon, pending a year or two of shakedown to take care of new model glitches.

I haven't considered a Buick since nothing they offer has excited me since the Riviera. I will take a close look at the Lucerne, though, if it approaches the Avalon in features and quality. It won't have the 3800 engine though. My Riv's 3800 has leaked oil from every possible seal, beginning at about 35,000 miles. Thank goodness for the extended warranty! It sounds like the 3800 to be offered in the Lucerne will not have the supercharger. That's a shame, because a supercharged 3800 is a very nice engine, my leaks aside, with plenty of power.

62vetteefp · August 2005

Please do not make sunroofs standard. I do not want them.

Nav is available for those wanting to put out $2000. Not me.

milk and cows??? Where are you from?

ssmonteman · August 2005

Looking at the new Lucerne, I suddenly felt the need for a nap. In other words, the styling is soooo boring. Not just boring, but very generic also. Many early post compare the looks to that of an Acura, and I agree. How about a new Buick that looks like a Buick, and not everything else thats already out there on the road already. The new Imapala suffers from this also. Very bland and generic. I think the Aveo has more character than these two vehicles.....and thats sad

62vetteefp · August 2005

Just went to the Buick website and took a look. Not much of a picture but it looks good to me. Understated and classy-what Buick should be-not a Monte Carlo for sure!!!!

Sure is nothing wrong with Acura's. The best looking Japanese cars out there. Beat Accord and Camry hands down. Unfortunately they ride like go carts.

ssmonteman · August 2005

Yes, Acura's may be the best looking Japanese cars out there. Which is why if I wanted a Japanese car, I might buy an Acura. But if I want to buy an AMERICAN car, it would be nice to be able to go to a Buick dealership and buy an AMERICAN car. Instead Im still faced with buying a Japanese look alike. Let Japanese car companies build Japanese cars for people who want Japanese cars. American companies should focus on building cars that reflect their traditional American styles for those who want it. Or at least come up with fresh ideas of their own.

Also I absolutey agree that classy describes Buick, or at least it should. But I certainly would not say understated should. Perfect example is the Riviera. When it was first intoduced, it was a huge success and is still a very sought after automibile today and one of the main reasons for that is because in its day, it was flashy and edgy and had a personality all its own. Remember, this is a day when young men in high school dreamed of owning a Buick of all things. What young man under the age of 30 wishes he could own a Buick these days?

imidazol97 · August 2005

For years people have wanted cars that didn't reflect American car heritage because the car mags and CU insisted that only foreign brands were worth buying. Now the Buicks have been in JD's top quality for years and they're doing a little styling and they're criticized for that styling...

As for bland, the Toyota Lexus model has used bland for years and received accolades for that styling and relatively low level of problems. The Lucerne is hopefully matching that graceful understatement. I hope to see one in person soon.

62vetteefp · August 2005

Sorry we disagree on the understated. I mean classic with touches of elegance. chrome highlights, portholes, etc. but not 6' x 1' swatches of chrome rocker moldings. Lexus is understated, 300M is not. Cadillac is not

Riviera was volumptious and sexy, not flashy. Classy curving lines, not edgy. The LaCrosse show car was the same. The LaCrosse production car, also curvy and sporty in the old fashioned way.

Hopefully Buick will start building some of the vehicles they have shown as concept cars. They were beautiful.

roflbo · August 2005

Is there a Lucerne model without the console? I want plenty of legroom and more room in front.
rbohhn

Buick Lucerne

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