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Eh, it is a tippy, non-responsive, dull appliance of a transport. The base model doesn't even have sway bars. Its a pretty miserable drive (perhaps not the new '09, but so far the reports haven't been too encouraging).
In contrast to a Civic, which feels more responsive, handles better, and has no drawbacks relative to the Corolla.
I do share your sentiments about the Corolla's lack of personality, or any "fun" pretenses whatsoever. The Civic is a RACE car in comparison.
Valid point, it seems one is tuned for luxury and one is tuned for sport. I didn't care for the highway ride of the Corolla because as a passenger, I felt it bordered on wallowy.
That said, having owned both Corollas and Hondas of the same year my personal preferences aside (Honda) I remain steadfast in my claim that they are both great cars......... :shades:
Just kidding (for the most part, ).
As for the next-gen Fit, they have already said they softened the suspension to "smooth out" that great handling, in order to achieve a better ride. I used to call this Camry-ization, but I'm going to start calling it Accord-ization. :-(
More articles out there today on the predicament Mini finds itself in: no more cars available to ship for dealer stock for the remainder of this year.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The proper term is "Buick-ify". There's a reason Toyota is called Japan's Buick.
Heck, the sale of Minis, Fits, and Yarises exceeds by a goodly margin Buick's total sales, and all 3 of those models were constrained by production capacity from meeting full demand (hatchbacks only, in the case of the Yaris).
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Yes, our Sienna is not very exciting, and the steering has less feedback than my Nintendo Wii Remote (a lot less....), but so what? It's a freaking family hauler, not a sports car. It is a lot quieter than the Odyssey, rides smoother, my kids can watch movies while my wife sleeps, and I can drive in total peace.
Being "boring" or "dull" or whatever you want to call it doesn't make them bad cars. They are designed to be isolated. That's intentional.
If you don't like them, don't buy them, but you can't say it's better or worse, it's all a matter of what you want. For people that want quiet isolation, IMO Toyota > Honda.
It's incredible how many people can't understand that.
I'm not targeting my rant at you or anyone specifically, just at the general attitude enthusiasts have towards Toyota. If your aunt asks you to recommend a quiet car, tell her to get a Toyota, odds are she'll thank you for it.
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Beyond that, I have driven many many MANY miles at the wheel of my friend's Sienna at this point, and I would agree that in a van what do you really want besides smooth power and ride, lots of isolation from road noise, maybe some decent emergency handling (which I'm not convinced the Sienna would have, but I haven't tried - not my van!). Sienna scores well in the areas that van buyers would prioritize, I imagine. The proof is in the pudding - it's the best-selling minivan now, right? Me, I would find another way to transport my family, unless I had more fannies than a 5-seat sedan could accomodate. Or if I was wealthy enough, I would have the Sienna just for highway trips - that van really excels in that area - little noise intrudes, the ride is sooo smooth, power is good and brakes are decent, and it tracks straight without requiring lots of steering input, despite the high sides.
I would have 2 subcompacts for the rest of the time! ;-)
Oh, and as regards this: For people that want quiet isolation, IMO Toyota > Honda.
I would just say this is completely 100% true in every class of car there is where the two go head to head. Even between the Fit and the Yaris, it is evident after 1 minute of driving that the Honda is noisier, with a busier ride. The trade-off is the Yaris isn't as good a handler, and the Fit is more fun to drive.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
It's not even limited to comments I've heard in this thread. It's just this overall sentiment towards Toyota from enthusiasts, that comfort and quiet are seemingly bad things. Not so, if that is what a buyer is looking for.
I think when "Camry" is used as an adjective, it's almost always condescending. Yet it's the best selling car in America, so Toyota is just giving people what they want.
If a Camry could talk, it would reponse like so....
Sure, I'm soft and isolated, and don't handle like a sports car, but 2/3rds of Americans are overweight and need the room and enjoy the comfort, and could not fit in the Recaro seats of an EVO X if their life depended on it. And my cup holders are better so there. :P
Base car at steady 70 mph: 14.6 mpg (honest!)
Max with all add on (radial tires, aero ads, 2 blade fan): 18.1 mpg
Makes a 35 mpg Fit look pretty good....
And when they evaluate minivans, maybe spend less time at the track, and more time car-pooling, carrying people and their stuff, which is what vans do.
They even complained that the 3rd row was hard to fold, and gushed over the Dodge's power folding ones - yet Toyota offered them first!
Most cases of beer! In all configurations. Game Over for me. LOL
Any how, rant over, back to subcompacts. Hopefully a few more people will understand that some people intentionally choose ride over handling.
Now sure, cars got worse in the 70's, but I've been able to get about 17.4 out of my '76 LeMans, 350-4bbl, and 18 out of my '79 New Yorker, 360-2bbl.
I have heard thought, that 1974 was about the worst year ever for fuel economy. All that rudimentary smog crap really hurt fuel economy, and when the catalytic converter came out for 1975, it actually improved things alot.
I personally feel that if I am going to spend time driving, it might as well be enjoyable. I am not talking about styling, I am talking about driving experience.
I don't understand your reference about stealing something out of one car more than another or what you feel would draw attention to one car more than the others. If you are getting your needs met, I think you made the right decision for your situation.
I don't want a car that people are going to envy and want to steal all or part of it. I could have bought an "exciting" car that's maybe less reliable, or a "boring" car that I can count on and has lower insurance rates - the dreaded "appliance". I chose a boring, attractive car. My driving experience in my boring car is OK. It's the interior of the car that makes the driving experience for me rather than the exterior anyway, in my view, which for me means as long as I have my music and am comfortable and safe, I'm fine.
I personally equate "fun-to-drive" with "driving like an idiot". I don't need that. Slow and sensible wins the race.
I'm really not expecting anyone to "understand" this point of view. It's just that the other poster made some very good points that I agree with. And yes, I am getting my needs met by my choice.
I understand, I didn't mean to come across as critical of your choices; thats why we have choices, so everyone can get their needs met.
I don't want a car that people are going to envy and want to steal all or part of it. I could have bought an "exciting" car that's maybe less reliable, or a "boring" car that I can count on and has lower insurance rates - the dreaded "appliance".
I think this might be where we differentiate things. An interesting or exciting car need not scream "steal me" nor spend all of its days in the service bay. I haven't lost a vehicle (or any part) to theft nor have I spent a lot of time in the dealer's service department waiting room, and yet I have still found rides I would consider enjoyable. With the exception of my current vehicle, I wouldn't have considered any of my cars as appliances.
My driving experience in my boring car is OK. It's the interior of the car that makes the driving experience for me rather than the exterior anyway, in my view, which for me means as long as I have my music and am comfortable and safe, I'm fine.
To that end, I definitely agree with your decision, the Corolla gives a Lexus-like
feeling inside until you actually touch anything.
I personally equate "fun-to-drive" with "driving like an idiot". I don't need that. Slow and sensible wins the race.
Its interesting that you implied that enjoying a drive is "driving like an idiot" but compared your driving style with racing.
I'm really not expecting anyone to "understand" this point of view. It's just that the other poster made some very good points that I agree with. And yes, I am getting my needs met by my choice.
That, my fellow forum contributor, is what its all about (to the contrary of those that feel putting your left foot in and shaking it around is what its all about).
It's a fable, "The Tortoise and the Hare," about who wins in life, not just about racing: the hot shot showoff or the nondescript but reliable plodder. I thought the terminology was appropos!
Its the link between fun cars and exhibitionism I don't understand.
And that somehow driving a penalty box gets you further ahead.
Some of the upcoming subs will fit that mold too, like the Fiesta, the new Aveo5 and the Beat that will replace it in a couple of years. Others like the Hornet and of course the existing Mini Cooper give you more flash, but often you pay extra for "flash", and the Mini is no exception. I wonder how they will price the Hornet when it arrives (courtesy of Chery Motors Inc). Seeing as its Chinese, I expect it will be low-priced.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Your response was timely because either last night or the night before someone broke in to my flashy convertible (Miata) and stole all the change out of the center console.
It unfortunately does draw unwanted attention.
At least there wasn't anything valuable in it.
From Automotive News, for 2008 sales through June 30:
Fit: up 67% from 2007
Accent: up 48.9%
Rio: up 29.1%
Yaris: up 39%
Mini Cooper: up 33.6%
And if you're counting Versa (debatable for inclusion in this category, IMO), it is up 20.7%.
And for those of you tracking the ForTwo, they sold 11,399 of them by midyear, and that wasn't a full six months of sales by any means.
The only one that wasn't up in a big way (about flat instead) was the Aveo, which I think was partly because a lot of the Aveos were going to fleets last year, and GM is still cutting back on its rental fleet sales.
http://www.autonews.com/assets/PDF/CA5240487.PDF
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Well, there was the xA, down a whopping 99.6%. :P
Considering how bad off the economy supposedly is, I'm surprised that total car sales are staying as strong as they are. The grand total comes out to 3.989M, down from 4.059M. That's only a 1.7% drop. Now a lot of that is redistribution, as sales of smaller cars are increasing while bigger and more premium categories are dropping.
Still, it looks like people are buying. I guess truck sales might tell a different story, though.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Bad timing.
It is significant to note that while Toyota dealers can't keep Corollas in stock, Matrixes are piling up in unprecedented numbers. While Matrix has a lot more utiltity than the Corolla sedan, it also consumes at least 20% more gas, making it less popular in times of $4 gas. The same applies to the xD (replacement for the xA).
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
In Brazil they actually sell a Corolla Fielder, which is a Corolla wagon. An no it looks nothing at all like a Matrix.
I'd pick that for the extra space, better visibility, plus better mileage to boot.
My brother is shopping for a Hyundai Tucson and I suggested one of those as an alternative. Both are FWD and the Fielder actually costs less in Brazil.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The one in the Matrix has almost vanished. Visibility isn't nearly as good, and keeps getting worse.
Toyota dealers will gladly sell you an extra-cost backup cam, I'm sure.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Oh that's an Elantra wagon. The CR-V is actually morphing into something that you'd use to smuggle 500 cases of Coors from Texarkanna to Atlanta with a '77 Trans Am running blocker for you!
Both look like a lot of fun, especially the Abarth.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)