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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    If they are indeed identical, then the Fusion must have a really really low revving 6th gear. 2,000-2,200 rpm's at 70mph?

    I don't know if they are identical or not either, but in the case of the old 2.3, the mpg rating was essentially the same in the Mazda6 and Ford Fusion.

    The Ford press release did ascribe "up to a 10 percent fuel economy improvement" to the new 6 speed trans.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Why would you buy any of them? Why wouldn't you buy a Passat with 4 years/50,000 mile warranty, and German engineering. I would never own a non-german made car.

    Because not everyone shares the same opinion as you. While you may like the Passat, others differ.

    The Passat is pretty good, but I'd imagine the price range is WAY out there for many of the midsize demographic. For the price of a nicely equipped Passat, you could step into something like an Infiniti G35, or a Hyundai Genesis.

    Your selling points are the warranty and "German engineering". Having a longer warranty doesn't make the car any better, especially considering VW has always been on the tail-end of the quality/reliability ratings. And, "German engineering" is over-rated ;)
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Why would you buy any of them? Why wouldn't you buy a Passat with 4 years/50,000 mile warranty, and German engineering. I would never own a non-german made car.

    Well, because the new Passat looks like a German Toyota Corolla (where the old one was quite handsome). Because a longer warranty on a less reliable car is only valuable if you are getting rid of the less reliable car before the warranty runs out.

    And yes, I've owned Mazdas, VWs, and Audis.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    I think VW no longer has 4 yr/50 K mi warranty, anyway. I believe they went to 3/36 and, instead, now include free maintenance during the new warranty period.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    greyghost, where are ya?

    *Rushes in to sit down* Sorry I'm late! :)

    Let's see, where to start...

    The Mazda6 "loose and cheap"? Right... The Mazda6 is THE best handling midsize sedan in this price range, period. I've driven the Accord, Altima, and the Passat, and they don't even come close to what the 1st-gen 6 was capable of. That's why I bought one.

    Yes, the Fulan and the 6 share platforms, that's it. The Fusion does handle well, but it's still entirely different from a 6.

    It seems that dm1212 has had a bad taste left by Ford, but pretty much everybody else on this board, as well as just about every other auto enthusiast and critic, thinks differently. And dm, a word of advice: I wouldn't even THINK about bashing anyone else about their information, since aviboy97 actually works in the automotive business, and there are plenty of others that have been here longer than you, will still be here after you're gone, and have ACTUALLY done their homework, including actual test-drives. Believe me, they know what they're talking about.

    I'm talking about the 2008 models..

    Doesn't change a thing.

    Why would you buy any of them? Why wouldn't you buy a Passat with 4 years/50,000 mile warranty, and German engineering. I would never own a non-german made car.

    "German engineering"? You're obviously still young into your German relationship. As for the Passat, they do look great, and use good-quality materials for the interior, but they're too expensive for this class. Plus, have you ever paid for replacement parts or service for a VW? Umm, not cheap, at all.

    All VW's currently made are good looking, even their new minivan. The passat is a great looking, sporty, and semi-reliable sedan. The interior on a loaded Passat is nicer then the base 528i. I drive a 2005 Audi A6, and no auto-maker comes close to the quality of the interior of an Audi.

    Umm, it had better, since the A6 is $25K OR MORE than any other car listed on the right. And yes, the VW Caravan/Town & Country is pretty nice, FOR A CHRYSLER!!

    51k on my car, no problems besides the sun-roof and rear cup-holders. Handling is superb, especially in snow,

    Your point? My '04 Mazda6 has 72K miles with just about every option, and I've had ONE issue, a faulty gas cap, replaced under warranty. And handling IMO is just as good, since they're both FWD, while saving $$$$ with both the purchase and service/parts.

    And just as you've been bitten by Ford, I've been bitten by VW. Take the 1999 and 2000 Golfs that I used to drive for my part-time job, both diesels. Both worked well for the first 50-60K miles, then things went south. The '99 had a ton of electrical issues, with lights blowing out, gauges and lights working/not working, problems with the anti-theft, a radio that ate cassettes, etc. To boot, the diesel engine, supposedly "indestructible", went through 3 turbos, two sets of seals, and three starters. It was finally junked after the second transmission went, at ONLY 135K MILES, less than half the mileage that a quality-built diesel should last. The '00? Not much different. Electrical system failures constantly, two transmissions, two turbos, etc. When it was totaled with 115K miles on it, my boss got much more than it was worth, since it had a fuel system issue that would've cost $5K to repair.

    VW and "reliable" don't belong in the same sentence. And I'm FAR from the only person that thinks this, since pretty much EVERY quality/reliability survey has rated VW at or near the bottom over the past 15 years, with good reason. And for the record, Audi wasn't doing very well for a long time either, until the past couple of years...

    Again, dm, if you hate Ford, fine. But don't throw "facts" around when just about everything else I've read, seen, and experience first-hand says otherwise.
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    Well said.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Ford says the hybrid Fusion will get at least 38 mpg in the city, compared with 33 mpg for the Camry. The Fusion will be able to cruise at 47 mph on electric-only power.

    Wow. Now that's impressive. This is not your grandfather's Ford.

    http://www.detroitnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081030/OPINION03/8103003- 58/1148/AUTO01
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Can't see it at work but everyone says it looks great.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jz1W3Sda4v0
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    It would be impressive as long as it doesn't drive like a Prius.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    I have to say, I'm very impressed with Ford lately. Not only are they climbing up the reliability charts, but their recent products from the last 2 years have been built better too. The Ford Flex and Taurus have a remarkable interior. Really top notch. I don't necessarily like the design, of any Ford for that matter, but, it seems as if they are learning how to build a better car.

    The more and more I look at the new Fusion, the more and more I'm starting NOT to like it. From the press release, it seems as if they are actually proactive in advancing their technology, something they did not do for years. From what I see, I'm going out on a limb here, I will say that it's only a matter of time before Ford turns it's self around.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Exactly. When was the last time Ford was a leader in fuel economy? The only thing holding them back right now is limited resources made worse by the poor economy - and terrible past management decisions.

    The spy shots of the new Fusion look a lot better than that press photo, so hold that judgement for 3 weeks until we get better photos. I think it's a big improvement over the current design.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    I'm really curious about the interior too. I was not a big fan of the Fusion interior to begin with.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    The gauge cluster is new and has a 3 ring design to it. The center stack is no longer flat and it has the new Ford radio and hvac controls similar to the Flex with a straight shifter instead of the "T" handle. Definitely better but not totally new. Then again this is a 3 year MCE, not an entirely new vehicle. The change in the MKZ dash, OTOH, is basically a clean sheet redesign matching the MKS design which is a HUGE improvement.

    The current Fusion interior isn't bad with the piano black trim. The other trims are rather pedestrian, but functional. The new center stack and gauges should help a lot.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    So it appears, all you naysayers pay attention now, that the leaves can be changed to a more traditional graph if you don't like them. I personally thought the leaves were cheesy and now I'm officially on-board with this new gauge cluster. I'd like to see it in non-hybrids too though. Minus the hybrid battery stuff. IIRC Ford did say they were going to put efficiency meters in their ICE vehicles soon too. Anyone know if this is what they were talking about? Or at least some version of it?
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    If you've driven the Prius, and the Fusion (or Milan), you know they drive nothing like the Prius. They also probably won't top the Prius' FE (especially that of the new-for-2010 Prius), but they have big advantages ride/handling wise.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Toyota makes 2 hybrid sedans - Prius and Camry. The Fusion hybrid competes with the Camry, not the Prius.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I am well aware of that, thanks (although the Prius is a hatchback, not a sedan). I was replying to someone else's post that compared the Fusion to the Prius.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Here she is boys....

    http://www.leftlanenews.com/mercury-milan-hybrid.html

    Why is Ford so dumb to ride around with no camo and still want to wait till mid November to show us what it looks like....
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    If you've driven the Prius, and the Fusion (or Milan), you know they drive nothing like the Prius.

    That's true. But "hybridizing" a vehicle fundamentally alters many of its driving characteristics:

    Regenerative braking systems have a very different feel from conventional systems.
    Hybrids carry more weight, and in different places. This affects handling, usually negatively.Accessories such as power steering are more likely to be electrically driven in a hybrid, and the feel can be very different from hydraulic power steering. Of course, the severity of the difference varies, and many non-hybrids are now using electric power steering too, but it may still be a factor in the driving experience.

    Based on these characteristics, I would be reluctant to assume that the Fusion Hybrid will automatically share the positive characteristics I associate with the conventionally-powered Fusion.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I was replying to someone else's post that compared the Fusion to the Prius.

    So was I. I just happened to click reply on your post instead of going back.
  • dm1212dm1212 Member Posts: 59
    Your point? My '04 Mazda6 has 72K miles with just about every option, and I've had ONE issue, a faulty gas cap, replaced under warranty. And handling IMO is just as good, since they're both FWD, while saving $$$$ with both the purchase and service/parts.

    The A6 is AWD, if thats what your talking about. Its almost IMPOSSIBLE to find an A6 in FWD, because with the FWD option you can't have the premimum package. The FWD Fusion is a rarity to find now considering Ford actually made an AWD option.

    ONLY 135K MILES, less than half the mileage that a quality-built diesel should last.

    Hmm, your telling me a Ford Excursion would last 135k miles? Not a chance in the world.

    VW and "reliable" don't belong in the same sentence. And I'm FAR from the only person that thinks this, since pretty much EVERY quality/reliability survey has rated VW at or near the bottom over the past 15 years, with good reason. And for the record, Audi wasn't doing very well for a long time either, until the past couple of years...

    Show me where Ford was about two-three years ago, 20 bucks says they are below VW.

    Umm, it had better, since the A6 is $25K OR MORE than any other car listed on the right. And yes, the VW Caravan/Town & Country is pretty nice, FOR A CHRYSLER!!

    You just ruinned your argument about the Fusion and Mazda 6. Like the Fusion and Mazda 6, The Routan and Town and Country share the same chassis.

    "German engineering"? You're obviously still young into your German relationship. As for the Passat, they do look great, and use good-quality materials for the interior, but they're too expensive for this class. Plus, have you ever paid for replacement parts or service for a VW? Umm, not cheap, at all.

    Yes, I have. I bought my daughter a 2007 Jetta Wulfsberg Edition, and she wrecked it. A new fender was only $300.00.

    My point is Ford is junk, they are in such desperate ways they had to make a Focus "Coupe" to try and boost their sales. IMO, it looks like a Porta-Potty on Wheels.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I don't think this is even worth a reply. Please don't feed the you-know-what.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    You just ruinned your argument about the Fusion and Mazda 6. Like the Fusion and Mazda 6, The Routan and Town and Country share the same chassis.

    The Caravan and Routan share a whole hell of a lot more then the Fusion and Mazda6. With the arrival of the 2010 Fusion and 2009 Mazda6, they are more like 3rd cousins twice removed....

    Here is where the Routan / Caravan are similar and the Fusion and Mazda6 are not.

    Routan / Caravan are built on the same production line at Windsor Assembly in Windsor, Ontario. Engines available are two V6 engines from Chrysler's powertrain stable: the 3.8 L V6 producing 197 hp and 230 lb·ft, and the 4.0 L V6 producing 251 hp and 259 lb·ft. Both engines are teamed to Chrysler's 62TE six-speed automatic transaxle with manual shift capability. The body design is similar overall to the Chrysler vans, though Volkswagen designers gave the Routan a unique front- and rear-end appearance to differentiate the van from its Chrysler siblings and bring it in to the Volkswagen family. The interior is all VW as well.

    Mazda6 is built at AAI in Flat Rock, MI and the Fusion is built in Mexico. They have never shared any body panels, transmissions, suspension, or ECU's. The only sharing that went on was the basic platform (which really does not mean much) and engine design. The Ford 2.3 and new 2.5 are Mazda designs, and the old 3.0L was a Ford, and the new 3.7L uses the Ford block design only. All internals, VV-T, heads, cams, ECU are all Mazda designed and built in Japan.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Let's try to stick to the vehicles that belong in this topic. And let's review akirby's recent excellent advice, also.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    :)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Call me crazy, but I think it's pretty likely that the Fusion hybrid, with its hybrid tweaks, but with its fully-independent suspension and Mazda6-based chassis, will have superior ride and handling to that of the Prius with its Echo-inspired suspension.
  • vanman1vanman1 Member Posts: 1,397
    I took a Fusion for a drive when I was looking for a sedan last month, I liked it. Problem for me is they had no more 2008 V6 models left other than a demo that was sold. The price was certainly right but in the end I ended up with a V6 Malibu LT as I liked it a bit more even thought it cost more. The Caddy engine was worth it and there were still cars available.

    I'd recommend a Fusion though, for the money it's a great sedan.
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    Does anyone out there know if Ford is using a version of Toyota's hybrid powertrain management software etc? I believe the Altima Hybrid does.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Ford developed its own hybrid system. However, Ford licensed Toyota hybrid patents after its engineers realized that the system Ford had developed had features similar to ones patented by Toyota.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    It's important to note that Ford did not pay Toyota for any patent rights for the hybrid technology - instead the 2 companies swapped patents. Ford developed their own technology but found it was so similar to what Toyota had already patented they wanted to avoid a potential future lawsuit, and Toyota needed something that Ford had already figured out. Ford is not using Toyota's hybrid system like Nissan.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    It's important to note that Ford did not pay Toyota for any patent rights for the hybrid technology - instead the 2 companies swapped patents.

    Sounds like Ford had to pay Toyota off, because they copied their work.
  • aqua33v6aqua33v6 Member Posts: 38
    I don't know of any specific history between Ford and Toyota sharing hybrid technology, but I wouldn't be surprised if they had. For example, companies can make supplemental improvements to existing patents, and then turn around and patent those improvements. Possibly the case? Again, I haven't kept up on that sort-O-stuff.

    Whether that be the case, or not, we could speculate such a thing.

    (just as easily as we could speculate: "Sounds like this company paid-off that company," etc)
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Both companies were quite clear about this. Ford developed their own hybrid technology but found their design was close enough to what Toyota had patented that there was a possibility that Toyota could sue them, so they worked out a swap of patents to avoid that. Happens all the time. In fact Ford only licensed 20 of Toyota's 350 hybrid patents. In exchange they licensed some diesel and direct injection patents to Toyota.

    Can we please stop spreading lies?
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    It's important to note that Ford did not pay Toyota for any patent rights for the hybrid technology - instead the 2 companies swapped patents.

    Bartering is a form of payment. Ford paid for licensing Toyota's hybrid patents by exchanging patents of their own. I really don't see why it matters whether Ford paid cash for the licenses, or paid with a swap of patents.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    If that's the case who paid who? Unless one knows the exact value of both patents it's possible Toyota was paying off Ford. Not likely but what does it really matter?
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    If that's the case who paid who? Unless one knows the exact value of both patents it's possible Toyota was paying off Ford. Not likely but what does it really matter?

    In the process of comparing mainstream midsize sedans and their characteristics, it doesn't matter at all (to me). I believe we have a News and Views section, or something of that sort, where that would be a great topic to kick around. ;)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    With three votes Nay (doesn't matter), one vote Yea (important), the matter of who paid whom for how much of what using what form of payment is rejected.

    What is next on the mid-sized sedans docket?
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    What is next on the mid-sized sedans docket?

    Some things to chew on...

    Honda's V6 Sedan gets re-rated at 271 hp, 254 lb-ft. up from 268 hp/248 lb-ft.
    Toyota has a new 4-cylinder engine to replace the current 2.4L unit in the Camry when the 2010 model debuts. The new 2.5L unit that produces 179 HP at 6,000 RPM, along with 172 lb.-ft. of torque at 4,000 RPM in the RAV4.

    The Altima gets new plastic wheelcovers for low-end 2009 models.

    Volkswagen discontinues the 3.6L Passat, leaving the V6 to go in the new Passat CC. The Passat will use the 2.0L Turbo model, and according to VW.com, starts at $28,300.

    I'm sure many people knew of a lot of these changes, but I thought I'd list them as conversation points. :)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    OMG, I have to run down to my Nissan dealer and see those new wheel covers! :)

    Would have been nice if they had added something useful, like standard ESC, to the Altima while they were at it.

    It looks like the center of attention for CY 2009 for mid-sizers is Ford/Mazda--the refresh to the 2009 Optima notwithstanding. Since the Prius is "officially" mid-sized (at least by the EPA), that is another interesting development for CY 2009--the next-gen 2010 Prius due out in early 2009.
  • madpistolmadpistol Member Posts: 126
    The new wheelcovers on the Altima are FUGLY!!! They remind me of wheel covers found on the '00-'01 Camry, but they're even UGLIER!!!! At least the wheel covers on the '07-'08 Altima's had a little bit of taste. I'd wager that this is one of Nissan's selling tactics; make people hate the cheap plastic wheelcovers so they'll buy the more expensive packages w/ 16" alloys.

    In other news, the Camry gets no new changes for '09, and thus, it still sucks. :P
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    I know, I know, we're beating it to death. But this 2010 Fusion is pretty big news IMO and you can read more than you want about the new powertrains here. Lots of good info if you care to know. ;)
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,723
    toyota had a judgement against them related to their hybrid synergy system for infringing on another non automotive company's patent. i think it was about $25 per vehicle. good new ideas are hard to come by.
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Member Posts: 1,467
    Yep no real changes for the 09 Altima or Camry...but look for facelifted 2010 Camry and Altima models to debut after the Fusion. The facelifted Camry should appear at Detroit and go on sale soon after...and like always Nissan will probably show off the facelifted Altima at Chicago and it should go on sale by March of next year. So while they offer nothing really new for 09, that particular model year will be short and we'll soon see the 2010 models.
  • gooddeal2gooddeal2 Member Posts: 750
    So while they offer nothing really new for 09, that particular model year will be short and we'll soon see the 2010 models.

    ...not for '09 Camry, it's been out since Feb. of this year. :surprise:
  • bwiabwia Member Posts: 2,913
    Perhaps this is the wrong thread to ask this question but
    has any one used the American Express buying service that guarantees to save buyers an average of $750 on a new car purchase? I am not sure if that savings is off MSRP or the average transaction price.

    The promotion came in the mail and it does not show how much the service cost but the average savings seems low. Perhaps most buyers could do better on their own, but then again, there are buyers who hate to haggle.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    We're all saying the same thing. Ford could not use it's inventions without fear of litigation from Toyota, unless they engaged in a deal with Toyota, to eliminate the threat of litigation.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    No, some people were implying that Ford simply purchased it's hybrid technology from Toyota which is an urban myth.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    No, some people were implying that Ford simply purchased it's hybrid technology from Toyota which is an urban myth.

    Isn't copying it, then paying for it, amount to the same thing? ;)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Good news, the 2009 Optima gets ABS, ESC, and traction control standard across the board, joining the Accord, Mazda6, Passat, and Sonata (and Legacy?) as "true" mid-sizers with ESC on every trim. That takes care of the one glaring deficiency of the Optima, and the new-for-2009 175 hp I4 (shared with the Sonata) doesn't hurt either. Still has a pretty wimpy V6 for the class though (albeit with a little more power for 2009).

    http://www.kia.com/optima/optima-features.php
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    They didn't copy it - just get over it already.
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