Luxury Lounge

lexusguy

Not a bad refresh.

Eh. The rear end is a definite improvement over the current car, but the rest of the design is pretty bland. It's basically a 3 series set on "enlarge". BMW has definitely stepped up their interior game though, it's far better inside than the 2010 E class. I'm curious to see if Audi can keep up.

dewey

OK here's where I do agree with you:

Americans do want hybrids in cars that feel familiar and big enough for their needs.

And here's where I disagree with you:

What you are saying is not necessarily applicable to the luxury segment. Many luxury car buyers like the exhaust sounds of their German performance cars. Once most cars become electrified that exhaust sound will become exclusively rare and a treat for those who can still afford spending money on a large tank of gas. Rarity, scarcity is what defines high end luxury. The Swiss watchmaker is a redundant profession but still thrives because people still want to buy a less punctual watch than a $5 quartz watch. Luxury is not only about scarcity but it is also about our irrational urges to make a statement to others. Similarily luxury cars may end up being defined by the inefficiency of their drivetrains since efficiency itself will become such a middle class concern.

Oh yes and I also agree with you about the Prius.

tagman

The lux segment is a tricky one, indeed... but even many luxury buyers will be thrilled to get a hybrid as long as it retains the kind of luxury they are after, and doesn't attempt to "stick it to 'em" like the the Lexus LS600h. In contrast, the new Lexus HS is a lower end lux vehicle, but it is selling like hotcakes. There is no doubt that there is a market there in the lux segment for hybrid vehicles. There is currently a discovery process in place.

Hybrid vehicles don't have to be anemic in performance. In fact, they can have more performance than their counterparts because they can add the extra power of the electric motors. There is a sweet spot between fuel efficiency and performance that will ultimately find its way to the marketplace. Currently hybrids are still often seen as poor performers, but that will change as the products evolve and improve in the performance.

As the production of hybrids increases, the hybrid price premium will decrease as well. They will be much more commonplace and I have little doubt that Mercedes, BMW, Audi and Lexus will do well selling hybrids. Give it all a few more years and then let's see what happens.

And, of course, the Prius name will be a marque instead of a single model, and there will be bigger and more powerful Prius models to choose from.

Glad you are enjoying yours... I am envious.

TM

borno

You are killing me...kidding. where is the purist in you all? I agree with all your points, and would prefer an audi as well, but i really enjoy a manuel tranny on a daily basis. If i were crazy enough,(pretty crazy as you've seen) I'd go for a S5 cab to replace my adored steel grey, w/imola red int., m3conv., and get an a6,4.2 for car pooling and winter ski trips.

Seriously, i'd like to be buried in my m3, but need to replace my 00 A6,2.7T6sp., with something I can enjoy(stick), economically speaking, a used S6 makes good sense, but I'd miss the stick. That's why I like the gts. I know i need counseling, but i've been struggling with this for some time.

I really like the newer technology coming out; ie hard drive based nav, active anti roll control led front and rear accents, briefly thought about the 2010tl with a Stick, a little small/pricey for what u get.

suppose the S6 is still the best all-round option, can't expect to eat my cake and have it too. on another note, i'll start thinking about replacing thew wife's sienna, 04ltd w/awd, with the new(buy it used in a year or two) 2010acura mdx, best bang for the buck, and will need suv type for bikes/kayaks etc.

anyway, would love to grab 2010 s4, with stick, but too small so, stuck between a rock and a whatever that saying is.....

you all never commented on my color questions. have had greys and silvers for a while, and don't like black...thinking white with black int, of back to the quartz grey. like the blue but not many around.

also, what trade off would you make for price.mileage. what would be the highest mileage 07 you'd consider if you were in the market? for example saw a 07 with 42K , asking $48K, as well as 07s with 20isk miles for $53kish. most of the 08s jump into the upper $50s too much$$. I'll keep looking there should be more and more of these on the market soon.

sorry, can't get into the hybrid mode yet, still like raw natural power!

thanks for you help

dewey

Thanks! Interestingly when I drove BMWs I would get many comments from other fellows about my car especially when I bought one during it's first model year.

Now the only people who compliment my Prius are females and only females. My son when he becomes a teenager will definitely beg me to borrow my chick magnet. While my daughter when she becomes a teenager will definitely want drive my wife's BMW 5 series instead of the Prius.

dewey

A manual stick in a GTS Cayenne?

Interesting notion but in all honesty I have diffulty seeing myself shifting my own gears in any car that is bigger than a BMW 5 series. The smaller the car, the more intersting a stick becomes. Well at least for me.

tagman

Personally, the idea of a manual Cayenne is more ridiculous than a Cayenne itself. I agree with you that the manual is more interesting in a smaller car. If it's not going to be in a small vehicle it at least needs to be in a vehicle with supreme balance... not an SUV or truck. That's probably why I liked the manual much more in my previous Lotus than in my previous Ferrari... the Lotus was smaller and lighter... and tons more fun to drive.

My BMW 135i twin turbo is still going strong with its manual tranny. And while I do think I think I could see myself in an M3, I'd probably first give an Audi serious consideration.

An R8 is still my number one pick. Yet I can't shake the withdrawal from the Lotus, and it's been a few years already. I don't miss the Carrera much at all, and it's only been less than a year since I sold it.

TM

lexusguy

An R8 is still my number one pick. Yet I can't shake the withdrawal from the Lotus, and it's been a few years already. I don't miss the Carrera much at all, and it's only been less than a year since I sold it.

What are your thoughts on the Evora? It seems like that might be a nice compromise between the Elise and the R8, and its gotten a couple of rave reviews from Clarkson, most recently in his "Duel" DVD. The one thing I don't like about it is the weak Lotus tuned Toyota engine that makes less horsepower than an IS350.

My guess is the low power is on purpose. The Evora will most likely be around for more than a decade, and to keep interest going for it, they will slowly crank up the power over time. A couple of years from now there will be an Evora 300, then an Evora 320S, then maybe a supercharged Evora 350, etc.

clembo

What you are saying is not necessarily applicable to the luxury segment. Many luxury car buyers like the exhaust sounds of their German performance cars. Once most cars become electrified that exhaust sound will become exclusively rare and a treat for those who can still afford spending money on a large tank of gas. Rarity, scarcity is what defines high end luxury. The Swiss watchmaker is a redundant profession but still thrives because people still want to buy a less punctual watch than a $5 quartz watch. Luxury is not only about scarcity but it is also about our irrational urges to make a statement to others.

Dewey - very good description of why many of us buy these types of cars. It is an irrational decision - I love my A8 but a Honda Accord would still get me to and from most journeys just as effectively and I could have saved $60K. At some point in life the Want vs. Need decisions come into play if finances allow, at that point things like nice cars, swiss watches, crazy stereos etc become fun hobby's.

rockshocka1

Currently hybrids are still often seen as poor performers, but that will change as the products evolve and improve in the performance.

...Give it all a few more years and then let's see what happens.

I still think we are a good generation away from widespread acceptance of luxury hybrids, IMO. Can't shake the feeling that the current luxury buyer anticipating a true luxo-hybrid is in the minority.

Perhaps when hybrids become a fixture in motorsports, the trickle down in performance & bragging rights will help lure the luxury hybrid buyers of the future?

BTW, glad you stuck around Tag, thought you're abrubt adios awhile back might have been the end to your posting here.

tagman

What are your thoughts on the Evora?

A tremendous step in the right direction for Lotus, and from what I have read, there will be more good news to come from Lotus. You are absolutely right about the power being cranked up over a long period of time. From what Lotus has announced so far, it is fairly clear that Lotus will remain faithful to that approach, and we can expect the Evora to get more and more power and the usual tweaks over the course of many years ahead.

Lotus made an interesting decision earlier this year regarding the pre-SC Elise models... they decided to make the SC components available as a kit to perfectly retrofit those earlier non SC models. That was a cool move, IMO. It briefly made me think to pick up a good used one and retrofit it, but then I came to my senses... darn it.

TM

tagman

I still think we are a good generation away from widespread acceptance of luxury hybrids, IMO.

Widespread, maybe... but there is a huge unfulfilled market for hybrids that goes well past the Prius and Honda Civic Hybrid.

I will go on record here and stand firm that the lux hybrids will sell well if the products themselves are otherwise good.

The Lexus HS's overwhelming sales success, while more on the low end lux scale is still a strong indicator. It's strong sales have surpassed expectations.

It always surprises me how so many are "surprised" at the acceptance of certain cars. I used to be shocked at the statements that came from the auto industry when they said that the addition of mandatory safety equipment on vehicles would run up the price so much that no one would buy the vehicles. Instead, what we witnessed was the public choosing to purchase vehicles with airbags, and opting to add rear curtains, when optionally available. Now we see this as SOP.

It should come as no shock that people want safe, fuel efficient cars... and they want them in all the market segments, including the lux segment. The age demographics of the lux segment also point to this. In fact, Lexus itself is a testimony to that fact.

So, I maintain there is plenty of room in the lux segment for hybrids.

BTW, glad you stuck around Tag, thought you're abrubt adios awhile back might have been the end to your posting here.

Thanks for that... I must admit that I almost threw in the towel. My apologies to all.

TM

jlbl

TM, I am with rockshocka1, clembo & dewey in this one. I think a luxury car needs more than the existing "volt" technology to get the surplus of nerve & muscle necessary for a car to be lux and in addition classy. The metaphor of Swiss mechanical watches is a good one, IMO. Notice I am not against hybrids, yet they have to prove their sporty excellence and that I do not think will happen in the next years to come. But your statement is recorded. Time will say.

Regards,
Jose

(Not looking for a reply on this PS comment, but LHC is eventually working. Wait for the results!)

tagman

Jose,
You guys all know my long-standing position on the virtues of European car performance. So, I'm not changing my perspective. I love the performance and driving dynamics of the best European vehicles. And I have a long purchase history to prove it.

But, let's be realistic when we are talking about the lux catefory. It isn't all European any more anyway. Afterall, Lexus is the perfect example of how that category successfully includes vehicles without the priority being all about performance. The recent HS is just the tip of the iceberg. It is an overwhelming success that is beyond expectations. I just can't ignore that kind of thing, nor ignore the long history of Lexus success in the lux segment.

I am convinced that hybrids will find their place in the lux segment... yes, I am now on record saying this, and you are right that time will tell.

(I definitely noticed the news about the LHC, and look forward to it ramping up much more... hopefully there will be no black hole... LOL )

TM

circlew

Well, here is some Swiss watch performance in an all electric version!

2010 Tesla Roadster

Performance Specifications

Style 2-seat, open-top, rear-drive sports car

Drivetrain Single speed fixed gear with electrically actuated parking lock mechanism and mechanical lubrication pump

Motor 375 volt AC induction air-cooled electric motor with variable frequency drive.

Base: Output 248 peak horsepower (185kW) and 273 lb-ft (370 Nm) of torque. Redline at 14,000 rpm.

Sport: Output 288 peak horsepower (215kW) and 295 lb-ft (400 Nm) of torque. Redline at 14,000 rpm.

Chassis Resin-bonded and riveted extruded aluminum monocoque. Four-wheel independent suspension featuring upper and lower unequal length wishbones and co-axial coil spring telescopic dampers.

Brakes Hydraulically operated. Tandem master cylinder with vacuum servo and anti-lock braking system
.
Acceleration Base: 0 to 60 mph in 3.9 seconds

Sport: 0 to 60 mph in 3.7 seconds

Top Speed 125 mph (electronically limited)

Range 244 miles

Expected Battery Life Seven years or 100,000 miles.

Battery Custom microprocessor-controlled lithium-ion battery with 6,831 individual cells.

Full Charge About 3.5 hours using the Tesla Motors Home Connector at 240 Volts and 70 amps.

Price: $101,500

Regards,
OW

tagman

Terrific example of awesome performance stats without the conventional powertrain. Thank you. And all the while supplying Tesla with the vehicle (without powertrain) Lotus is reportedly working on their own electric. Although, not your typical luxury vehicle.

MBZ, BMW, Audi, and Lexus will deliver the goods. As you so clearly pointed out, the possibilities are much greater (and even better) than many expect.

Expect great things!

TM

circlew

Exactly!

Now I'm hoping for 4 in-wheel electric motors to drive the wheels of an R-8 or similar car.

Inhalation for any comers!

Audi is likely to spoil the supercar party for both its archrivals at the Frankfurt Motor Show. BMW and Mercedes-Benz will unveil the Vision EfficientDynamics Concept and the SLS AMG respectively at the show but had not been counting on Audi's so-called e-Tron being there.

Adamant that no leaks or teasers will be seen before the official presentation next week, Audi executives will now be tightening security around the car more than ever after these leaked concept files found their way to our offices. Its overall profile is pure R8 but it has a different front grille, LED headlights, wheels and rear end. The interior is also very different and features a completely driver-biased centre console with two screens; one for the rear view camera and one showing a navigation map.

Interest is gaining momentum and the company's own ElectricityUntamed.com site is not helping the situation one bit.

Officially the e-Tron does not exist. However rumours and these pictures say it does, and that its powertrain is based on either the hybrid or 100% electric model. The former would fall in line with BMW's Vision EfficientDynamics Concept while the latter would put it on par with the confirmed SLS AMG eDrive which has a combined output of 392kW (533hp) and 880Nm of torque.



Regards,
OW

lexusguy

Expected Battery Life Seven years or 100,000 miles.

There's nothing Swiss watch about that at all. Battery lifespan is a serious problem that must be dealt with before a purely electric car (or even a car that depends heavily on its batteries, like the Volt) can gather mass acceptance.

The 125mph top speed is also not going to impress a Porsche or Ferrari owner.

lexusguy

Officially the e-Tron does not exist. However rumours and these pictures say it does, and that its powertrain is based on either the hybrid or 100% electric model. The former would fall in line with BMW's Vision EfficientDynamics Concept while the latter would put it on par with the confirmed SLS AMG eDrive which has a combined output of 392kW (533hp) and 880Nm of torque.

The rumor mill says that the e-Tron will evolve into a production R4, with the electric drivetrain intact.

bmlexus

For your color question, I'd say stick with silver or grey which is my color of choice.
But as you mentioned, I myself had grey and silver for a while and since you'd want a change I'd suggest black, but since you don't like black, can't suggest anything.

bmlexus

May I suggest the X6 over the cayenne gts, but the only problem is, its not stick and most of the users here hate the x6!

bmlexus

The Lexus HS's overwhelming sales success, while more on the low end lux scale is still a strong indicator. It's strong sales have surpassed expectations.

How well are the HS being sold? Whats the price of a well equipped HS?

How reliable are these hybrids? I have never taken interest in these hybrids, but I am beginning to like the HS, I hope lexus would make these kinds of cars for their non hybrid models in the near future.

bmlexus

Does any1 know what bmw has done with the new 5 series?

The front looks like a 3 series and the rear looks similar to the new 7 series.

Where has the 5 series gone? The good thing is they have given the new 5 a very nice interior similar to 7 series...

tagman

"The 125mph top speed is also not going to impress a Porsche or Ferrari owner."

The 0-60 in 3.7 seconds will impress everyone. But it doesn't matter anyway. The vast majority of the lux segment is not comprised of Porsche or Ferrari owners. And the vast majority of lux drivers have zero interest in driving over 125 mph. The lux segment can easily accomodate hybrids that will have an impressive and luxurious driving dynamics as well as superior fuel economy. It can and will happen.

TM

dewey

Daimler's chief executive, said in a recent interview that he believes Mercedes has a varied enough product mix to appeal to a wide range of premium car buyers but acknowledges a growing interest among many consumers in luxury that's "less loud, more stylish, perhaps more modest but not necessarily cheaper."

Rationalizing irrationality is what luxury is all about.

For instance look at the quote above. Reading the paragraph above will give anybody whose logical a migraine.

Buying something expensive in order to get something more modest?
Buying something more stylish in order to get something that is less loud?

The only high style that is not loud is "form following function" styling. Not styling by the dictates of focus groups independent of function as Mercedes Benz and all other luxury auto makers are doing today.

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dewey

I had humbly predicted years ago that BMW would become the NUMBER ONE luxury car marque in USA..

Ok enough of my chest thumping boasts.

Here's something I did not predict.

Three years ago, Audi was losing many more car owners to Lexus than it was luring from the Japanese premium car maker, meaning many buyers saw Audi as a steppingstone to a bigger, higher-end Lexus model.

This year, though, three times as many former Lexus owners have switched to Audi as the other way around, according to R.L. Polk & Co., an automotive-research firm.

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dewey

The thrill of shifting your own gears.
The exhaust noise of acceleration.

The CVT's and silence of battery power will obliterate any interest among most car enthusiasts for a hybrid.

The Lexus HS sales are nothing to boast about especially since almost any auto except maybe the Pontiac Aztec will have stellar sales performance during their first few months of first edition model introductions.

If luxury performance is your priority buy a BMW or an Audi.
If fuel efficieny is your priority buy a Prius.
If buying the blandest looking car possible and which falls short on both performance and fuel efficiency then definitely get a Lexus HS. In that case there is no better car than the Lexus HS.

circlew

I think he was stating that the current trends speak to ostentatious being out and understated being in where Luxo goods go.

Looking at the sales of Luxury cars, the change is quite evident of late.

Regards,
OW

tagman

If luxury performance is your priority buy a BMW or an Audi.
If fuel efficieny is your priority buy a Prius.

Agree, but there is more to the equation. For example, consider that Lexus is successful at selling luxury cars without the high level of performance. Your choice only covers number 3 and 4... So, I will provide a more complete list...

1. Luxury.
2. Performance.
3. Fuel efficiency..
4. Luxury and performance.
5. Luxury and fuel efficiency.
6. Performance and fuel efficiency.
7. Luxury and performance and fuel efficiency.

In order to satisfy the market, such as guys like me... more vehicles like number 5, 6, and 7 are on the way... expect great things!

TM

dewey

I think he was stating that the current trends speak to ostentatious being out and understated being in where Luxo goods go.

Sorry but that just is not going to work. Show me one single human being out there who buys a Mercedes as an act of modesty. The market focus groups are dictating to Mercedes Benz that opinions today are anti-luxury. The market focus groups in the early 80s dictated to Cadillac that the Cimarron would be the "it car" for the moment since tastes back then became more humble.

The MB brand is luxury. Modesty will kill it.
And please let's not even talk about SMART cars . What a misnomer. They should be re-labelled as STUPID.

dewey

Here's my one word answer to your numbers 5 ,6 and 7.

Diesel.

The performance of a BMW 335d or a Audi A4 TDI makes a Lexus HS look like a Grandma's rocking chair in terms of driving dynamics.

circlew

Agree on the Smart...err, I mean STUPID!

Cannon said that the extraordinary growth in the luxury market over the past decade, as well as the current environment that confronts the luxury market, are a result of significant shifts in the consumer mindset. He attributed growth over the past decade to two consumer driven phenomenon: "rocketing" - where a consumer spends a disproportionate amount of income on a product or service that is important to him or her - inflating the low end; and a "status arms race" - where the higher echelons of affluent consumers vie to differentiate themselves - driving the high end.

While both these trends have temporarily "run out of fuel," Cannon says that luxury buyers are still spending but they are being more selective and spending in fewer categories.

Based on information from its online owner community "MB Advisors," Cannon said that Mercedes buyers are employing a myriad of "coping strategies," including scrutinizing expenses and consumption as never before, taking tighter control of household finances, staying home more and eating out less. Anecdotally, Cannon said, "One of our owners has adopted what she calls her '24-hour rule.' She still loves to shop but she waits 24 hours before she buys, which is her cooling off period. Most times, she doesn't go back." The surprise finding? "Many of the members of our community report that they're feeling more empowered - even somewhat happier - by virtue of getting more control over their finances and prioritizing what's important. They've taken the worst that the economy can throw at them and have gotten through it."

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Regards,
OW

reality2

Daimler's chief executive, said in a recent interview that he believes Mercedes has a varied enough product mix to appeal to a wide range of premium car buyers but acknowledges a growing interest among many consumers in luxury that's "less loud, more stylish, perhaps more modest but not necessarily cheaper."

Dieter just perfectly described the core values of Audi. I wonder if he is smart enough to figure that out? Maybe he should buy himself an Audi and be done with it.

tagman

Here's my one word answer to your numbers 5 ,6 and 7.

Diesel.

The performance of a BMW 335d or a Audi A4 TDI makes a Lexus HS look like a Grandma's rocking chair in terms of driving dynamics.

Dewey... It's good to be back posting with you here on this forum.

Yes, diesel.

Diesel is awesome, and there is no way you will forget the huge debates that I had with members of this forum regarding diesels, especially clean diesels. I think I was the biggest supporter of new clean diesels vs. hybrids here on the forum, and I argued with nearly everyone about it for a long time.

Then... one day... I posted a change to my perspective, and as I recall Charlie was shocked, and others wanted to know why after so much debate I changed my point of view in support of the hybrid alternative.

Hybrids are the path to all electric and integrate nicely with the existing and transitioning infrastructure as well. In addition, the American consumer has an serious aversion to diesel that goes a long way back. It seems that the diesel has many obstacles to overcome from a marketing standpoint, while the hybrid is viewed positively as an acceptable and future-oriented alternative. Further, the manufacturers are getting on the hybrid bandwagon because it has gained enough momentum to allow for
successful production and sales.

The industry and consumer mindset both support hybrid vehicles and possibly all-electrics moving forward, provided the driving range and charging times can be improved significantly.

Personally, I think a plug-in hybrid is the way to go, but we'll see. Technology has a way of instantly changing the game, so it's hard to say what discovery or invention will change everything down the road.

Anyway... you are right that diesel is great, but hybrid is more marketable and points towards the future. Again, I maintain that I expect them in the lux segment and believe they will be successful.

TM

tagman

Happy Thanksgiving to all the posters here.

I wish you all the very best life has to offer.

Expect great things.

TM

circlew

Happy Thanksgiving to All!

Here's another angle of the Audi E-Tron. Nice!!


Regards,
OW

ness201

im trying to purchase a 2000 rx300 with 141,876 miles on it... and im very scared to make the wrong decision so i was hoping someone can give me some advice.. im look this whole car search was a disaster ...

m4d_cow

It's basically saying that currently many luxury consumers prefer less flashy designs, which is true to some degree.

What's with this hybrid debate anyway?

bmlexus

:sick:

bmlexus

John McEleney, a dealer in Clinton, Iowa, said the recall should not damage Toyota's reputation for quality. Toyotas are more reliable and quieter than ever, and that's how most people judge quality, he said.

Recalls, he said, are inevitable when a manufacturer assembles thousands of parts to make a car or truck.

"They're such complicated machines. I think there's always going to be issues that become concerns from a safety standpoint," he said.

Tom Beck, a mechanic from Irwin, Pa., near Pittsburgh, said the recall and the possibility of sudden acceleration would not influence his decision to shop for a new Prius to replace a Honda Civic.

"I'm a mechanic," he said. "If something were to happen, I would just turn the key," Beck said.

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This could really change my decision of buying a toyota lexus.

dewey

Maybe he should buy himself an Audi and be done with it.

Forget Dieter, in fact Daimler Benz itself used to be a majority owner of what is now called Audi.

By the early 1950s, entrepreneur Friedrich Flick had amassed a substantial stake in Auto Union and in 1958 he managed to attract Daimler-Benz AG as a majority partner. In 1964, Volkswagen bought control of Auto Union from Daimler.

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dewey

I have no disagreement with what you are saying.

The description below captures what will happen to the auto industry as electrical motors become standard features:

A number of carmakers and component companies are, for example, looking at getting rid of drive trains, and fitting electric motors directly into cars’ wheels. Such systems would be operated electronically, so they would also provide traction control.

With wheel-mounted motors that mix motive power, braking and active suspension, more of the things conventionally fitted to a car become unnecessary. Because a gearbox, clutch, transmission and differential unit are no longer needed, and springs and other suspension items will probably go, too, vehicles could assume all sorts of shapes and sizes.

Based on the description above luxury items like drivetrains, suspension, great braking, transmissions will not longer be of any relevance whatsoever.

The chronometer watch is a redundant technology but remains a hot luxury.
The traditional internal combustion car with transmissions, suspensions will become a redundant technology but will remain a hot luxury for people who can afford it.

dewey

What's with this hybrid debate anyway?

Why not?

Do you have any other suggestions worthy of debate?
Stocks, Obama, the Mideast crisis, various Jakarta sport matches?

tagman

I have no disagreement with what you are saying.
But despite that I think you, myself and everyone here would rather be driving a BMW 335d or Audi TDI versus a Lexus HS.

No doubt about it! But, just realize that my reference to the HS was only to illuminate that there is indeed a market for lux hybrids. Further, there were some posters questioning whether or not buyers in that segment would give up performance, and the HS indicates they will... although I still think there is good reason to believe that better performing models will come from other manufacturers.

Based on price the Telsa makes a Lotus look like a far more compelling alternative.

Totally agree again, but there are those that are buying the Tesla.
Personally, I would buy the Lotus Elise SC.

As far as the "hybrid debate" goes, I agree with you yet again. As you said, "Why not"? Discussing the potential for hybrid powertrains (or any other powertrains for that matter) in the luxury segment is a bullseye for this forum. Otherwise, we might as well go back to those stock market and home entertainment discussions... j/k.

TM

dewey

Hey Tag your too fast for me.

I didn't realized it until it was too late but I changed my initial post.
But yes I do agree with your response. And yes I need to take a high speed typing course just to keep up with your posts.

tagman

Ha! Like you, I often edit on the fly, and it makes it tricky. I should use the preview feature more often, but that's just not my style I guess.

No worries. Somehow it all works out.

TM

borno

Thanks, still thinking blue, or white.
X6 is OK, but gts with stick would be a lot more fun.
After seeing press release for new bmw5, I might wait, and consider european delivery in a year or so. Like the idea of driving my A6 into the ground.

dewey

Enjoy your turkeys. I had my Canadian Thanksgiving last month and I still can remember all those left over club sandwiches.

I The North American BMW President's view on Audi based on the interview below:

Question : Audi has made great strides in the premium segment. Audi is part of the Volkswagen Group and can dig into the group for engineering and technology and doesn't have to develop it all on its own the way you have to. Therefore Audi gets it cheaper and therefore can spend more money on eye-catching interiors for example. Aren't you at a disadvantage standing alone?

Answer: I think if you look at it from a pure variable, direct cost point of view, you're absolutely right. We are at a disadvantage in comparison with Audi.

However, if you look at it from a consumer's point of view, he knows when he's buying a BMW he's buying a BMW through and through.

When you buy an Audi, you're buying a bit of Volkswagen, a bit of SEAT, you know.

Is that an authentic brand?

And the North American BMW President view on Hyundai's Genesis?

Question: But now you can buy premium cars from South Korea for $25,000 less. There are more manufacturers crowding into your premium space.

Answer: No, no, no. Because somebody in Korea says they're selling a premium car it doesn't say they're in the premium market.

I think that's true of jewellery, fashion, whatever. You just can't say you're a premium manufacturer and get everyone to believe it.

I think if you did a straw poll of a group of Mercedes and BMW drivers out there, they'd say no.

link title

bmlexus

Thanks, still thinking blue, or white.
X6 is OK, but gts with stick would be a lot more fun.
After seeing press release for new bmw5, I might wait, and consider european delivery in a year or so. Like the idea of driving my A6 into the ground.

You're welcome borno, but I still insist checking out the x6.

My posts seems to be invisible to other users, if it means nothing to other users here, I guess I should not post here anymore. :shades:

borno

agreed, this is a tough forum.
there are a lot of long time contributors,
I'm sure your messsages are being heard, especially the last one.

Hope everyone had a delicious turkey!!!