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Isn't it funny that a Jaguar became a more reliable vehicle under Ford and it "lost luster'? :confuse:
Granted a seeming contradiction, and also something that that is probably true - Jaguars did become more reliable , BUT is it also not true that many 'lusterous' brands (eg BMW,MB etc.) are not necessarily so reliable primarily due to a very high level of mechanical (and technical) sophistication. I would contend that about the only 'luxury' brands out there that maintain a high level of reliability despite high levels of sophistication are Japanese - not German, Italian, or British.
Better phrased: "Isn't it sad that Ford mismanaged Jaguar into a brand that lost luster, despite making an enormous investment to improve its reliability?"
The reliability improvements, and the improvements to the signature XJ sedan, were just about the only things Ford did right with Jaguar. The fatal blunder was to take the model line downscale: first the $40,000 S-Type that was transparently available for $10G less as a Lincoln, then the coffin-sealing $30,000 X-Type (also offered as a station wagon!) that was even more transparently a tarted-up Ford Mondeo. Can you say "Cimarron"?
I talked to someone who was associated with Jaguar marketing at that time. The problem was that Ford saddled Jaguar with annual sales goals that were so unrealistically high, Jaguar had no hope of even approaching them except by going so far downmarket that their long-term brand equity would inevitably be damaged. Which is exactly what's happened.
Maybe I am wrong but isn't the MKS just a rebadged Taur/Hundred?
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
2009 Lincoln MKS
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
The 'bling' packages are logically going to be even more extensive on something Lincoln is going to price at $40k when you can buy basically the same car for $15k less as a Ford. But 'bling' doesn't necessarily make for a luxury car either.
The MKS is a newer car based on everything else that has been done to it...even the suspension is done differently. Just because the same platform is used, it doesn't mean it has to be the same car. Isn't that an argument we already had and you proved that point to me???
When hasn't this been the case? 40 years ago? The Mark was always a Thunderbird/Cougar, the Town Car was a CV/GM, the late 80s/early 90s Continental was a Taurus. The only car they ever put out in recent years that wasn't a badge job was the LS. BTW, a damn fine car that never caught on.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Just imagine if Olds was still around, they may have 5. How many versions of the Trailblazer are there? I think even Saab has one. Just crazy IMO.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
What do you think?
Some of us are old enough to remember Galaxy 500s , not that I can recall anything remarkable about that particular car.
but no matter
they changed it back to Taurus to give buyers something to recognize.
and then to their amazement they discovered that they had ruined that name as well - and it still doesn't sell. The Taurus was a pretty contemporary (and successful) car 20 years ago or so.
Maybe their V8, not a BMW V8.
I've heard this repeatedly now: "the Duratec 3.5L is just a bigger version of the old unrefined Duratec 3.0L."
It actually takes a lot more than just bumping up displacement by 0.5L to get an additional 60 HP. Just like comparing the Lexus ES300 (210 HP) to the ES350 (272 HP). They had to do a lot more than just increase displacement to get that additional 62 HP.
The fact that they kept the "Duratec" label means nothing. They've done it before: look at the first year of the "Triton" 5.4L V8 in the 1997 F-series. It made only 230 HP. The current "Triton" 5.4L makes 300 HP and provides better fuel economy. Both engines have the same label, but other than displacement, they have little in common internally.
That's a good analysis of what happened. Trying to make Fords out of Jaguar. :shades:
The heads went from 2 to 3 valves and some sort of variable valve timing was introduced. The basic engine design and bottom end are very similar if not identical.
You are right about the Toyota example though, the 3.0/3.3 have nothing in common with the 3.5.
Ford's 3.5 is considered "all new" however, I do wonder how much of the "old" 3.0 was used. They share the same 60 degree architecture and similar valve layouts.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
they have little in common
while I'll admit to know little about the specific components in Ford's DT engines, and generally will agree that a ~20% bump in displacement is hard pressed to yield a 30% increase in HP, my observations (in an Edge) are generally that the 3.5 is the same DT in terms of refinement as the anemic 3.0 was. This has generally been confirmed in many other reviews of this engine in multiple Ford products including the Taurus. Reference the current issue of CR where they road test/compare the new Accord along with things like the Amanti and Taurus, and you will see the same sort of comments along with a negative comment about the 'new' engine's FE. It does seem that Ford's 'new' DT3.5 while it does give the Taurus competitive power it does not really give it an overall competitive engine in terms of refinement. It may or may not be a simple bore/stroke job or it may or may not be a 'new' engine as Ford will certainly claim but the results are the same - a generally substandard engine IMO especially when you consider that it was 3 years late in coming (it was supposed to be in the original Five Hundred), and in relation to things like the Toyota 2GR, the Nissan VQ and even the Hyundai 3.3/3.8.
I would be willing to bet that had Ford been able to get the production of the 3.5 up in time we would not be talking about the 'Taurus' today however - the 500 would still be alive and would have sold much better!
The Duratec isn't as silky as the 2GR when you listen to it, but it's also TONS better than the GM pushrods, and certainly not loud or obnoxious enough to be offensive. The top of the class is the 2GR, but that doesn't make everything else bad; just not as "excellent" as the 'Yota.
as almost any DOHC engine should be - but you also forgot to mention Ford's own 4 liter pushrod V6 - recently had the experience of driving one in a rental Mustang - that engine is the one that gets my nomination as the worst of the worst with all due 'respect' to the GM 3.8. And yes, the engines in my Avalon (and my wife's Altima) have definitely gotten me to expect more out of a V6 than simply some HP.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Betcha they sell at least six of 'em. Hope they left a vacant space in the Ford museum next to the Blackwood.
Back to the fullsizers?
I think the Taurus is the best value in the class. Clean looks, roomy and comfortable, 28 MPG Highway (where most people do the majority of their driving), and you can get one nicely equipped for around $21,000. The only comparable car that comes close is the Azera GLS, which you can get for around $22,000. All others cost thousands more. Anyone who's in the market definitely needs to check out all the brands. Back in 1998 or 2000, I'd say stick with the Japanese brands. Today, in 2008, Hyundai and the 2 of the Big 3 have stepped it up to the point where they are definitely worth a look.
Never right about what, Captain?
Rule #2: When wife is wrong, refer to Rule #1.
I currently have an 08 Taurus with the 3.5 engine. The engine reminds me of the old 3.1 GM I had in an early 90's Lumina. It's got a loud growl when you start it and take off. Once you get the Taurus on the open road however, it's very quiet. The new Taurus's are very nice cars. The styling is too conservative, but you can't beat the safety, options, drive and price.
Roland