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Comments
It seems to me that this is a bigger and MUCH better alternative to the MKZ - which I have never thought was a proper Lincoln. If the current numbers for the base V6 are the final numbers, I will be disappointed. The old 2001 Continental had a 275 HP DOHC V8 and was a bit lighter than the MKS. Introducing this car with a less powerful V6, no matter how refined, is opening it up to considerable negative reports from the enthusiast press - not unlike introducing the Zephyr with the 3.0.
BUT, I will say the more pix I see of the mks, the more I like the exterior. The interior is looking better as well, though I still dont think it's good enough for the class this thing wants to run in. And folks are right, it's too big to be a CTS competitor. It competes in size with the STS I guess. DTS is too big. (Actually, Lincoln's aiming the thing at the Lucerne and LaCrosse arent they? Or do they even know? Chrysler 300 maybe?)
THe 270hp is unfortunate though. Especially if one opts for the heavier AWD model. And the price for the twin turbo is surely going to be pretty steep. V8 power with V6 fuel economy is a good tag line. However, twin turbos as someone mentioned will be real pricey to fix if they break. And with Ford's lack of experience mfg'ing turbos, I would imagine these things will be a huge maintenance issue.
Oh well, tried to stay positive. It sure looks sweet in red. Too bad an Accord will probably beat it in 1/4 mile or 0-60 as it did the Marauder.
This thing is hard to catagorize. However, with the exception of the engine, I think Lincoln was smart. With the way they have bungled things the last few years, Lincoln has lost most of the cache it once had. No way would anyone pay $50 - 60 thousand for a car with the Lincoln badge on it. Therefore, why not give folks a larger, roomier, exceptionally well equipped car at a price comparable to a Lexus ES350? The STS and DTS are eventually morphing into one model so it might compete with that.
The MKS strikes me as a car that would appeal to the older Lincoln loyalists with it's room and more traditional interior. Yet, the looks are edgy enough to appeal to younger buyer, too. I am in the middle, age wise, and I like it all - except the numbers for the base engine.
Even though I am not a fan of the Yamaha V8 from the S80, now that I have seen the preliminary specs for the 3.7, I have to agree with Volvomax - it might have been wise to offer the Yamahopper as an option, regardless of price.
The V8 mentioned in the newsletter is either a typo or old information.
If the thing moves like a V8, is quiet, and gets as least as good mileage as a comparably powered V8, it should sell. It isn't a sports sedan...though maybe they will try setting it up that way for the TT, sort of akin to a poor man's version of the Jaguar XJR (400 hp). It will be Lincoln's best looking vehicle for awhile. Just wish they had ditched that rear door/pillar Japanese look for a line more like the MKR's. But that goof will not hurt it much, as several other premium sedans use the similar styling there. At least it has the broad haunches all future Lincolns should have.
Exactly. They need to rebuild the brand before they can command Lexus dollars. Remember the first Lexus LS400? It was priced in the mid-30s because no one would pay Mercedes money for a Toyota. Now that Lexus has a reputation, they can offer products approaching $100,000.
I know I keep beating a dead horse on the base engine but looking at the Mazda CX9 performance data from the December Motor Trend might give us a clue to how the MKS might perform. The Mazda had the 3.7 rated at 273 HP and the torque was 270. Their test car was AWD and weighed over 4600 pounds. It ran 0-60 in 7.8 and had a 16 second quarter mile. Based on that, a FWD 4,127 pound MKS should do 0 - 60 in the high 6s. Not too bad.
I wonder if the MKS HP and torque numbers are certified yet? Originally, Ford said the 3.5 would be 250 HP and then it was certified at 263 -265 depending upon application. We might see the final HP and torque numbers for the MKS grow beyond what they are currently saying.
What's this? Everything I've read says the 3.7 is "Lincoln-exclusive" and debuts in the mks. Now you tell me this "Lincoln" engine has been in the Mazda CX-9 for a year already?
BTW, I just received first Consumer Reports mag on a new subscr. Interesting car data in there has the CX-9 rated unreliable. Interesting. It also has the Navigator rated as reliable and Ford in general UP and Toyota DOWN. Other news - the new Escape rated just about at the bottom of 20 or so little SUVs.
The specs at Media Ford say "Premium recommended" for the MKS although they list an octane number of 87. Maybe they plan to advertise a lower HP and regular fuel usage but have it tuned to provide more power if the customer uses premium. I am used to buying premium for my LS so I would have no problem continuing that if it means 10 - 15 more HP.
Look at all the different HP ratings on the Ford 4.6. HP and torque vary considerably, even in the various Mustang versions, not to mention the Crown Vic and F150 versions. Same with the 5.4 liter. No, the Shelby GT 500 Cobra KR engine isn't the "same" as the F150 engine...unless you are talking the supercharged Harley Davidson version.
The point being, this is not really a Lincoln exclusive engine. It is exclusive to Lincoln among the Ford-Mercury-Lincoln family for now, but the F150 and Mustang will be using it soon enough. It will have tuning and turbos exclusively for Lincoln initially, but it is not like replacing the old Olds Rocket 350 with the Chevy 350 which a generation ago caused an emotional outcry among GM customers who back then still expected that an Olds or a Cadillac would not use a Chevy engine (even if it was a better engine). This is a Ford family engine and will eventually see use among many divisions in a whole host of models.
Maybe the MKR will get something really exclusive. One can hope.
Look at what Jag and Lincoln did with the S type and LS V8. Different stroke, different cylinder liners, different pistons, different heads, different intake, different PCM, etc. etc.
I wasn't suggesting it was a totally different engine, just that the Mazda and Lincoln versions were being developed independently and they're not really interchangeable.
Rather than waste their effort on this, Ford would have benefited by adding the features from this car as options on the Taurus and Sable, and re-doing the interior of those cars.
The MKS is far from perfect, but people will at least look at it, get past the exterior and in larger numbers give it a chance to rise or fall on its merits beyond looks.
It does share a styling quirk with many Fords that I wish it did not have. Like the 1996 Taurus, and the 500/Montego/Taurus/Sable, it looks like a shorter car than it actually is. Lots of people think it is sized like the LS or CTS. In actuality, it is half a foot longer than the Chrysler 300 and about the same length as a Lucerne, even though the Lucerne somehow looks like a bigger car. The MKS is several inches longer than the Audi A8, the BMW 750i, the Jaguar XJ, the Lexus LS460, the Cadillac STS and the Maserati Quattroporte, but on first glance looks smaller than some of those. Why create a big and long car that gives an initial impression of being only mid-sized?
Still, that's a small complaint and hardly worth mentioning when at least Lincoln has designed a body that lots of people find attractive. That will not be true of the Taurus/Sable unless and until Ford re-draws the frumpy thing.
The MKS is tall, too. I have only seen the pictures but at least it appears that it's length and more expressive styling mask the fact that it stands so tall.
I had quite a chat with the General Manager of the high volume dealership where we bought our Taurus. He thinks they made a mistake by stocking so many loaded AWD Limiteds with stickers of around $30,000. It is his opinion that sticker shock has been his biggest problem with the Taurus sedan. He will be getting a lot more SELs in the coming weeks. He also indicated that the Taurus X has been very good for his dealership - the price hasn't been an issue for it.
Here's a quote: "The new MKS? A tolerable effort, to be sure, but is it a game-changing Lincoln? Oh, hell no."
It was triggered by the laughable comment by Lincolns' new marketing guru, Jim Farley, that Lincoln should be a global brand. Now, where have we heard this before? IMHO there are about 1/2 dozen posters to this forum who have, over the past 5 or 6 years, proven they know and care more about Lincoln than anyone at Ford who's actually paid to. They should put us in charge.
Seriously, read the article. I'm going to save it offline for posterity.
Speaking of names, why in the H*LL would Pontiac drop a great name like "Bonneville" in favor of G8?
I think DiLorenzo is one of the most tuned-in guys to the auto market around. He';s almost always right on IMHO. The name thing IS pretty stupid and it seems there's something in the water in Detroit as that's the only way to explain them dropping 'Bonneville' for 'G8' - what the heck is THAT?
I remember meeting Jim Rogers way back in 2001 and sitting thru a presentation when he said basically 'you think the LS is good, wait til you see what Lincoln has in the pipe for the future'. Well, those were the good old days before the Ford-Firestone disaster killed everything. I've always wondered what Jim was referring to and if maybe they were trying to get the Continental concept built? As AE and many here have said "Now THAT would be a proper Lincoln."
Back in the day, I thought the DEW98 platform would be the basis for many more cars than just the LS and S-type Jag. The Continental concept on a stretched version of that platform with the 4.6 or 5.4 modular engine seemed doable at the time and would have been awesome if introduced around 2002 or so. Oh well, no use crying about what might have been.
Haven't heard from Douglas or nvbanker for awhile....hope they haven't given up on Lincoln.
Yeah and how about our buddy Rocky? Or even ANT. I wonder if he got out of Ford back during buyout days.
Dammit! I WANT Lincoln to be something to aspire to again. What other 60's sedan in restrospect has such elegance? Heck, the 1990 TC was a stunner and the Mark VII LSC had true panache. Even the 98 TC design had inspiration, though the chassis was getting doddery (sort olf like Mamie Van Doren who is hands down the sexiest 74 year old on the planet with the best boobs, and who else at that age can still pose nude and look good...but she is still 74).
I, too, really want Lincoln to be a brand people aspire to again. I just hope they grow the stones to turn things around.
In my opinion, a Lincoln version of the Flex answers a question that shouldn't even be asked.
Let's face it. Until the new RWD platform arrives, Lincoln is just treading water when it comes to the passenger car line-up. The MKZ gives them something to sell but it does nothing to further the image of the Lincoln marque. The MKS is a MUCH better effort but being based on the D3 platform, it has the inherent disadvantage of being FWD based and worse yet, it is so frickin tall! The MKS is over 61 inches while the MKR concept was 53. No way will a passenger car over 5 feet in height with the typical FWD overhang look sleek or alluring. They did the best with it they could style-wise, added lots of content, and priced it right. It will likely ride great and be exceptionally quiet. No, it will not re-define Lincoln but it is a worthy effort, IMO.
Anyway, IMHO Lincoln needs this about as much as they need to build an outboard motor. As Yogi said, "It's hard to make predictions - especially about the future" but I predict the Flex will not be a hit. THe two vehicles out there right now (besides minivans) which are most like the Flex are the Taurus-X and the Pacifica. Neither of these vehicles are selling well. In fact, Chrysler has all but announced the demise of the Pacifica. So I dunno, who's gonna buy the Flex? Never mind a Lincoln version costing probably $12,000 - $15,000 or so more?
Lincoln apparently will have a people mover too. I am just hoping that not showing the concept yet means that they threw out the first proposal and are trying now to draw some Lincoln DNA on it. After all, for awhile now Ford has been showing us their very meager set of future models long, long before the sale date. If they are stopping that nonsense, that would be great...as if, showing a model that will be sold in two years will help sales now. Get real. Whatever the Lincoln Flex ends up looking like, I do hope it looks nothing like the Flex.
The Taurus/Sable platform is a good one for a luxury car in terms of ride, room, and quiet operation. (not so much sporty handling) It seems that they have covered all the bases in terms of luxury equipment and technology. The styling is more dramatic than we have seen from Lincoln lately. The pricing seems appropriate. There are some Lincoln loyalists out there currently driving LSs, and even old Continentals that will be attracted to the MKS. Even some TC owners might find it appealing. It could also cannabalize MKZ sales since it is such a MUCH better effort. Even assuming sales to current Ford/Lincoln owners, they are going to have to pull in some conquest sales to continue to meet the sales targets.
Thoughts?
I'm sure the 40K figure included the Twin Force variants which won't be out right away. The MKZ should get a facelift next year with the 3.7L engine and the new signature Lincoln split grille. I also hope it gets the MKS style dash (maybe minus the leather) and some of the MKS features.
I'll reiterate my earlier comments - you won't see big volumes until you start getting repeat buyers (rolling from a 3 yr lease into a new 3 yr lease, trading in a 3-4 yr old vehicle on a new one). How many BMW buyers are on their 2nd, 3rd, 4th generation of the same vehicle?
"Lincoln Enthusiasts. Last week's Rant by Peter really struck a nerve with the Lincoln faithful, and the ground swell of enthusiasm and interest in resurrecting the brand with proper Lincolns is not falling on deaf ears in Dearborn. Let's just say it's definitely "on the table" for intense discussion at Ford."
WOW. Ford is actually thinking about discussing "proper" Lincolns. This and 6 or 8 years oughtta bring something says 'Lincoln' that's worth driving.
A luxury sports sedan would be a great addition to the 2009 upgraded entry level MKZ and the full-luxury MKS. The only thing lacking would be a TC replacement.
No way it's dew98 if for no other reason than the corporate V8s won't fit, not to mention the cost.
It would most likely be either a D3 converted to RWD (this was rumored last year including a RWD unibody explorer replacement), a lengthened mustang platform or (my personal guess) an existing Aussie platform.
It sounds like Mulally and Fields are accelerating the right programs (putting the 3.5L into the Fusion, now possibly the MKR). Besides, using an Aussie platform was out of the question prior to Fields and Mulally taking charge.
The only real question is how quickly these things can get done.
From what the insiders have said that wasn't a real platform - just something they cobbled together with a welding torch and duct tape for the show cars.
I bet Mulally raked them over the coals for that debacle.
"What do you mean, it's not a real platform and we can't build it?"
Like I said before, not having a viable RWD platform available now (meaning it would have been engineered back in 2003 or earlier) is the big problem at Lincoln right now when it comes to sedans.
Yep, hopefully those days are over.
I need to see this car in person - hopefully there will be one at the Minneapolis auto show in March. I also need to see final engine specs/performance expectations before I commit to owning one.
I must admit that I was not really that enamored with the LS until I drove one. I had followed all the press for months and months prior to introduction just like I have the MKS. I am not expecting the MKS to be the ground-breaking vehicle for Lincoln that the LS was but, so far, it looks like it might fit my current needs quite well. I can't drive my LS forever.....
The LS was a tidy design. The S is MUCH bigger, with a huge front overhang, almost a foot longer, and also much taller. It has way more interior room than the LS. You will be able to get an AWD version to offset some of the inherent plowing you get with a FWD with the engine over (or somewhat forward of) the drivewheels (rather than moved a bit rearward as Audi is now starting to do). It will start off with a V6 only, with hopefully a twin turbo to follow. The LS was a driver's car. The MKS is a roomy tall sedan with a lot of luxury features. All depends on what you want. I know I don't want something so pudgy (I'll wait for the MKR), but it will nonetheless meet the needs of a lot of buyers on the cusp of near-luxury/luxury.
As for owners of later model LS's going for the MKS, I guess it depends on their priorities. Did they buy the LS because it was a great driver's car with tidy (but conservative) styling or because of all the rebates and discounting? We know the later models didn't set the world on fire with sales results.
The MKS really has more in common with the old Continental than with the LS. Most Contintental owners have replaced theirs by now as well. Lincoln will have to rely on more than just current Lincoln owners to achieve continued sales success with the MKS.
You left out those that bought it for styling and luxury features. I think those are the ones most likely to opt for the MKS.
I think the MKS will actually appeal to import buyers and have more conquest sales. That's why I think it can co-exist with a new RWD, performance oriented V8 powered MKR. Different markets.
More than likely though, given the changes in the outside world and in our wallets, the LS will get replaced by something much more fuel-efficient. At close to $4.00 a gallon now, a 16/23 EPA rating just aint making it.
The rain-sensing wipers, power tilt/telescope wheel, separate heat/AC controls for driver and passenger were a few things the LS had that Continentals and TCs lacked when I bought mine. The modern and refined drivetrain along with the excellent ride/handling balance and quiet interior made the LS a fine luxury car. Frankly, I think they compromised the LS luxury attributes with the changes in 2003. No more non-sport V8s for American market and some other "luxury" features were lost.
Since the MKS has very few sporting aspirations, it can really concentrate on the luxury market with fewer compromises than the LS. The MKR can take the role of the sports sedan in the lineup.
I think the powers at Lincoln would be dismayed to hear you say this. After all this is the car slated to receive the much-ballyhooed "Twin Force" 350hp+ engine. Seems like the car better have sporting aspirations to me. You dont put a twin-turbo in a sedate luxury sedan, do you? Unless perhaps you're totally schizo, dont really know what you're doing and don't have any other place to put the engine that is.
The MKS wouldn't be any less sporty if they put wood paneling on the sides and a luggage rack on top. A 5 foot + tall, 4300 pound sedan with a tranverse engine and FWD/AWD will not fit my definition of sporty even if you put a NASCAR engine in it.
Of course, it won't go on sale until next summer. It will have taken little short of an eternity to bring this Taurus variation to market. A hope for Lincoln is that the MKR will be good enough that it will actually leapfrog over the competition, rather than play catchup or let's tread water.