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Issue is that DVD-audio had not taken off. Just not selling like they wanted to. I got the DVD audio pitch about a year ago (trying to get us to put DVD audio heads in cars) and while it was great there just are not enough people who care enough to buy the equipment in this world of MP3 music. I have to DVD-audios they gave to me and sould great at home. Of course all I listen to now is XM. My CD player jsut sits there and what was that AM/FM thing?:)
I will still test the car, maybe the mounting, sound dentening and tuning of the 3800 will surprise me. If it at least had a 6-speed transmission or something I may be more hopeful. I hope I'm surprised because I love the look and size of the car.
I have a feeling the 3800 is a goner soon also which makes it's presence in the Lucerne even stranger. Only 3 cars have the 3800 in 2006, the LaCrosse, Lucerne and Grand Prix.
3800 was already in the LeSabre so there was no engineering to put leave it in.
Traditional buyers of Buicks LOVE the 3.8 for many reasons-torque, longevity, etc.
Lucerne is supposedely on a short life time.
They put in a V8 which many buyers will opt for over the supercharged 3.8.
They had to put the 3.8 in something to keep the last module at full production for a few mre years. What better than a Buick for the reasons above. Where else would it go?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I personally think the Lucerne's looks are far better than most Lexus offerings given today. Inside and out. But that's my opinion. You're intitled to your own. It's a touch classic with very modern tones and lines. Very Buick, which I've always liked. According to JDPowers, Buick is only bettered by Lexus in quality, which I attribute to the appearance that most Lexus drivers wouldn't know it if a tire fell off their car while going down the road. Seriously, I think Lexus drivers have to pass an idiot verification test prior to ownership, as they seem to drive worse than most. Don't you agree?
GM in general has had the best advancements of any car maker. But until you own one, you'll never understand. So don't state what you obviously don't know about if you've not experienced the latest GM can and does offer.
I see a lot of Lexuses and I never see them driving badly. Driving badly has nothing to do with what you drive.
Today a guy in an Avalanche was tailgating me at 75mph, does that mean all GM drivers are bad?
GM cars aren't bad, but the only problem is they can sometimes feel cheap, unrefined and lack some key features. They also take a long time to update their cars. The Cavalier wasn't fully redesigned in 10 years, and the GM fullsize trucks haven't been redesigned since 1999. The GM vans look new, but the platform goes back to 1997. The American manufacturers don't update their cars often enough and they fall of buyers radar. Then they need huge discounts to make them sell.
Anyway, about the Lucerne it seems like a great car and will hopefully bring more people into Buick dealers. Can't wait to read the review.
So resale value is the only measure of the quality in a car? I never trade mine for 10 years currently and 150K or more. Do I care what it's worth at 2 years? NO.
BTW, I can get you some stock that has higher value in the market than the real value of the stock; does that make it a better stock?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I fully expect many reviews of the car to be that it doesn't meet the little items that they feel should be in every car or the motors don't suit them because they aren't what that writer thinks should be in the car. The same writer would criticize whatever motor choice had been put in but we're not supposed to figure that out. Or the car doesn't have the $2000 navigation screen that their favorite Hondamobile has in it. Or the car doesn't have RWD so it's worthless as a luxury car.
Prepare for the panning by the "knowing" editors/reviewers. The positive things they say will all be in paragraphs with a negative at the end of each paragraph. That way they can say "I said good things about it" but the influence on the reader will be negative.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
You don't get change you car for 10 years for whatever reason. Other wealthier people who get a new car every 2 years wouldn't want a GM as the resale value would be poor, compared to a Japanese car. You may not care what it's worth after 2 years, but I can assure you that there are others who do.
Today the real quality difference between cars is so small its only for marketing purposes. It really is your luck with the car you buy, whetever make you buy from.
GM really is missing key features on its cars, Ford even more so, but then again, Toyota does not have a 5-6 BILLION dollar heathcare bill, and rediculouse retirenmnet benefits for workers that easily dwarf the rest of the industry. Just look at some wonderful news for GM.
http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0510/10/A01-343339.htm
Toyota does not have many of these problems. Cars are one of the last things America makes. The big reason is we have very high labor costs. The unions only add to the problem, and there removal of nullification could signal the rebirth of US manufacturing. Don't get rid of them, but don't let them kill our industries.
The Lucern is missing some features, and the 3800 is there b/c of union contracts, but you know what... Its amazing that GM did it this good.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
There are some features missing though that should be available on a car in this price range. 6 speed is coming for FWD GM cars soon. Perhaps 2007? They are developing it with Ford. What other omissions do you see?
Toyota is dying? I don't think so, considering they made 12 Billion in profits while the rest of the industry is tettering on the brink of insolvency. I will bet the farm that my 1992 Lexus LS400 will beat anything on long term quality. Believe me I owned two Buicks in the past to make a valid comparison. Anyone can build cars with great Initial quality scores, but the best test is long term..I haven't seen anyone come near Lexus yet. Lexus wins the quality bracket by a 2:1 margin in those surveys.
They also have resale value that Buick can't touch...Couple that with industry leading customer satisfaction rates, fit and finish, excellent dealer service, brand new loaner cars, and cutting edge electronics that actually work. These are all measurable objective categories where Lexus has the edge. Keep in mind Lexus offers an extended warranty to 7 yrs 100K miles. Buick only recently upgraded theirs to 4 yr/50K.
Styling is so-so but no one except Audi and Jaguar really builds anything special these days. I had a Buick Electra and Park Avenue in the late 80's-early 90's. The Electra was a disaster and the Park Ave was reasonable, but outdated. The car started to fall apart after 4 yrs, so I bought a Lexus instead. 13 years later, I have no regrets, the Lexus has been bulletproof.
I had a LaCrosse as a rental recently. It was okay, a evolution of the Buick's I've owned in the past. The cabin materials were nothing special, and I wasn't impressed overall. Considering the price it was an utter ripoff.
I think they did a much better job in the Lucerne. Offering a FWD with a V-8 is a clever marketing move. I don't think anyone else offers that. IF Buick can show better resale values, I'll definitely consider it. It is a sharp looking car that is well priced. I question the wisdom of putting a 1970's era engine in a supposedly modern car..I understand the need to make the car appeal to Buick's customer base, but aren't they trying to grow their sales?
You might complain about the Auto mags all you want, but their opinion matters. Ask Infiniti how much public perception hurt them in 1990 when they went head to head with Lexus. $30,000 is still a good amount of money for a car, so it had better offer all the options the competition does. I'd benchmark it against the Avalon and Acura TL.
SV
Which model was the LaCrosse rental? I would assume it's the base model with the 3800 motor? If you really are used to driving one of the larger Lexuses, I am sure it was a come down.
Your Park Avenue and Electra were from a different era. Let me tell you about my Fords... Talk about your 2002 Park Avenue or your 2004 LeSabre to compare to today's cars. I'll give you that things weren't built as well in the 80s and 90s.
Your purchase of a higher-priced Lexus and finding it reliable and economical in the long term reminds me of a story about a lady buying a higher-priced item for her home or something rather than the cheapest. She said, "I'm too poor to afford to buy cheap. I need something that lasts."
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Well then, let's compare a 2002 Park Avenue to a ES330..You could get a fully loaded ES on the street for for the "starting" price of a Park Ave. Fit and Finish aren't even close. I
I'm comparing the LaCrosse to cars of its bracket, such as the Toyota Camry. A Park Avenue in 02 still retailed for around $40K.I'm making the comparisons based on price. What does a fully loaded LaCrosse sticker for? $32K? That puts it close up against an Acura TL and Lexus ES if anything. Look at the JD Power Ratings for the year 2000. There is a marked difference between the Buick and the Japanese.
Posters here seem to single out Lexus so I gave a return volley. An ES330 ought to hold up just as well as my 1992 LS. And an ES has all of the Lexus advantages I stated in my previous post. The Lucerne will be taking that car dead on. If you expect to compete with Lexus then Buick needs to compete not just on Price, but all the other factors I've listed. You can't argue with the story that the Financials tell. I think a quote from Bill Parcells says it best, "You are what your record says you are."
If anything I do want to buy the Lucerne. It is a well thought out car, but when spending that much money it has to make sense to the consumer. Supporting Detriot is nice, but they've got to build cars that offer the same value, reliability (Which Buick has for the most part) and technology that the imports have.
SV
You also didn't answer my question as to which model LaCrosse.
End of dialogue.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I agree with you though, Toyota is not dying.
Not to disagree but $33k is where the Lexus ES starts. Add a few items and you are over $35k. LaCrosse starts down at $23K and you can get it up over $33k if you get every option, some of which are not available on the ES.
Nav-There seems to be so many that want this feature but with vehicles under $30k they do not sell. Just to expensive at $2000. Go to a Toyota and Handa lot and see what they stock.
I think I had the LaCrosse CX. It was a rental car after all. Still this car stickers at 23K according to the Buick website. I'm comparing it with a Camry that begins at 18.7K. I think it is a fair comparison. Have a look at a Camry and then see where I am coming from. Also the Avalon begins at 26K which is line with the mid range LaCrosse. I see you are an avid Buick fan, but have a look at any review of this car.
I'm sure you can understand that Reliability is one of many aspects in a buyer's decision. It's great Buick has good reliability, but have a look at any JD Power Survey you want comparing a List price Park Ave vs a GS (which also listed around 40-43K at that time). It doesn't matter whether you "could have" bought a Park Ave below list or not. People are going to make their initial judgement on the basis of list price. That is what brings many Mercedes buyers to Lexus..Even though you can negotiate on a S430 listing at 77K it's hard to compete with a LS430 starting at 57K.
Having said all of that, I am a fan of the Lucerne and can't wait to see it in person. They've done a good job on the details, styling, and marketing. It is the first Buick I'm actually excited about. I bought my Electra and Park Ave because they were different, nicely styled, and a pleasure to drive. The resale value and quality issues are what made me look elsewhere. It's clear from all the surveys that Buick is one of the top tier brands in reliability these days..That leaves value.
If anything the Employee Discounts demonstrated to me that the MSRP pricing at GM was out of touch with the marketplace. It's good to see they've been reasonable with the Lucerne. I'd gladly pay $35K for a loaded one.
I'd agree Nav is too pricey for the under 30K bracket. Lexus still bundles it with the Mark Levinson stereo for a 5K package price. It would be nice to have it available, as I think they are doing.
SV
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The Lucerne is a value buy for a near lux full size car. I don't think I can swing a V8 but if they have tuned the 3800 ok, I may go for a base CXL in a couple of years.
But when my wife wanted a "mid-life crisis" car, we bought a 2004 Toyota Solara convertible. The car arrived in perfect condition, is impeccably finished, hasn't had a single glitch in almost 20,000, and is often mistaken for a BMW or a Mercedes (at a distance, at least).
Compare that with my last two Buicks. My Riv (which I love and would like to keep forever) has spouted oil leaks in literally every possible gasket and seal, sometimes twice. My Ultra's transmission needed a rebuild at 35,000 miles, just within the warranty, and suffered trim problems that shouldn't happen in a car of that price level.
The Toyota, by comparison, is the first car I've ever owned that didn't require at least a couple of trips to the dealer to finish the assembly that should have occurred at the factory. I've since bought my son a Toyota truck and am seriously considering an Avalon to replace the Riv. I'm hoping the Lucerne will meet the quality and features of the Avalon, hence my attendance to this board. And I'm willing to wait awhile to see. But my Riv has 105,000 miles and with a reported major supercharger rebuild likely at about 110,000, I can't wait too long.
Please, GM, make me a believer again. I never bought a foreign car before my Solara and would prefer to buy American if I can. But...
Actually, Car and Driver is the only mag that does both an advanced launch technique as well as a stop-light thromp of the go pedal (called the Street Start) and their Avalon Touring hit 60 in 6 seconds flat with the advanced technique, and 6.3 in the Street Start 5-60 test. Even Consumer Reports hit 60 in 6.7 seconds in their Avalon XLS. In both tests, the Avalon did really well with fuel efficiency, so youre right, that is definitely a strong suit.
For the record, you seem to forget that styling is subjective. To date, it seems that many are more than willing to 'contend' with the Avalons styling.
~alpha
Per the report by Anita Lienert (not a GM lover here in Detroit) she was fooled into liking the Lucerne for quietness compared to the lexus. How did it happen? A/B testing was done using microphones and played back thru headphones in a blind test.
Those C&D test numbers were way off for all the cars involved. The fastest I have seen the LAcrosse in any other test was 7.6secs and they had it clocked at 7secs flat. The Maxima was also much faster than anything I've ever seen. They had a bunch of ringers. There is no way a 268hp Avalon is running to 60 only .3 secs slower than a 350hp Charger. I wouldnt expect to see similar test numbers ever again.
When are they actually going to be on the dealer lots?
My parents have a 2004 LeSabre in fact and they have not had 1 problem with it either. Gas and oil changes only.
Are they holding 'em in a corral for a larger release, or are they just not making them yet?
As I would buy it, a loaded CXL V8 with KB6 heated & cooled seats, PCJ XM, 9 speaker system, PA2 17' chrome wheels, PCK power seats, memory, PCI proximity sensors, alarm, remote starter, JL4 StabiliTrak, US9 CD6, with speed compensated volume, AN3 front 40-20-40 seats, and XA7 heated washer fluid, Glacier Blue exterior, and Tuxedo Blue/Shale interior, the invoice price (never pay more) is $32,751.
An Impala LTZ with the 40-20-40 front seat and the CD-6 radio has an invoice price which is $6,057 less, but it has the ugly drooping mufflers and lacks the V8, cooled seats, dimming exterior mirror, rain-sensing wipers, StabiliTrak, automatic climate control, and rear proximity sensors.
Could be pre-order sales.