here is the link again to the page with podcast. Hour 2 and hour 3.
The debate sounded like synthetics are better. More cars will require synthetics in the future. Blends are gaining the characteristics and benefits of synthetics more and more for many people's needs.
They did decide for some people who are changing regularly with short trips will be better off with regular oil and just change regularly for short trip, low total mileage driving.
An interesting caller in first hour said he had synthetic oil break down on him and cause very low oil pressure. It was cured with using regular oil. That flies in the face of what I've learned here from our capable posters. When Fran Lockwood was asked about that caller's experiences, I recall she stumbled and didn't know what to make of his anecdotal report.
Lockwood is senior VP research and development and is located in Lexington KY. It sounded like she was traveling as she talked on the phone for the interview.
In addition, VERY few oems have truly embraced so called " new to newer" 10,000 to 15,000 miles OCI's. Off the cuff, some examples are: 1. VW Jetta TDI 10,000 2. Honda Civic 10,000 3. Chevrolet Corvette 15,000 miles, OCI's. Noteworthy might be the Civic's 10,000 mile OCI, with conventional oil with the very robust 5w20 Honda & Ford specifications- Ford having the more stringent specifications.
As a consequence, most folks cling to the OLD school, 3,000 to 5,000 miles OCI's.
They also talked about oil change intervals and synthetic. Lockwood commented that she wouldn't be buying the car of the man who bragged to her he'd gone 40,000 miles without an oil change. She also commented similarly about another high oil change interval--I don't recall if that was synthetic in use or regular oil.
What really didn't get discussed was the differences in synthetics. I'm still confused about the various synthetics and their level of quality to the ordinary user like myself with maybe 4 month OCI at 5000 miles now (I'm slowly converting to longer OCI except in winter with lots of short trips here in cold Ohio).
There are literally huge banks of information, if being/having a repository of information is important.
That is one reason why I tend to stay with the Mobil One product line. They seem to really do a really good job ACROSS the product/s and viscosity/s line/s. One thing I like is they are among the few mass available PAO Group IV base stocks. Is Mobil One THE best in ALL the products/viscosities? Absolutely, positively NOT.
They are however for my .02cents, ONE of the best in the products and viscosities that I use or have interest in. They are certainly more cost effective than THE best in a particular product or viscosity. By then, you will have researched this to the Nth degree.
So the upshot if one choses to do 4mo/5000 miles OCI's, one is FAR better off in many ways, using a good quality conventional oil.
So to get you started on some higher priced "boutique" (if you will) synthetics, no particular order or endorsements 1. Redline (esters basestocks) 2. AMSOIL 3. Royal Purple 4. Neo 5. Total Quartz INEO 6. Motul 7. Castrol EDGE
Here is a " Readers Digest" type, JD Powers take link title
If you do a European google, it will be plain to see this small list doesn't even BEGIN to scratch the surface.
If more oems will require synthetics in the future, I would look to the following being the "go to" viscosities 0w20, 5w20, 0w30, 5w30. 0w40, 5w40 is still the best for diesel but due to everchanging standards for the 50 state diesel to try to limit the population, 5w30 is starting to be the writing on the wall.
Do you recall, say 20-25 years ago, that some synthetics were touted as being "agricultural" in origin. I seem to recall some articles about certain crops being harvested and used for the extraction of organic fractions (probably diesters?) for base line molecular building blocks in the synthesis of the lubricants. One such product was sold by mail out of Florida. :shades:
For conversational purposes, a lot of the so called lubrication technology advances are on the 50 state diesel side of the market. ULSD signalled and in effect allowed new so called low saps oil products (sulfated ash (SA), phospherous P, ergo low SAP's)
Suffice to say a Prius (type) could not use low saps technology because refining standards and law allow for 90 ppm sulfur to 30 ppm. On the other hand ULSD by refining standards and law have to be 15ppm and is normally 5 ppm sulfur. So in effect RUG to PUG can be up to 18 x dirtier than D2.
The upshot: OCI's can easily be designed for 30,000 miles (and ARE) in the case of low saps standards VW 507.00. Even the oems, both cars and oil vendors understand that most in the US market are not ready (mentally which dictates operatively) for 30,000 miles OCI's. Indeed 10,000 miles OCI's can be a stretch to most.
How on track you are in your last sentence. At this time, I am in the process of using up my petroleum based motor oil (read: many cases yet to go) that I purchased under deep rebates at mostly one dollar per quart. Those prices, which went on for several years, are now at an end in this geographic zone, probably to never return. I spent many years using synthetics, and now I am getting back to synthetics again. I am shooting for 10K miles as a tolerable OCI for my Ford Escape and my Triumph Rocket III motorcycle. My three other vehicles will get synthetics later. I desire to use up my bargain petrolube first.
I am in the same boat with Civic oil (ExxonMobil Super FLO 5w20 @ .65 per qt?) I actually have used it to top my Mobil One 0w20 or 5w20, when I am on the down side of the OCI (10,000 to 20,000) However, since the Civic in 90,000 miles uses very little top up oil, I am still on my first qt of 13 ! So I have 5 oil changes or 50,000 miles on the shelf.
I just discovered that a local sale next week will offer consumers "Q" synthetic in quart containers for $4. I am considering that "Q" by Quaker State may be rivaling Mobil "1" qualitatively. I buy M1 at Walmart for $22 per 5 qt jug. I see M1 selling for over $7 per qt at chain auto parts stores. Do you happen to have any info on a comparison of the two products?
No, but it is interesting that Mobil One is selling for app 7 per quart and is 4.40 at WalMart (everyday) It would be interesting to see what "Q" sells for likewise. My guess is M1 @ WM is THE ticket.
This might be too far up the food change for discussion purposes. However Lubrizol company that refines/manufactures the additive packages. Passenger Car Engine Oils
Folks have mentioned that synthetic oil is the best...my question is if you prefer the regular or dino motor oil, and you criticized that folks keep it in the engine for 3 to 5k miles, How long should the OCI be?? 5K to 8K or more?? Please explain.
This is only in the context of what I perceive you asking.
This is a repeat, but (for example) the OEM Honda recommends 10,000 miles OCI's. 5w20 CONVENTIONAL (aka regular, dino) oil for the CIVIC. It also recommends 20,000 miles oil FILTER changes. You can easily run/compare/contrast cost per mile lubricated to see what combination/s makes sense to you.
So to even out the cost of the OEM recommended intervals (using every other oil change: to change filter) :
1. Conventional oil @ 2.50 per qt x 2.5 qt x 2 intervals+ 5.00 oil filter + .50 x2 crush washer filter= $18.50/20,000 miles= .000925 cents per mile lubricated.
(add labor and disposal costs if you use CPO/F to the dealer x 2 intervals)
2. Synthetic oil @ 4.40 per qt x 2.5 qt x 1 interval of 20,000 miles +5.00 oil filter + .50 crush washer= $16.50/20,000 miles=.000825 cents per mile lubricated or conventional oil is 12% more costly. (add labor and disposal costs if you use CPO/F to the dealer)
Two other scenario's are like you say; 3,000 and 5,000 miles oil and filter change intervals (OCI's). You can run the cost per mile lubricated.
(However a quick and dirty indicates a cost of 3.33 times to 2 times more costly).
( if you are not a DIY'er, you can insert your local cost per OCI, IF you like to bring customer provided oil to the dealers, you can add labor and disposal costs)
As you can see the cost/s and the percentage difference/s can be ALL over the place and staggering !!!!???
If it is not clear why I would for example chose synthetic oil @ 20,000 miles intervals, let me know.
You know you can use the quantity that is correct for your application !!?? Actually I think the actual is 2.4 qts. I used 2.5 qts to get in the ball park. I don't really store the information in my memory as I do this car app every 1.43 years. If it is important to you, I can get the actual information. Most cars as you know use a certain amount extra to "top off" This one uses app .25 to .5 qt per 20,000 miles. So it is a toss up to top off or wait till it needs changing.
"C'mon really "staggering"? "
Would you pay 12% more for a Honda Civic than say the going rate?
You are not afraid to do the math?
I just called my local Honda dealer. They want $40 to do the oil change. $30 with the coupon special. That is 3000 miles @.01/ 5000 miles @.006 cents per mile lubricated vs the synthetic @.000825 per mile lubricated in a prior post. The dealer's per mile lubricated is between 11 to 6.27 TIMES more costly.
I really have nothing against you paying 11 to 6.27 times more for essentially the same product/service (per mile lubricated)
I don't look at the cost when I use "synthetic oil". Most oil except mineral oil can be called synthetic. My big cost was the price I paid for my car or truck.
I use Amsoil because I haven't found any oil in over 30 years that is much better. I use it for the convince, wear protection, improved performance and fuel economy, low volatility, oxidation stability, high temperature/high shear, high TBN, hot and cold engine performance, it's a PAO synthetic, and it exceeds the most stringent performance specifications of all major U.S. and foreign automotive and truck manufacturers.
With Amsoil I also have a choice of many differint lubricants to meet my needs. It was the world’s first API rated synthetic motor oil. They specialize exclusively in synthetic lubricant technology
I have always gotten 15,000 to 25,000 miles (one year) on an oil change. and double the life on my ATF. I always send a sample for analysis at every oil change so that I know how the oil and engine are performing.
I would not criticize anyone for not using a synthetic. I do have a problem with other oils in finding there data to make a good comparison. Why are they hiding their data? All oil companies have to perform the same standard tests to show they meet the minimum requirements.
I did not think any car took such a small amount of oil. I guess you would really lose out on the typical set price that many places give for oil changes.
As for the percentage difference, 12% of $20 is a bit less significant than 12% of $20,000.
My math is simple, it costs pretty much right around 2 times as much for me to pay someone to change my oil with synthetic as it does with conventional. Synthetic needs to be changed about 1/2 as often, so the cost is about the same either way.
(btw, I had misread your post...I thought you had come up with conventional being 12% cheaper)
..."As for the percentage difference, 12% of $20 is a bit less significant than 12% of $20,000. "...
The above quote might be one of the reasons why most of America does not see the forest for the trees. Now multiply that by 255.7 M vehicles; consuming 6.7 times more oil is using LESS oil ???!!!! It is also the operative view for example that says that 22 mpg is better than 50 mpg. :lemon: :shades:
I think many Americans change their oil far more frequently than necessary, whether it is conventional or synthetic. But, even with that, the amount of oil used for lubrication is a tree compared to the forest of it used for fuel.
Even with a more normal sized crankcase, say 5 quarts, changing oil even every 3000 miles in a vehicle with high mpg, say 30, you would be using 1.25 gallons for lubrication but 100 gallons for fuel in 3000 miles.
3000 miles divided by 101.25 gallons is 29.63 mpg (including lubrication). Going to 5000 miles would change that to 5000 divided by 167.92, which is 29.78 mpg...that is a 0.5% difference. Going to 10,000 mile OCI, results in 29.89 mpg (including lubrication) a 0.9% change from the 3000 mile OCI case and less than 0.4% improvement from the 5000 mile OCI.
I don't doubt that you know the base stock of Amsoil, but none-the-less I recall that in the "early days of Amsoil" it was a diester base. When was it changed? :confuse:
I'm sorry I did'nt make myself clear. My question is: If I prefer to use regular motor oil, how many miles should I change it? The manual says 3,750 miles and the dealer endorses this ('02 Accord). I've read you mention that 3k to 5k OCI is not good for the engine. Bear in mind my intention is to prolong the engine, I'm not concerned about the cost per miles of lubrication. I'm also aware that the best lubricant is Synthectic motor oil but at this point I have to use regular motor oil since I have them in stock. :P
Actually I did give several answers. If you are not going to provide specific data, then it is up to you to pick and chose the correct answers to the specific data you are not providing.
First off, given specific data of that 3,750 miles interval, it is probably the "severe" interval. If so, follow the "normal" interval (tell me if it is 7,500 miles) . So for example on a 04 Civic, the severe interval is 5,000 miles, the normal interval is 10,000 miles.
Secondly, 0 to 3,000 miles (aka, new oil) presents the engine oxymoronically with the most aggressive wear patterns. This is simple to check out/verify. All you have to do is run a series of UOA's, and evaluate the total wear metals per 1000 miles. However, I have already in a past post cited a study that already does that. (why reinvent the wheel...?, so to speak)
"Bear in mind my intention is to prolong the engine".
So using your example of the 3,750 miles interval, that means you have app 750 miles or ONLY 20% run at the progressively lesser aggressive wear patterns. This means you have 80% of the mileage run at the most aggressive wear patterns.
Let's use a 100,000 miles requirement as an example. Which has the more wear aggressive miles: 4 OCI's @ 25,000 miles per interval or 27 OCI's @ 3,750 per interval?
OP/ED:
This is truly (my .02 cents) one STRONG reason why I use the synthetic oil @ 20,000 to 25,000 miles. So the progressively to sweet spot LEAST aggressive wear patterns) are @ 85%/88%.
So tell me,.... (percentage wise %) which do you think is...better?
Don't worry, the majority of Americans chose the MOST aggressive wear pattern cycle, defacto by changing oil every 3,000 miles !!!! This is the mileage when/where the wear patterns are THE most aggressive (zero to 3,000 miles) !!!
On the other hand, they declare/think/being told they are prolonging the engine.
So as you have pointed out and I would concur, cost per mile lubricated is really not the most important thing. It is secondarily, just a side benefit.
If I am being unclear, fire away.
Anecdotally, I inspected my camshaft wear on a VW Jetta TDI @ the 100,000 TB/WP interval. With 20,000 to 25,000 miles OCI's and at 100,000 miles, the camshaft still had original oem tool markings !!!!! It has app 75,000 miles till its next 100k TB/WP interval, which will be cumulatively 200,000 miles. I can let you know then the wear patterns of the camshaft.
" I don't doubt that you know the base stock of Amsoil, but none-the-less I recall that in the "early days of Amsoil" it was a diester base. When was it changed? "
Diester base oils are used in Amsoil compressors oils.
"The majority of AMSOIL synthetic lubricants are formulated with polyalphaolefin (PAO) synthetic base stocks. PAO base stocks offer unsurpassed protection and performance and are widely recognized as the industry's premier base stock technology. Unlike conventional base stocks, PAO base stocks contain fully saturated, hydrogenated molecules that are free of wax and impurities, allowing superior performance in temperature extremes, oxidation and acid resistance and clean operation. Synthetic oils formulated with less expensive synthetic base stocks also offer performance benefits over conventional oils, but they cannot match the performance of PAOs for the high standards required for AMSOIL synthetic motor oils."
I want to correct myself. Amsoil compressor oils are now also PAO synthetic base. The majority of their oils are PAO base, but not all are 100%. link title
I don't see how VW TDI (Turbo Direct Injection Diesel) engine wear data relates to a gas engine and where can I find the test and results where "wear is HIGHLY aggressive when oil is new (0 to 3,000 miles)"? :confuse:
It is NOT just with VW TDI engines. So for example, if I read your perception correctly, I would not cross compare TDI results with say 2.0, 1.8 TT results !!! Those cross comparison results, for practical purposes would/might be meaningless. If you were trying to prove a point it would be probably be misleading, to be PC.
It is just that tdi folks are pretty passionate about the subject and go steps (as scientifically as they can) beyond the marketing craft that most oil vendors stop @.
There is a "TDI USED OIL LAB ANALYSIS RESULTS & DISCUSSION" and "TDI UOA DATA BASE" on www.tdiclub.com. You can do a search on that web site or go back to one of my prior posts for the links.
However, I can not see why you would really care. I really only use the site for the general purposes (on this site) of illustrating what I mean as most sites are really not as focused as the TDI'ers. It is not at the 40,000 miles straight and level attitude that Amsoil is KING of the UNIVERSE and all else bow down. It is really more in the trenches.
While I think Amsoil is a top quality oil and there are a few (TDIer's) folks that use it, other specified brands (CJ-4 specification, etc) test better (as measured) than Amsoil, including Shell's Rotella Synthetic, Total Quartz INEO, Mobil One (CJ-4)etc.
Since you have knowledge and access to doing UOA's, it would be simple for you to do a UOA at whatever intervals, up to and including 25,000 miles, i.e., 1000, 2000, 3000, 5000, 7000, 10,000, etc.
Again might I refer you to the SAE study link, I posted in an earlier post.
www.Bobistheoilguy.com is another more general oil topic site. There are a host of Amsoil sponsors that support and post there.
Well lets see first we start with wild assumptions/ accusations and marketing hype, demanding data. Then we get the data and since it might not jive with the wild assumptions/ accusations and marketing,... we go back to the wild assumptions/accusations and marketing hype?. Your choice. So how do you think your msg #8207 applies to what I have said? On the other hand it is an assumption that oils with more than 3,000 to 5,000 miles are "bad" and need changing. This of course as you might agree they car dealers, repair facilities, oil vendors) have sold rather well?
So would you say that Exxon Mobil would support your changing oil after every time you use the car? Or have you forgotten the days of OCI's of 1,500 miles to 3,000 miles? (not far from that!?) So from those intervals, ...3,000 miles to 5,000 is a super leap?
Or is that another way of saying 25,000 miles OCI's are just fine also? Again don't forget Mobil 1 is/has been a brand name of ... ExxonMobil. ..."It was introduced in 1974 as a 5w-20 viscosity synthetic motor oil"....1
At the introduction 35 years ago, the company was unambigious in saying OCI's of 25,000 miles? Keep in mind that was when RUG to PUG was DIRTY ?? With that clean up why not then @ least 25,000 miles? Did they dumb it down to match the clean up? :lemon:
I think the truth as always been no matter what you decide (from 1,000 miles OCI's to 30,000 miles OCI's and above....) any vendor hopes you use... their products.
On a practical basis, I am glad I have @ least 2 cars that the oil and filter are designed for 30,000 miles OCI's. Since I am a belt and suspenders kind of guy I normally change @ 25,000 miles !!! :shades:
In all of the Amsoil marketing I have NEVER seen any reference to whether Amsoil refines/manufacturers their own PAO's. My take is since that seems to be better than a state secret, they probably procure it from second party vendors. I would not be surprised if they buy the PAO group IV basestocks from ....ExxonMobil..... :surprise: So from that point of view how can it not be of high quality?
..."But its origins date back much further, to the invention of poly-alphaolefin (PAO) at ExxonMobil's Pausboro,New Jersey Research Laboratories in the late 1940s."...link title
Mobil One on the other hand (obviously) refines/manufactures their own PAO's Group IV. (Mississippi Plant). This should also be no surprise but ExxonMobil is also one the US's BIGGEST hydrocracked oil producer. (Castrol calls their hydrocracked products....synthetic)
Redline is rumored to get their (custome designed,aka spec'ed ) base stocks from HATCO.
how do you think your msg #8207 applies to what I have said?
I wasn't aware of this requirement...that any post had to explain to your satisfaction how it relates to whatever you have previously posted. :P
I posted to point out that your theory that new oil is bad for your engine does not appear to be a settled fact.
I do not change oil excessively frequently, but the idea that new oil somehow causes engine wear makes no logical sense and, therefore, I think there needs to be a pretty high burden of proof for this hypothesis. In addition, it would help to have some sensible explanation as to why this would occur. Finally, if this does occur, before this should become something to worry about, it would need to be determined if the extra wear is even significant...is it equivalent to 500 miles of driving, 5000, or what?
There are logical and sensible explanations as to why old oil becomes "bad" at some point in time. Whether that point is 5000 miles, 10,000, or 30,000 may be in question, but the fact that it should be changed at some point in time is a definite fact.
It is called feedback, as this is a discussion thread?
..."I posted to point out that your theory that new oil is bad for your engine does not appear to be a settled fact. "...
I did not say that new oil is bad for your engine. YOU said that I did. I did say that new oil presents the most aggressive wear patterns. Want proof? All you need do is run UOA's and be honest about the numbers. If I did it, you will have 1,000+ reasons why what I present is tainted. Or... perhaps that is why you changed the subject, as you are afraid the numbers might not fit what you have said in the above quote. Again, reference in a prior post the SAE study that outlines in more technical terms what I have obviously summarized. Specifically they cite that "oil with more miles " is 10-15% less aggressive. The so called sweet spot starting at 3,000 miles to 15,000 miles for test purposes. (and beyond)
..."There are logical and sensible explanations as to why old oil becomes "bad" at some point in time. Whether that point is 5000 miles, 10,000, or 30,000 may be in question, but the fact that it should be changed at some point in time is a definite fact. "...
I am glad you then agree with me. Like I said because I am a belt and suspenders kind of guy, 25,000 miles is when I do.
I am sure you would would further agree with me, that neither YOU nor I am in business of testing synthetic oil, nor make a living doing it.
I am like you, a consumer trying to balance the balances.
In metallurgy, it is a settled fact that heat treatment of steels and aluminum (among many metals) improves the desirable wear characteristics of the metals. The pressure of forging is also useful in improving the strength of metals. Oil is not a metal, but like metal it is a specific "formula" of ingredients. And those individual ingredients in oil are refined using heat and pressure. While it may not yet be a settled fact that additional pressure and/or heat may improve their ability to lubricate (to a point, I agree), it seems quite possible. And now I read that people that are doing UOA's are coming up with data that supports that hypothesis.
I also consider it a settled fact that people who make money producing and selling a product or service, will not spend much money or time finding ways to sell less of it, less often. Let alone in spreading the word about those ways. That's the role of the Forums - to help us find our own way.
Think of the instructions on many shampoo bottles: "Lather. Rinse. Repeat". The people that added that last word know the value of that word to their company's sales figures. The value to their customers' hair? Not so much.
I've been using nothing but synthetic motor oil since 1987. I spend far less time and money keeping my vehicles engines lubricated than I did before; I have never had an engine problem with any of the 11 vehicles I've had during that time; and I create less waste that we all pay to deal with. Now I'm doing 10,000 mile OCI's and still doing fine. This group of settled facts creates some burden of proof for others to deal with. To all those out there who do these UOA's and let us all in on the knowledge they's gained, I say THANKS. Keep it up.
...that I do continue to believe Amsoil was a diester based product back in the late 70's going in to the 80's. It was a significant factor they used to get individuals to sign on as "dealers". :shades: My wife signed up. Later, she let the dealership go when we moved out of the deep South. No complaints, we just moved on to my next duty station. Perhaps someone versed in the History of Am(z,s)oil can give us a nutshell version.
I came into this discusson a bit late, & a bit dumbfounded. Can someone explain to me why new oil is bad for your engine? I'm an old fogy who goes back to the day when poor people used a roll of toilet paper for a "filter." So I thought I heard everything. Besides, I thought you were just supposed to wait for the oil light to come on before you changed the oil! :sick:
Let me get this straight. (1) You drive a VW Jetta & (2) You pull your camshaft out to check wear from fresh oil. I hope you have a very good health insurance policy fella ... cause you need some serious help! :confuse:
Your conception is way off. Yes, it is a VW Jetta TDI. The health insurance policy comment is way off base, as is the comment on serious help.
Upshot: when the valve cover is off and the camshaft is naturally exposed, you can inspect it and do whatever measurements deemed necessary.
The T/B W/P (timing belt & water pump) change is a normal scheduled maintenance item @ 100,000 miles intervals. Pulling the camshaft out is NOT part of that procedure. But however, the camshaft is EXPOSED when the valve cover is removed as a step in the procedure to do the T/B & W/P change. Further as part of another sequence in that over all procedure, the camshaft is rotated.
If you are interested, (not that you would be, given you probably don't have a Jetta TDI) there is a thread on doing the whole procedure on www.tdiclub.com . :shades:
The real point is that the camshaft was inspected by @ least 4 folks. So what I said about the camshaft showing original tool markings on the (high portions) of the lobes is not a guess.
Yes this 03 TDI is run on 20,000 to 25,000 miles OCI's. It currently has 122,000 miles.
Comments
It's archived and downloadable in podcasts for Dale Donovan, Car Talk Show, here
download 2nd hour from 8/22 and 3 hour. They spent more than an hour on the discussion.
Amazing they both mentioned Toyota's sludge problem.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The Sandman :sick: :shades:
2023 Hyundai Kona Limited AWD (wife) / 2025 VW GTI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2020 Hyundai Accent SE (daughter #2) / 2023 Subaru Impreza Base (son)
here is the link again to the page with podcast. Hour 2 and hour 3.
The debate sounded like synthetics are better. More cars will require synthetics in the future. Blends are gaining the characteristics and benefits of synthetics more and more for many people's needs.
They did decide for some people who are changing regularly with short trips will be better off with regular oil and just change regularly for short trip, low total mileage driving.
An interesting caller in first hour said he had synthetic oil break down on him and cause very low oil pressure. It was cured with using regular oil. That flies in the face of what I've learned here from our capable posters. When Fran Lockwood was asked about that caller's experiences, I recall she stumbled and didn't know what to make of his anecdotal report.
Lockwood is senior VP research and development and is located in Lexington KY. It sounded like she was traveling as she talked on the phone for the interview.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
As a consequence, most folks cling to the OLD school, 3,000 to 5,000 miles OCI's.
What really didn't get discussed was the differences in synthetics.
I'm still confused about the various synthetics and their level of quality to the ordinary user like myself with maybe 4 month OCI at 5000 miles now (I'm slowly converting to longer OCI except in winter with lots of short trips here in cold Ohio).
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
That is one reason why I tend to stay with the Mobil One product line. They seem to really do a really good job ACROSS the product/s and viscosity/s line/s. One thing I like is they are among the few mass available PAO Group IV base stocks. Is Mobil One THE best in ALL the products/viscosities? Absolutely, positively NOT.
They are however for my .02cents, ONE of the best in the products and viscosities that I use or have interest in. They are certainly more cost effective than THE best in a particular product or viscosity. By then, you will have researched this to the Nth degree.
So the upshot if one choses to do 4mo/5000 miles OCI's, one is FAR better off in many ways, using a good quality conventional oil.
So to get you started on some higher priced "boutique" (if you will) synthetics, no particular order or endorsements
1. Redline (esters basestocks)
2. AMSOIL
3. Royal Purple
4. Neo
5. Total Quartz INEO
6. Motul
7. Castrol EDGE
Here is a " Readers Digest" type, JD Powers take link title
If you do a European google, it will be plain to see this small list doesn't even BEGIN to scratch the surface.
link title
Why will we have to use new lubricants (Low-SAPS)?
Suffice to say a Prius (type) could not use low saps technology because refining standards and law allow for 90 ppm sulfur to 30 ppm. On the other hand ULSD by refining standards and law have to be 15ppm and is normally 5 ppm sulfur. So in effect RUG to PUG can be up to 18 x dirtier than D2.
The upshot: OCI's can easily be designed for 30,000 miles (and ARE) in the case of low saps standards VW 507.00. Even the oems, both cars and oil vendors understand that most in the US market are not ready (mentally which dictates operatively) for 30,000 miles OCI's. Indeed 10,000 miles OCI's can be a stretch to most.
I am in the same boat with Civic oil (ExxonMobil Super FLO 5w20 @ .65 per qt?) I actually have used it to top my Mobil One 0w20 or 5w20, when I am on the down side of the OCI (10,000 to 20,000) However, since the Civic in 90,000 miles uses very little top up oil, I am still on my first qt of 13 ! So I have 5 oil changes or 50,000 miles on the shelf.
You can do an additive standard site search.
This is a repeat, but (for example) the OEM Honda recommends 10,000 miles OCI's. 5w20 CONVENTIONAL (aka regular, dino) oil for the CIVIC. It also recommends 20,000 miles oil FILTER changes. You can easily run/compare/contrast cost per mile lubricated to see what combination/s makes sense to you.
So to even out the cost of the OEM recommended intervals (using every other oil change: to change filter) :
1. Conventional oil @ 2.50 per qt x 2.5 qt x 2 intervals+ 5.00 oil filter + .50 x2 crush washer filter= $18.50/20,000 miles= .000925 cents per mile lubricated.
(add labor and disposal costs if you use CPO/F to the dealer x 2 intervals)
2. Synthetic oil @ 4.40 per qt x 2.5 qt x 1 interval of 20,000 miles +5.00 oil filter + .50 crush washer= $16.50/20,000 miles=.000825 cents per mile lubricated or conventional oil is 12% more costly.
(add labor and disposal costs if you use CPO/F to the dealer)
Two other scenario's are like you say; 3,000 and 5,000 miles oil and filter change intervals (OCI's). You can run the cost per mile lubricated.
(However a quick and dirty indicates a cost of 3.33 times to 2 times more costly).
( if you are not a DIY'er, you can insert your local cost per OCI, IF you like to bring customer provided oil to the dealers, you can add labor and disposal costs)
As you can see the cost/s and the percentage difference/s can be ALL over the place and staggering !!!!???
If it is not clear why I would for example chose synthetic oil @ 20,000 miles intervals, let me know.
As you can see the cost/s and the percentage difference/s can be ALL over the place and staggering !!!!???
C'mon really "staggering"?
"C'mon really "staggering"? "
Would you pay 12% more for a Honda Civic than say the going rate?
You are not afraid to do the math?
I just called my local Honda dealer. They want $40 to do the oil change. $30 with the coupon special. That is 3000 miles @.01/ 5000 miles @.006 cents per mile lubricated vs the synthetic @.000825 per mile lubricated in a prior post. The dealer's per mile lubricated is between 11 to 6.27 TIMES more costly.
I really have nothing against you paying 11 to 6.27 times more for essentially the same product/service (per mile lubricated)
I trust you all see the points (they remain the same) and can adjust the math accordingly?
I use Amsoil because I haven't found any oil in over 30 years that is much better. I use it for the convince, wear protection, improved performance and fuel economy, low volatility, oxidation stability, high temperature/high shear, high TBN, hot and cold engine performance, it's a PAO synthetic, and it exceeds the most stringent performance specifications of all major U.S. and foreign automotive and truck manufacturers.
With Amsoil I also have a choice of many differint lubricants to meet my needs. It was the world’s first API rated synthetic motor oil. They specialize exclusively in synthetic lubricant technology
I have always gotten 15,000 to 25,000 miles (one year) on an oil change. and double the life on my ATF. I always send a sample for analysis at every oil change so that I know how the oil and engine are performing.
I would not criticize anyone for not using a synthetic. I do have a problem with other oils in finding there data to make a good comparison. Why are they hiding their data? All oil companies have to perform the same standard tests to show they meet the minimum requirements.
As for the percentage difference, 12% of $20 is a bit less significant than 12% of $20,000.
My math is simple, it costs pretty much right around 2 times as much for me to pay someone to change my oil with synthetic as it does with conventional. Synthetic needs to be changed about 1/2 as often, so the cost is about the same either way.
(btw, I had misread your post...I thought you had come up with conventional being 12% cheaper)
The above quote might be one of the reasons why most of America does not see the forest for the trees. Now multiply that by 255.7 M vehicles; consuming 6.7 times more oil is using LESS oil ???!!!! It is also the operative view for example that says that 22 mpg is better than 50 mpg. :lemon: :shades:
Even with a more normal sized crankcase, say 5 quarts, changing oil even every 3000 miles in a vehicle with high mpg, say 30, you would be using 1.25 gallons for lubrication but 100 gallons for fuel in 3000 miles.
3000 miles divided by 101.25 gallons is 29.63 mpg (including lubrication). Going to 5000 miles would change that to 5000 divided by 167.92, which is 29.78 mpg...that is a 0.5% difference. Going to 10,000 mile OCI, results in 29.89 mpg (including lubrication) a 0.9% change from the 3000 mile OCI case and less than 0.4% improvement from the 5000 mile OCI.
First off, given specific data of that 3,750 miles interval, it is probably the "severe" interval. If so, follow the "normal" interval (tell me if it is 7,500 miles) . So for example on a 04 Civic, the severe interval is 5,000 miles, the normal interval is 10,000 miles.
Secondly, 0 to 3,000 miles (aka, new oil) presents the engine oxymoronically with the most aggressive wear patterns. This is simple to check out/verify. All you have to do is run a series of UOA's, and evaluate the total wear metals per 1000 miles. However, I have already in a past post cited a study that already does that. (why reinvent the wheel...?, so to speak)
"Bear in mind my intention is to prolong the engine".
So using your example of the 3,750 miles interval, that means you have app 750 miles or ONLY 20% run at the progressively lesser aggressive wear patterns. This means you have 80% of the mileage run at the most aggressive wear patterns.
Let's use a 100,000 miles requirement as an example. Which has the more wear aggressive miles: 4 OCI's @ 25,000 miles per interval or 27 OCI's @ 3,750 per interval?
OP/ED:
This is truly (my .02 cents) one STRONG reason why I use the synthetic oil @ 20,000 to 25,000 miles. So the progressively to sweet spot LEAST aggressive wear patterns) are @ 85%/88%.
So tell me,.... (percentage wise %) which do you think is...better?
Don't worry, the majority of Americans chose the MOST aggressive wear pattern cycle, defacto by changing oil every 3,000 miles !!!! This is the mileage when/where the wear patterns are THE most aggressive (zero to 3,000 miles) !!!
On the other hand, they declare/think/being told they are prolonging the engine.
So as you have pointed out and I would concur, cost per mile lubricated is really not the most important thing. It is secondarily, just a side benefit.
If I am being unclear, fire away.
Anecdotally, I inspected my camshaft wear on a VW Jetta TDI @ the 100,000 TB/WP interval. With 20,000 to 25,000 miles OCI's and at 100,000 miles, the camshaft still had original oem tool markings !!!!! It has app 75,000 miles till its next 100k TB/WP interval, which will be cumulatively 200,000 miles. I can let you know then the wear patterns of the camshaft.
Diester base oils are used in Amsoil compressors oils.
"The majority of AMSOIL synthetic lubricants are formulated with polyalphaolefin (PAO) synthetic base stocks. PAO base stocks offer unsurpassed protection and performance and are widely recognized as the industry's premier base stock technology. Unlike conventional base stocks, PAO base stocks contain fully saturated, hydrogenated molecules that are free of wax and impurities, allowing superior performance in temperature extremes, oxidation and acid resistance and clean operation. Synthetic oils formulated with less expensive synthetic base stocks also offer performance benefits over conventional oils, but they cannot match the performance of PAOs for the high standards required for AMSOIL synthetic motor oils."
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It is just that tdi folks are pretty passionate about the subject and go steps (as scientifically as they can) beyond the marketing craft that most oil vendors stop @.
There is a "TDI USED OIL LAB ANALYSIS RESULTS & DISCUSSION" and "TDI UOA DATA BASE" on www.tdiclub.com. You can do a search on that web site or go back to one of my prior posts for the links.
However, I can not see why you would really care. I really only use the site for the general purposes (on this site) of illustrating what I mean as most sites are really not as focused as the TDI'ers. It is not at the 40,000 miles straight and level attitude that Amsoil is KING of the UNIVERSE and all else bow down. It is really more in the trenches.
While I think Amsoil is a top quality oil and there are a few (TDIer's) folks that use it, other specified brands (CJ-4 specification, etc) test better (as measured) than Amsoil, including Shell's Rotella Synthetic, Total Quartz INEO, Mobil One (CJ-4)etc.
Since you have knowledge and access to doing UOA's, it would be simple for you to do a UOA at whatever intervals, up to and including 25,000 miles, i.e., 1000, 2000, 3000, 5000, 7000, 10,000, etc.
Again might I refer you to the SAE study link, I posted in an earlier post.
www.Bobistheoilguy.com is another more general oil topic site. There are a host of Amsoil sponsors that support and post there.
"While the elevation of wear indicators can lead someone to conclude that "wear" increases soon after the oil change process, this is an assumption."
(If you do a search for what I have quoted, you can read the rest of this person's comments)
In another place someone reported that:
"ExxonMobil does not believe for any reason performing quicker oil changes on an automobiles will cause increased wear in any way."
So would you say that Exxon Mobil would support your changing oil after every time you use the car? Or have you forgotten the days of OCI's of 1,500 miles to 3,000 miles? (not far from that!?) So from those intervals, ...3,000 miles to 5,000 is a super leap?
Or is that another way of saying 25,000 miles OCI's are just fine also? Again don't forget Mobil 1 is/has been a brand name of ... ExxonMobil. ..."It was introduced in 1974 as a 5w-20 viscosity synthetic motor oil"....1
At the introduction 35 years ago, the company was unambigious in saying OCI's of 25,000 miles? Keep in mind that was when RUG to PUG was DIRTY ?? With that clean up why not then @ least 25,000 miles? Did they dumb it down to match the clean up? :lemon:
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I think the truth as always been no matter what you decide (from 1,000 miles OCI's to 30,000 miles OCI's and above....) any vendor hopes you use... their products.
On a practical basis, I am glad I have @ least 2 cars that the oil and filter are designed for 30,000 miles OCI's. Since I am a belt and suspenders kind of guy I normally change @ 25,000 miles !!!
..."But its origins date back much further, to the invention of poly-alphaolefin
(PAO) at ExxonMobil's Pausboro,New Jersey Research Laboratories in
the late 1940s."...link title
Mobil One on the other hand (obviously) refines/manufactures their own PAO's Group IV. (Mississippi Plant). This should also be no surprise but ExxonMobil is also one the US's BIGGEST hydrocracked oil producer. (Castrol calls their hydrocracked products....synthetic)
Redline is rumored to get their (custome designed,aka spec'ed ) base stocks from HATCO.
I wasn't aware of this requirement...that any post had to explain to your satisfaction how it relates to whatever you have previously posted. :P
I posted to point out that your theory that new oil is bad for your engine does not appear to be a settled fact.
I do not change oil excessively frequently, but the idea that new oil somehow causes engine wear makes no logical sense and, therefore, I think there needs to be a pretty high burden of proof for this hypothesis. In addition, it would help to have some sensible explanation as to why this would occur. Finally, if this does occur, before this should become something to worry about, it would need to be determined if the extra wear is even significant...is it equivalent to 500 miles of driving, 5000, or what?
There are logical and sensible explanations as to why old oil becomes "bad" at some point in time. Whether that point is 5000 miles, 10,000, or 30,000 may be in question, but the fact that it should be changed at some point in time is a definite fact.
..."I posted to point out that your theory that new oil is bad for your engine does not appear to be a settled fact. "...
I did not say that new oil is bad for your engine. YOU said that I did. I did say that new oil presents the most aggressive wear patterns. Want proof? All you need do is run UOA's and be honest about the numbers. If I did it, you will have 1,000+ reasons why what I present is tainted. Or... perhaps that is why you changed the subject, as you are afraid the numbers might not fit what you have said in the above quote. Again, reference in a prior post the SAE study that outlines in more technical terms what I have obviously summarized. Specifically they cite that "oil with more miles " is 10-15% less aggressive. The so called sweet spot starting at 3,000 miles to 15,000 miles for test purposes. (and beyond)
..."There are logical and sensible explanations as to why old oil becomes "bad" at some point in time. Whether that point is 5000 miles, 10,000, or 30,000 may be in question, but the fact that it should be changed at some point in time is a definite fact. "...
I am glad you then agree with me. Like I said because I am a belt and suspenders kind of guy, 25,000 miles is when I do.
I am sure you would would further agree with me, that neither YOU nor I am in business of testing synthetic oil, nor make a living doing it.
I am like you, a consumer trying to balance the balances.
I am sure their customers made ExxonMobil sign non disclosure statements.
I also consider it a settled fact that people who make money producing and selling a product or service, will not spend much money or time finding ways to sell less of it, less often. Let alone in spreading the word about those ways. That's the role of the Forums - to help us find our own way.
Think of the instructions on many shampoo bottles: "Lather. Rinse. Repeat". The people that added that last word know the value of that word to their company's sales figures. The value to their customers' hair? Not so much.
I've been using nothing but synthetic motor oil since 1987. I spend far less time and money keeping my vehicles engines lubricated than I did before; I have never had an engine problem with any of the 11 vehicles I've had during that time; and I create less waste that we all pay to deal with. Now I'm doing 10,000 mile OCI's and still doing fine. This group of settled facts creates some burden of proof for others to deal with. To all those out there who do these UOA's and let us all in on the knowledge they's gained, I say THANKS. Keep it up.
Perhaps someone versed in the History of Am(z,s)oil can give us a nutshell version.
I think greater engine wear = "bad"?
Don't you? :confuse:
...is there any one who actually does that?
Upshot: when the valve cover is off and the camshaft is naturally exposed, you can inspect it and do whatever measurements deemed necessary.
The T/B W/P (timing belt & water pump) change is a normal scheduled maintenance item @ 100,000 miles intervals. Pulling the camshaft out is NOT part of that procedure. But however, the camshaft is EXPOSED when the valve cover is removed as a step in the procedure to do the T/B & W/P change. Further as part of another sequence in that over all procedure, the camshaft is rotated.
If you are interested, (not that you would be, given you probably don't have a Jetta TDI) there is a thread on doing the whole procedure on www.tdiclub.com . :shades:
The real point is that the camshaft was inspected by @ least 4 folks. So what I said about the camshaft showing original tool markings on the (high portions) of the lobes is not a guess.
Yes this 03 TDI is run on 20,000 to 25,000 miles OCI's. It currently has 122,000 miles.
That's unfortunate. I'd be curious to see what the cam bearings looked like.