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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread
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This is just not true. If you drive them back to back, you'd know that the Accord V6 feels significantly more powerful than the 4 cyl.
Sonata :235 HP6000rpm, 226 ft-lbs3500 rpm, average torque=0.065 ft-lbs/rpm
Camry: 268 HP6200 rpm, 248 ft-lbs4700 rpm, average torque = 0.053 ft-lbs/rpm
Accord: 244HP6224rpm, 211 ft-lbs5000 rpm, average torque = 0.041 ft-lbs/rpm
Average torque? It really doesn't work that way. Let's take an example. The Camry makes 248 lb*ft at 4700 rpm, but that is peak torque. These engines have pretty flat torque curves. The Camry probably makes at least 240 lb*ft at 3500 rpm.
Another example is the IS350. Peak torque is rated at 277 lb*ft at 4800 rpm. But the published torque curves show that it makes about 92% (255 lb*ft) of its peak torque at 2300 rpm.
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Overall, I'd rate the Camry V6 as marginally better than the Altima V6, which is marginally better than the Accord V6 and Sonata V6 (tie). But just marginally in all cases. They are all excellent engines.
First of all, I think this has veered way of topic. If we want to dicuss 300+HP engines, everyone needs take these discussions to another thread. A 300+HP engine in a reasonably-priced midsize family sedan is an oxymoron.
And, who in the heck needs it anyway. A 185HP V6 in a car the size of the Kia Optima is plenty of power for any reaasonable human being. My Dodge Grand Caravan only has a 150HP V6 and it's served me very well for a long time, and look at the weight differential between it and an Optima! But then again, I'm not a boy racer-type either.
I find this discussion of high HP engines somewhat superflous, especially in view of ever increasing gasoline prices. Next thing, I suppose we will come across discussions of the 1250HP Bugatti on this thread!
Toyota's latest Camry doesn't seem to be that big of a response to the Koreans - the engineering/tooling probably was started well before the 06 Sonata debuted. That leaves the new Accord as the real chance to show the world how to dominate this sector for a few more years (cause the 06 Accord is wheezing from a 5-6 year old design).
Time will tell. The Koreans may finally decide to stop giving away their Sonata - or they may catch an errant scud from their northern neighbors. That would leave a mark.
Or perhaps, the Sonata with a V-6 is capable of outrunning a Scud. :P
Have you driven the Accord I-4 and V6?
Well, not really. When at higher speeds, I can really tell a HUGE difference in the two engines when I punch it. At higher RPMs is where both engines shine, but the V-6 definitely outshines the 4-cylinder in high-rpm pull, as well as around town grunt. It should, it's nearly 80 horsepower difference.
Do you have a graph of the torque curve for that motor? Otherwise you're guessing; peak torque is just that. Torque at typical driving speeds and motor speeds for leaving stopsigns and stoplights is what most people "feel" when driving the car.
Do you have a link to a torque graph?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I haven't found any graphs for the Camry, but it is a less potent version of the same GR engine.
In many of today's engines, the engine makes nearly the peak torque in the 2xxx range, then slowly creeps up or plateaus.
The misconception here IMO is that neither Toyota nor Honda nor Nissan is seeing an immediate need to respond to Hyundai at all. The sales for all of them are strong and growing ( the Accord is stagnant somewhat as it ages ).
The Sonata serves a good purpose in appealing to the 'under $20K buyer' but so does the New Civic and the ancient Corolla. The other three will continue to serve the $22K-$26K buyers. As long as the midsize market continues to grow then everyone will be happy.
Sonata V6's @ $19K
CamCord 4c's @ $21K
AltCamCord V6's in the $22-$26 range
The misconception is that because the Sonata is well below the other three that something has to be done about it. What if ... they just built vehicles that made people want to pay $24K ( or more ) to buy?
Also this forum is not just for what people find personally important. Since the car makers make V6s in the amount they do, it is relevant to compare them since like I said before, those who buy the V6, BUY IT BECAUSE THEY WANT MORE POWER. If V6s are only 20% of Camcord sales, that is still a heck of a lot of cars.
Some would do just like I did, which it to compare the cars, not the badge.
Hey, how many more "interesting" comparisons am I going to read? People occasionally make comparisons on Sonata vs Civic and Corolla, because they are the same price. They are making comparisons to $31K-$45K cars because they are the same size. Please! You can't have it both ways!
Personally, when I shop for cars, I set a price limit. That's what it all boils down to anyway. Shopping for a car without a price ceiling just never happens. Even rich guys set a price limit. This time around my price limit was a spartan $19K. I shopped around for the biggest, quietest, and most comfortable car I could find within my budget. The safety had to be fair, the quality very good, the styling had to be decent. I was not very optimistic I could get a V6, and delighted when I landed one. I got just about everything I wanted for $400 under budget, OTD. I'm delighted I didn't have to settle for a smaller, less comfortable car.
FYI - Hyundai never gave away its Sonata; just because the car is priced thousands lower than the rest of the class (yet with incredible amount of standard features), that does not equal giveaways. Hyundai is getting a profit (not at Camcord level but still quite healthy) for each Sonata. Borrowing some unforseen events, Hyundai is well within reach of its annual goal of Sonata sales this year (should not have any problem), and that's without counting units on fleet.
It takes time for the public to recognize changes going on, and Toyota's pricing of their new Camry shows they're ceding the lower end of this sector. Honda probably will too. People seem to have more money nowadays tho. Hyundai's not going after. Sonata has minimal appeal to folks with money.
Of course they're giving them away. They're obviously buying market share, because at the same price as a CamCord, not many people would buy them.
Hyundai's 'profit' is what they say it is, not what it really is. Who knows what financial calculation gymnastics one would have to go through to unravel Hyundai financials?
Altima 2.5 : great low-end torque and very good power, nimble handling and very comfortable ride, great sound system, comfortable seats, roomy and just a good all-around drive. Lows: 16.5 mpg on 87 octane, very cheap interior components(arm rest feels like its going to fall off)
Sonata GLS: Very roomy, quiet, high-tactile and visual sensation (everything pleasing to eye and touch), adequate sound system, adequate power, tons of stuff for $17k, manumatic or automatic tranny option, attention to detail(seat belt connection base has cloth on the inside to prevent scratching of center armrest)Lows: cannot get comfortable in drivers seat for 6footer, doesn't feel like 234hp(Altima felt stronger last week), tranny seems to be sapping power, no way this gets 30mph on highway but more like 22. Still not there yet only because of drivetrain. This car is very close but considering its $17k price...WOW!
Does this mean that Lexus and Infiniti are losing money on their vehicles, or that they are merely buying market share? No...
Thus rather than comparing a 'midsized sedan segment' which actually covers the price range from about $15K to over $40K IMO it's more realistic to look at the buying public as dividing itself into 'price segments'.
$15 - $20K buyers
$20 - $25K buyers
$25 - $30K buyers
etc.
This is how we mostly shop anyway, just as you said.
Not knocking the product or company at all. Just don't see them having the sales required to continue.
That is my opinion - your mileage may vary -Loren
-Loren
At present I agree with this completely.
Now at some time down the road it may be more in HonYota's interest to push more sales of the CE and LE I4's in order to maintain volume. This normally occurs in the 3rd or 4th yrs of a cycle. Note that the Gen6 I4 LE didn't change at all from the Gen5. It just added all the airbags standard.
But i give gm credit for there valid attempt, but the ecotec is not as smooth as the cam/cords, sonata, mazda6 4cyl's.
i'll ask all of you camcord owners if truly these cars are worth 3-5 k worth more than the current competitors or even how much a mid size car should be period,because truthfully they aint
with the amount of cost cutting available with better tech, why not give the consumers more value or decrease the prices ?? but you know waht camcord does every year? increase prices of their cars, and ppl actually fall for that
Not as much as it might have been a few years ago, especially since you are talking about the performance "optional" engines. Cobalt and Ion have standard 140-145 hp.
Mazda 3s - 160 hp 2.3L
Dodge Caliber - 172 hp 2.4L
Corolla XR-S - 164 hp 1.8L
Competitive yes, but a lot more? I wouldn't say so. I will give kudos to GM for having a competitive engine without taking the easy road and just adding more displacement.
i'll ask all of you camcord owners if truly these cars are worth 3-5 k worth more than the current competitors or even how much a mid size car should be period,because truthfully they aint
with the amount of cost cutting available with better tech, why not give the consumers more value or decrease the prices ?? but you know waht camcord does every year? increase prices of their cars, and ppl actually fall for that
Whoa there, I think you are lumping a lot of people into the "stupid" category that ought not be there.
First of all, VALUE isn't always feature per dollar. If you place VALUE in having the most features for the least money, then the Sonata is the best VALUE for YOU.
It isn't the best VALUE for me, however. Peronsally, with $21k to spend, I could've had the V-6 Sonata over my EX I-4 Accord, but I put more VALUE in the fact that the interior doesn't feel like it hasn't been through cost-cutting measures, meaning it meets the same fit and finish standards of vehicles more than double the price. The Hyundai, to me, felt like what it was... a screaming bargain, but nothing special relative to anything else in the class.
I also knew I wanted the most fuel-efficient car that would fit my 6'4" frame, which is why I didn't bother shopping V-6s that compromised my other wants/needs.
Value is relative as well as subjective. You and I value different things, and there's nothing wrong with that, but it should be noted that I bought my Accord because it was the best value for ME. I got the best interior (to me) out of any other car costing the same, and some costing more, as well as the all-important moonroof and 6-disc changer that i wanted. All for the right price, with GREAT economy, and plenty of room. For ME, the Accord was the value leader.
On the other hand when im in the Sonata the interior, while it wont win any style contest, its very functional, cohesive, and no nonsense. What makes the Sonata feel expensive to me is its equipment levels for the price. I would gladly pay what cam/cord owners pay, because by the time you outfit any vehicle with as much equipment as hyundai stuffs into the sonata, youll have a much higher price than even the cam/cords.
So luckily in todays competitive midsize market we have lots of viable choices, Because remember no car is one size fits all. So it just depends on what your looking for overall.
So as much as I wanted to give good ole Chevy a chance ( i had an S10 Ext Cab that was great) it just wasn't a feel that I wanted to own for the next few years.
I think a huge majority of buyers has the same opinion. I still pull for Chevy, but they should stick to trucks.
OOOPS! I just realized when I was filling up with gas that there was only one tail pipe coming out of the rear bumper and THIS WAS A 4-CYLINDER AND NOT A V6. I just figured it was a V6 and that is why I commented that it didn't feel as strong as the Altima. Cuz it is about 14 hp less. This being a I4 I have to say it is quite strong.
The Accord EX V6 is the best car you can get for under $30,000. The Sonata isn't even close.
Sure, my 03 V6 Accord cost $5,000 more than my 92 EX Accord did. But it's a lot more car too. The 92 Accord only had one airbag, no power seats, 4cyl engine, no leather, and it was a smaller car. The new Accords are worth more. Hyundai tells you their car is as good as the Accord and Camry, and you fall for that? Well, it aint, like you say.
Good part of it is, you can get the EX V6 for around $24,000, not the $30k that many people think you have to pay to get into an Accord.
Lets just cut the profit talks down, cuz we are consumers and need to worry about our end, not how great honda is profiting us. You know i hate to throw this onto this discussion but why does camcord have such ridiculous finance and lease rates if they profit so much anyways?? Its just not rite
Y'all can keep your profit/business talk, and in fact, might find more people to share your views with in the News and Views Discussion forum...
Yes, in compacts, a Cobalt, especially the base model, has a lot of torque for the money. Guess it is the most for cars under $13K, unless I am missing something. Once you get into the $16k to $22k range, I just don't see the value in those cars - but everyone sees it differently, and thus is life.
What about the Elantra for 2007? Will is still be classed as a compact, or is it now into the smaller mid-sized car class?
EPA is now classing it as a mid-size. And is the Sonata really a full sized car now?
I am not even sure which is the better sedan out there under 30K, just because they are all very competitive and each excel in respective areas. That said, for you to say "the Accord is the best car you can get for under 30K" is an overstatement - maybe for you, but defn. not true for everyone. The sentence should have been:
"The Accord EX V6 is the best car for me under $30,000."
"Sonata isn't even close" - maybe in your ignorant world.
Imagine what you'd have to pay for a Honda Accord if it was the only mid-size sedan on the market. $50K? $75K? $100K+?!?
Frankly I'm pleased at all the choices available in today's automotive world. IMO, it's very rare to find a car that does everything perfect at a price that makes everyone happy.
I think you guys should be thankful for the wide selection of mid-size sedans available to the new car shopper. Sure, it may make for a difficult decision, but in the end everyone wins with better products being produced by the car makers.
Now, who's ready for a group hug and a round of "Kumbaya"?
:P
I said no such thing nor made any such reference.
The Accord may be the best car in this comparo in your opinion (and I respect that), but for many other car buyers it is not. That's why COMPETITION IS GOOD!
It does have a fine interior, very good engine, reliability on its side
but is it the quietest ? (no the sonata is)~ is it the roomiest? the best value?? does it handle the best(no that goes to the mazda 6)
you get the picture?? If the best is the best u gotto be best in 10 out of 12 catergories and the accord is a nice overall appointed mid size car but it surely isnt the clear winner 10 out of 12 important midsize categories, in fact not even 6 out of 12.
IF you can prove me otherwise i will say it is the best under 30 k, otherwise please make sense
I wouldn't necessary say this statement is true. I've driven most of the midsize cars discussed in this thread, including the Accord and Camry. The Accord has far too much road and wind noise from the passengers side door (in 4 samples) than I desire. The Camry was much quieter in both areas, but lacked in handling compared to the Accord. Hence, I began looking at the Sonata, and it was quieter than either the Accord or Camry.
Thus, I'm seriously considering a 2007 Sonata. I wouldn't necessarily say that "we're folks with money," but we do have a six figure plus income. Regardless what Hyundai's marketing targets, I will buy the Sonata, not on price, but overall quality and bang for the buck.
The Camry model that would beat the Accord V6 is probably over $30,000.