Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see May lease deals!
Options
Popular New Cars
Popular Used Sedans
Popular Used SUVs
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
@Bmlexus: try waiting patiently for another MY or so. Last time I heard the current BMW twin turbos will be replaced with a new, more reliable single turbo in all models as late as 2012 MY. The change will start with the upcoming 5-series.
Oh and don't worry about your posts being invisible, it happens to everyone, myself included. It's just sometimes they're so eager to write their thoughts they forget about everything else. :shades:
Questions (I just realized they're basically the same as bmlexus' earlier, but I'll second them):
1. Now, what do you all think of the upcoming 5-series? I've seen the pics, and it looks like a mix between 7, e39 5-series, and e90 3series. Not too bad, although a bit over decorated IMO. But the best part is they actually refrain from giving it the "pig snout" treatment, thank goodness for that :shades:
2. Has anyone tried the new Lexus HS? First impressions, anyone? The HS isn't scheduled for Indonesian market at all, so I guess there's no way to test it until I get my vacation :sick:
Oh and happy thanksgiving to you all.
don't worry about your posts being invisible, it happens to everyone, myself included
That is true! It's the nature of the forum.
It's just sometimes they're so eager to write their thoughts they forget about everything else.
Maybe you are speaking for yourself... regarding "they're so eager to write their thoughts they forget about everything else."
So, I'll speak for myself...
Frankly, I just don't always have enough time to have a dialogue about every single topic. And, quite honestly, sometimes I am not as interested in some discussions as others. Some posts might express opinions or perspectives that I find more interesting than others. I do attempt to engage conversation with everyone here when I can, but it's just not possible all the time. Admittedly, I often steal time away from other more important things in life that I should be doing in order to post here, but that's my responsibility or lack thereof.
And, I think it is clear to everyone that those hybrid posts are interesting to me. I have always tried to jump in when it comes to discussions about alternative powertrains. We have a long history of discussing diesel and hybrid powertrains here on this forum, and it is certainly on topic, especially as it relates to the lux segment. (For example, I look forward to hearing about Charlie's experience with his Lexus hybrid from time to time, and Dewey's diesel and hybrid.) To me, powertrain technology it is one of the most fascinating aspects of the industry's evolution right now, and it is certainly very relevant.
I also enjoy exploring and discussing the differences between Japanese and European vehicles, identifying terrific values in the lux segment, getting the latest scoop on upcoming vehicles, watching head-to-head competition between various models (for example an M3 vs. an RS4), as well as new model reviews, style and design perspectives, current member's vehicles, and much more.
So... m4d_cow and bmlexus... for what it's worth...
TM
TM
As for me, when someone asks something I don`t know or have an opinion on, I don`t respond unless the post is addressed to me...I don`t mean any disrespect, just don`t have an opinion......Now when you post something I usually have some thought, as I have followed your progress through life, with interest...
For me, the bmw 5 may be a fine car, just depending on how the interior fits together and the materials..I am sure the drive will be superior..but as I enjoy comfort and textil feel more than I use to--I`l have to wait til I experience it...
I sure am in a quandry, as nothing really catches my attention right now, and right now is usually when I get a new car....I`l keep waiting and hope something comes along---something exciting----Tony
When you buy an Audi, you're buying a bit of Volkswagen, a bit of SEAT, you know.
When it comes to the Golf derived cars like the A3 and the TT, he sort of has a point. I don't think it really applies to A4 and up though. Frankly I'm not that concerned about it. I doubt that owners of lemon law BMWs or Mercedes took much consolation in the "purity" of their broken cars.
I'm also not so sure that Audi's build costs are much if any lower than BMW's, at least as far as the high-end models are concerned. RS cars always cost a lot more than M or AMG models, and I don't think that's just Audi trying to make more profit.
I don't think that's a fair assessment. Not every one of your posts is going to get a reply. Not every one of my posts is going to get a reply. I usually read just about every last post, and if I have something to add then I will.
Now, what do you all think of the upcoming 5-series? I've seen the pics, and it looks like a mix between 7, e39 5-series, and e90 3series.
That's pretty much how I see it. 7 series rear, enlarged 3 series front. The side profile isn't much to look at. The big improvement is on the inside. They've done a very good job at retaining most of the luxury feel from the 7. On that front, the new 5 absolutely blows the E class out of the water, it's not even a contest.
The HS does absolutely nothing for me. It's basically a Camry hybrid with styling that's even more bland than the Camry. The interior just barely qualifies as a luxury car, and the fuel economy really isn't all that great. If you want a car that looks and drives like a Corolla and gets mpg in the low to mid 30s, why not just buy a Corolla? I don't get it.
As you know all too well, this isn't anything new with Toyota/Lexus. Toyota often represents the better value between the two. Same with Acura/Honda. Mercury/Ford.
In the case of the HS, there is indeed an actual Toyota counterpart called the SAI that is to be released in Japan first. Here it is.
Toyota has received about 14,000 orders for its new SAI hybrid that will go on sale in Japan on Dec. 7. The amount is roughly five times the monthly sales target of 3,000 units that Toyota set for the hybrid sedan.
The Toyota SAI, priced at 3,380,000 yen ($37,270 USD) for the entry level S version, was unveiled at the 2009 Tokyo Motor Show. The model is a rebadged version of the Lexus HS 250h that is sold in the United States. Power comes from a 2.4L engine making 150-hp and 138 lb-ft of torque. It is mated to an electric motor that produces 140-hp and a peak torque of 199 lb-ft. The system uses both sources in the most efficient way, allowing for an available 187-hp. Fuel-economy is estimated at 35 mpg.
According to Reuters, hybrid cars have been enjoying strong sales in Japan thanks to government subsidies and exemption from certain taxes.
link title
It all goes to further show that many consumers (even in Japan) are motivated to go the hybrid route, whether motivated by subsidies, tax incentives, environmental benefits, or just the improved fuel efficiency.
Now, just to be clear... Just because I have referenced the success of the HS in earlier posts doesn't mean that I have any interest in an HS, nor do I think it is anything to crow about, but I do find the sales numbers to be a further indication that the public is continuing to embrace hybrids in larger numbers... and apparently larger than expected.
Oh... and regarding the new 5-Series... Based upon the pics, I'm not sure I like the lines of the front hood. A real-life view might change my mind. The car doesn't excite me, but I do think the rear is an improvement and the interior looks upscale. The front is more of the same old look that's starting to bore me a bit. And I hate to say that as a BMW owner, but it's true.
TM
If anything Japan's consumers are the most motivated to go the hybrid route. They've had hybrids for far longer than the rest of the world, and much of their driving is in cities where hybrid powertrains are most efficient.
TM
Or in another case, we see a post and have nothing in mind to say, then replying with "hmm, I don;t know" or "Sorry, have no comment about it" will only add to the spam line, so I completely understand (heck, I do that too, for instance I rarely reply in political discussions).
What I was trying to tell bmlexus here is: nobody's ignoring anyone here, so don't take it personally. :shades:
Back on topic:
Yeah I heard the same about hybrids in Europe. But I'm not sure, I doubt it'll take over their love for diesels. They're far more informed about the pros and cons of hybrid batteries and stuff, so diesel is probably still considered the more environmentally friendly choice. And they're more enviro concerned than the Americans.
I second that emotion
Hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving, or as it's known in other countries, Thursday.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
Share your vehicle reviews
Exactly! While our idiotic U.S. manufacturers were selling and investing in heavy artillery, the Asians were investing in the future.
We went Bankrupt while they are holding their own, except for Toyota, which recent history proves the initial reaction to a drastic issue paints the path for the public perceptions to follow. Add that to the slips of late for Toyota, and the driver is missing some shifts!
Doesn't any of these conglomerates study historical massive recall strategy?
Mr. Toyoda, ever hear of the "Tylenol Scare"? Check the brand loyalty that resulted directly from the correct response to a drastic quality event for J&J.
I can't believe a company can get so confused to let these things happen! GM/Chrysler all over again!
Lost Passion for CARS!
Regards,
OW
However, I don't see any posts all about politics, so I don't know what you and the host are talking about on that one.
You may not be as interested as some of us about the hybrid/electric powertrain alternatives that I have recently posted about... how they are going to increasingly enter the lux market, but I think I should forewarn you that, as they relate to the lux segment, I will be increasingly posting more and more evidence to support my perspective... which is that there will be hybrids/electrics in the lux segment and that they will be succussful.
That said, consider this evidence...
AMG has announced and confirmend that they will build an all-electric SLS AMG. And for any of you guys that still think that hybrids and electrics won't ultimately deliver the performance, try this on for size...
The electric SLS AMG will deliver 526-hp and a peak torque 649 lb-ft., with a 0 to 60 mph time in just 4 seconds.
Here's more convincing evidence...
According to Mercedes sales chief Klaus Mair, every fifth Mercedes-Benz to be built by the year 2015 will have hybrid technology. Mair says that if the legal framework doesn’t see any significant change, 20 percent of Mercedes-Benz fleet will be hybrid.
A couple of you gentlemen might be stubborn, but eventually all of you will agree with me on this one... LOL. :shades:
TM
Personally, I believe Toyota will recover, and be a better company several years from now. And, I think they might have actually learned their lesson.
Also interesting, you can check the archives and you will see my posts predicting VW's growth. And now that VW is number one... what do you think about their future?
TM
However, some of the new VW designs have been turning my head and that's a big change. The future could be bright if they continue their current design strategy.
Now, considering the quality issues, those perceptions linger on afaic. JDPower cites abysmal predicted reliability and middle of the road initial quality ratings for 2009 VW 2009 VW JDPower
I still would not take the plunge on a VW...same as GM in my book.
Regards,
OW
please elaborate on how my description of most US BMW drivers is "highly inaccurate".
BMW is an aspirational brand for young professionals and those who would like to be seen as young, professionals. The majority of big Bimmers in the US are leased and the lessor is on a three year tread mill of never building any equity. Because of the (artificially) high residuals, the renter almost has to re-up for another lease when his three year rental agreement is up. There is in all probability a high correlation between "owning" a high end condo and "owning" (actually, probably renting) a BMW. Neither one requires much cash to get into and once in you look good. This may not be as true in Canada but my observations do hold in the States.
Did I miss anything?
I'll bet those lease numbers really plummeted this year along with the total sales.
Higher Lease Percentages
Makers of luxury vehicles typically get a higher percentage of sales from leases. About 20 percent of U.S. new-vehicle sales were leases this year through July 20, according to J.D. Power & Associates. The market-research firm's Power Information Network said such contracts were 55 percent of sales at Daimler AG's Mercedes-Benz, 43 percent at Toyota Motor Corp.'s Lexus and 42 percent at General Motors Corp.'s Cadillac.
Full Article: BMW Tries to Reduce Leases From 60% of Its U.S. Sales
Just like the high-end McMansion mortgage/ownership fell like a House of Cards when the banks failed on the Global Real Estate Leverage Ponzi Scheme last year, now the Merc, BMW and Lexus will be driven by owners with true wealth vs. posers!
Regards,
OW
When I look at the JD Power chart, it looks more like slightly less than average predicted reliability to me. I don't think that is "abysmal" by any stretch, and I don't have as much of an issue with average.
According to Consumer Reports, however, "VW and Audi are staging a nice recovery", with exception of the Audi Q7 and the VW Toureg, which are terribly unreliable.
Back to the JD Power ratings, I noticed that they have actually given awards to 5 of the VW models... so I'm not about to classify VW as being the same as GM, as you have done.
I'm glad to read that you also like the direction that VW is headed and, yes, I do agree that they need to pay close attention to the quality so they can continue "staging a nice recovery", as CR puts it.
VW Concept BlueSport...
VW L1 Diesel Hybrid Concept...
TM
By the early 1950s, entrepreneur Friedrich Flick had amassed a substantial stake in Auto Union and in 1958 he managed to attract Daimler-Benz AG as a majority partner. In 1964, Volkswagen bought control of Auto Union from Daimler.
Yes, one of many great business moves by Daimler-Benz. They have always failed when it comes to acquisitions in the automotive world. Lost Auto Union, but gained Chrysler...and I could had a V8 (tomato juice).
A small clean diesel would be an excellent component in a hybrid powertrain. The VW L1 concept is a great example of that application... it is expected to achieve 170 mpg.
Here's some more info... link title
and here's a great photo gallery...
link title
I would give serious consideration to buying an L1 if it were to actually become available.
TM
That's pretty much exactly what Top Gear did with their "Hammerhead-i Eagle Thrust" diesel electric car in last week's show. They took an off the shelf diesel generator, and used it to charge the batteries that powered the electric motor in their car. The Eagle Thrust was intended to be a joke of course, but the concept makes a lot of sense. That's how diesel electric trains work.
You can see Autocar's review of the Top Gear creation here:
http://www.autocar.co.uk/VideosWallpapers/Videos.aspx?AR=245230&CT=V
As well as an interesting video comparing most of the high mileage diesels and hybrids:
http://www.autocar.co.uk/VideosWallpapers/Videos.aspx?AR=243718&Page=3&CT=V
link title
The plot thickens...
TM
Failed financial executives
As people whose life is going nowhere but down
As high end condo owners(nothing wrong with that IMO--singles and business traveller may not have time for house maintenace chores)
As posers and nothing but else but posers
Subruban SUV drivers
Owning horses
Owning boats
Having a net worth that even King Midas would envy
These notions above are just your notions and nothing else. It has nothing to do with reality.
You want proof? Why dont I just give an example here of BMW owners/lessors(former or current)
Howard
Clembo
Designman
Tagman
Lexusguy's wife
Hemi
Ciclew
Myself
My wife
None and I repeat none of the people above fits into your notions of BMW drivers. Not one. And among the dozens of other forum members here that I did not mention above that owned or own BMWs does not fit into your BMW notions. Not even PP or PooPoo or whatever that forum member's name was. Even your good buddy Brightness04 who owned BMW 5 Series fits neatly into your description of BMW drivers.
As Buddha once said "Our notions is what distances ourselves from reality".
in Canada Priuses are sold in different packages from the USA.
When I bought mine back in July I dont remember seeing the packages you mentioned. Maybe there were such packages and if there were they did not interest me.
When I bought my Prius I bought it with a Premium package + the solar sun roof.
This was an advantage to me since I wanted nothing to do with that lane change/self park technology. Passivity is fine when I am sitting in a movie theatre without a high school date or a mistress. But as a driver I do want to be a bit more active even if that involves driving a Prius.
Wheels can always be added later, however, but I'm not so sure that wiring the LED lights and fog lights is possible or not, because it could depend upon the interior switching and the wiring harness. Oh well, not that big a problem I guess.
I mentioned the idea of getting a Prius to my family, and unfortunately I got nearly zero support, which kind of surprised me... my son thinks the car is kind of cool, but the wife and daughter both gave me one of those "looks", and made a few unpleasant remarks. If I ever decide to get one, I'll either have to come up with a strategy, or just do it anyway.
BTW, I'll be going to the LA Auto Show later in the week, and there are supposed to be a long list of debuts for North America as well as several world debuts. Should be fun.
TM
Thanks much for this enlightening article. I sent it to friends and relatives that own a Lexus or a Toyota vehicle. I am now pretty convinced that it has nothing to do with floor mats depressing the accelerator and everything to do with electronics and computers in vehicles. They better get their act together or else!
BTW, our RX450h has been fantastic. My wife and I like pretty much everything about it. It is fun to drive and especially fun to see what gas mileage we get on each trip. We have been averaging about 29 in the city and 28 on the highway. My wife has a heavier foot than I have when driving this car. She does not obey that rules of driving a hybrid very well. She gets about 27 in the city while I usually get about 32.
Man I really miss the "you know what" discussions here. I attempted to post on the Stock Market Forum, but no one else is really interested it seems to me. We have not heard from Len in ages. I know that he is quite upset about the new rules. We were one happy family here not too long ago, but those days are now gone. I hope things are going well for you and everyone else here. I see that Dewey is still happy with his Prius.
I am glad to see you back here, in spite of the ultra rigid rules. It is indeed sad what happened to us here. Let's try to make a point of meeting at the Stock Market Forum on occassion, and perhaps Len will find us there in the future. He often gets busy and doesn't post, so even though he is also upset with the rigid rules, let's not write him off just yet. I'll post one there after this just to warm it up a bit.
At some point my wife's Acura MDX will get to the end of its life, but I don't think we have reached that point yet. When we do, I guess I will have to suggest that she try the RX Hybrid. I am sick of shelling out so much money for gasoline every year. I recently did the math and it is frightening how much we spend on the nasty guzzoline.
Your high praise of the vehicle is simply impossible to ignore. Also, a Toyota Highlander Hybrid might be worth checking out, but I think she will want a vehicle that is more upscale like your RX.
I can't quite determine if Toyota is skirting the real issue, and if it is in fact with the electronics. It's hard to completely trust Toyota's position on this, yet I don't want to blast them too harshly, as they do put a lot of energy into reliability. Perhaps they just don't know what to do under these circumstances... or... maybe they don't want to lose any more money than they have to.
One thing for sure... if Toyota is ultimately seen as having a "cover-up" mentality and approach, it will seriously backfire on them.
(BTW, the Dubai situation might have a further negative impact tomorrow... I definitely hope not, but there's no way to predict any of this stuff. Of course, we can chat about it on the "other" forum.)
TM
World Debuts:
2010 Cadillac CTS Coupe
2010 Dodge Viper SRT10 ACR
Honda Personal-Neo Urban Transport
Porsche Boxster Spyder
2011 Toyota Sienna
North American Debuts:
Audi e-tron Concept
2011 Audi R8 Spyder 5.2 FSI
2010 BMW ActiveHybrid 7
2010 BMW ActiveHybrid X6
BMW Vision EfficientDynamics Concept
2011 Buick Regal
2011 Chevrolet Cruze
2011 Chevrolet Volt
2010 Ford Fiesta
2010 Hyundai Tucson
2010 Jaguar XJ
2010 Kia Sorento
2011 Lexus LFA
Lexus LF-Ch Compact Hybrid Concept
2010 Mazda2
Mercedes-Benz B-Class F-Cell
2010 Mercedes-Benz E350 Bluetec
2010 Mercedes-Benz S400 Hybrid
2011 Mercedes-Benz SLS AMG
Mini Coupe Concept
Mini Roadster Concept
Mitsubishi PX-MiEV
Morgan Aero SuperSports
2010 Porsche 911 GT3 RS
2010 Porsche 911 Turbo
2011 Rolls-Royce Ghost
Subaru Hybrid Tourer Concept
2010 Subaru Impreza WRX STI Special-Edition
Toyota Prius Plug-in Hybrid Concept
Volkswagen L1 Concept
2010 Volvo C30
2010 Volvo C70
Sweet.
TM
BTW, the upcoming A1 is still supposed to be unavailable in the U.S.... darn... I like that little car.
So much happening with Audi... it's awesome. Sure wish the "Doc" was here so we could give him a deserved dose of "We told you so"...
TM
Now, I would consider your purchasing a Lexus in your family a revolutionary event :surprise: . Seriously though, I think that your wife would really like it a lot. Filling up at the pump SO infrequently would make her even happier.
Yes, the Toyota executives are probably wrecking their brains over this sudden acceleration issue these days. But to me it makes a lot of sense that it is much more than just floor mats causing the problem.
That yellow Auid S4 has become a short term infatuation.
The most exciting technological marvels in the auto industry will not be in the high end no more. Traditionally the newest features began in upscale cars and then moved downward. Today and tomorrow that is not the case. The Nissan Leaf is the car I want next. A hybrid MB or hybvrid Lexus next year will look ancient when compared to this new Nissan Leaf. My Prius will look ancient too but at least my obsolescene will not involve BIG $$$ like a hybrid Benz or a hybrid Lexus.
The LA show sounds interesting. I cant wait for the the Toronto Auto SHow and hopefully I will be able to see the Nissan Leaf.
So yourr exicted to see the new Buick Regal in LAl? Nope I dont envy you in this case.
TM
Nissan is really going out on a limb (that has Leafs on it... haha) with the new Leaf. Here it is...
Here's a new upcoming Prius crossover, just for you... remember that "Prius" will be a new marque representing several hybrid models in the very near future...
More info on this Prius crossover here...link title
So your exicted to see the new Buick Regal in LA?
Hahaha... you are funny... no interest in a new Buick, but I am glad that the new VW L1 will be there.
TM
Now it's captioned as a Prius Crossover?
Anyways I love the styling but I have a feeling this styling will remain conceptual and not be mass volume produced.
Yes it does. But, sorry, Dewey, I thought you were Vulcan... being that you are from another land and all that.
edit... oops, there we go with the speed typing and speed editing again. Until actual production, it is just a concept, and concepts rarely ever make it to production without someone making them even worse.
TM
I have relatives who live and work now in Silicon Valley and are in the process of establishing their own start up. Good luck to them.
Unfortunately, neither Buddha nor I said the things you said I said.
Specifically,
a) I never said that BMW drivers were "failed financial executives", "people whose life is going nowhere but down", or "as posers (sic) and nothing but else (sic) but posers".
Not only did I not say these things, they do not accurately portray the US Bimmer driver.
What I did say was that Bimmer was an aspirational status symbol for young professionals and for those who would be like to be seen as young professionals.
b) The statement about the income of Suburban owners was not my "notion". I wish it had been because it is insightful and maybe even counter-intuitive. Rather I cited GM research done years ago that said that Chevy Suburban owners had the highest income and net worth of all GM customers. GM's explanation was that they had toys they needed hauled around.
The Canadian economy is in many ways different from the US. My observations were based on the US and I am sure do not apply to Canada with the same validity. Your society is far more traditonal than ours, consumer credit is harder to come by, only we in the US have NINJA (no income, no job, no assets) loans, etc.
Driving a Bimmer is equivalent to a laid off bank president that has nowhere to go but down?
Maybe I must have mis-read what you are trying to say.
Or maybe not. :P
.
All the specs and tons of pics here, including the incredible interior ... link title
This could very well set a new benchmark for the category... IMHO.
TM
Quite a machine. The front end is softer and closer to the current car than I expected, given the very angular concept. The interior is fantastic. It's surprisingly close to the A7 concept interior from last year, but actually pushes further ahead in some places. The A7 concept had an evolution of the current MMI layout, but the A8 has a complete redesign. It looks very elegant, but seems like the buttons might be a bit small. I'll have to try it out. The touch sensitive preset controls are an interesting design choice, as is the analog clock. I don't think Audi has ever done that before. I wonder if it's a direct response to the S-class.
I love the mix of wood and piano black gloss trim on the console, but I'm not sure yet about the new shifter. It's definitely preferable to BMW's awful thing and the Jag hockey puck, but it's still a little weird.
I don't see myself going back to a full-size car, but if I were, this is what I would buy. Oh, and note to Acura: the A8 has far more capabilities and technology than anything you make, and yet Audi has managed to avoid plastering 50 buttons on the steering wheel and 100 buttons on the console. Maybe there's a lesson here.
I will take a close look at the new Jaguar XJ when I go to the LA Auto Show. Initially, based upopn pics and video I haven't been as impressed as I hoped, but I like Jags (still own one) and I will check it out, and let you know my impressions.
TM
Personally, I have to say: unimpressed. Compared to the outgoing model there's less muscular look to it, and even less elegance. The sloping rear end makes it look kinda droopy, and the "eyeliner" LEDs seem like an afterthought with crashing elbow shape. Too many misplaced sharp lines. Not what I expect from an Audi. Are they running out of ideas or something? :confuse:
The interior is nice though, but looks pretty much similar to the current model isn;t it?
@Pavarotti:
I totally dislike the new XJ inside out. It's a damnation to what used to be such a sleek looking classic (04-09 XJ). I prefer the XF anytime over the new XJ.
Regards,
Jose
(A triple poseur, by the way. I liked driving the 530d, I like driving the 335d, and my wife likes driving the 118d. For the record. :shades: )
I don't see it as less muscular. I was expecting something a bit more aggressive than what was delivered, but I still think its a good evolution of the current theme. I suspect that Audi will go farther with the A6.
There are two versions of the headlights. The standard xenon lights look normal, while the full LED one is a bit strange. Like the exterior, the interior is an evolution of the current car, with the exception of the state of the art MMI system and the "interesting" shifter. This car is packed with some amazing technology, and their attention to the smallest details is more obsessive than ever. It makes the LS460 look like a backwater. Audi has also really cranked up the luxury for the rear passengers.
1998 BMW 323i
2007 BMW 335i
2006 BMW 530xi Touring
OK the third car does not count since that is my wife's car. So I guess that makes me only a double poseur.
But at least I win the prize for being an environmental poseur with my Prius. The inconvenient truth is that even Al Gore doesn't even drive a 2010 Prius yet. My house is more energy efficient than his house. Also unlike his house we grow our own cucumbers so the planet can be saved from fuel consuming trucks transporting cucumbers.