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Lincoln MKS

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Comments

  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Obviously the 270 hp (hopefully 280 before it goes production) FWD model won't be very sporty, especially given the weight and size.

    Also remember the Twin Force MKS was designed and planned BEFORE the MKR and a new RWD platform was in the works.

    I think having a MKS w/AWD and 350 hp TF V6 AND a 400 hp V8 MKR would be the best of both worlds.
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    I think Lincoln has done a good job of managing expectations for the MKS. They have tons of information on their website and in press releases. They talk a lot about technology and luxury but the the term "sport" or "sport sedan" never comes up. It is very clear where this car is aimed.

    It will be interesting to see what the enthusiast press makes of this when it is road tested and what they compare it with. My guess is that they will be pretty tough on it but that doesn't mean there won't be buyers.

    To your last point of taking forever to come to market, I totally agree. Back in the early part of the decade when the the D3 got the green light, one would have expected that they could have started working on a Lincoln version to be introduced within a few months of the 500/Montego. It is not like they had anything else in the pipeline for Lincoln. When the MKS finally hits the market, it will be a much better car than it would have been if introduced in 2006, but it will still be lacking in the engine department, IMO.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Obviously the 270 hp (hopefully 280 before it goes production) FWD model won't be very sporty, especially given the weight and size.

    Apparently I was being too optimistic on the hp. It's 270 - period. And while it does appear to be tuned for more torque at lower rpm it seems that the engine developers simply haven't had enough time to wring out all the performance potential of the 3.7 yet.
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    Any idea why they would have the "premium recommended" line on the specs from Media Ford?

    Horsepower (Preliminary Data) 270 @ 6,250 rpm
    Torque (Preliminary Data) 265 @ 4,250 rpm
    Fuel 87 Octane (Premium Recommended)
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Not really. Those numbers have to be for 87 octane (if you compare them to the 3.5L on 87) so you'd think if the engine was tuned to take advantage of premium then the numbers would be higher and they'd be advertising the higher numbers even though they require premium. Doesn't make sense to recommend premium but advertise the 87 power ratings.

    Could just be a typo.
  • theman123theman123 Member Posts: 170
    I was wondering ? we all know when Lincoln Unveiled the MKS at the LA auto Show they said people could go online and build, price and even place an order for the Lincoln MKS. I would imagine that the number would be pretty low considering that the car is not even out yet. But, Has anybody heard anything about the numbers of Lincoln MKS have been ordered. Also, what's people's general perception of the MKS outside of Edmunds ?

    Thanks
  • keystone2k9keystone2k9 Member Posts: 25
    I doubt it's anything significantly large. I notice a lot of people, including myself, would rather wait for th twin turbo that gets more power and torque, 300+ HP. I would imagine that when that comes out, that's when the MKS should be getting more of a roll on in sales.
  • peetiedogpeetiedog Member Posts: 37
    I worked the Audi display at the San Francisco Int'l Auto Show near the end of November. The Lincoln display was to our immediate left, Mercedes to our immediate right, and Lexus immediately in front of us. Right at the leading edge of their display (immediately across from Audi) was their rotating display with the new MKS on it. Our Audi R8 was the the most photographed car at the show, but the new Lincoln MKS drew almost as much attention as our all new Audi S5 on display immediately adjacent to it; so much so that I had to go over and take a good long look at it, and even queried many of the people visiting our display who had just visited the MKS display. I've gotta tell you, I was impressed with what I saw; much more impressed than I was with the Lexus GS350 or Infiniti M35. I wouldn't say I performed anything close to a scientific survey', but nearly everyone whom I asked about their opinion of the MKS had very favorable reviews. We also have a BMW store, so I'm very familiar with the Audi and BMW product. I can safely say, it's not quite a BMW 5 Series or Audi A6 competitor. BMW and Audi are more enthusiast's or driver's cars, there's something different about them that goes down to the DNA level. But a lot of the so called 'luxury' brands that make more of a rider's car (e.g.: Lexus, Acura, Mercedes, Infiniti, etc.) had better take note, this MKS is a major step forward for Lincoln. They may have a legitimate competitor to the GS350, M35, and even the M/B E350. To me the styling and silhouette is vaguely similar to all of the afore mentioned, and may be poised to give them a run for their money. The MKS appears to be priced from $7k to $12k less than their apparent competitors, which is a good start, and Ford seems to be doing a lot better job with quality than they used to. Their interiors (though still not quite up to Audi standards) are head and shoulders above GM and Chrysler, and for that matter are pretty much on par if not marginally better than their Japanese competition. The MKS also has some neat stuff, like THX II 600 watt 14 speaker sound system, Keyless combination entry, 20" wheels (on a non-performance sedan!?!?!) and SYNC voice-activated entertainment/communications system. The only things the MKS really suffers from is lack of breeding, poor corporate image, and power & performance. I appears as though the lack of power will soon be handled by the coming 'Twin-Force' engine option. If Lincoln puts some money and engineering knowhow into the suspension and platform dynamics, they might have a real winner on their hands; and then 'Look Out Infinity, Cadillac and Mercedes'. It wouldn't hurt for Lincoln to go ahead and build an image car like the MKR. Not only do I believe it would sell well, but it would bring positive attention to the rest of their line-up, which is also pretty good as well. The best move they made was to stop trying to catch and out-produce GM. They can become more of a world-class producer and even more, a world-class performer with products like the MKS, MKR, Twin-Force, and SYNC.

    I don't think we at Audi and BMW have a lot to worry about from Lincoln just yet, but if they keep moving in the direction they seem to moving in, they bear watching. Lincoln! Who'd a thunk it! Even the dead can come back to life, I guess they call it 'resurection'. :surprise:
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    The only things the MKS really suffers from is lack of breeding, poor corporate image, and power & performance. Those are some pretty big "only" things. Plus, its interior is NOT superior to or even on a par with the new Cadillac CTS. Like you, I think it will sell. There are lots of customers for "riders" luxury cars and it should hold its own in that crowd.
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    I have only seen the pictures of the interiors of the MKS and the CTS so I can't compare them directly. However, based on the pics, I think the MKS holds its own quite well. I don't like the pop-up nav screen on the CTS. I much prefer it built in to the dash - just looks more integrated to me. Others may disagree.

    Some will be attracted to a "luxury" car because of expressive styling, "surprise and delight" features, and technology. It looks like the MKS hits the mark on those things. Others will look for reputation, driving dynamics and performance in their luxury car. As you point out, that is where the MKS suffers.

    I think the D3 platform is a good foundation for a luxury car that is designed for comfort, quiet, and room. My biggest concern is the somewhat pedestrian base engine. The upcoming twin turbo (Twinforce name will apparently not be used) will solve that problem but it will be coming too late, IMO.

    Based on the power ratings of the base 3.7 and the weight of the MKS, the car will likely perform very similarly to a Taurus. That is quite good for a mainstream family sedan but it falls short of what a luxury car should offer, IMO. It is not quite up to the levels of an ES350, Avalon, Buick Lucerne V8, Cadillac, or many others. Will the target buyer notice or even care? Many probably will not. I know it makes me less enthusiastic for the MKS than I otherwise would be, though.
  • theman123theman123 Member Posts: 170
    "I've gotta tell you, I was impressed with what I saw; much more impressed than I was with the Lexus GS350 or Infiniti M35. I wouldn't say I performed anything close to a scientific survey', but nearly everyone whom I asked about their opinion of the MKS had very favorable reviews."

    "I don't think we at Audi and BMW have a lot to worry about from Lincoln just yet, but if they keep moving in the direction they seem to moving in, they bear watching. Lincoln! Who'd a thunk it! Even the dead can come back to life, I guess they call it 'resurection'. "

    What !?!?!?!?!!?!!?!?!?!!!! :surprise: :surprise: I can't believe an Audi/BMW employee/fan/whatever would be slightly impressed with an American car, especially a Lincoln !!!! I always thought that they are all 100% anti-domestic when it comes to there views of cars. I might have been wrong about the people in Cali. :blush:

    Hey Edmunds an Audi Fan/Employee has a higher opinion of Lincoln than you do !!!!!!

    "and Ford seems to be doing a lot better job with quality than they used to. Their interiors (though still not quite up to Audi standards) are head and shoulders above GM and Chrysler, and for that matter are pretty much on par if not marginally better than their Japanese competition."

    I can sleep easy tonight. :)
  • savethelandsavetheland Member Posts: 671
    and hello subcompacts. After President Bush signed new bill I am afraid to tell you that it is the last opportunity for you to buy a big powerful car (even though MKS is not such a big after all). Buy new Taurus, Sable and MKS while you have opportunity and supply last. In near future Fusion/Milan/MKZ will be considered as full size cars and Focus will become mainstream midsize sedan with 1.6L engine. Bright future is ahead of us. Thank you Mr. President and Congress, you did great job! We elect you again, and again and again.

    Oh wait, California sets even stricter 44 mpg standard effective 2016 - thank you California - as usual you blaze the trail for rest of us! Congratulation fellow Californians now you can finally replace your BMWs and Porsches with Minis and Smarts, isn't it what you wanted?
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    That is simply not true. There are all sorts of ways that mpg can be improved without decreasing the car size or comfort level. But it will cost more. There are several proposals already for luxury cars that will meet this standard. The Minis and smarts will be offering 100 mpg soon enough. And that will offset to some degree the bigger and thirstier ones. Heck, the MKS twinforce 400+ hp MKS will be getting close to 30 hwy mpg, once they sort it out.

    Besides, look at Europe. Gas there costs two to four times as much as here. The cars themselves are more expensive, and they are highly taxed. Yet there are now more big an powerful vehicles there than there have ever been.

    Reminds me of when the first serious pollution standards went into place. Car engines were choked of real power for a few years, as those standards went into effect awfully fast. But within 15 years, engines were not only much cleaner, but more powerful and efficient as well. Relax. Besides, no one is going to take your Corvette ZR1 away. Keep it up and keep it tuned, if all this scares ya.

    People will still drive what they want, but now there will be a lot more choices for those of us who would actually like to drive a high mpg vehicle. More hybrids and more (powerful) diesels. Start-stop, cylinder deactivation, brake energy recycling, direct injection will all become standard things. Prices for all the tech will come down, as these standards will take almost a generation to go into full effect. There is no problem. None.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    "There is no problem. None."

    Are you serious?

    Line up here behind gregg to have Nancy Pelosi design your next car. Cause that's what you're advocating.
  • theman123theman123 Member Posts: 170
    I agree with everybody else that it's not the end of the world just because that the government is pushing for a higher fuel economy standard. Enough about that what do you all think about this article that I found on Car and Driver about lincoln getting a version of the Flex or fairlane crossover.

    Lincoln to get a version of the Flex crossover
  • peetiedogpeetiedog Member Posts: 37
    Yeah, you're right, those are some pretty big "only" things. The Cadillac CTS is a pretty nice car, no doubt. It's definitely the best thing that Cadillac makes. I am impressed with how Cadillac has turned their ship around. But I've got to tell you, Cadillac has a very long way to go, when it comes to quality. You can take a couple very strong engines and some pretty good suspensions, and stick them in a bunch of cars, then poke your chest out and shout "I'VE ARRIVED! But as far as I'm concerned that's nothing but an empty bellow.

    Look. If I had to own a GM product other than a Corvette, it probably would be a CTS. I'd buy a Corvette, but I wouldn't buy a CTS. For all it's strengths, it is just not bolted together as well as I would like. And for not much more money, you can get a 'Genuine' German high performance sedan. CTS: good effort on Cadillac's part to compete on the world stage, but they've got to learn how to bolt them together better. I am an American, not a German or a Japanese; and I applaud Cadillac, as I do Lincoln. I actually want to see them improve and not get their blocks knocked off every time they enter the ring, there's no patriotic 'pride' in that. But, when it comes to bolting their cars together, Ford is doing a much better job than GM. It's even gotten to the point where Consumer Reports (who are unabashedly Japanese car lovers), have even come to the conclusion that they can no longer deny Ford's quality gains. The CTS's interior is very nice, as Cadillacs go; but the Lincoln interiors on whole are superior to the Cadillac interiors. I had the opportunity to sit in the MKS at the San Francisco Int'l Auto Show, I don't know if you've had that opportunity yet. Even though it was a pre-production mule, and I was able to find some flaws that'll probably be worked out on the production models, what I saw thoroughly impressed me, given the finished product quality of some of the other Lincoln products (Navigator, MKX, and MKZ).

    I don't know that I would buy the vanilla version of the MKS, but I might consider the twin-turbo version coming. Honestly, I would never consider buying the CTS. Too many quality flaws for their price point. If you're a Cadillac lover, God Bless You! I'm not going to get into a dog fight with you about that subject, I don't care enough about the competition between Lincoln and Cadillac to engage. I work with Audis and BMWs all day every day, and see my fair share of Cads, Benzs, Lexs and Lincolns. When it comes to me spending my own money, I'll stick with Audi and BMW, and posssssiiiibbbly an MKS Bi-Turbo. :surprise: Ooops, did I say that? ;):blush:
  • peetiedogpeetiedog Member Posts: 37
    I have seen and sat in the MKS pre-production mule at the S.F. Int'l Auto Show. Even though it wasn't finished off as well as it will be in the production version, it was a great indication of what Lincoln is doing with the car. Also, all you need do is look at the workmanship on most of the other newer Lincoln products. They are really doing a good job imitating Audi. And as I'm sure most people know, Audi is the standard by which all other manufacturers interiors are judged. I've seen better interiors that in the new Lincolns, but not at their price point. I looked at the CTS even harder than the MKS, as it is a final production model, and it has been receiving a lot of positive press lately. Especially since it's supposed to be more of a BMW, Audi, and Benz competitor. I do after all want to know what my competition is doing. Well, quiet is kept, while a very nice car, it's not all that it's being made out to be. Nice interior, yes; but I think lincoln does a better job with interiors than Cadillac does, and Lincoln's bolting them together better than Cadillac as well.

    You know, the Lexus GS350 (not the ES350) and the M35 are more of a direct competitor to the MKS, along with the Lucern and even the Audi A6. And while not quite matching up equally (and the jury's still out on that), I've gotta admit, at the price point they're coming in at, that MKS is gonna be one helluva value. Yeah, the car is very heavy, and on paper the performance numbers don't look very strong, but you don't drive paper, you drive the iron. I know for example that while the Audi A6Q 3.2 V6 (255 hp @ 6500 rpm / 243 lb-ft @ 3250 rpm) is a pretty heavy car, and doesn't have the strongest hp/torque numbers, it drives stronger than it's numbers would indicate. And you're right, I think the MKS will perform sufficiently well enough to satisfy most of the audience it will appeal to. But like you, I would have to wait for the Twin-Turbo to really have any chance of getting excited about this car.
  • peetiedogpeetiedog Member Posts: 37
    Yeah theman123. I couldn't believe it myself. There are not a lot of American cars that impress me, and Lincoln of all nameplates. Will wonders never cease? I wouldn't quite say that Audi and BMW nuts are 100% anti-domestic, at least not the Cali group. We too are Americans after all. And somewhere deep inside of us, the flame of patriotism still burns. Most of us want to see Ford, GM, and Chrysler, or some combination of the same, do well. The truth is, the American manufacturer pretty much created their own hell. But when we put our minds to it, we Yanks can do most anything we set our minds to. And with a measure of pride, albeit suppressed, I think Lincoln is finally waking up and at least trying to do what they need to do to compete.

    Hey those folks over at Edmunds are human too, they're entitled to make a mistake every once in a while.

    And I'm glad you can sleep easy tonight. Sleep well my friend, all's well in the land of the free and the home of the brave new Lincoln. :)
  • peetiedogpeetiedog Member Posts: 37
    You're right theman123, it's not the end of the world. It's happening all over the world. Technologies will be developed, and consumer appetites and pocketbooks will adjust, and there will always be a set of wheels available to make your blood boil with excitement. Besides 2020 is thirteen years from now and technologies are being developed faster than in the past. Just look at where we were and how far we've come from just thirteen years ago, in 1994. I'm optimistic that what man can conceive, man can achieve. But only time will tell.

    I don't know about Lincoln getting a version of the Flex. All the luxury makes are moving more and more into the SUVs and Crossovers. I guess it just depends on their execution. Will they do it right? Or will they get cheap and do a thinly disguised, rebadged clone of the Flex, by hanging a big grill and a bunch of chrome on it. I'm not too optimistic about a Lincoln version. Only because I fear they will MUCK it up. But then again, Lincoln's surprised me once already with that MKS. Who knows, maybe they'll do it right. The one thing I do know, is that they really need to give the MKR the go-ahead. That car is a real winner. They could actually make that car if they wanted to. If they did, and powered it right, Lincoln could be well on their way to putting the shine back on the Lincoln star. I think that's what Lincoln needs; the MKZ and MKX were good first steps. The MKS is a great big step, and the Lincoln Flex could be as well. But that MKR, if Lincoln makes it, would be a giant leap forward for Lincoln.

    But what do I know? I'm just a peddler of BMWs and Audi's who stumbled into this chat room.
  • fsmmcsifsmmcsi Member Posts: 792
    The new Genesis is what the MKS should have been - rear wheel drive, V8, loaded with fancy features, and (from the photos) excellent looks. As I indicated some time ago, I was looking forward to the MKS, but then upon seeing it at the LA Auto Show, and now comparing it to the Genesis, think it will be another car like the Volvo S80 (see the most recent Consumer Reports as just one example of how the S80 does against the competition).
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    The new Genesis is what the MKS should have been - rear wheel drive, V8, loaded with fancy features, and (from the photos) excellent looks

    I don't think anyone here would disagree. But that doesn't make the MKS bad, or wrong. Lincoln's current demise was caused by years of mismanagement (in PAG, out of PAG, out to California, back to Detroit, in Europe, out of Europe) and by the lack of corporate investment in RWD platforms.

    Given that the only real option available to the engineers was the D3 - what would you have done differently? We know the styling was locked in before the MKR was conceived so they only had time to incorporate the grille, but they still get credit for using unique sheetmetal.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Or will they get cheap and do a thinly disguised, rebadged clone of the Flex, by hanging a big grill and a bunch of chrome on it.

    It's been widely reported that the MKT (that will be the name according to insider reports) will be even more different from the Flex than the MKS is from the Taurus. Not just unique sheetmetal but drastically different styling inside and out. Supposedly the rear hatch is really different. This type of vehicle is a must for Lincoln to keep the folks who want to downgrade from a Navigator/Escalade to a CUV with better fuel economy and ride but still has 3rd row seating. It will also serve as a stepup from the MKX (which should get unique styling, a hybrid and some of the MKS techno-goodies in the next 1-2 years). We'll see at least a concept version of the MKT before the auto show season ends in April.

    And the RWD V8 MKR is coming - rumors suggest sooner than was first thought. Which implies they've found a way to do it on a current platform rather than wait for a new global RWD platform to be developed from scratch. Could be an existing Aussie platform, reworked Mustang platform or possibly a D3 converted to RWD - that rumor has persisted for several months including a RWD D3 based Explorer replacement.

    2008 will tell us where Ford is headed and we'll finally get to see some of the outputs of Fields/Mulally. I like what I've heard and what I've seen so far.
  • peetiedogpeetiedog Member Posts: 37
    Ditto!!!
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    MKT?

    Bllleeeccccchhhhh. err errr errrrr yyyuuuukkkk.

    Sorry, lost my lunch on that one.
  • peetiedogpeetiedog Member Posts: 37
    That's good to hear. I hadn't heard the MKT, but I did hear that there was going to be a more significant difference from the Ford variant than one would normally expect. But when you say 'drastically different styling inside and out', I wonder how drastic it could be. Typically, everything between the A pillar and the C pillar (in the case of this 2 box design, the D pillar) is usually too expensive for most manufacturers to really alter, save creases, beltlines and door skins. And given Ford's financial situation right now, one would think that they probably would not expend those kinds of funds. But they can do a lot fore of the A pillar, the rear facia, and door skins. And of course the world is wide-open when it comes to the interior redesigning, engineering tweaks, and techno-goodies.

    The MKR has to be RWD, and has to be V8, anything short of those two things would be a massive blunder. I've heard rumors of sooner than later as well, but nothing locked in yet. A RWD conversion of the D3 platform can have engineering challenges and would be expensive. A new RWD platform from scratch would be even more expensive. Again, given Ford's financial limitations right now neither of those scenarios seems likely. A re-worked Mustang platform is probably the cheapest answer, but also the more restrictive, given that platforms flexibility limitations. The Aussie platform is a good one and already exists, plans are already in place to re-work that platform anyway, and it can more easily be widened (not just lengthened), which would allow for a much wider range of vehicle applications. So spending a little extra on that re-working might be the best alternative anyway. Ford would just have to figure out how best to increase the production volume and logistics, etcetera.

    You're right about one thing though. I believe 2008 will be the year that will tell us where Ford is heading. I to like what I've seen and heard from Ford so far. I guess it's true what they say, 'Neccessity is the mother of invention'. Ford had to adapt or die, as a result they had to throw a little caution to the wind and take some chances. It hearkens back to the early-80's. Chrysler was going through a federal government bail out, American Motors had just gone belly-up, and Ford was on the ropes and sinking fast. Chrysler launched the Caravan/Voyager minivans and Ford launched the Taurus/Sable, both cars arguably saved their respective companies. But neither would have been produced had the economics been different. Well, here we are again! You'd think that these guys would have learned some lessons. I think the Flex, MKS, and MKR could very well be Ford's new saviors. I sure hope so. It's an American Pride thing.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    Typically, everything between the A pillar and the C pillar (in the case of this 2 box design, the D pillar) is usually too expensive for most manufacturers to really alter, save creases, beltlines and door skins.

    Actually, "usually too expensive for most manufacturers" is misstating reality, except largely for recent Ford practices. And that is changing with them too, thankfully. The MKS and Taurus share none of those things you say are typically shared. The roof, glass, windshields, door pillars, everything is altered, even though they are based on the same architecture.

    Other manufacturers have been able to do this differentiation for years. Look at the Dodge Calibur and Jeep Patriot. Same vehicle but they do not share windshields, door frames, roofs, hatch, nothing exterior. And they are mere economy models. Look at the vast difference in sheet metal, profiles, door frames, etc. among the Impala, Grand Prix, and LaCrosse. Or the Lucerne and the Caddy DTS. Or the Pontiac G6 and the previous generation Malibu Maxx or the 08 Malibu. Even the Buick Enclave and Saturn Outlook share little in the way of exterior metal. Hyundai and Kia comparable models have gotten away from such obvious sharing of sheet metal too. Your own Audi A3 and VW Golf, though the same platform, share nothing on the exterior.

    Lincoln can and will do this too from now on. Mercury will be left as the only full clone division, and you know how little respect (and sales) Mercury has been getting lately, in spite of styling that is probably better than the comparable Ford and high reliability. It has become a nothing division, and Lincoln had been on that road.

    Lincoln is now backtracking toward Lincoln-ness. Remember, even though the Crown Vic and Town Car are the same underneath. they have always shared not one exterior panel, not even the windshields are the same. This is how it must be for Lincoln to have that special presence that will serve it so much better than products like the MKZ (which if Ford hadn't been so strapped for putting out anything, would have made a terrific Mercury)..
  • professorkprofessork Member Posts: 1
    I recently had the chance to sit inside an MKZ and MKX to really check out the fit and finish of each vehicles interior, and I came away with an impression that was nothing short of appalling. The MKZ suffers from too much hard plastic, especially the center console with the exposed cup holders, as well as too much silver plastic for my taste. The MKX interior left me with a worse impression, since I was expecting more from it after believing it looked nice in photographs. There was hard plastic in that interior, and surprisingly enough, the separate hood that covers the gauge cluster that appears to be stitched leather is actually hard plastic with faux stitching (think Saturn Aura door panels). The seats in that car felt somewhat cheap as well, and overall, that interior does not belong in a $35,000+ luxury crossover, just as the interior of the MKZ has no business being inside a luxury sedan starting at $30K. In comparison, I sat inside a 2008 Hyundai Sonata (I'm in South Korea, btw), and was much more impressed with its' interior than what was inside the pair of Lincoln's. The interior was much more aesthetically pleasing, with more soft touch materials on the dash and door panels, much better looking faux wood, quality plastics; and even though there were some silver plastics/hard plastics on the center stack/console, the overall feeling of high quality was there inside that $22,000+ family sedan, and was definitely more impressive than the $30,000+ MKX and MKZ.

    This brings me to what I want to ask: Does the MKS have a good enough interior to battle the big boys? In Lincoln's unveiling, they kept on stressing the use of top grade materials for the interior, however, some in the automotive press claimed that the interior was good, but not as spectacular as Lincoln's claims would have you believe. Has anyone here had the chance to check out the pre-production model at the L.A. Autoshow? What were your feelings about the interior, and how do you think it will compare to the likes of the CTS, B8 A4, C-Class, as well as some lower priced competitors in the mid-sized segment like STS, 6-cylinder 5er/A6/GS, as well as the upcoming Hyundai Genesis? I certainly believe the Hyundai Genesis will be the MKS's biggest threat and most compared to competitor, since they have the projected pricing undercutting the MKS, the right luxury features (xenon headlights, RWD, adaptive cruise control, navigation with 'i-Drive', Infinity 5.1 surround sound system, 300 HP V6/ 380 HP V8, etc), and from what I've seen done to the 2008 Sonata's interior, the Genesis WILL have a high quality interior. The MKS has a few things going for it, such as a luxury name plate (even though there is little to no brand equity behind that Lincoln badge), available AWD, and the twin-turbo V6 that will be delayed up to a year after the MKS launch (yet another lost opportunity for a stellar product launch). However,I think the interior will make or break the MKS, and if it is just another typical example of Ford complacency with yet another Ford interior stuffed inside a Lincoln vehicle, the MKS will certainly fall in the shadow of its new competition for years to come.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    The Genesis and MKS will not be cross shopped much. The Genesis is a rear drive sporting sedan that is more likely to go up against Infiniti, or even BMW for those looking for both a bargain and good dynamics.

    The MKS is like a Town Car...no sporting pretentions but rather more soft coddling luxury. Plus it is a much bigger barge than the Genesis, is front wheel drive, taller, and overall more sedate. It may bring in a few younger buyers than Town Car did, but it won't appeal to many Genesis shoppers.
  • cowbellcowbell Member Posts: 125
    Ahh, the hard plastic argument again. Have you looked at the center stacks of the MKZ's competitors price wise?

    Acura TL: Hard plastic!! Shiny, hard plastic even!!
    image

    Lexus ES 350: Oh, my God! Hard plastic trim!!!
    image

    If you look for the hard plastics, they're in ALL cars at this price point.

    As for aesthetics, that is completely personal, but when I look at the Sonata and the MKZ, the MKZ has clean, coherent style, while the Sonata looks like three different people designed the center stack, but never talked to each other. The HVAC controls, the vents, and the radio controls all look like they were hacked in from different cars.
    image
    image
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    First off, this is the MKS forum, isn't it.

    Secondly, of course all cars have hard plastics in their interiors. I think you miss the point. Hard plastic is expected around controls, buttons, radios, etc. However, when you touch a door panel and encounter hard plastic, that feels more like rental machine than luxury car. Ditto for points on the dash board and console that are soft touch on higher level cars. You cannot compare this sort of feel from photos.

    Additionally, the Sonata is not a near luxury car, but if you look at the 2008 interior (much improved) it could give that impression.

    Anyway, don't be so defensive. The MKZ (dumb name) was a good stop-gap effort from what was a dying division. In a better world, it would have made a terrific mid-size Mercury. I think you'll see a completely revamped and improved interior, more akin to the MKS, in 2009.
  • peetiedogpeetiedog Member Posts: 37
    To a large degree you are right in what you're saying. What I am saying is that the most expensive part of the car to change is the part between the A pillar and the C or D pillars, and that too often manufacturers choose to message the face end and [non-permissible content removed] end of the cars and call them re-designed. Ford is probably the biggest culprit of that, especially lately, but most others have engaged too heavily in it as well. Yes the platform can be the same, and most of the tooling between the pillars can be the same as well (under the skin). But depending on how much money a manufacturer is willing to spend, even on just the skin, can often determine the perceived differences from the lay vantage point. Ford has tried to get by on the cheap for a long time. It's about time they put some more of their precious few resources into making some of their new products, like the MKS, more distinctive. It is either that or die a slow death.

    For Mercury to survive, it too will need a little more massaging between the pillars as well, to differentiate it from it's Ford siblings. In fact they need to engineer more luxury and distinctiveness into the Mercury line-up to move it uptown a bit more, as GM has done with the Buick. And Lincoln needs to move a bit more uptown as well, to better compete with Cadillac and the Japanese luxury marquess. Lincoln is not strong enough as a brand yet to survive in Lincoln only dealer points. So either creating stronger Lincoln and Mercury brands or dualing Lincoln with Ford are the only short &/or mid term fixes for FOMOCO. Building the image of Lincoln as a brand through product product alone will take too long. Their dealers would not survive without Mercury or dualing with Ford. Dualing with the Ford brand would only serve to lower Lincoln's image further and faster. Putting more money into distinctive, further uptown products for both will achieve their goal of corporate viability sooner. It's a good thing that Lincoln is backtracking to Lincoln-ness, Ford ought to let Mercury start backtracking to Mercury-ness, and truly become Ford division's uptown sister it once was, and needs to be. You're right when you say that the MKZ would have made a terrific Mercury. The Milan should have been a lot closer to what the MKZ is now, and the MKZ should have been a lot more distictive and luxurious than it is now. But who knows, maybe one day they might get it right, assuming they're able to survive that long. I sure hope so, We just went up to the 'Big 3' American manufacturers again, I'd hate to see us become the 'Big 2' again, especially since I believe Chrysler will ultimately be sold off again, which would then make it the 'Big 1'.
  • peetiedogpeetiedog Member Posts: 37
    Yeah. I thought this was the MKS forum as well.

    But since they're on the subject, professork is right as are you greg vw, there is a lot of hard plastic in many more cars than just the MKZ and MKX. But Lincoln has been doing a much better job with interiors than they had been, and overall I'm impressed with their progress. My Audi interiors are still more to my liking, but they are heading in the right direction. And once again I agree that it's not whether or not you have hard plastic or not, it's how and where you use it. A luxury car should have a luxury feel and touch. I will say this, I was impressed by what I saw in the MKS as far as interior execution and feel, still not up to Audi standards, but a strong step forward. One other observation though, each of the newer Lincolns (MKZ, MKZ, and MKS) appear to be priced thousands of dollars less than their Japanese luxury competitors, and offer a few extra toys that are not available on them. Not quite as low as the Hyundai price point, but not quite Lexus/Infiniti price point either.

    I haven't seen the '08 Sonata's interior, but the old one just from professork's pics, does look pretty cobbled up. But the Koreans are learning fast. In fact I think the Japanese are glancing back over their shoulders at the Koreans, because they're running up on the Japanese pretty fast.

    I love my Audis and BMWs, and at least at this point, wouldn't consider a Korean car. GM and Chrysler both make a few really nice cars that I'd probably be proud to own. I just have a soft spot for FOMOCO of all the American manufacturers, and hope they succeed in their comeback efforts. Also they just happened to have their exhibit next to ours at the San Francisco Auto Show, so I had the opportunity to get a rare hands on tour of their new MKS. Not quite an Audi A6, but based on 1st impressions, definitely a car I would not be disappointed to own; subject to a real life test drive, of course.

    I also agree, the nomenclature Lincoln is using is dumb and confusing. MK-LT, MKZ, MKX, MKS, MKR and the upcoming MKT (variant of the Ford Flex), a little too much MK there for me. But maybe they'd better stay with it than to try to go through a whole new re-naming charade.
  • cowbellcowbell Member Posts: 125
    Sorry about getting continuing off subject there.... (though I want to through in agreement that I dislike Lincoln's naming scheme.)

    Back to the MKS: Is anyone planning on going to the Detroit autoshow? I'm wondering if the MKS will be available to sit in. I doubt it, but if someone makes it down there, please let us know. I plan on attending the Washington show at the end of January, and was curious if the MKS would be open to the public?
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Saw some pics on the Lincoln, website and thought it was awesome. Myself would want the twin-turbo 350-400 hp. version later to come out. :shades:

    -Rocky
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Just when you thought it was safe........

    :P ;)
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    I heard that Jeyhoe contacted John Walsh at "America's Most Wanted." ;)
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    Rocky, if I recall correctly, you were pretty impressed with the S80 but concluded that it got a bit spendy by the time you equipped it with all the options you want. I personally think the MKS is much better alternative. Plenty of the gadgetology that you like and a lower price.

    I would prefer the twin-turbo, also, but I don't want to wait for it. The base V6 version doesn't excite me much from a mechanical standpoint but I will be among the first in line to test drive one when they are introduced.

    We recently bought my wife a new Taurus with the 3.5. It is definately faster than my old LS V8, except maybe in the 80-100 MPH range where it really doesn't matter very often. I am expecting the base 3.7 MKS to be a bit quicker than the Taurus in the low to mid range. I still think the base MKS should have gotten DI and around 300 HP/280 lbs/ft to be competitive in today's marketplace.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Just read some stuff in C&D about the MKS. Does Lincoln really think that a FWD Luxury car can be taken seriously? I never was a Ford fan, but with every single other flagship luxury sedan being RWD, I'm not sure how they plan to compete. Heck even the Genesis will have RWD + V8!

    -mike
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    Wow, Mike, New Year's Eve and you are posting a message on a car forum? I admire your dedication!

    I doubt if C & D or any of the enthusiast press will take the MKS seriously. That doesn't mean there won't be buyers. I am a Ford fan and I am not happy with the current state of affairs with Lincoln and I know I am not alone in that regard.

    Rather than look at what the MKS is not, I prefer to look at what it is - more car for the money than other so-called entry level luxury cars like the ES350. In my opinion, it is what the MKZ should have been. I am not sure it makes sense to have both the Z and the S. Their missions seem very close to me but the S is a much better effort.

    If they could have had the twin-turbo and a sport package ready in time for the launch of the MKS, it would have garnered more favorable attention from the enthusiast press. As it is, I am afraid it will remind many of the launch of the Zephyr - too little, too late.

    We need the MKR pronto! In the meantime, I will still give the MKS a chance.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Yeah around here too many DWIs on the road for me to head out. :)

    I'll readily admit that I'm no Ford fan. As an entry level the MKS would be ok, but right now it's all they have really in terms of sedans. I'd like to see Lincoln come out with a nice full-size RWD based (with AWD optional) car that can take on the STS, 5 or 7 series, E/S series etc.

    -mike
  • bigbuck16bigbuck16 Member Posts: 10
    The MKS is not an entry level car stop saying that its a full size luxury sedan its 203 inches, the MKZ is about 191 inches thats a big difference.I think the MKS will do good as long as they market it right.
  • savethelandsavetheland Member Posts: 671
    Not many people can tell difference between RWD and FWD. Most care only about size, interior quality and refinement. People would continue to buy Lexus even if it was FWD-only.

    What about Audi and Volvo being FWD? Nobody complains about it. And BTW Volvo and Audi are very popular in snowy northern countries. FWD is less safe on the snow regardless of excistance high-tech gadgets. Yes, Volvo is not luxury car and Ford will soon destroy Volvo by trying to make it luxury. But it is different issue.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Most of the Audis are AWD with a longitudially mounted engine.
    Volvo as you said is not a luxury car.

    While I agree no one cares if it drives the same, unfortunately it won't drive like a RWD based car.

    -mike
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    Granted the MKS is full-size - same wheelbase as a Taurus with a bit more overall length. However, the term "entry level luxury" likely means different things to different people. To me, the size is one small aspect of the equation. Price and the car's intended mission are two other important factors.

    I do not consider the MKZ to be "entry level luxury." I consider it a premium mid-size sedan, and I use the term "premium" with some degree of hesitation. The ES350, while of similar size to the MKZ, is a more luxurious car and with a few options easily tops $40,000. It is priced and equipped more similarly to the larger MKS. Therefore, my point of the MKS being "more car for the money" than an ES350 seems appropriate. The MKS certainly does not reach the luxury/power/image level of an LS460 even though it is closer in size. It is no where near the price, either.
  • savethelandsavetheland Member Posts: 671
    As far as I understand MKS is also AWD car. One way to diffirentiate from Ford was to use AWD only for Lincoln.

    Audi makes FWD cars, quatro is an option. I drove FWD Audis - nothing spectacular on the track - heavy nose and etc. Longitudial engine in Audi is responsible for huge front overhang, even though may be better for AWD.

    I am not so sure Lincoln is more luxury than Volvo - probably Volvo is more premium than Lincoln. Will MKS be more expensive than S80? I do not think so. Lincoln is not even in PAG.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I believe only lower end Audis can be had in non-quattro trim, certainly their "Flagship" A8L is only AWD. I rarely see any non-awd Audis in recent years, also Audi isn't a true luxury car either, it's a near-luxury car IMHO.

    Is the MKS based off the Tarus/Sable? Both of those are available in AWD.

    -mike
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I'm sure Audi would beg to differ.

    The MKS uses a modified Taurus platform, which is itself a modified S80 platform. The base model is FWD with optional AWD. The twin turbo will probably be AWD only. They're only planning to sell 40K/yr. Audi only sells 12k-15k A6s and that includes the high performance S6 and RS6 variants.

    It's only a flagship by default until the real flagship appears with V8 power and RWD. It will be interesting to see what is shown at Detroit, Chicago and New York auto shows.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    The MKS shares chassis with the Ford 500/taurus and the mercury montego/sable. Any of these cars can be FWD or AWD. Just like the S80 (2006 and earlier) chassis they are based on. The only thing about the drivetrain that is different on the Lincoln is the engine is a wee bit bigger and makes 5 more hp. (Woopdeedoo)
    A good deal was done to differentiate the looks of the Lincon from the other 2 and that seems to have been done well from what I've seen. However, it would take seeing them in person to complete this judgment. Not having seen the S yet, I'll just say that I hope the doors etc are different and not exactly the same as Ford did with the previous Taurus and the Continental. The Conti was a nice looking vehicle from front and back, but shared the concave door panels from the taurus and they ruined the look of it. For me anyway. But it being a FWD plow I'd not be driving one anyway. At least one can get the S with 'AWD' which might make the driving experience tolerable.
    I recently drove 2 of the previous model Taurii as loaners and the very best I can say about it is it's reasonably competent at getting one to and fro.
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    Lincoln sent me a nice little MKS brochure in the mail. No new information in it but I am glad to see that they are doing some promotion. They seem really proud of the technology and interior quality. In the brochure, they make no mention of driving dynamics, handling or anything of the kind. It is clear what their priorities are with this car.

    The current model Taurus/Sable platform is a good one in terms of solidness, ride quality, isolation, and room. Even the doors on the new Taurus go "thuck" when you close them instead of "gruntch" like the old Taurus. The platform is so vastly much better than the old Taurus/Continental that there is no comparison. As for the looks, the change from Taurus to MKS is like taking a chubby plain-jane and turning her into a prom-queen.

    As for FWD, you know I have never been a fan but this platform manages torque steer better than any FWD car I have ever driven. Unless you step on it hard enough to break the tires loose, torque steer is pretty much non existant on a 3.5 Taurus. I am not convinced AWD is much of an aid in handling, either. Road tests of the AWD S80 talk about heavy understeer. C & D says it handles like a FWD car. About the only difference I have seen with AWD in a Taurus is that they are slower than the FWD version in terms of acceleration.

    Here in the north country, there are lots of buyers who like FWD because of its abilities on snow. The MKS will appeal to some because of it's FWD and available AWD. Those prone to BMWs will not be interested in the MKS, anyway.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I believe (and correct me if I'm wrong) the AWD system is completely reactive with a 100% FWD bias normally on this platform, which would explain the FWD-like handling.

    I hope for Lincoln's sake they come out with some Lincoln specific cars, similar to Caddy (CTS and STS).

    -mike
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