Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations

stever · August 2014

Met a woman in Tucson a decade ago who taught smoking cessation for a living. One thing stuck with me - a lot of the habit, at least for some, is the hand movement up to the mouth and back.

You know, kind of like the habit some people fall into where they have to go chat up their car salesperson and inhale that new car smell every week or two.

mako1a · August 2014

Check this out. I hadn't had a haircut in three months so in I go today. The shop, a mom and daughter place. Mom is 65, daughter is 37. Both very nice and honest to a fault. Mom had a 2010 Dodge Challenger 5.7 Hemi A/T she bought new. Started having trans trouble in June, took it in for diagnosis. They told her it was a computer box behind the dash and would take 2 days and $800 to fix. She had bought many cars from them over the years so went to the new car side and took a look at a 2014 Dodge Ram 1500 4WD. She was a little upset with the deal (trading a non perfect running car), but accepted it and bought the red truck. It had adjustable pedals which she had set for herself after the test drive. They took the truck in for detail and put it out front for delivery. All ready to go home she starts it up. The truck takes off full speed squealing tires across the lot, over a concrete tire stop, through the bushes, down the hill between two light poles barely missing a line of new cars, over two more concrete tire stops coming to a sideways stop in muddy grass only feet from the 6 lane highway in front of Shelor Dodge. They didn't know what happened. She blamed the detailer for resetting the pedals. I didn't hear Shelors side of it, but I believe her telling of it with the exception that since she said the brakes didn't work, I believe she got her foot under the brake and firmly on the gas. (just my opinion). They said we'll have the truck fixed up for you in a couple of days, here, take this rental car. She wanted nothing to do with that truck and two days later (after a hospital visit-she was banged up pretty good) she picked out a white one slightly better trim which they gave her for the same deal. I asked if the new one had adjusable pedals to which she replied yes, but she has never touched the button.

driver100 · August 2014

@roadburner said:
I remember you saying that a while back- hence the "certified nutjob" comment.

Some people are very safety conscious. I kind of just take my chances, I prefer as safe a car as possible, but safety isn't my number 1 priority. I also doubt I would trade in a car, because it got a low rating...in fact the 2008 Cabriolet didn't get a great safety rating....and I didn't even think about it. But, I do understand, up to a point, people don't want to drive in a poorly rated car if there are safer choices available.

RB, don't you think most people put safety in their top 5 things to consider?

driver100 · August 2014

@mako1a said: The shop, a mom and daughter place. Mom is 65, daughter is 37

Whewww...I thought this story was going in another direction!

Like I said, safety isn't my #1 priority item, but, I think I would try something other than a Chrysler product at that point.

What happens with the adjustable pedals to cause that to happen?

I wonder how often that happens?

How did your haircut turn out?

driver100 · August 2014

Motorcycle hits car and motorcycle guy land on two feet (30 seconds - must be true, on FOX-NEWS)

foxnews-Biker crashes into car, lands standing on its roof

imidazol97 · August 2014

@henryn said:My Ford should be worth at least as much to a Ford dealer as it is to CarMax

@driver100 said:

Not always the case. The BMW dealer would only give us $20K on a trade-in for our 2008 335. Some silly story about that is all they would pay if buying a similar one at the bmw auction.(sounded suspicious to me)

A car should be worth more to a dealer of that brand. I can hear the used car salesman now touting how it's their brand which is worth more, of course, and it was one owner traded back in to them for another of the same quality brand product the first owner chose the first time around. Seldom would a used car shopper at a brand dealer think the store bought cars from an auction.

Contrast the same vehicle sitting at a different brand lot. The used car shopper wonders if it was a trade for a model in their new line OR was it bought from an auction. If it were traded for a model in the 2nd brand store, what didn't the owner like about the used car that made them chose the better model in the 2nd brand to trade for?

roadburner · August 2014

@driver100 said:
RB, don't you think most people put safety in their top 5 things to consider?

Maybe, but in the case of your acquaintance's wacko spouse, the issue was a car that passed or exceeded every government safety standard. What it "failed" was ONE test promulgated by the IIHS(in order to receive another fawning mention from the mainstream press). Anybody that would quit riding in a car for that reason alone is a hand-wringing bedwetter who is as loopy as the day is long.
Feel free to give her a copy of this post.

graphicguy · August 2014

@henryn said:
Trade-ins are funny business. You just never know where they’re going to fall. The best bet is to get as much information as you possibly can, have qbrozen look up the recent auction numbers for you, and (if you can spare the time) go to CarMax and get a solid offer from them.

Recently I was thinking of trading in my 2013 F150, and getting a new 2014. Go with the Eco Boost engine, get a few more options (back up camera, for one thing). I found one I liked, got the price down to a fairly reasonable point, and asked them to evaluate my trade. They came back at $21k. I laughed , and tried to walk. The sales manager came over and upped the offer to $24k. I still walked, went straight to CarMax, who made a solid offer to buy at $25,500.

The $24k wasn’t terrible, but it wasn’t very good either. My Ford should be worth at least as much to a Ford dealer as it is to CarMax. But the starting offer was terrible, and I still feel like they were trying to ___ me. Which makes me much more likely to go to a different dealer the next time.

Henry....I concur.

I always get a Carmax offer before attempting a trade. I look in the classifieds to see what others asking. If I can, I try to get black book and Manheim numbers, too. That way I have a really good idea what a dealer can buy it, and sell it for.

cdnpinhead · August 2014

@roadburner said: . . . a hand-wringing bedwetter who is as loopy as the day is long.

>

Very well put. There are those whose posts I jump right over and then there are yours.

Besides which, I know a fair number of people who fit the description.

oldfarmer50 · August 2014

@explorerx4 said:
my old F150 pickup

Now that's what I'm talking about. What year, late 80s early 90s?

oldfarmer50 · August 2014

@driver100 said:

@mako1a said:
Check this out. I hadn't had a haircut in three months so in I go today.

Hippy!

Some older people lose sensation in their feet and really can't tell what pedal they're pressing. I suspect that my wife does that. Since her stroke she has reduced feeling in her right foot and I think she drives with her foot touching the brake sometimes resulting in warped rotors for the second time in 26k miles.

driver100 · August 2014

@imidazol97 said:A car should be worth more to a dealer of that brand. I can hear the used car salesman now touting how it's their brand which is worth more,

That's what I would have thought too, but, in my case it worked the opposite. Another factor is that if I wanted a used bmw the first place I would look is a bmw dealer. But, I think the thinking was 1) if the Audi dealer puts the car on the lot he doesn't have to give it a bmw extended warranty, and 2) lots of people want a German luxury car and it doesn't matter what dealership they see it at. We have switched brands several times, and the dealer is happy to get our trade-ins, and all of them would have made good pre-owned cars.

driver100 · August 2014

@roadburner said: Anybody that would quit riding in a car for that reason alone is a hand-wringing bedwetter who is as loopy as the day is long

You are probably right now that I think about it. She drives an MB M Class, probably because it is big and safe. Also, has all of these health and diet concerns. Guess there is a whole market out there that prays on peoples fears.......I wonder how I can get in on it? Have to work on that one.

driver100 · August 2014

cdnpinhead said;

@roadburner said: . . . a hand-wringing bedwetter who is as loopy as the day is long.

Very well put. There are those whose posts I jump right over and then there are yours.

Hey, I say some useful stuff once in awhile too you know.

graphicguy · August 2014

So, I recorded a "Wheeler Dealer" spinoff show where the Mike guy travels around the world trading cars until he comes up with some sort of Super Car.

I was watching it last night and he was in Sao Paulo Brazil (where I've spent a fair bit of time for work). Interesting city. Anyway, I've always marveled at the cars they have there (first time I saw a Ford KA). He traded for a VW Combi Van (kind of cool as it was in great condition). But, he also traded for something he called a "classic". It was a Chevrolet Opala (assuming a derivative of the gem, Opal?).

It looked to me to be a late '70s/early '80s Chevy Monte Carlo. Not the pinnacle of GM's engineering, car building might. It was also a 4 cyl, that when he started it up, reminded me an awful lot of the Chevette''s 4 cyl sound. Again, not a GM bright spot.

Thought it humorous that he'd consider that a classic.

qbrozen · August 2014

Didn't know they made another one of those. I'll have to find it. I enjoyed the first go round. I think it was only 6 or 8 episodes. He wound up with a 996 Porsche in the finale in that one. I remember the travels included Mexico and India. Can't remember the others off the top of my head.

stever · August 2014

@graphicguy, the Classic was sold here too, but only for fleets and rentals iirc. I think it was a post by @imidazol97 where I first heard about them.

Michaell · August 2014

@qbrozen said:
Didn't know they made another one of those. I'll have to find it. I enjoyed the first go round. I think it was only 6 or 8 episodes. He wound up with a 996 Porsche in the finale in that one. I remember the travels included Mexico and India. Can't remember the others off the top of my head.

IIRC, he also was in the UK and Sweden, before ending up in Dubai or somewhere else in the Middle East.

This season, he's buying and selling more cars per episode. I'll have to find it - last night's episode got deleted from the DVR.

Mr_Shiftright · August 2014

Given the carnage reflected in the annual statistics of auto fatalities and injuries, I don't understand how anyone could think that a particular car was "safe". There's really no such thing as a "safe car"--that is marketing poof---at best one could say that "some cars are less dangerous than others". The dynamics of an auto accident are far too complex to plan against them.

After all, you are surrounded by glass, not armor plate.

@driver100 said:

isellhondas · August 2014

One trick that some of the "experts" love to teach car buyer is to "hide" the trade from the deal and spring it after a number has been agreed on.

Any veteran can usually smell this coming.

" Will you be trading in your Buick"

" Ah...I think my neighbor will be buying it"

" No, I think I'll just sell it myself"

Yeah, right!

Then I'll look at the eight year old Century with 140,000 miles and know what's about to happen!

But, I'll pretend otherwise.

We work out a price on the new car, shake hands and I get ready to process the paperwork.

" Ah, maybe I'll just trade in my Century"

That's when the fun starts!

No, we don't want it and few wholesalers will either! It's a 1000.00 car but the customer "knows what they are selling for"

The A/C only needs a charge and the Check Engine light is "probably a loose wire"

The grinder customer already wrung the last dollar out of the new car deal so I can't overallow on the trade. It's hard for some people to come to grips with the fact that WE DON'T WANT THEIR TRADE!

So, to save a deal, we stretch to 1300.00 on the trade and some wholesaler steps up and gives us 1100.00 for it....maybe!

qbrozen · August 2014

yeah, I'm frankly disturbed that advice is still given. In my unprofessional opinion, it seems to me the trade is the HARDER part of the deal these days and a more likely place where it could all fall apart. So to go through all that trouble and waste all that time only to then find out your trade is worth thousands less than you thought.... ugh.

Hell, it gets me annoyed from the other side of the table, too. I've had some salespeople (probably green peas) try to talk price on their vehicle before even evaluating my trade. I have to tell them "well, what I pay for yours will depend greatly on what you want to give me for mine, soo...."

bwia · August 2014

@Mr_Shiftright said:
Given the carnage reflected in the annual statistics of auto fatalities and injuries, I don't understand how anyone could think that a particular car was "safe". There's really no such thing as a "safe car"--that is marketing poof---at best one could say that "some cars are less dangerous than others". The dynamics of an auto accident are far too complex to plan against them.

After all, you are surrounded by glass, not armor plate.

Agreed but your last comment is not entirely true. The accident death rate was extremely high in the last half of the 20th century because of extremely rigid steel structures. Thanks to Mercedes Benz and others for their innovations with crumple zone technology designed to absorb the impact forces of a crash or collision.

dino001 · August 2014

If you really see it coming and you really don't want the trade, you should either let the customer walk after he/she springs the car on you, or leave the room on the new car price to accommodate the unsurprising surprise. You have not and end up bending over, and accepting their tactics, it only validated it (from point of view of maximizing the customer's outcome). It's basically the reciprocal effect of those dealers who use unseemly tactics we all know about, yet keep getting business - people buying things from them also validate their "business model" (in their view, anyway). In both cases, the only way to change peoples' behavior is to act on your disapproval, i.e. walk from the deal - whether dealer or customer.

oldfarmer50 · August 2014

Talk about depreciation, just got a flyer from a local Chrysler dealer offering me $5855 for wifey's 2009 PT Cruiser with 26k miles as a trade.

I'll run right over.

henryn · August 2014

@isellhondas said:

>
i> One trick that some of the "experts" love to teach car buyer is to "hide" the trade from the deal and spring it after a number has been agreed on.
>

Any veteran can usually smell this coming.

>

" Will you be trading in your Buick"

" Ah...I think my neighbor will be buying it"

" No, I think I'll just sell it myself"

Yeah, right!

Then I'll look at the eight year old Century with 140,000 miles and know what's about to happen!

But, I'll pretend otherwise.

We work out a price on the new car, shake hands and I get ready to process the paperwork.

" Ah, maybe I'll just trade in my Century"

>

That's when the fun starts!

>

No, we don't want it and few wholesalers will either! It's a 1000.00 car but the customer "knows what they are selling for"

>

The A/C only needs a charge and the Check Engine light is "probably a loose wire"

>

The grinder customer already wrung the last dollar out of the new car deal so I can't overallow on the trade. It's hard for some people to come to grips with the fact that WE DON'T WANT THEIR TRADE!

>

So, to save a deal, we stretch to 1300.00 on the trade and some wholesaler steps up and gives us 1100.00 for it....maybe!

All of which doesn't apply at all if you already have a piece of paper from CarMax stating that they will buy your car for thousands more than the dealer you're presently talking to.

@qbrozen said:

>

yeah, I'm frankly disturbed that advice is still given. In my unprofessional opinion, it seems to me the trade is the HARDER part of the deal these days and a more likely place where it could all fall apart. So to go through all that trouble and waste all that time only to then find out your trade is worth thousands less than you thought.... ugh.

I'm going to have to (partially) disagree with you on this one. Many, many people never have a clue what they're getting for their trade in. They don't know about your invaluable assistance here on the forums, and they are far "too busy" to go by CarMax and get a real number. (Yeah, right, too busy to spend an hour that could potentially save them thousands of dollars! But I digress...)

The car dealer will (in most cases) inflate the value of your trade (to make you feel better), and not discount his car the same as he would if you were buying outright.

The best advice is not simplistic, as everyone here knows. You have to do ALL of your homework. Know what the true selling price for the new car is (TrueCar is much better than Edmunds at this time, Edmunds needs to work on that). And know what the real market value of your trade is (via qbrozens invalable assistance here in the forums AND a trip to CarMax). Have everything with you when you visit the dealer, including scratch paper and a calculator. All smartphones have a calculator built in, in case you never looked.

Even then, some people are just going to be bad at this. We all remember the recent article where some fairly high percentage of people surveyed said they would rather go to the dentist than shop for a new car. Now some of those people are just going to be afraid of confrontation, there are a lot of people who are very, very uncomfortable with the idea of telling a salesman that he is full of ____. Several of my friends and relatives routinely ask me to help them buy a car, because they know I'm good at it. Heck, I enjoy telling a salesman that he's full of ____. (smile)

oldfarmer50 · August 2014

Speaking of trades:

If i do toss reason aside and go for the 2015 Mustang which do you think would be a more successful strategy?

--Straight deal no trade, offer $500 over invoice and allow one bump to maybe invoice +$800. Would this fly considering demand on this new model?

--Trade the Eclipse, which Edmunds says is worth about $9650, and ask maybe $10k which with the $800 tax savings equates to an invoice deal?

I see cars comparable to mine on lots and on AutoTrader for $11-12k so there should be some profit in the trade for a dealer.

Or is a 6 year old car undesirable to a dealer even with low milage?

henryn · August 2014

Look through the dealers used car inventory, either online or via a walk through. You can quickly get an idea of whether your trade would fit with what he normally sells.

Then go over to Real-World Trade-In Values and ask qbrozen to look up the auction numbers for you. Those auction numbers may be in line with what you see here on Edmunds appraisal, but they could also be rather far apart.

Either way, you'll have a lot more information to help you in your decision making.

imidazol97 · August 2014

@isellhondas said:
i> One trick that some of the "experts" love to teach car buyer is to "hide" the trade from the deal and spring it after a number has been agreed on.
" Will you be trading in your Buick"
" Ah...I think my neighbor will be buying it"
" No, I think I'll just sell it myself"

A few new car purchases ago I just asked the dealer to price it both ways. So he did
just that. It put him in the spot of fairly pricing my trade to his store as to what he
could give me for it vs what I could get for it in the 6 weeks until the new car was
delivered.

henryn · August 2014

Ahhh, the labor day sales have started. I just saw this:

Take advantage of our Labor Day Bonus Cash and get $1,000 to use toward the purchase of a new 2014 Dodge Grand Caravan or 2014 Charger from August 19 to September 2, 2014.

abacomike · August 2014

@henryn said:

"Ahhh, the labor day sales have started. I just saw this:"

If the Labor Day ads for car sales just started, then Christmas ads can't be far beyond!

mako1a · August 2014

If i do toss reason aside and go for the 2015 Mustang which do you think would be a more successful strategy?

The strategy you didn't mention. Wait until 2019 and buy that 2015 for a fraction of the 2014 price.

Mr_Shiftright · August 2014

Oh I meant that objects can penetrate the passenger compartment easily in all kinds of freakish ways--it doesn't matter what the rest of the car is doing, in other words or how well it is built. There are too many variables that keep a car from being "safe" in an accident.

@bwia said:
Agreed but your last comment is not entirely true. The accident death rate was extremely high in the last half of the 20th century because of extremely rigid steel structures. Thanks to Mercedes Benz and others for their innovations with crumple zone technology designed to absorb the impact forces of a crash or collision.

roadburner · August 2014

@isellhondas said:
One trick that some of the "experts" love to teach car buyer is to "hide" the trade from the deal and spring it after a number has been agreed on.

Any veteran can usually smell this coming.

" Will you be trading in your Buick"

" Ah...I think my neighbor will be buying it"

" No, I think I'll just sell it myself"

Yeah, right!

Then I'll look at the eight year old Century with 140,000 miles and know what's about to happen!

I agree with you 100% that a buyer should NOT hide the trade, but in one case a dealer pushed us to include a trade to the point that he lost the sale.

We were looking at a new Xterra back in 2005. The Nissan salesperson was very nice but her sales manager just HAD to try and close the deal. immediately. Carmax had made an offer of $5,000 on my wife's 130k mile 1997 528i but I had found a buyer who was offering me $10,000. I told the manager we were still looking and I wanted to sell the 5er before we bought anything. He then began to tell me how the private sale might not pan out, blah, blah, blah, and what can we do to put you in a car today. That song and dance sent us back-once again-to the BMW dealer, where she found a CPO 2004 X3...

robr2 · August 2014

@abacomike said:
henryn said:

"Ahhh, the labor day sales have started. I just saw this:"

If the Labor Day ads for car sales just started, then Christmas ads can't be far beyond!

I've already seen Halloween candy at the grocery store and pumpkin beer at the package store. Too early.

abacomike · August 2014

@Mr_Shiftright‌ said:

"Oh I meant that objects can penetrate the passenger compartment easily in all kinds of freakish ways"

No question about that, however there are outstanding technology advances in assisting drivers to drive more defensively and safely to reduce the chances of car accidents.

I would not buy a car today if it did not have a rear camera, blind spot monitors, lane departure sensors, accident avoidance sensors, parking sensors and now, even surround camera system. These systems do not need driver input to function and they provide the driver with a myriad of feedback which makes him a better and safer driver.

houdini1 · August 2014

@roadburner said:

Just what I was thinking !!

oldfarmer50 · August 2014

@mako1a said:
If i do toss reason aside and go for the 2015 Mustang which do you think would be a more successful strategy?

The strategy you didn't mention. Wait until 2019 and buy that 2015 for a fraction of the 2014 price.

2019? Do they allow you to park your car at the nursing home?

fezo · August 2014

She wasn't inhaling? Is she related to Bill Clinton?

roadburner · August 2014

@abacomike said:
I would not buy a car today if it did not have a rear camera, blind spot monitors, lane departure sensors, accident avoidance sensors, parking sensors and now, even surround camera system. These systems do not need driver input to function and they provide the driver with a myriad of feedback which makes him a better and safer driver.

As always, to each his own. As for me, I can easily do without every item you mentioned, and some of them(lane departure, blind spot sensors) would actually keep me from buying a car if they could not be deactivated permanently- and by that I mean I don't want to have to turn them off every time I start the car...

Michaell · August 2014

@robr2 said:
I've already seen Halloween candy at the grocery store and pumpkin beer at the package store. Too early.

Here, too.

Seriously?

oldfarmer50 · August 2014

Two interesting stories on CNBC:

One was talking about a sub prime car loan bubble similar to the one that caused the GM and Chrysler bankruptcies in 2008. I think driver100 mentioned this before.

What's with these car companies?

The other story was about the used car boom. They were recommending auto parts stocks because people were buying so many used cars.

Explains some of the crazy used car prices you see on line.

driver100 · August 2014

@oldfarmer50 said:
Talk about depreciation, just got a flyer from a local Chrysler dealer offering me $5855 for wifey's 2009 PT Cruiser with 26k miles as a trade.

With 26K on it it is worth a lot more than that to your wife. It would make no logical sense to trade it in and take that kind of loss. Those letters the dealer sends out must be computer generated, no normal sensible person would take that ad seriously.

graphicguy · August 2014

Craig...I'm with you. The number is the number, whether there's a trade or not. I realize the dealer has to make a buck on the trade, too. It does detract a bit from my desire to put one number out, and that's what I write the check for. But, I look at the difference. If I feel a low ball offer on my trade, then that will scuttle the sale. But, if the dealer's fair, I'll work with him on the trade.

graphicguy · August 2014

@qbrozen said:
Didn't know they made another one of those. I'll have to find it. I enjoyed the first go round. I think it was only 6 or 8 episodes. He wound up with a 996 Porsche in the finale in that one. I remember the travels included Mexico and India. Can't remember the others off the top of my head.

Q....just started watching it last night. Mike is going from Brazil to the U.S. next. Looking forward to that portion as he'll be trading in and out of cars I know more than a little bit about. All-in-all, fun show.

oldfarmer50 · August 2014

@driver100 said:
Those letters the dealer sends out must be computer generated, no normal sensible person would take that ad seriously.

Oh for sure. Most PTs of that vintage would have 60-70k miles so they wouldn't know about our low milage. They mention that was average black book value which still stinks.

Kirstie_H · August 2014

@imidazol97 said:
A few new car purchases ago I just asked the dealer to price it both ways. So he did
just that. It put him in the spot of fairly pricing my trade to his store as to what he
could give me for it vs what I could get for it in the 6 weeks until the new car was
delivered.

That seems like a good - and honest - tactic, especially if you actually have the option to sell it yourself.

jayrider · August 2014

@oldfarmer50 said:
Speaking of trades:

If i do toss reason aside and go for the 2015 Mustang which do you think would be a more successful strategy?

--Straight deal no trade, offer $500 over invoice and allow one bump to maybe invoice +$800. Would this fly considering demand on this new model?

--Trade the Eclipse, which Edmunds says is worth about $9650, and ask maybe $10k which with the $800 tax savings equates to an invoice deal?

I see cars comparable to mine on lots and on AutoTrader for $11-12k so there should be some profit in the trade for a dealer.

Or is a 6 year old car undesirable to a dealer even with low milage?

Option Three : trade the wife's PT Cruiser in on the Mustang.

houdini1 · August 2014

@jayrider said:

And tell her the Stang is for her...then just gradually insinuate yourself into the drivers seat !

fezo · August 2014

Those roboletters are a scream. An annoying scream but a scream. I keep getting mail telling me what a high demand there is for 07 Camrys and how actively they are looking for them. Really? There must only be half a million of them out there.

They wouldn't pay what that car is worth to my wife. Not even close. It's am XLE so full of 07 bells and whistles but it's got over 130K on it. To me and to her that's nothing. It runs as new. Not my cup of tea but she loves it. Next time I have to hit NYC (right now scheduled at 10/6) might take that up. There's really nothing on the Garden State Parkway, the New Jersey Turnpike that calls for the Mazda and a car with a balky clutch in the city can be a pain in the neck. The only really fun part is the Parkway entrance ramp with a couple of curves that you want to hit traffic speed by the end of it. The Camry can do that but the Mazda likes doing that.

bwia · August 2014

Oh, Oh, I may have committed a Venial Sin because I was flagged for Spamming.

Apparently, I got into this predicament when I mentioned a particular auto dealership's return policy. I was not promoting the dealership in anyway. In fact, I was skeptical of the veracity of their unconditional return policy.

I beg for forgiveness and I hope the Edmunds' hosts will remove the offending post. A thousand pardons for this unfortunate faux pas.

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