Synthetic motor oil

wtd44 · May 2009

I bought the 5 quart jug of Quaker State Q synthetic at an "introductory" price, and sent in for the rebate. If I should use it in a 6 quart crank case, I might elect to mix the 5 quarts with 1 quart of Mobil 1. I solicit commentary!

ruking1 · May 2009

They are should be compatible across which ever common specification/s. So for example if Mobil One is an SL and the QS Q synthetic is SL then...
However from a VOA/UOA point of view, you would not get so called "pure" analysis.

wtd44 · May 2009

What I didn't state was the underlying reason; that being my disinterest in paying nearly $6 for a make-up quart of Q synthetic. What is your off hand opinion of using the 5 quarts of Q with 1 quart of mineral motor oil? Would you risk running that combo for, say 10K in a V8 Mercury Mountaineer with out an analysis?

ruking1 · May 2009

When I first read your response, I thought I had misread your first posting on the subject. But indeed, mineral oil is just another option. The straight up answer, again compatible.(SL to SL for example) . Would I risk running the combo? It is not a risk. While I have done it in the past, I would not do it, as I do not want the 2 or more chemistries to be @ odds with one another.

wtd44 · May 2009

At this time, I do not have an out-of-warranty vehicle with a crankcase capacity of 5 or less quarts. I do have a 5 quart jug of the "Q" synthetic and 2 vehicles that are past warranty with 6 quart crankcases. I suppose the best plan is to buy the extra quart at full price, but on the other hand, I recall that all the current synthetics claim to be compatible with mineral oils. I am wondering if using a quart of mineral oil (e.g. Chevron) with the 5 quarts of "Q" will degrade the longevity of the "Q" to the point that running the combination for 10K miles in a 6 quart crankcase is risky. I suspect it would work just fine, but I am not a petroleum engineer! :shades:

ruking1 · May 2009

Since they started years ago coming out with (4 qt) 1 gal and 5 qt containers, I have been a fan. It seems packaged that way, it is usually cheaper per qt. There are also usually less items to recycle.

The real benefit to me is since I have crankcases that range from a full 4 L to 7 qts, it is much easier just to pour a whole container than multiple smaller ones.

wtd44 · May 2009

Titrating the final volume from a large container is the only hassle, really.

roadburner · May 2009

Discuss...

ruking1 · May 2009

Because you have a (gasser) turbo, I would be almost intensely curious as what would be the comparison/contrast (numbers) with Mobil One Turbo Diesel Truck 5w40, with your already excellent numbers .

link title

The list of standards it complies with is pretty varied.

link title

I have been using Mobil One 5w30 for a lot of years (22 years) and miles (745,000), and with 15,000 to more recently 20,000 miles OCI's.

I have been using Mobil One 5w40, ( lots of AKA's) for fewer years(6) and miles (118,000) and 20,000 to 25,000 miles OCI's.

ruking1 · May 2009

I went over my post and probably should have more clearly stated why the comparison / contrast between Mobil One's: 5w30 vs Turbo Diesel 5w40.

Upshot: Other UOA's in turbo applications showed app 40 % better (lesser) wear with the Mobil One 5W40 ESP/CJ-4 5w40 Turbo Diesel formulations. To add further complexity, Mobil One also has the ESP 5w30 VW 504/507 application: which is long life compatible with VW (obviously) BMW, MB and Porsche turbo applications.... In addition, not that Either and/or BOTH 5w30's can not handle turbos applications (if indeed the oem calls for it) but as the part of the name implies: it is designed for ... turbos.

mhtn · June 2009

I'm thinking of switching to M1 for my 02' Nissan Sentra. I've been changing oil at every 3000 mile interval with dino oil. After the switch, I plan to have 2 oil changes with M1 at a 2000 mile interval before leaving M1 in there longer (6000 miles). The car has been running great so far.

Any advice is greatly appreciated.

shipo · June 2009

Why mess with the short intervals, just go directly to six, eight or even ten thousand miles.

obyone · June 2009

Think he wants to get rid of whatever dino residual is left. Like a synthetic flush so to speak.

the_big_al · June 2009

What I did when I switched to M1 in my cars is I ran an M1 oil change for an interval of 3K miles which is what I had been doing with straight Valvoline dino oil. Then I went to a 10K oil change with M1 0W30 for all 3 of my vehicles. They are an '04 Impala with 42K, '04 Astro with 105K and an '01 S-10 with 120K. They were switched to M1 about 20K miles ago and 15K miles ago for the S-10. All have had no problems, although I haven't done an oil analysis to see exactly what might be happening with the longer intervals. After reading through a lot of this forum though, I feel safe and comfortable doing such a long change interval. I use a factory OEM filter and check the oil about every couple thousand miles. I find I have to use about 2 quarts between changes to keep the oil in the safe range.

ruking1 · June 2009

It is perfectly fine to switch at 80,000 miles. The real question is probably why?

M1 being one of the better off the shelf PAO IV synthetics is NOT a miracle elixir. It will not reverse whatever transpired for the first 80,000 miles. It will not cure or reverse mechanical issues.

What it can and does well is to slow down the already established wear patterns, and run just fine up to 15,000 miles OCI's.

I do not know what it is for the 02 Sentra. but start with the oem's recommended OCI (normally recommended with conventional oil).

So for example, Honda Civic's is at 10,000 miles. If that (YOUR oem recommendation) causes you discomfort, really consider staying with the conventional oil as you are really wasting your money with M1 for anything less than your oem recommendation.

Having said that, I run M1 0w20,5w20 @ 20,000 miles OCI's. @ 86,000 miles this thing runs like a top. It has oil consumption of app 1/4 to 1/2 qt (8 oz to 16 oz) per 20,000 miles. I am a bit hyper active in that I still run the oem recommended oil FILTER change @ 20,000 miles. (technically every other oil change)

mhtn · June 2009

Here is what I'm going to do.

I will switch to M1 today for my Sentra and will have another change after 3000 miles (3750 is the recommended interval for Sentra with stop and go traffic). After that I will let it go for 7500 between changes.

I've recently purchased a Hyundai Santa Fe and have been using it in weekends only. I don't think I can put more than 5000 miles/year in the car. It is at 2000 miles now. Is it OK to switch to M1 now or should I wait a little bit longer (say 3000). I plan to have 2 OIC's/year with M1. Or it is OK with 1 change/year.

Thank you very much for your help.

wtd44 · June 2009

If I had a Honda Civic, I'd never run it 10K on any mineral oil. And in fact, I'd be getting a little edgy at 10K on M1, but could probably stand to allow that length at least one time. Perhaps running assays would calm me, but it would be so much easier to just change the oil! Is the new Quaker State "Q Power" a PAO IV?

ruking1 · June 2009

I have read in passing in any number of articles, that unless you are that "driver from hell" (please, no disrespect intended, just trying to cut to the chase) most folks fall into the "normal. " So pick one or two and adjust the miles accordingly.

On your Santa Fe, 5,000 per year can be sweet or sour. So for example the majority of your trips are of 30 min or more duration: Change it every 15,000 whether it needs it or not. If it is driven i.e., 1-3 miles (old man/lady syndrome) that is about as "corrosive" as it gets. I would change every year and stay with conventional oil.

mhtn · June 2009

No offense taken. I consider myself a mild driver. I hardly go pass 2500 rpm when accelerating and I brake gently most of the time. One more thing, I notice that after getting pass 70,000 miles, the engine consumed about a quart of 5W30 dino oil between 3000 mile OCI's. After I switch to 10W30 dino, oil burning reduced greatly (after 2000 miles oil was still at full mark). My question is when I switch to M1 should I stay with 10W30 or get the M1 10W30 for high millage?

For my Santa Fe, the weekend trip is usually about 15 min (7 miles) in duration with occasional longer trips of 30 mins. I'm torn now because I'm between the 2 options you gave me. I really want to go with M1 for its added protection but it might not worth it since I don't use the car often enough.

ruking1 · June 2009

I would stay with 5w30 conventional and/or M1. If you decide to go with M1 (I have gone) go with the 0w30. Some oil use is NORMAL. How much as you would imagine depends on engine model, driver/s habits, environment, etc. So for example, I have an oil "consumer" in a Corvette Z06 @ 1 qt per 5,000 miles !! So as you can see I use app 3 qts in a 15,000 mile OCI.

Let us know which you decide to do.

the_big_al · June 2009

I too use M1 0w30... and I go through about 2 qts per 10K OCI. Until recently the car and truck were driven mostly short distances - mostly city and less than 15 miles. So I figure this is normal... They have used oil at about the same rate since new even when doing 3k OCI on regular dino oil.

ruking1 · June 2009

The Honda/Ford specifications (Ford being the more stringent) for 5w20 and certainly 0w20 makes for a VERY robust oil specification. I personally would have no issues running 10,000 miles on a conventional 5w20 oil . I did run the (5w20)oem fill, 10,000 miles as per oem (emphatic) recommendations. So actually I have been running Mobil One for app 76,000 miles.

mhtn · June 2009

OK, it's official.

M1 0W30 was put in my 02' Sentra and M1 5W20 in my Santa Fe last Sat. Initial impression was that both cars probably ran cooler. More time is needed for me to verify this but the usual wall of heat did not rush at my face when I opened the hood after driving about 7 miles with the ambient temperature at about 87F.

As for the Santa Fe, I noticed that the engine seemed easier to start. Usually, when the engine was cold, it took about 1 to 2 seconds with dino oil. But now, it was instant. Nice!

I would have gone for 0W20 for the Santa Fe if I could find the it in the gallon jugs which were cheaper than buying in quart bottles.

So the first impression was good with synthetic oil. Let's see if it can improve mileage a little bit.

ruking1 · June 2009

Since most cars have long since "lost" the oil temperature gauge, one of those hand held laser gun point and shoot temperature gauges will give you the hard measurements.

But by in large when I was doing comparisons, your points were what I have observed also.

mhtn · June 2009

I have one of those point and shoot temp gauges but I forgot to use it. I guess I was too eager to switch to synthetic that I forgot everything else

Now that I have synthetic oil in the Sentra, I don't want have another oil change too soon as I planned. However, I'm concerned that synthetic oil may dislodge the sludge that might have formed in the engine when it had dino oil and cause blockage. Do you think a filter change at 2000 miles would be sufficient?

shipo · June 2009

"However, I'm concerned that synthetic oil may dislodge the sludge that might have formed in the engine when it had dino oil and cause blockage."

That is highly-HIGHLY unlikely. While synthetic oil may clean a bit better than conventional oil, it isn't even remotely akin to "Scrubbing-Bubbles". If the synthetic oil in your engine does any remedial cleaning, it will be done very slowly over a period of many thousands of miles (as in tens of thousands) and will not necessitate a mid-term filter change.

FWIW, if your engine does in fact have any "sludge" in it, it is unlikely that oil by itself (or even any of the miracle engine cleaners for that matter) will do anything to the sludge. Why? True sludge is hard, very hard, hard like a stiff plastic; and it is very resistant to being dissolved by any solvents that would be safe to run in your engine for any length of time.

Best regards,
Shipo

ruking1 · June 2009

The only thing I would add to Shipo's post :

just do the research to make sure your two models are not "oil cookers".(ie like some Toyota V4's, the ones they settled with in class action suits). This is very,very very remote, I might add. Engines that cook oil WILL cook M1, albeit @ a much higher rated temp (M1 has a much higher temp point), but M1 has almost exponentially greater sludge resistance.

Assuming they are NOT (oil cookers) go to a min of your oem recommended normal mileage intervals. This will more than likely get you in the sweet spot of so called "aged" oils where the wear RATEs are far less aggressive than "new" oil.

mhtn · June 2009

Thank you, Shipo and Ruking, for your insight and advice. I feel much better now.

One more question: Does synthetic oil have shelf life? I have several quarts of leftover after the oil change. At the current rate that I'm putting mileage on the cars, I won't see myself having another oil change in about a year. Will it be OK for me to use this leftover for the next time?

Thanks!

ruking1 · June 2009

For sure I would !!

shipo · June 2009

While synthetic oil may not have an indefinite shelf life, if it remains in an unopened bottle on said "shelf", it can last many-many years with no degradation.

Best regards,
Shipo

mhtn · June 2009

Ruking and Shipo,
Many thanks!

wtd44 · June 2009

I recall from my youth tearing down V8 engines and removing sludge with a putty knife! Oil has really changed from those days. :shades:

shipo · June 2009

Yup, I remember the same thing, however, if memory serves, the sludge that formed in engines back in the day was typically left behind by Quaker State or Pennzoil (i.e. Pennsylvania Grade Crude) and yes, it was kind of thick and gooey. That said, if you were to take apart one of the Toyota I4 sludge monsters, the stuff you would find in it is very nearly as hard as rocks.

Best regards,
Shipo

mhtn · June 2009

At link title, they suggest synthetic oil as one of the fixes for sludge.

I've been told that one of the simple ways to tell if an engine has a potential sludge problem is to look under the oil cap. Is this true?

ruking1 · June 2009

Thanks for the link for the "sludge a matics" It is good for folks to really see the information they so often try to keep opaque.

mhtn · June 2009

Since I have several quarts of leftover, I would like to use it in my lawn mower. Would that be quite a treat for the lawn mower?

ruking1 · June 2009

Sorry, I can't say about lawnmowers. It is an aversion reaction thang for me. When you say lawnmower it brings me back to the days when one of my responsibilities was 110 acres of grass in Southern Florida. GEEZZZZ you can hear grass grow there !!!

shipo · June 2009

A couple of points:

1) I have always felt that the Synlube web site was full of more B.S. and fiction than anything else. Said another way, I would heartily recommend that you take anything you read on that site with a huge grain of salt.

2) Trying to determine if an engine has sludge in it via what you can see through the oil filler cap is fraught with pitfalls and false diagnosis. Two examples:

- - 2a) Many engines have the oil filler cap positioned so far from the heat of the main engine that a grey emulsion of oil and condensed water can collect in that vicinity and, if left alone long enough, form sludge. That said, the rest of the engine can be completely sludge free. Unfortunately many folks see the junk under the cap and immediately assume that their engine is sludged.

- - 2b) Many "Vee" style engines are prone to sludge only on one bank of cylinders, especially the bank with the PCV valve. In this scenario, it is not at all unusual for the oil filler cap side to be spotlessly clean while the PCV side can be completely sludged up. If this turns out to be the case in any given engine, looking in the oil filler cap would incorrectly lead the viewer to assume that the engine is completely sludge.

3) Personally, I would never use synthetic oil in any occasional use engine. Why? This goes back to the huge number of issues that Mobil had with their Mobil AV 1 line of aviation oil. Among other problems, it was found that engines lubricated with AV 1 were rusting from the inside out, a problem that didn't exist for identical engines lubricated with conventional oil. Why the rust? Two reasons, 1) due to the fact that synthetic oil stays less viscous when it reaches the ambient temperature, it has a tendency to more completely drain back into the oil sump, and 2) due to the higher stability of synthetic oil, it has far less of a tendency to form a protective layer of varnish in the inner surfaces of the engine. As a side note, if the engine was previously lubricated by conventional oil, the AV 1 would gradually clean the surfaces and allow rust to start forming.

Long story short, use your synthetic oil for your high use engines (like your car) and use conventional oil for your occasional use engines.

Best regards,
Shipo

mhtn · June 2009

man, that didn't sound good

I hope you were using one of those big lawnmowers which you could ride on

The manual for my Santa Fe specifies either 5W20 or 5W30 oil but the oil cap specifically says 5W20. Is there much difference between the two? If I can use 0W30 in the Santa Fe, that would be nice since I can simplify my oil purchase for I can use it for both of my Santa Fe and Sentra.

mhtn · June 2009

Thanks, Shipo, for the info. What's best for one thing may not be for the other.

ruking1 · June 2009

At the time we had almost every lawn care device known. Yes we did have those "ganged" banks of cutters you could tow with a tractor. We had also an articulated hydralic mower, so one could do sides of steep mounds, and or depressions.

Curious the manual recommends either 5w20 or 5w30. The applications I am familar with, recommend either one or the other: 0w20,5w20 vs 0w30 5w30 10w30. Frankly I do not have enough data to speculate.

wtd44 · June 2009

Early in the appearance of 5W-20 oils as a specified lube for certain car brands (Honda and Ford were early adopters) the question arose concerning using 5W-30 under varying situations that might make 5W-20 hard to acquire. I recall that eventually, the soothe sayers declared that the "20" part was there simply to help the manufacturers meet CAFE requirements. Supposedly the manufacturers would not acknowledge that for fear of stirring the ire of the government overlords of mileage. Eventually, many people (including me) came to accept the idea that "30" lube was okay, at least for occasional use. I still have a little trepidation over going to "30" but I do so when it is particularly convenient to do so.

mhtn · June 2009

The following was taken directly form Hyundai Santa Fe owner's Manual...

"...recommended oil... 5W-20, 5W-30 or 10W30... Note: For good fuel economy, SAE 5W-20 (5W-30), ILSAC GF-3 engine oil is preferred. If SAE 5W-20, ILSAC GF3 engine oil is not available, other recommended engine oil for corresponding temperature ranges can be used."

When they wrote "5W-20 (5W-30)", does it mean that they considered 5W-20 the same as 5W-30. If so, I can use 0W-30 for my Santa Fe, right? since M1 says that 0W-30 exceeds manufacture requirement of 5W-30 or 10W-30

richardson · June 2009

Ruking1, What cars did you have with oil temperature gauges? The cars I had from forty or fifty years ago had coolant temperature and oil pressure gauges.

ruking1 · June 2009

Z06 Corvette has:(among others)

analog gauged coolant temp, oil pressure;

computer text display (by way of press button decision tree) oil pressure,coolant temp, oil temp, (etc,etc,.)

I have never done an A/B test of synthetic vs conventional oil. So for this vehicle, I can not say that given sets of conditions: one is hotter and/or cooler than the other..

richardson · June 2009

Interesting

shipo · June 2009

FWIW, my 1979 VW Scirocco and my 1982 Audi GT Coupe both had oil pressure and oil temperature gauges.

roadburner · June 2009

Most of the BMW M cars and turbo cars had/have oil temperature gauges.

zaken1 · June 2009

{Personally, I would never use synthetic oil in any occasional use engine. Why? This goes back to the huge number of issues that Mobil had with their Mobil AV 1 line of aviation oil. Among other problems, it was found that engines lubricated with AV 1 were rusting from the inside out, a problem that didn't exist for identical engines lubricated with conventional oil. Why the rust? Two reasons, 1) due to the fact that synthetic oil stays less viscous when it reaches the ambient temperature, it has a tendency to more completely drain back into the oil sump, and 2) due to the higher stability of synthetic oil, it has far less of a tendency to form a protective layer of varnish in the inner surfaces of the engine.}

I thought that aviation engines were made of aluminum; and that aluminum can't rust. So what parts are rusting, and what metal are they made of? Also, it is my understanding that 1> Synthetic oil is not particularly hygroscopic; so it won't pull water out of the atmosphere; like brake fluid does. 2> Since the crankcases on aviation engines do not have openings where rain can fall in; the only way that moisture could get into the crankcase would be through humid air which diffuses in through the breathers. And there ain't gonna be a great quantity of water which comes in by that route. 3> During WWII, airplanes which were based in the Arctic had to have their oil diluted before starting with kerosene or a similar substance; in order to reduce the oil viscosity to a consistency where the starter motor could crank the engine over. It was found that the kerosene or whatever was used to dilute the oil would quickly boil off when the oil temperature came up to normal levels; which then allowed the oil to then function at its designed viscosity.

Aotomobile engines will also boil off water which accumulates through condensation as well as boiling off the water which comes as a normal byproduct of combustion. (In addition to the moisture which accumulates from storage, a car engine will put a gallon of water out the exhaust for every ten gallons of fuel it burns.) That's why cars exhausts will steam in cold weather. American car engines use far more cast iron in their innards than aircraft engines; but cars have been using synthetic oil for years, and I never heard of a rusting problem that resulted from doing so.

So where is this data that documents the rusting problem from use of synthetic oil?

colloquor · June 2009

FWIW... I've used Mobil 1 10W30 in my Toro lawn mower for many years. This past winter I tore the B&S engine down for inspection, and it had absolutely no rust or corrosion anywhere. A couple of years ago, I put new head gaskets on my 1994 Dodge Grand Caravan 3.3L V6 at 168K which had used Mobil 1 5W-30 since around 2K miles. It was perfectly clean on the top and bottom end (removed the oil pan for a "look see"), but there was some varnish, especially on the conn rods, and on the rockers. But, you could still see the factory honing marks in the cylinder bores.

Synthetic motor oil

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