Synthetic motor oil

shipo

"The best thing for the consumer to do is to just compare the test ratings (ACEA, Ford, GM specs, SM, GF-4, etc.) all on the bottle. In my opinion, a turbo gas engine should have an oil that meets HTO-06 (Mobil 1 synthetic 5w-30). Non-turbo gas engine users should go with a synthetic that has strong test evidence that it does lower wear, Castrol Edge 5w-30, and passes many tough tests."

Keep in mind that the VW/Audi 502.00, 503.01.505.xx, 506.xx, and 507.xx oil specifications are the original series of oil standards purpose designed for turbocharged engines, and other than the fact that the HTO-06 oils are generally thinner (for fuel economy?), I seriously doubt that they have anything on the newer VW/Audi oil specifications when it comes to forced induction engines.

Best regards,
Shipo

coldcranker

shipo, I know what you mean. The HTO-06 appears to be a turbo spec for 5w-30 oils, a lower viscosity than a Mobil1 0w-40, which has the following specs, a good oil to use in a turbo car calling for a 40 oil:
Mercedes MB 229.5
BMW Longlife 01
Porsche Approval List 2002
VW 502.00/505.00/503.01 -- seems to be in 40 wt oils only
GM-LL-A-025 (gasoline)
GM-LL-B-025 (diesel)
ACEA A3, B3/B4
API SM/CF

Thing about the HTO-06 is how few oils qualify for it. Mobil 1 synthetic, and I think Pennzoil Platinum synthetic qualifies. It seems to be special test for minimizing deposits caused by cooking the oil in a turbo.

I ran Mobil1 0w-40 a few years ago, and that stuff is just too thick when cold. I left it outside one night in a bottle on the porch when it got down to -5 deg F, along with a Mobil1 5w-20 right next to it, and the 5w-20 was much thinner (flowed better) at that -5 deg F. Ford is almost always specifying 5w-20 anyway, an oil that gets into the valve stems and coats the rings best, according to some engineering papers I read a while back, so its a good idea. A 5w-30 is something you can use in just about any vehicle, including current Fords if you'd like, so I'm glad Castrol Edge is a 5w-30, goes with about anything.

For my own application, I'll stay with the Valvoline Synpower until Castrol Edge comes out in a 5w-20 viscosity, which they might do later. Synpower runs the Sequence IVA cam wear test 4x better than Mobil 1 due to better ZDDP retention over time.

coldcranker

Turns out Valvoline Synpower's Sequence IVA test results "leaked" out somehow. They are also saying Mobil 1 synthetic oil DOES NOT PASS Sequence IVA (and SM/GF-4, since Sequence IVA is a part of those tests). Valvoline Synpower 5w-30 scores 20 microns on the Sequence IVA test, and 90 is the wear limit, so that sounds good. A link to the info is at PDF file of Valvoline Synpower Sequence IVA test and Mobil 1's failure to pass it -- click here

Some people are saying Exxon-Mobil (which made a profit of 40+ billion dollars in 2007 and again in 2008) has lawyers that have nothing to say to anybody about anything, keeping strangely silent and allowing both Valvoline and Castrol to prove Mobil 1 has high wear rates. Maybe they will improve their products. Actually, Exxon-Mobil could be in trouble as their oil doesn't seem to meet SM/GF-4, even though they have been telling everybody it does......hmmmm

tamu2002

I recently changed the oil in our Nissan Quest and added a tad too much oil. The oil is a little bit above the full mark. My guess is maybe less than 1/5 quart. I know it could be harmful to have too much oil, but am not sure how much is really too much. I'd appreciate you all's comments.

tamu2002

ruking1

Actually they will not tell you this, but.... not a big deal (6.4 oz).

Now 1.5 to 2 quarts.... Yes, get the level correct.

tamu2002

Thanks! That's good to hear. I actually crawled underneath the van and drained some. But the drain plug accidentally completely came off and I ended up draining too much. Then when I refilled it I filled too much again! Clumsy me! I'll take your word for it and sleep soundly now. The Quest's oil stick is very hard to read.

ruking1

You are welcome. I also would recommend to check your oem owners manual. dipstick checking procedure! Some of these oems try to make rocket science what CLEARLY is not and complicated rocket science "easy".

I have two machines that you (should) follow a dipstick checking procedure!!????? HELLO !!! I mean what happened to: if the level is on add you add, if the level is on full..... nuff already ??? The discussion is almost comical. Your problem is solved! ?

tamu2002

What happened was the level changed on me. I stopped adding when the level appeared to be almost exactly at full, with the car on ramps. Then after driving, the level got slightly higher :confuse: The manual says it takes 4.2 rt, but the level barely touches the low mark after adding 4.2 qt. So I always have to add more. It's frustrating when you can't trust the car maker's own manual.

the_big_al

I feel your pain... I used to work at a quick lube shop years ago and we had manuals that dictated how much oil including filter should be added. The manuals were pretty specific on years, makes, models, and engine sizes so you could pretty much pin point how much oil needed to go into each car. For the most part each vehicle's dip stick coincided with the manual. When we added the recommended amounts, the dip stick read "full" or very nearly so. However, mid 90's and up Ford trucks "required" 6 qts according to the manuals. When you added that amount, the dipstick still showed at least 1/2 quart low and on some models, it would register almost 1 full qt low. We weren't allowed to add more to bring it to the full mark and I can't tell you the number of people we had that would check their oil lever after we were done and come back screaming because we had underfilled it. I would then hand them a quart of oil, kindly show them our shop manual and explain the situation. I would also explain that I wasn't allowed to add more than 6 qts, but I was confident the vehicle was not under-filled and if they would like, here is a quart of oil that you may have so that you can add more to bring the oil level up to "full".

Not very many people took that quart of oil and most understood after I had talked with them and the next time they brought their vehicle in they didn't say anything. It was usually just the 1st timers that had issues, which were understandable. I did have a couple that knew we wouldn't add more than 6 qts and so they always bought an extra quart (I only gave them a free qt the first time) and would add it each time in the parking lot before they left.

altair4

Just curious, so what are you saying? The manual was wrong, the dip stick was wrong, or what?

shipo

Six of our last seven cars would register a half of a quart low when the recommended amount of oil was added to the engine following an oil change (and a test drive). My current Mazda3 i 2.0 is my first car since 1993 that registers "Full" when the prescribed amount of oil is added.

Best regards,
Shipo

coldcranker

Would the oil level be different using conventional vs. synthetic oil? I'm confused. I don't know what oil levels have to do with synthetic oil, which is the subject of this particular thread.

shipo

No, a quart is a quart is a quart, regardless of whether you're talking about conventional oil, synthetic oil, water, milk, or... (you get the idea). The difference here is that some manufacturers spec enough oil th bring the level up to the mid point between the hash marks on the dip stick, and others publish a spec that will bring the level up to the upper hash mark.

Best regards,
Shipo

richardson

Shipo, You've returned. I thought you were mia.

shipo

Shipo, You've returned. I thought you were mia.

Hmmm, interesting. I hadn't really thought about it in those terms, but you're correct. I just looked back at my recent posts and I found that I went about eight months without a single post. Sorry about that, I assure you it was unintentional as I've been monitoring this discussion all along. I guess I just didn't have anything to say (yeah-yeah-yeah, I know, HIGHLY unusual for me).

Best regards,
Shipo

richardson

Well, for what it's worth, welcome back.

shipo

Thanks! :shades:

coldcranker

Anybody know whether Polyol Ester based synthetics (Redline is the only one available for car usage, as others are for jet engines only) are any better than PAO? I do notice that Redline 0w20 has a better pour point of -76 deg F, but the other basic specs aren't much difference. It bugs me that Redline only seems to certify it as an SM oil, and doesn't have GF-4, ACEA, Ford, GM, or other specs listed. Also, does this polyol ester based oil swell or shrink the seals?

ruking1

I routinely run 20,000 miles OCI (and 20,000 miles oil FILTER changes) with a Honda Civic (nexus is 0w20.5w20 Ford/Honda specifications) . The oil happens to be Mobil One 0w20 to 5w20.

Most Honda folks think you "fall off the face of the earth" so to speak, at anything over 5,000 miles OCI's (with attending filter change). So why would folks want to buy a Premium priced oil , your example Redline, with normally a premium priced oil FILTER and change it at these intervals?

I can tell you from personal experience, jet engine specifications are NOTHING like those for car engines.

coldcranker

ruking1, I used to be a Mobil 1 fan until finding out Mobil 1 doesn't even pass Sequence IVA (part of GF-4 spec), even though they claim to pass GF-4 spec tests, so I'm dead set against Exxon-Mobil. They haven't answered and recertified their oil even after having letters and a mountain of evidence made public by Valvoline and Castrol. Exxon-Mobil must not be able to afford excellence and/or lawyers with their mere $25 billion in profits last year, as they have been silent beyond reason.

Anyway, Mobil 1 can't retain the integrity of its ZDDP anti-wear additive as well as Valvoline and Castrol, so Mobil 1 fails long-term wear rate tests (long OCI's not good with that oil). I have seen a big list of data on Mobil 1 user's oil analysis (UOA) on about a 100 vehicles and their is more corroborating evidence Mobil 1 causes too much iron (Fe) wear compared to other synthetics. It should be said there is a possiblity Mobil 1 Extended Performance might hold up better than regular Mobil 1, although you wouldn't expect ZDDP retention to be any better.

Therefore, we are left with looking at Polyol Ester (Redline), hoping to get a more long-lasting, durable base stock, maybe subject to less oxidation over time/heat cycles. Indeed PAO might be good enough to easily go 20,000 miles, assuming the ZDDP holds up, and TBN stays high enough to keep acids away. I don't have wear rate data on Polyol Ester vs. PAO formulations done by indepedent labs, so there is no way of really knowing. (Anybody have that?)

Maybe the only thing to do is go with Castrol Edge or Valvoline Synpower which have great additive packages in a PAO-based oil, and go 1-year oil changes using a Microgreen to help us along.

I do think long oil change intervals (1-year) are the way to go. It is nice to have a Microgreen oil filter out there to take out the very small grit in the oil (down below 4 microns or so) to get the oil to last longer and keep lower wear rates.

ruking1

As you probably know those companies have argued/clashed about the PAO's hydrocracked and synthetic base and the "synthetic issue" for a number of years. Mobil indeed lost that arbitration a few years back. So indeed your argument/s do/ does not follow in the real world. Indeed this might be Castrols effort to actually get into the PAO IV and above product segment as Mobil has been in for at least 30 years that I know of. So even if you beat em, join em anyway?

So while I do not agree with you on the selection of Castrol over Mobil One and more importantly, neither do UOA's , this can be an agree to disagree issue. Again I would switch in a heartbeat should the sequence IVA tests be critical in reducing wear as demonstrated in the UOA's. Or even the vanilla UOA's indicate better than Mobil One products.

I did happen see Castrol Edge 10w30 at the local WalMart @ 36 (?) per 5 qt container. Mobil One's products are @ 21 to 24,... has it by 50%. The truth is I haven't used 10w30 in at least 22 years. (wrong specifications) and aka many miles ago, app 850,000 miles. So if Castrol wants to use any of mine as test mules, I am indeed open.

So for me, I just want to see the VOA's and more importantly UOA's of this stuff in 7 product specifications:

1. 0w20
2. 5w20
3. 5w40 Delvac One, ESP, Mobil One TDT, Truck & SUV
4. 0w30
5. 5w30
6. 5w30, VW 507.00,
7. 0w40 (euro cars)

with 30,000 to 40,000 miles OCI's. So if I am to take Castrol literally with 8x better wear than Mobil One, am I really talking 8 x 25,000 miles? (200,000)

Like Castrol products in the above 6 specifications are DISMAL compared to (like specification) Mobil One products. So hopefully Castrol will reverse their (almost full product ) down ward spiral with this new EDGE product in the above specification product/s.

In fact the only case of massive sludging I have had (1985 Toyota Camry) was with an exclusive full diet of a Castrol product and with 2k to 3k OCI's and oil filter change !!!!

coldcranker

ruking1 said "As you probably know those companies have argued/clashed about the PAO's hydrocracked and synthetic base and the "synthetic issue" for a number of years. Mobil indeed lost that arbitration a few years back. So indeed your argument/s do/ does not follow in the real world. Indeed "

I have never discussed that issue. Read my post again. I'm asking about the differences between PAO vs. Polyol Ester based synthetics. You have suddenly begun talking about PAO vs. conventional, and I never asked about that, although you attribute something (?) to me.

You might be confusing what I said about Mobil 1 failing the Sequence IVA (part of GF-4 tests) with old issues you remember. This Seq IVA failure happened last year, and has nothing to do with "hydrocracked vs. PAO" issue you have started writing about. Thats old news; about 8 years old I think.

Maybe a little education is helpful:
--- There are 2 Kinds of Synthetic Oil in the World: 1. PAO, 2. Polyol Ester; all else is conventional dino oil.
That might be where the confusion is. Hope that clears it up.

coldcranker

ruking1 said "with 30,000 to 40,000 miles OCI's. So if I am to take Castrol literally with 8x better wear than Mobil One, am I really talking 8 x 25,000 miles? (200,000) "

Look up the Sequence IVA test to find out whats happening. Mobil 1 failed that test. It is part of GF-4. Plain and simple. In Sequence IVA, a long test is run on engines, and the cam lobe is measured to see how much the cam lobe shrank from wear. For example, Mobil 1 had x microns linear dimensional loss, and Castrol Edge had x/8 microns loss. This wear test has corollaries in ring wear, cylinder wear, piston pin wear, and partial-hydrodynamic and zero-hydrodynamic metal-to-metal wear (start-up wear, lugging at low RPM). .....The real world, in other words.

It may help you understand to see that ZDDP retention in the oil keeps the cam lobes from wearing out as fast. With Mobil 1, degradation in ZDDP occurs much faster.

ruking1

Indeed UOA's by definition would be "old news". (DOES the stuff actually DO what the miracle of marketing SEZ...????)

So in that sense, since you are using Castrol Edge, I will start to look at wwwbobstheoilguy.com for those Castrol Edge UOA's.

Indeed I am trying to encompass the "miracle" of marketing with the actual real world measurements !!! Yeah I would agree: not sexy and pretty boring. In addition I really still don't get that " think with your dipstick" Irish accent marketing!?

Well lets see the latest Mobil One 5w30 VW 507.00 ESP seems to be head and shoulders better than the Castrol 5w30 VW 507.00 !? This is in the more critical FE measurement and etc. . Castrol won't commit to anything over 10,000 mile OCI's, and the Mobil One seems to be good to 30,000 miles. Maybe they know something !? This is the current 2009 TDI, and current specifications VW 507.00.

So for example here is the 2009 "news"

VOA (virgin oil analysis)

Castrol SLX Professional LL03 5w30 VW 507.00

PPM
00 Copper
01 Iron
oo Chromium
06 Aluminum
01 Lead
01 Moly
890 Phosphorus
994 Zinc
17 Magnesium
1696 Calcium
00 Sodium
07 Potasium
02 Silicon

11.74 cst vis

link title

The nexus is the 2009 VW TDI is VOIDED as soon as say Castrol Edge 5w30 is used !!

But here is a spread sheet comparo: (Castrol Edge) 5w30

link title

Absolutely NOTHING to indicate 8x better wear than Mobil One, ergo back to what I was saying about UOA's. Indeed nothing to even justify a 50% premium in price.

tamu2002

Interesting. Just to sleep better, I actually jacked the van again and drained some oil out to above the half full mark. The manufacturers really should do a better job at making sure their manuals are accurate!

ruking1

Well the best and ideal are the full marks.

While you hear the oems warn of catastrophic danger either way, depending on the crankcase volume, up to a qt over fill will not hurt anything.

tamu2002

I'm quite positive that you're right, 'cause the manufacturer must build in some safety cushion in their specs. But my paranoia wouldn't let go.

ruking1

Well from that point of view "....my paranoia wouldn't let go.", no harm no foul there. Call it your Saint Patties Day lucky procedure!

I never let it get to more than a qt low/ less than ADD !!

If anything( for a host of reasons) I do top to the FULL line and if it is slightly higher than a full (but less than a full qt higher), hey, close enough for Government work.

So for example I have one that has a 6.5 qt (with filter) crankcase. When I change it at 15,000 miles OCI's (not very often as it has 72,000 miles, the 5th oil and filter change is due @ 75,000 miles) I will put in a full 7 qts. This is a more high performance engine and it consumes app 1 qt per 5,000 miles.

coldcranker

Please stay on topic. Synthetic Oil here. There are other threads to talk about oil level. People read here for synthetic oil.

Now, if you have info about PAO vs. Polyol Ester based synthetic oils, then please do post here. OR, if you know something unique or semi-unique about synthetic oil, then post here. Otherwise, we don't want to hear about your grandma's engine oil level. Thank you.

ruking1

Little snippy are we? Or was that Edge y? :surprise:

Even Castrol doesn't cover it, if their marketing "think with your dipstick, Jimmy " is any metric; ergo the Saint Paddies Day reference.

What next, plaid cover alls?

link title

On a more serious side, we can get into why the 100 hour test is almost TOTALLY misleading in view of today's modern synthetics, oil specifications and bypass and lower micro filtration filters such as the eco that you use. On Castrol's OWN Edge web site, it admits to only an unknown percentage of PAO's. They do not even specify the PAO's you are referring and/or PAO IV and above. It further draws on the "FEARS" of so called EXTENDED oil drain intervals which they say is 15,000 miles while Mobil One does not even belly to the bar on this " extended issue". Funny the Corvettes (Z06 in particular) with " OLD" Mobil One 5w30, circa 2000, had 15,000 mile/1 year OCI recommendations "non extended" @ least 9 years ago !? Indeed for a lot of years and a lot of miles I see 15,000 miles OCI's as a low "NORMAL". I run 15,000, 20,000, 25,000 mile OCI'sonly because I am a belt and suspenders kind of guy! I would agree with a 30,000 miles OCI as.... starting to approach EXTENDED.

coldcranker

Not snippy, I just want to be fair to any readers who come here. Don't waste people's time. If we talk about non-synthetic issues in a synthetic thread, there are obvious problems. I'm sorry you think non-synthetic issues should be discussed in a synthetic thread. However, its the way the world works.

I don't use Castrol Edge, and I don't use MicroGreen oil filters as you have told me I do. You seem to know more about what I use than me. Odd.

You also accuse both Valvoline and Castrol of "marketing hype", when they have merely documented and advertised the results of the very valid Seq IVA (part of GF-4) spec compared to Mobil 1. Odd. Exxon-Mobil's lawyers have tried unsuccessfully for many months now to sue and/or counter both Valvoline's and Castrol's claim of Mobil 1's abysmal failure. Do you know something the lawyer's don't? I don't believe you do. If you do, then please tell Exxon-Mobil what to do, as they are completely silent and can't sue anybody or refute anything. They need your help.

ruking1

In advocating staying on topic, (which I was) you are surely OFF topic. Indeed I do not know more about YOU than YOU do. However, I did go by what you said about the eco product, so now I take it you were just repeating the eco marketing, rather than being an actual user. Have you just been going by the Castrol marketing also, and are not a user?

So to me, the sooner I see UOA's on places like www.bobistheoilguy.com, etc., , AND Castrol Edge products on the market actually meeting the specifications I/you /WE need, I can consider them at that (much in the future) time.

Castrol, as you are well aware has any number of products on the markets (non Edge). Way off topic, I love the Castrol LMA DOT 3/4 brake fluid. non syn.

Indeed independent of this Castrol Edge product (5w30,10w30 current availability per their web site), I chose a (non Mobil One) Total Quartz, 5w30, VW 507.00, product (up to 30,000 mile OCI's) over the Castrol SLX Professional LL3 (gold not black bottle) 5w30 VW 507.00 product. link title Not that the Castrol product was not good, but the Total Quartz/ELF product had better and MORE UOA'a. The Mobil One ESP 5w30 VW 507.00 had actually some of the best UOA's.

As an aside the VW 507.00 Mobil One 5w30 ESP has a number of issues.
The good:
1. UOA's though few are among the best
2.is it is CHEAPER than the competing Castrol product.

The bad:
1.it is not currently widely available
2. it is experiencing refinery shortages resulting in wide system logistics back orders.
3. the local Mobil One distributor does not stock nor can not get it.
4. shipping puts it at the same price as Castrol and Total Quartz (even after free shipping)

I also might SWAG and say it (the above Castrol product) probably has a higher % of PAO IV's (to 100%) than the Edge products, but the information is so sketchy, I can NOT verify that. In any case, it is app $2/3 more a quart, which might be a clue.

Also through an interesting set of circumstances, The Total Quartz product comes oem fill, on the MY 2009 VW TDI's, while the dealership's market the (gold bottle) Castrol SLX Professional LL3 5w30 VW 507.00 products in the parts department !!??

Sandman6472

Ditch the attitude ...please! For readers like myself, I find whatever information that comes out of this forum interesting and useful. If you don't like where the discussions lead, skip 'em and read just what you want to. Your choice. This forum is always very user friendly so your little hissy fit is most unwelcome and unnecessary.

Now to get back on topic, I'm going to my Honda store this week for my 3rd oil change with my Civic hitting 20k miles tomorrow. I've been averaging less than 7k per year so is synthetic oil really worth the extra cost for my situation? I'm 90% city driving with work being just under 10 miles on a straight boulevard with probably 25 stop lights. And will my oil life minder know the difference between synthetic blend, which is popular now, and regular Honda synthetic?

Ruking and Shipo please advise when y'all get a chance. looking at Friday for the oil & filter swap. Much thanks...and sorry for my rant earlier. I just really enjoy the info in here no matter where it leads!

The Southern Sandman :shades:

ruking1

@ 7,000 miles or less OCI's per year, the conventional 5w20 specified (Honda/Ford specifications- FORD being the more stringent) oil/s is/are more than up to the task. The 5w20 specification is indeed ROBUST. Indeed Honda Civic owners manuals, shop and web technical data recommend 10,000 miles OCI's. Do I think the synthetic is worth the extra money? NO !! Can you make it WORTH the extra money? Can do easy!! Extend the OCI!? This however is something you may not want to do. If not.. NO! If yes.... qualified yes. One of the reasons the Civic is one of the premier economy cars is you can run conventional (specified 5w20) oil. I know this is not popular, but again I would not hesitate to go with the Honda Civic's owners manual, etc. recommendation of 20,000 miles, oil FILTER changes. We ran the 2004 Civic's CONVENTIONAL oem fill to app 10,000 miles. Since 10,000 miles it has been on either 5w20, 0w20 Mobil One.

The useful oil life reminder ( aka OLM ) computer is calibrated for the recommended conventional oil (usually 5-7 TBN . It will not calculate for the synthetics normally greater TBN. (12 TBN for the Mobil One for example)

shipo

First off, no, your oil life monitor (OLM) will not know the difference between conventional oil and synthetic. FWIW, as a general statement, OLMs simply look at various metrics (like how much fuel consumed, how many cold-starts, and duration of operations while the oil is up to temperature), however, they in no way look at the condition of the oil itself.

Given your driving environment and the OCI that it sounds like you're using, I'm thinking that synthetic oil may well pay dividends down the road. My analysis is as follows:

Oil Change Interval: 6,666 miles or about 1 year
Driving environment: Heavy emphasis on short duration urban driving (i.e. hard on oil)
Typical recommendations from vehicle manufacturers for a combination of the above two conditions: Oil changes should be performed every 5,000 miles or every 6 months, which ever comes sooner.

While such generic recommendations are kind of a catch-all, and while only Used Oil Analysis (UOA) can accurately predict how long conventional oil will last in your driving environment, I can tell you this, I would never run conventional oil for as long as you are if I drove in your driving environment. That said, I'm thinking that synthetic oil would be good to go for an easy year in your car.

Best regards,
Shipo

shipo

Two opposite answers to your question. Which one is correct? Only by reading a UOA will you actually know.

Best regards,
Shipo

ruking1

I inadvertently left out a market link for the Total Quartz/ELF 5w30 VW 507.00 link title I understand it is a French product!?

They do use the terminology extended. This refers to up to 30,000 miles OCI's.

Sandman6472

That's what I'm leaning towards actually, since as you say my driving style is only about 20 miles per day. The gauge in the car shows the engine warming up within 5 minutes of driving but I suppose driving the car for at least 30 to 40 minutes at a time would be optimal for conventional oil. Right now the OLM shows 30% so I think I'll try the synthetic and see how it goes. I really want this car to last well into my retirement, would like it to last until the 2013 or 2014 model year.

The Sandman :shades:

ruking1

With the mileage and time frame horizon (55-60k miles total and 5 more years) either way will work. As you probably know by my past posts, I have taken the "over kill path" All the best and let us know what you decide.

ruking1

IF I were to switch to a conventional oil, ExxonMobil Superflo 5w20 would be one of my top choices. Bang for the buck, doesn't get much better? @ $.65 cents per qt? (if I remember correctly) Mobil One 5w20 is like 4.20 per qt. (so who is the dummy here? :lemon: )

Here is another reason why I would recommend a good 5w20 conventional oil for your application. It also would NOT be for the reasons you might think.

So If folks eyes glaze over, well at least THEY made the decision to ignore the information, and NOT.... not that they didn't GET the information.

SAE publication @ $12.00-15.00. (I have NO ties to the SAE organization nor to the cited website)

The Effect of Engine Oil Drain Interval on Valvetrain Friction and Wear
Document Number: 2007-01-4133

Date Published: October 2007

Author(s):
A. K. Gangopadhyay - Ford Motor Co.
R. O. Carter III - Ford Motor Co.
D. Uy - Ford Motor Co.
S. J. Simko - Ford Motor Co.
M. Riley - Ford Motor Co.
C. B. Phillips - ConocoPhillips Co.
H. Gao - ConocoPhillips Co.

ABSTRACT:

..."However, these performance attributes are measured at the end of tests and therefore, do not provide any information on how the properties have changed during the tests. In one of our previous studies it was observed that engine oil samples collected from fleet vehicles after 12,000 mile drain interval showed 10-15% lower friction and more importantly, an order of magnitude lower wear rate than those of fresh oils.

...As in the previous study, the results showed that the aged engine oils provide lower friction and much improved wear protection capability. These improvements were observed as early as the 3,000 mile drain interval and continued to the 15,000 mile drain interval. "...

">link titlehttp://www.digitalcar.org/technical/papers/2007-01-4133

So in effect, "FRESH" oils actually AIDS in MORE AGGRESSIVE WEAR !!!!!!

It is bad enough there is a utility to changing to fresh oil. So IF one does the consistent FRESH OIL CHANGES, i.e., 3,000 to 5,000 miles OCI as recommended by the quicky lubes and MANY Honda DEALERSHIPS, INDEPENDENTS,AND conventional wisdom: THEN the aggressive wear is actually a minimium of 2x GREATER !!!??

Also, the conclusions are almost inescapeable, albeit almost controversial to universally ignored. So for example using my 20,000 miles Mobil One 0w20, 5w20 OCI's and 20,000 miles oil FILTER vs the /3,000/ 5,000 miles OCI's, the aggressive WEAR is actually a min of 4x greater (to more like almost 7x GREATER) !!!!!???

tamu2002

Since I used Mobile 1 5w30 synthetic, I guess I wasn't completely off topic in talking about levels .

Sandman,

I use Castol 5w20 conventional in my Accord, the same oil recommended for your Civic. I only have 30K miles so far and it takes the Minder ~7K miles to reach 15%, which has been my OCI. My commute is 13 miles one way, mostly highway. I did a UOA of the first factory oil with stellar results (changed at ~6300 miles). I posted the analysis on the Accord board 2 years ago. I can try and dig it up if you're interested. However, the Honda factory filled oil is specially formulated and likely does not represent the Castrol 5w20 I'm using now.

Sandman6472

My minder says 30% and I just hit 20k miles this morning on the way to work. Was planning to get the oil changes on Friday morning at my local dealer but I'm thinking maybe I should wait till I get to 15%. Is this logical or should I just get 'er done now. Still toying with the idea of swapping the synthetic blend for synthetic. Shipo thinks I should, but Ruking thinks I'm fine with the synthetic blend. As stated earlier, I only drive about 20 miles a day to work on a 6 lane city street with about 25 stop lights which takes about 18 minutes at 6 a m but about 25 minutes coming home at 4 p m. I really hate to waste the $ if the synthetic blend will do the same job as the regular synthetic as my oil minder doesn't know the difference in oil product anyways. I want to protect my engine 1st off but I've always used regular dino and now synthetic blend on all my cars with never any oil issues that I'm aware of.

This had led to my confusion ans I have 1 vote for each side now from the experts in this forum. Maybe you could weigh in also about which choice will be best for my Civic. This car I plan to keep for at least another 5 or so years, G-d willing. :confuse:

The :confuse: Sandman :shades:

tamu2002

If were you, I'd simply use the concentional Castrol or something and change it when the minder is at 20 or 30%, or every 6 or 8 months. That's close to what Honda recommends, it should be good enough. I've come to trust Honda's word more since I did that initial UOA. Honda says in the manual to leave the factory oil in there longer to help break-in, sure enough the oil was still good with a lot of life left after 6K miles.

Since you drive so few miles, there's no point going synthetic IMHO.

richardson

IF I were to switch to a conventional oil, ExxonMobil Superflo 5w20 would be one of my top choices. Bang for the buck, doesn't get much better? $.65 cents per qt? (if I remember correctly) Mobil One 5w20 is like 4.20 per qt. (so who is the dummy here?
Ruking1, Where can I buy XOM superflo 5w20 for .65 a qt? I have trouble finding any oil for 2.00 a qt.

ruking1

I think then in all fairness Mobil One is @ 6.27-6.50 per quart, the last I saw at WalMart. I am guessing this is the part in the endless oil prices cycle, where the refiner is scheduled to make some money with lower per barrel costs.

coldcranker

For those of you following the wear tests wars, given the opening salvos from Valvoline Synpower and Castrol Edge against the silent Mobil 1 people, there is some more exciting news: Lube News article link click here

and Quaker State Asks for a Showdown Synthetic Oil Challenge

Should be interesting how this shapes up, since the Sequence IVA test runs an engine for many hours and measures how much cam lobe metal has been lost due to wear. A good synthetic should minimize that wear.

ruking1

..."since the Sequence IVA test runs an engine for many hours and measures how much cam lobe metal has been lost due to wear"...

Those "many" hours @ 40-50 mph really only amount to a/an 3000-4000 miles oil change !! Again, another reason to change oil less often. Being as how I normally run 15,000 to 25,000 miles, that is only 26% to 12% of the useful oil life for me. normally I would be more interested in the 3000 to 25,000 miles portions.

Indeed it is well known to Castrol (others also,-see previous post) the faster wear is/has been WITH new oil. So if Castrol is recommending frequent oil changes; defacto: it intimately knows about faster wear!!?? Indeed it has for literally decades if not generations been FOR FASTER wear. (defacto, as a result of recommending frequent oil changes) As a result, the marketing scenario is HOLLOW.

Further it is good that Castrol, QS and Pennsoil, etc. are getting into current technologies !!! The 0w20/5w20 Ford/Honda specifications really upped the standards !!!! ALL other of those vendors' past products were known sludge enablers !!! So for example it will take me personally about 10 years of good results to reverse witness to app 53 years of crappy performance. (I started very young looking at innards of engines)

UOA's (real world users like YOU and people who actually use oil) show Castrol products to be good performers, but Mobil One products consistently show the LEAST wear and LONGEST durability. Perhaps Castrol's Edge product will be the one lone competitor to rejuvenate Castrol's line (BP owns Castrol) . My take is competition is good !!! However the price is WAY out of line.

Being as how Castrol Edge has a GM 4178 M product (Corvette engines) which has a oem recommendation of 15,000 miles, I think you really need to rethink the term "extended" oil change. As you can see in the above case, 15,000 miles is the "normal" OCI.

coldcranker

Valvoline has accused, in formal letters to Exxon-Mobil and the public, of Mobil 1 5w-30 failing the GF-4's Seq. IVA test, with no response from the Mobil people. Now Quaker State is throwing down the gauntlet and challenging everybody to a cam-lobe wear test (Seq. IVA). To pass that test, your cam can't wear down more than 90 microns. Thats just to pass. All these synthetic oils, with new tech, etc., should be able to do much better there (except for Mobil 1). Castrol had also jumped in and compared their oil with Mobil 1 on the Seq. IVA cam-lobe wear test.

I disagree with your assertion that Mobil 1 has always done well in UOA (user oil analysis), as bobistheoilguy.com forums has seen a lot of people complain about excessive iron (Fe) wear using Mobil 1 for a long time. At one point recently, I saw a list somebody had of about 100 or so UOA results showing the Fe wear figure, and Mobil 1 tended to have the worst wear of any of the oils there, including conventional oils on the list. (There are so many variables in any one UOA, but if you have a lot of them, across many cars, and you see Mobil 1 almost always having excessive wear, then that is probably a trend result.)

As a mechanical engineer myself, I can tell you the Sequence IVA is a real test that measures real metal loss on a real cam lobe. It is an indicator of wear performance in semi-hydrodynamic and fully non-hydrodynamic points inside an engine, such as occurs during engine-startup, engine lugging, on cam lobes and rings, and on journal bearings in transient conditions.

Your argument about how many miles a Sequence IVA test represents doesn't make sense, since an oil that fails that test means it will just get worse the longer you leave the failed oil in there. Indeed, the wear charts I've seen has shown Mobil 1 can't retain its ZDDP long enough to prevent high wear rates over any period of time as the oil ages. An oil that hangs in there (with active ZDDP) will keep wear down better over a long period of time.

ruking1

I take it you disagree with the SAE published results (my past post and link) of the utility of "longer OCI's!!?? Actually most people practice exactly what is the worst for an engine. So I am TOTALLY ok with that. After all it is YOUR's and their nickels. I also realize folks that use synthetic oils are a minority within a minority. Mobil One just happens to be one of the "mass marketed" PAO IV''s ((i.e., get your jugs are WalMart) . There are a dizzling array of "boutique" synthetic oil choices.

I am not sure how you read the results, but your marketing take is NOT how I read them. But YOU were the one that stated (that I think) Mobil One ALWAYS is better, ...clearly, I did NOT say that. But YOU clearly did. For the record you are incorrect. But I am perfectly fine with how YOU chose to read it for YOU. Again the reason for UOA's is to see on a more technical basis, if the real world lives up to the marketing hype (anybody's).

Again, I just went through selection process for a VW 507.00 specification oil. The Castrol product was even given marketing support by VWA. In the UOA department (for my .02 cents where the rubber meets the road so to speak) the Castrol product VW 507.00 was bested by Total Quartz and Mobil One product.(among others actually) I chose the Total Quartz because of lack of availability of the Mobil One product. I am also awaiting more UOA's. As you probably are aware Castrol 507.00 is sold at VW parts counters and other specialty vendors (gold bottle), but the oem factory fill 2009 MY TDI is actually Total Quartz VW 507.00. Marketing, as you probably gathered is probably more important than we think.

Being as how you probably belong to a professional organization like SAE, perhaps you should publish a "marketing wars" experiment!!?? I look forward to your published results.

But so other folks do not fret, one does not have to be a mechanic engineer to make the best oil selections (for the levels they wish to plug into).