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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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    kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Would you consider a electric Golf Cart the predecessor of a Prius

    Now that you mention it, yes! You're right. Sometimes all it takes is to package existing technology in a way that hasn't been thought of. Of course, that's is partly the Prius and other hybrid models. There may be components of the Prius, and other hybrid models, which make them unique, but the concept of hybrid technology is old.
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    akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I think you're confusing a true Hybrid with Electric Vehicle. Having a gas engine work in conjunction with an electric motor (seamlessly) and be able to run on either one independently is the epitome of a revolutionary technology.
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    akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    An article talking about the new Dual LCD display screen for the 2010 Fusion says it will give fuel economy information and other real time info about the vehicle with 4 selectable levels.

    But the most interesting info in the article is that the new 2010 Fusion hybrid will be able to run on electric power only up to 47 mph and that it will achieve a range of 700 miles on one tank of gas in city driving. If they keep the 17.5 gallon fuel tank from the regular fusion that means 40 mpg city.

    By comparison the Camry hybrid only gets 33/34.
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    aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    If that were true about the Fusion Hybrid, that's pretty impressive.
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    akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Here is one article with pictures of the displays but it doesn't mention the 700 mile range.

    http://jalopnik.com/5070371/ford-smartgauge-lcd-instrument-panel-brings-futurist- ic-look-green-leaves-to-2010-hybrids

    image
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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Pretty slick looking. The only thing that worries me is the fact that people will probably be tinkering with this stuff while they drive. I hope and pray that Ford's lawyers come through and make this stuff changeable only while the car is in Park.

    That said, isn't there something to be said for simplicity? That cluster is lacking it. "Efficiency leaves?" Please.
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    baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    I hope and pray that Ford's lawyers come through and make this stuff changeable only while the car is in Park.

    You can only change the color of the MyColor display in the current Mustang while the car is not moving so I would be shocked if that were not the case in the hybrids too.

    "Efficiency leaves?" Please.

    USAToday's article on it says Honda has something similar in the works too. You don't think that will be some cheesy gimmick too?
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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    USAToday's article on it says Honda has something similar in the works too. You don't think that will be some cheesy gimmick too?

    If Honda has efficiency leaves or something similar, sure I will. I might change my name to *Rain* or *Springbreath* and wear only clothes made from recycled lawn clippings too, otherwise. :shades:

    Why wouldn't I? To tell you the truth, I like the simplistic layout of gauges like they used to make in the Honda Hybrids, with basic charge/assist indicators, and a battery level. Give me info from my gauge cluster, and leave it at that, thankyousir.

    image

    I also like the implementation that Ford used in the old system. Although small, it wasn't distracting. None of this flashy stuff! :P

    image
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    akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I think the hybrid camry has a similar "cheesy" display but I don't remember the details.

    The good news is there are 4 display levels and the simple one is really simple, so you don't get the details unless you want them. That should satisfy the technologically challenged and the geeks at the same time.
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    aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Don't know if we have seen a shot as good as this just yet.

    Those look like Altima head lamps to me....and a big "WTF" for the rear! This thing just looks weird.
    http://www.automobilemag.com/green/news/0810_2010_mercury_milan_hybrid_spied/ind- - ex.html
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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Hello Buick!

    image
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    aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    I'm really curious to see the Fusion now. Until now, I thought the Milan was the better looking of the two.
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    akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Here's the fusion hybrid gauge cluster:

    image
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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    The whole thing seems to droop now. It isn't terrible, but isn't what I'd call an improvement, either.

    image

    image
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    akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    To me it looks much better, especially the slight bulge in the hood and grille. Of course this is probably the last new Milan we'll see. Mercury is moving towards unique vehicles and away from Ford rebadges. Note there was no Mercury version of the Flex or Edge (or Focus or Fiesta).

    I expect the Fusion to look even better based on spy photos and illustrations. Shouldn't be too long now.
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    mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    It's an Altima with a different grille. Umm, ugly.

    I also love how the droopy front end doesn't even begin to flow into the boxed-off rear end.

    I used to prefer the looks of the Milan over the Fusion... Not anymore.
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    dm1212dm1212 Member Posts: 59
    The fusion drives like crap. My mother has a 2006 SEL V6, although the car is peppy, the steering is lose, and is pittiful for FWD in snow. I think she paid 28 grand for, biggest waste of money ever. I strongly don't reccomend a Ford product...and considering the Mazda 6 is practically a Fusion, I would stay away from it. Looks can be decieving, I would go with the Altima.
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    dm1212dm1212 Member Posts: 59
    That is typical Ford engineering. CHEAP. The new Milan is worse then the old one, I could see maybe an 85 year old woman driving one. That grill is hidious!
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    akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Fusion steering and handling is one of it's strong points and is better than average for this type of vehicle. That was one of the few benefits of the Jackie Stewart Formula 1 team.
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    aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Ummm, you need to be corrected. The Mazda6 is not by any means a Fusion. The Fusion was loosely based on the 1st gen Mazda6 and though no longer in production the 1st gen Mazda6 is still considered the best handling, braking and steering vehicle in this class. The 2nd gen is a whole other story. The difference is night and day between the two of them.
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    akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Just released at media.ford.com:

    image

    (Fusion Sport Model shown - not the best camera angle in the world but I guess they want to save the good stuff for the L.A. Auto Show official debut)

    For 2009, the 2010 model year Fusion and Milan will offer Ford’s all-new Duratec 2.5-liter I-4, producing 175 horsepower; an enhanced 3.0-liter V-6 with 19 more horsepower than its predecessor; and a 3.5-liter V-6 that pumps out 263 horsepower on the Fusion Sport model.

    Fusion models equipped with the 2.5-liter I-4 engine are expected to deliver at least 3 mpg better on the highway than the Honda Accord and 2 mpg better than the Toyota Camry.

    That's 240 hp for the 3.0L V6 with better fuel economy than the previous 221 hp version. And should put the fuel economy at 33 mpg for the automatic 2.5L vs. 30 for the Accord and 31 for the Camry.

    The only thing I see missing is HIDs - does the Camcordnatima offer HIDs?
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    aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Anyone else see a Saab in the front??

    Not bad...not bad at all.
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    akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Maybe just a tad - but i think it's more the angle of the shot. The camouflaged spy shots didn't look that way.
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    dm1212dm1212 Member Posts: 59
    The 2008 Mazda 6 and the 2008 Fusion were almost the same car, and the drive on the Fusion is simply american. The next Fusion and Mazda 6 are using the same chasis again. 3 Years 36,000 mile warranty, simply not a good idea to buy either one of them. Today was the first time I saw the Milan, and it looks like the bumper weighs 4,000 pounds and its pulling down the grill. Try Audi or BMW engineering.
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    aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    I can see that offering two different V6 engines is going to make it tough on dealers to place orders.
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    dm1212dm1212 Member Posts: 59
    The Fusion looks decent, but the Milan looks horrible. Fusion could use real chrome instead of cheap plastic three barred grill, and it might get my approval. Does anyone have a rear view of the Fusion?
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    aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    The drive of the 1st gen Mazda6 was anything but American, and they were not almost the same car. Similar platform's do not equal same car. That is a common misconception.

    The Fusion is highly recommended by leading consumer publications as was the 1st gen Mazda6. According to many, including the site you are posting on (Edmunds.com) the 09 Mazda6 is a class leader, ahead of Altima, Camry and Accord. Not a good idea to buy either? Hardly. The reasons you post fail to prove that. Sorry. If you just don't like them, that's fine. Then that's what you should say. Don't make non factual based comments or people like myself will jump on you for it. ;)
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    aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    I've been looking for a rear view, and I can't seem to find one. My guess is the front end is the same plastic-chrome. I've never been a fan of it.

    Man, am I the only one that sees a Saab!?!?!
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    akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    The Fusion and Milan have the same 3/36 bumper to bumper and 5/60 powertrain warranty as the Accord and is just as reliable based on the last 3 years of data. There is nothing wrong with the grille material, either. If you don't like the design just say so and don't buy one.
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    akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Who uses real metal chrome grilles these days?
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    dm1212dm1212 Member Posts: 59
    Thats funny, because Ford owns 33% of Mazda and the Mazda 6 is made in America. Not only do the Fusion and the 6 share the SAME CHASSIS, are BUILT IN THE SAME PLANT, SHARE THE SAME ENGINE AND SUSPENSION. So before you start talking smack, look up your information. I have driven an 05 Mazda 6, and a 2006 Fusion and they drive the same, cheap, and loose. So why don't you stop making non-factual based comments. Oh, and BTW, Ofcourse the 09 Mazda 6 is class-leading it just got a 100% new body style, inside and out. The Camry and Accord have been on the market since 2007. I have nothing against the new Mazda 6, have not driven one yet. ;)
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    akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Fusion is built in Hermosillo, Mexico (always has been). Mazda6 is built in FlatRock.

    09 Fusion has a 3.0L and 3.5L V6. 09 Mazda6 has a 3.7L V6.

    So before YOU start talking smack YOU might want to look up your information. Then again I don't think you're much interested in facts.
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    dm1212dm1212 Member Posts: 59
    Sedan Wise.
    Chevy Malibu (Upscale Model)
    Audi A4 3.2
    Audi A6 4.2
    BMW 330i and BMW 330xi
    BMW 535i, 535xi, 550i
    BMW 750i, 750li
    Mercedes Benz E350
    Lexus GS350
    Lincoln MKZ
    Lincoln MXS

    Too Many to list, the plastic looks cheap.
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    dm1212dm1212 Member Posts: 59
    I'm talking about the 2008 models..
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    dm1212dm1212 Member Posts: 59
    Why would you buy any of them? Why wouldn't you buy a Passat with 4 years/50,000 mile warranty, and German engineering. I would never own a non-german made car.
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    aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    They are not built in the same plant. The Fusion is built in Mexico! The Mazda6 is built at Auto Alliance International in Flat Rock, MI which was originally built by Mazda and called Mazda Motor USA Manufacturing. Ford then bought into it so it could build some of their cars. They do not share the same suspension either. The 4 cyl is a Mazda engine and the V6 WAS, is no longer, a Ford engine. Remember who developed the platform (GG/GY), Mazda!

    So, I say again, The Fusion was loosely based on the 1st gen Mazda6.

    I have a funny feeling you are about to get ripped by many here in regards to calling the Mazda6 "cheap and loose". greyghost, where are ya? All evidence points to the contrary.

    Again, if you didn't like it, just say so!
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    aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Why wouldn't you buy a Passat with 4 years/50,000 mile warranty, and German engineering. I would never own a non-german made car.

    You rip Ford and Mazda and then put VW on a high horse? Can I have what you are smoking? :surprise:

    To VW's credit, they do build a car that's easy on the eyes, and the newer models have a decent interior. Same cannot be said of ones just a few years ago.
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    dm1212dm1212 Member Posts: 59
    All VW's currently made are good looking, even their new minivan. The passat is a great looking, sporty, and semi-reliable sedan. The interior on a loaded Passat is nicer then the base 528i. I drive a 2005 Audi A6, and no auto-maker comes close to the quality of the interior of an Audi.
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    stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    I sense a troll.

    dm1212, you might want to go back and check your facts again. You're welcome to your opinion regarding how these cars drive, but there are people on this list who are fairly well-placed in the auto industry and who thus know what the hell they're talking about when they discuss the similarities and differences, common platforms, components and so on.

    Hosts?
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    aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Yes, the Routan is a very pretty Dodge Caravan.

    I drive a 2005 Audi A6, and no auto-maker comes close to the quality of the interior of an Audi.

    I do really like Audi's design, particularly the new A4, however, I will respectfully disagree about the interior quality statement. I have spent a lot of time in my co-workers 2006 A6 4.2, and I was very unimpressed. Build quality is decent, but, design, materials and lay out were unimpressive for a $50,000 car.
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    jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    The fusion looks better and the Milan worse to me. I'd like to see a non-chrome grill option, though.

    33 mpg highway would be 5 mpg above the rating for the 2.3 and 3 mpg better than the new Mazda6 with the same 2.5 engine. That is a fantastic improvement.

    Though, with the plunging gas prices, I wonder how long it will be before they decide... "oops we were actual right before when all we cared about was trucks and SUVs" ;) .
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    kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Hosts?

    Don't like the reviews and you want the host to step in? :confuse
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    dm1212dm1212 Member Posts: 59
    Thats odd.
    I was thinking about buyin an 09 A4 V6, can't drive a 4 with a turbo. 42,000 fully loaded. nav. prem. etc. I test drove it around two weeks back, stiff steering, sporty, etc. but while on the test drive the car was really lacking in leg-room. Going to maybe trade my car in when the 09 A6 comes out. 51k on my car, no problems besides the sun-roof and rear cup-holders. Handling is superb, especially in snow, never going to own anything besides an Audi ever again. Thats why on affordable mid-size sedans I would go with the Passat. And you ask why I hate ford so much, before having my A6 I had a 2003 Expedition Edie Bauer, and the car was a piece of junk, stalling on the high way, not my thing.
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    dm1212dm1212 Member Posts: 59
    I agree with you. The milan is an ugly car. The fusion doesn't look half bad though, I would want to see a 300hp V8 instead of the wimpy 263 hp 3.5... I wouldn't buy a car because it gets 3 more miles to the gallon. Gas prices are falling and I could careless if I safe 100 bucks a year in gas. I would like to see more hybrid SUV's coming.
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    aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    33 mpg highway would be 5 mpg above the rating for the 2.3 and 3 mpg better than the new Mazda6 with the same 2.5 engine

    I'm wondering if they really are the exact same engine. I did read that Ford uses a VVT system called "intake variable cam timing". I wonder if this is any different from Mazda's Variable Valve Timing. Maybe just in name? I have no idea. However, some of the press release stated exactly what Mazda did in their press release, by talking about newer intake and exhaust manifolds.

    If they are indeed identical, then the Fusion must have a really really low revving 6th gear. 2,000-2,200 rpm's at 70mph?
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    akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Further proof that mazda and ford only share engineering and basic components and do not clone each other's vehicles or engines.
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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Where am I going, and what am I doing in this handbasket?
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    waygrabowwaygrabow Member Posts: 214
    If you want to be highly opinionated and badmouth other cars, at least try to be factually accurate. People will accept your comments better. I am currently driving an Audi; it has been great for the last five years we've had it, but I know that other great cars are out there too. I drove a MazdaSpeed6 for two years and enjoyed it just as much (or more? They are two different experiences.) as our Audi.
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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    The poster has already expressed distaste for anything less than a 300hp V8, something no vehicle in this forum offers. No point in even having a discussion here.
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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Well, I thought the Milan was pretty sorry looking (much too big a grille mostly) until you posted the photo of the new Fusion. OMG. All you see is THREE HUGE CHROME BARS that overwhelm the rest of the car--which is probably just fine styling-wise, except it's hard to tell from that photo and it's also hard to tell because of those three huge chrome bars that say proudly, "Look at me, I'm driving a Ford!!!"

    I preferred the old Milan's styling to the old Fusion, and I still prefer the new Milan over the new Fusion except now I don't really like either one of them too much. Which is too bad because I really like the idea of a mid-sized sedan that gets 40 mpg highway.
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